Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I have largely lost interest in MMORPGs. I still play Wow every now and again, but I have largely lost interest in the game.
I have largely lost interest because of the never ending gear grind: always working for better gear. I guess what did it for me was the change from one expansion to another. I guess it is now about 4 years ago I was playing Wow almost 8 hours a day. This was during the Wrath of the Litch King expansion. I diligently worked for six months, going on weekly raids, and accumulated my "frost badges' to get some spiffy purple armor for my paladin. Then a couple of weeks later the Cataclysm expansion came out, and the "Green" gear i was picking up was better then my hard earned purple gear. I was not happy. I guess that is just how things go.
I also got tired of quests only having one solution to solve them....
I also became disinterested in MMOs because of expectation that I found amongst players that you research and know how to do a quest instance etc before you do it....you are expected to have it memorized. There isn't any room for trial and error.
I have a couple of buddies that I go do questing with, every now and again and I guess the fun I have, largely comes from "hanging out' with them. A couple of weeks ago, we went through an area in "panda land", and they helped me quest. One of my friends had warrior of some sort, I had my Frost mage named Otiluke, and my other friend had a dwarven priest. We raced from one location to another. One of my friends had been through this area 27 times, so we raced from exclamation point to exclamation point. Often I would miss some key bit, like missing one last thing to kill, or not talking to someone, and my friends patently took me back to the thing i missed which I was greatefull for. However, I don't feel I was absorbing the story. Perhaps that was my fault, and I should have taken the time to read....but I didn't want to inconvenience my friend. anyways....we did have a good time.
I will give Wow credit for writing an interesting story that I enjoy taking part in while I quest. I think they do a good job at that.
I Contrast my experience playing with my buddies online, with the Pathfinder Society Organized Play game I just played last night. We were playing the Eyes of the Ten Series, the Level 12 retirement arc. I have known the GM for a couple of years, and he is an excellent GM. All of the players at the table, likewise I have known for a couple of years, and we have played together as well. I consider them all friends. We had a great time last night. The game was challenging, the story interesting, and we had to pull together as a team, and use lots of creativity to survive. We had lots of fun and afterwards talked about the game after the game store was shut.
I felt I had a much richer and more enjoyable experience playing that Pathfinder game with friends in person then i did with my other friends online on Wow.
I am not sure what the solution for MMO games is or if it is even possible to replicate the experience of a table top game, but it does seem they arn't quite as popular as they used to be.
So I am willing to give Pathfinder Online a chance, but I do have serious reservations about the game. I am looking for an experience similar to my pathfinder table top games, where we as players work together as a team towards various goals.
I never had any interest in the PVP side of WoW. I never will. I had enjoyed the questing PVE side of the game. I guess my biggest worry is that with the non consentual PVP core of Pathfider online, you will replicate the Machiavellian atmosphere EVE online is famous for.
Anyways, I am willing to give Pathfinder Online a try to see how I like it.
Goblin Squad Member
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Touche' - I suppose exceptions do exist. Speaking in the roleplay sense, however, we do not have many wanting to play The Joker.The romanticism is not about those who want to watch the world burn...I daresay part of The Dark Knight's success was due to people's romanticizing of Heath Ledger's Joker, who just wanted to watch the world burn.There would be if they wouldn't mechanically suck. I could see playing a character that is Chaotic Evil and even low rep, but to do it with flare.
If we were able to leave a "calling card" item behind, I would have played a Jack The Ripper type.
Instead I'll have to settle killing while wearing a Green Hat or killing those that wear a green hat.
I suppose a flare is one way to set the world to burning...
But you miss the point. @$$#@+ = suck, inevitably. Either you're free to be one and you make the game suck for others, or the devs put in rules to make the game suck for the @$$#@+$. It is in their financial interests to keep the larger group, and since there's no good way to make punishments significant in a game where you can simply log off and go elsewhere (whether by choice or banning) you'll be wearing your prison in the form of mechanical restrictions. Chaotic Evil is the worst at working together, and in a game where your power relies upon working with others to build & maintain community projects, those who do so poorly will have less power.
If you want to be a villain with flair (or a flare) then be LE or NE and join a LE or NN community. You can express yourself as a psychopath if you like, because the game can only measure your actions, not your sense of identity or motives. If the word "Chaotic" is really important to you, type it into your biography 100 times.
