This is something I've always wondered.
In this thread I am just referring to the somatic component of spells.
What does this actually look like? Is it a specific combination of rapidly and precisely used hand shapes like this?
Is it some kind of literal translation of words that complete the spell like some form of sign language? Such as a combination of shapes made with the hand that literally means "Fireball", for example?
Is it a universal, exact-for-each-spell, fluid movement of the hands/body that really has no particular meaning? In this example, there would really be no specific shape of the hand; just a set movement.
Is it a combination of any of these?
We often illustrate spellcasting with associated glowing magic runes in the air. Smell and sound is absolutely associated with spellcasting as well. It's not something you can do subtly . You need special class abilities or feats or other things to cast spells without showing yourself off. Spellcasting gives away your invisible location as much as shrieking while invisible does.In most media there are bells and whistles associated with the casting of most spells. Usually a whooshing sparkly colored glow.
Do you think that the casting of a spell might give away the location of the invisible spell caster?
I guessing it depends on the spell.
From "Ask James Jacobs"
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I think that's not really what he's wanting, Captain. He's asking specifically about somatic components.
Let's look at what the game says about somatic components just from the rules. I'll be focusing primarily on Arcane magic, then I'll touch on Divine a little at the end.
1. They are not small movements of only the hands. Armor spell failure is the big thing here. If it was just wiggling the fingers a bit, like your Naruto example, armor would rarely be an issue unless the caster was wearing gauntlets. But when even the lightest armor can interfere with spellcasting, you know you're dealing with something that involves, at the very least, a great deal of moving the arms and perhaps even the torso.
2. They are recognizable by those trained in the art.
and
3. They are not subtle.
Anyone who can see or hear the caster in the act of casting is allowed a Spellcraft check, even before the spell effect goes off, to identify the spell. This is most commonly seen in counterspelling, where the counterspeller with their readied action makes their Spellcraft as soon as the other caster starts casting, before the spell actually is completed, and can immediately start casting their counter. Having the spell Stilled, Silenced, or both does not remove this ability (unless the counterspeller cannot perceive the caster at all).
So what does this mean? This means that as soon as one caster hears another one chanting or sees them performing the somatic actions, they can quickly (< 1 second or so) identify the spell and, if ready to do so, prepare a magical rebuttal. This implies some level of logic, similarity, and predictability to those components - where if you've been educated in the practices of casting (read: have ranks in Spellcraft), you can identify the result by the actions that initiate it.
From those three things combined, I would say your second suggestion - comparing it to sign language or some other similar system - would be the most accurate. The reason I say that over the third option is because to people trained in magic, it DOES mean something when they wave a hand or perform a gesture in a specific way: it means "I am performing (insert spell here)." Even if it means nothing to someone who's uneducated in the art, it does to those who "understand" the language, same as what looks like just waving hands around and making gestures actually means words to someone who knows sign language.
The slight penalty for Specialist Wizards on Spellcraft checks to identify spells of their Opposition Schools is, therefore, very easy to rationalize: they've spent much less time studying those particular gestures due to their opposition, therefore they're not as familiar with them as they are their specialist school and more generalized other schools they have studied to a slightly less extent.
For divine magic: I imagine there's a slightly different set of gestures involved, given the ability of divine magic to ignore ASF, that are less extensive. That said, 2 and 3 still apply.
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From where I sit - it's one of several old fat dudes with a beer or wine or port in one hand dice in another saying, "I cast a fire ball." Then muttering something like "I need lots of sixes, come on dice be lucky" rolling a hand full of dice then yelling YES or S~*%.
From where I sit - it's one of several old fat dudes with a beer or wine or port in one hand dice in another saying, "I cast a fire ball." Then muttering something like "I need lots of sixes, come on dice be lucky" rolling a hand full of dice then yelling YES or S+&*.
o.O
FYI...I don't drink...
It's never been defined.
Part of the point of tabletop RPGs is that everything beyond the pure numbers is left entirely to the imagination: everyone can imagine it as something they think is really cool, unlike a video game, where the spellcasting graphic may look really cool to some, stupid to others, and boring to other still, depending on who you ask.
I imagine verbal components to spells as speaking in an ancient arcane tongue that has a visible effect on the environment as reality alters, much like Gandalf's lines of black speech in Rivendell.
Of course, if you want it to just be "wingardium leviosa!" and a flick of a wand, you're welcome to imagine it that way, too.