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Without question the biggest factor right now is the cost of graphics. Not only do MMOs have a voracious appetite for graphics but the fans expect that new games keep up with the best quality of the current generation or go beyond it. That created a feedback loop that pushed the cost from $10 million per game to $100 million per game, and now $200 million plus for Star Wars and Elder Scrolls.
Those prices are unsustainable at current levels of engagement. That's why there are no "WoW" style AAA MMOs in development after Elder Scrolls and WildStar.
It will be an uphill battle every day with Pathfinder Online to get people to look past the graphics and see the game.
I'm sorry, but as someone who has played MMO's for a long time, I'm going to tell you my opinion on this.
The decline of MMOs is not due to fans expecting greater graphics. The competition for greater graphics is in the minds of the creators.
Gunz (a FPS with melee combat and adventure modes) looked like crap, but is far superior to Gunz 2 in many ways, as the second game became focused on how characters should look instead of how they should act or what options they should have. In the same way, though I could be playing the Elder Scrolls beta right now, I am not. This is not because it doesn't look nice, but because of poor mechanics and lack of options and character choice.
I don't want to have to buy a new computer every six months so I can play a pretty game. I want to use my computer to play a game with many options and good combat mechanics. Are your teams as big and your money spent as much for activities, customization, and game mechanics?
I would have continued to play Shadowbane for years had they continued to update and had put in place something to prevent guilds from taking over entire servers. I would still be playing Gunz off and on had the company not changed their focus to RaiderZ and Gunz 2. I do play Path of Exile as a go to online game when I'm bored and it kind of looks like a pile of dog crap sometimes (I do tend to turn graphics down in newer games instead of up for a smoother gameplay experience). I'd pay monthly for it if it loaded well and allowed for more types of activities. And I'd be playing a tabletop instead of either if they were something I could generate at a moments notice with a rotating party. I will gladly pay monthly for developers to work on mechanics for a game I like, but get upset when I find it's just a new graphics patch or slight PvP re-balancing.
You don't want your game to look horrible, I understand, but I'm also not interested in the "prettiest" game. I want one I'll come back to for the game, not to look at the scenery.
Edit: I realize after posting that Mr. Dancey is, in fact, stating a hope for the game to not look the prettiest but for people to still play it. I should perhaps not skim as much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't recall any official statement about boats.there was statement that boats (not even ships) would be after OE.
Not saying it didn't happen, just that I haven't been able to find it.
Ryan has exactly one post where he uses the word "boat", and he's talking about Fast Travel in WoW. None of the other devs (Lee, Stephen, Tork, Andrew, Mike) have any posts that even use that word.
It's more difficult when I search for "ship" because Ryan has lots of posts that either talk about Ships in EVE, or about shipping products to customers. But even going over those, I don't see anything.
If you recall hearing it, though, then my guess is that Ryan responded to someone else without actually using the words himself. He's done that a few times. It's going to take a clean sweep of all of his posts someday to find all of those and catalog them. But not today :)
My recollection is that he was responding to others and said it would not be part of EE. This was in the Paizo.com forum and not in the goblin works blog. Nihimon is right, we need to mine the forum to have near work search. That is too big for me to imagine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Edit: I realize after posting that Mr. Dancey is, in fact, stating a hope for the game to not look the prettiest but for people to still play it. I should perhaps not skim as much.
I think it is a real issue with mmorpgs that to create a fantasy landscape world and require life-like avatars as the thresholds for our immersion are higher (ie more needs to be visually represented and highly convincing) atst as simulated eg (weather and seasons to make the land non-static that then feeds growing seasons and/or mob migrations etc etc). The problem is doubly visual quality and physics simulation underlying the world being harder in 3d graphics and with more players/mobs on screen.
Goblinworks emphasis during EE will be systems which I think is the only way to go if they can manage to get the graphics to a sufficient level of acceptance before focusing on the systems. Chicken-and-egg once the systems are a lot better, graphics become less important but atst with more players enjoying the game then GW probably has more resources to spend on graphics, it would seem! You're going to get a lot of visually impressive mmorpgs from the East and elsewhere using very potent engines that look visually "stunning" and again as each new mmorpg comes out the graphics arms race and likely actiony-combat are visually arresting on the surface. Hopefully PFO can provide much more breadth however to actually cover the world in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey, I hate comparing to WoW but they don't exactly have the top-tier graphics, so I don't think graphics are going to be a problem for most people.
As long as the gameplay is solid and you can tell visually what is going on with some sense of smoothness I think we will be more than fine. Especially since we are going to be leagues above wow (fingers crossed maybe. not sure how I feel about that many people in-game here)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey, I hate comparing to WoW but they don't exactly have the top-tier graphics, so I don't think graphics are going to be a problem for most people.
As long as the gameplay is solid and you can tell visually what is going on with some sense of smoothness I think we will be more than fine. Especially since we are going to be leagues above wow (fingers crossed maybe. not sure how I feel about that many people in-game here)
Agreed. It is hard to know for sure, but the graphics that we have already seen look good enough if you stay in the same "zone" and improve. Iterate on the animations and some other little things and they will be plenty good for myself. I realize that I probably don't know enough to speak for any majority.
Good systems and gameplay is priority one! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Take a gander at the comments our most recent videos have received on Massively and MMORPG, and then come back and tell me that graphic quality is not being used as a proxy by the wider gaming audience for "quality of product".
You have cast uncut/unpolished jewels before short sighted people. It is not your fault that all they can see are "rocks". If the gameplay is great AND the graphics slowly improve, you will grow nice and steady/controlled, as you intended.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is sad that pre-alpha footage is judged on graphics, but I guess that will be happening anyway.
The scepsis about a new MMO that is reaching for such heights of innovation will be harder to combat imo: and that is understandable.
When I look at the list of game-systems and features that are planned for OE and directly after, bewilderment and despair sometimes sets in. And I am not even the one developing it. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Pax Charlie George
Nope: I'm fairly sure most of the time Graphics as first impressions drive negative comments without reference to any MVP. MVP when mentioned comes in the form of "paying for beta - zomg!" It's usually separate from graphics comments by random commentators.
And that is backed up if you look at the graphics of EQ-Landmark, Deliverance and even Gloria Victus (which has big chunky forests with actiony combat). By comparison PFO definitely looks more diminished and hence the comments on "this looks 1999" etc.
As said I think over time it evens out, but the initial reaction with comparitive egs of other mmo engines to really put on a graphics show (other eastern mmos using engine 4.0 Unreal/cry etc) is definitely going to put PFO in the shade visually. People won't balance or look at features past writing off based off graphics seems a fairly safe bet for a lot of people or decide "if the graphics are not good then it's unlikely the features are good either".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reading through the comments on Pathfinder Online Videos: Gameplay Footage Spotlights Q3 Development (3:27) at mmorpg.com and GoblinWorks releases Pathfinder Q4 backer update video at massively.com, I'm starting to wonder if Ryan just wanted us to see that there's actually a lot of positive support for the game as well :)
Hi, I was reading this thread when I realized I have a question to ask about PFO.
What's the real difference between it and another MMO?
I have been a fervent MMO player ever since the beta of WoW, but I have stopped playing online games about 3 years ago.
I have nonetheless picked up D&D and PFRPG and have been loving it during the last year.
People seem to hold the view that PFO will be different than other MMOs, can you please help me understand why?
I must say I haven't been very immersed in trying to see how PFO works but from what I've seen it seems a bit like (excuse my being harsh) a remake from every MMO that's ever been made, with no awesome graphics to back it up or very innovative combat system.
So please enlighten me, what would make PFO different from the other games?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hi, I was reading this thread when I realized I have a question to ask about PFO.
What's the real difference between it and another MMO?
I have been a fervent MMO player ever since the beta of WoW, but I have stopped playing online games about 3 years ago.I have nonetheless picked up D&D and PFRPG and have been loving it during the last year.
People seem to hold the view that PFO will be different than other MMOs, can you please help me understand why?
I must say I haven't been very immersed in trying to see how PFO works but from what I've seen it seems a bit like (excuse my being harsh) a remake from every MMO that's ever been made, with no awesome graphics to back it up or very innovative combat system.So please enlighten me, what would make PFO different from the other games?