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More like this in my mind. Poetic, beautiful, horrifying.
I always imagined arcane casting as being very precise, practiced movements that incorporate the whole body. As Orthos mentioned, even the lightest of armors (barring silken ceremonial and haramaki, which are really more heavy clothing items than body armor) causes problems for arcane spell casters. If the movements of arcane spell casting can get interrupted by a small amount of restriction by wearing padded armor, chances are the movements of arcane spell casting need to be exact. Classes like the magus and bard who can cast in light armor probably employ more forgiving magic when it comes to gestures, given that these two classes are often needing to do multiple things at once with their hands.
When it comes to divine casters, I tend to think they use simple, large, and dramatic motions. Their magic isn't restricted by armor, so they are not as dependent on exact motion. Clerics are the exemplars of their faith, they channel their power in movements that are simple and inspire awe. They embody full contact magic, because a cleric isn't trying to be subtle; a cleric displays the true power of divinity.
However you want; that's just flavor text. I tend to visualize it as a point and a word, nothing too all-fired fancy.
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I like to think of Pathfinder Spellcasting like a mischievous badger.
I like to think of Pathfinder Spellcasting like a figure skater, who wears, like, a white outfit, and he does interpretive ice dances of my life's journey.
I like to think of Pathfinder Spellcasting like a muscular trapeze artist.
I like to think of Pathfinder Spellcasting like a dirty old bum. He's comin' up to me, and I'm 'bout to sock him, cause, you know, he's a dirty old bum, but then I say, "Wait a minute, there's something... I don't know, special about this guy."
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Something like how they were presented in Neverwinter Nights and the Dragonlance novels since those were my first exposures to D&D stuff. A few seconds worth of words and myriad gestures accompanied by visual effects dependent on the spell.
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However you want; that's just flavor text.Agreed.
Also, I feel that the actual actions could vary from culture to culture.
An Elven wizard would probably have a much more graceful set of movements than a Dwarven wizard.
A Iomedaen cleric from Cheliax would have a different style of spellcasting than one from Mendev.
It could be some fun and interesting roleplaying possibilities for characters to explore.
Indeed. I recall a PC who used origami for his animal summons; shape the paper appropriately and fling it, watch it turn into a real tiger.
Like This.
Actually, I think it would be more like this...
Great responses!
I like your example, Ravingdork, and yours too, Daethor.
Although I would agree it's probably better to leave a good amount of room for interpretation.
I've always seen it like this
Or thisI've got a sorcerer/monk that uses video game body motions for the spells (which are fluffed as Ch') Big arm circles ending in a double palm strike motion with yell of Hadoken for a fireball.
So like a combination of my first and third example?
Simple. Put hand in fist position. Extend thumb. Place thumb at end of nose. Point hand at target. Extend fingers, then wiggle them.
From where I sit - it's one of several old fat dudes with a beer or wine or port in one hand dice in another saying, "I cast a fire ball." Then muttering something like "I need lots of sixes, come on dice be lucky" rolling a hand full of dice then yelling YES or S+&*.o.O
FYI...I don't drink...
Several of us aren't fat (I am unfortunately) but we usually have, crackers, good cheese, beer, wine and port at the table.
I also think there may be a cultural aspect to it. The gestures are close to universal, but casters taught in one school may exaggerate the motions, creating sweeping gestures that have some "force" behind them to try to ensure accuracy, whereas others make the shapes in a manner that is tight and controlled, with precise angular motions. It's the same spell, looked at through slightly different lenses.Which is interesting when you consider sorcerers and other intuitive types. Do the correct words and movements just come to them instinctively? Or are they channeling the power without using the same words and gestures?
Of course, Spellcraft allows spells to be identified whoever is casting them, which suggests the mechanics are somewhat universal, unless the knowledgeable can actually see the magic in process.
I like to think of this way.
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I've always figured it looked something like this.
Somatic components that could reasonably be disrupted due to the wearing of any armor and uniquely visible to identification by someone who actually knows what they're looking at.
Include the withdrawing of any applicable material/focus components as necessary, speak the proper incantation, and boom! You have yourself a spell.
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I usually go along the lines of this but that may just be the nostalgia talking.
Whatever it is, I can assure you there is a lot of hand waving going on.
Thanks to some painfully dorky trinket-text rules that have somehow managed to never get excised from the game, for a lot of casters it involves rooting around in your pockets for bat turds and stuff. Really awesome visuals, there.
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Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials...
Magic spells didn't look like anything until practitioners started up all the 'component' shenanigans to make themselves look mysterious and powerful; All this ridiculous handwaving, mumbling, and fiddling about with bits of old rubbish is pure charlatanry. That nonsense is just training wheels on a submarine.
Who is to blame for this state of affairs? Look first to the long-suffering Archmagus, sending his apprentice out to collect the black fringe from each mushroom growing on a tree with two wren nests and a broken branch no more than 15 feet from the ground. That guy just needs a few hours of peace and quiet. He's the guy that would ask you to bring him a bucket of propwash.
Look second to his failed apprentices, who eventually tired of ridiculous quests to collect the tears from the right eye of an albino bat weighing no more than one-half ounce but not more than three, (with one toe broken while in flight), and gave up on becoming wizards. Because those guys can see the idiot out on his mushroom hunt coming from a mile off, and will be more than happy to sell him "mushroom fringe" by the ounce for good gold coin. The fact that he gets it from the slops pile behind the tavern shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
Who started this 'verbal component' chicanery? Again, our poor beset Archmagus should be the first culprit to examine. Should we expect him to sit and watch his inept apprentice practice and miserably fail to do so much as light a tiny spark, over and over, for months, when instead he can send the apprentice into another room and simply have to listen for a prolonged silence to inform him that his imbecilic student has, yet again, fallen asleep when he should have been working?
Why do spells take so long to cast? You didn't think that there was really such a thing as a 'quickened spell', did you? What wizard in his right mind would teach a future rival in his quest for ultimate power how to create balls of fire from thin air without keeping back just a little of his knowledge, ensuring that he would always be faster? There are no quickened spells, only slowed wizardlings.
You want the dirty, devious, underhanded truth about why casting a spell looks like anything at all? Here it is, but keep it under your hat:
There are no spell-like abilities...there are only ability-like spells.
I usually go along the lines of this but that may just be the nostalgia talking.
Whatever it is, I can assure you there is a lot of hand waving going on.
YAAAAAYYYYY!!! Fire Emblem!
So far, we have references to:
Family Guy, Fire Emblem, Naruto, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Sleeping Beauty, Marvel comics, Neverwinter Nights, and Harry Potter.
I love you guys...
A lot of D&D spells were apparently based on things that the wizards in the 1963 horror film "The Raven" did. Most of the on-screen magic happens in this scene.
So there you have it, folks. The original somatic components. Want to fly? Just flap your hands like little wings...
(Should watch a clip I'm linking to the end. The original link doesn't have the full duel... Updated with a better one. See how many D&D spells you can recognize!)
For the Kaidan setting by Rite Publishing, the wizard (onmyoji archetype) uses the folding of origami for his somatic spell components and for all material components of 5 gp or less in value, that bursts into flames when cast for some oriental flair.
It's like this.
My interpretation of how somatic components look has always been taken from how Magus moves when casting his spells. Simple spells may take little more than a gesture of the arm while more complex ones can look intricate enough to be a dance.
On an unrelated note, busting out the moves from Dark Eternal does not make you look cool on the dance floor.
I always liked the interpretation that each caster has a different way of performing somatic components, but that they generally share traits, and have identifying factors for other magic users to see.
One possible interpretation that I've always liked was summoning up or drawing images on the air, like this guy. I've got a character for whom I imagine their magic as looking similar to the display "screens" that Infinity uses in their art, or something like the holographic controls in Pacific Rim.
With everything written in Draconic or just some sort of arcane script, probably.
I always liked the interpretation that each caster has a different way of performing somatic components, but that they generally share traits, and have identifying factors for other magic users to see.
One possible interpretation that I've always liked was summoning up or drawing images on the air, like this guy. I've got a character for whom I imagine their magic as looking similar to the display "screens" that Infinity uses in their art, or something like the holographic controls in Pacific Rim.
With everything written in Draconic or just some sort of arcane script, probably.
There was an anime called The Sacred Blacksmith that had some cool "drawing in the air" type spellcasting like you describe. The Oh My Goddess! movies also featured floating runes.
The Inner Sea World Guide cover gives you a good idea of what it looks like.
Kind of like Cyberpunk hacking, but with runes instead of code around your hands.