Certainly, I can try to help you out. My first bit of advice: the graphics and the combat system will not be places to look for the "cool new thing" which makes the game different. If we're being very honest, the graphics and the style of combat have in fact been done and redone, as you say; everybody tries to innovate in graphics or combat systems, so it is a difficult task to get a game which can shine apart from the competition in these areas.
If you go to this link, which is the Goblinworks website, there's a list they've done up of features for the game. If you want to get to the cool and intriguing bits (in my opinion at least) you'll skip the character bits and read on the economy and social structures.
Basically, the thing that sets this MMO apart is how you play the game. You'll always be working with other people, depending on others for every aspect of your game. It's more a game about interacting with other players in many different ways, rather than a game about interacting with set pieces the developers have put in front of you. There's more to it, but this is the fundamental part of the game which is different from the majority of games out there right now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So please enlighten me, what would make PFO different from the other games?
The things that I personally find exciting about PFO are the things which I see being done to address the serious problems I have with most MMOs.
I'm sick to death of:
1. Grinding up levels through quest content with stories that I don't even bother to read because they're so hackneyed and cookie-cutter.
2. Not being able to play with my friends because they're not the right level.
3. Having to do very boring, very tedious things in-game to "earn" new skills or abilities.
4. Not being able to mix-and-match skills the way I see my Character.
5. Hitting a brick wall of character development where the only thing left is to grind Raids to get better gear, and hope the devs are able to produce the new content fast enough that my whole guild doesn't quit before the next expansion is out.
And to a lesser extent:
6. PvP against Characters who are literally invincible to an infinite number of lower-level Characters.
Some games have made passable attempts at solving #2, but for the most part the industry as a whole has simply accepted the rest and doesn't even bother trying to innovate new solutions to those problems.
So, the things that really stand out - for me, personally - about Pathfinder Online are:
1. Real-time XP gain frees me up to spend my game time doing things that are fun or that achieve my meta-goals.
2. Focus on player-player interaction means I'm not going to be challenged by smart, adaptive opponents. It also means groups will be free to include whomever they want, regardless of "level".
3. Unlimited character development means I can broaden my character's skill set and keep playing him forever, all the while never reaching that point of being invincible.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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There are parts of the graphic package already deployed in Pathfinder Online that I think are very cutting edge and excellent. The way the light interacts with the clothing the characters wear, for example, is excellent.
The gear itself is not just a texture map on top of a fixed model either. The gear is it's own object and different types of gear will look physically different as opposed to just being a flat texture painted on a static shape.
That's really subtle stuff though and you have to be zoomed in quite close to really be able to see it.
We have more than adequate shadows and lighting, certainly as good as you'll find in most current-gen MMOs. It may not be Unreal on max-settings level quality, but that's a market we're not trying to cater to anyway.
The animations need work. Right now we're replacing the animation system in Unity with a 3rd party tool. Once that is done I think they'll all look much better. The actual animation data itself is much better than what the current client renders. The difference between what it looks like in the tool the animator uses to make it, and what it looks like in-game is big. That's why we're investing in a replacement. Even so we have a limited animation budget. We have to do an animation for every race, in two genders, so the matrix of animations that need to be produced is massive. This stuff isn't done via mocap or kinesthetics. It's an artist who moves the rig of the model "just so" to get the effects we want. The amount of time required for animations means we will start with a limited selection and add more over time, but the pace we can add more is dictated to some extent by how much money we are able to raise above our current budget baseline. At some point, after a few other high-priority issues are addressed, we could consider adding more staff to increase our animation output. But there will still be people who are used to seeing the results of a dozen-person animation staff, and they're unlikely to get that in Pathfinder Online.
Some other aspects of the game are more subject to improvement within our existing time & budget constraints. We have the environment dialed back quite a bit right now because we have not done much optimization work either on the objects themselves or on how the client renders them. As we get more performance out of the game we can think about increasing the density of the environment too. A lot of that has to happen as a series of iterations once we have a more-complete client and have had time to work on reducing and simplifying the graphic assets without losing the aesthetic quality we're looking to achieve.
That's a very long winded way of saying that we are going to be coping with "this game's graphic sux, so the game must sux too" for a long while.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think one of the biggest graphical considerations is 'Smoothness of animation'. It will be problematic if that is our main graphical weakness. Lighting, texture and model resolutions, those are all important. But I personally feel that a majority of people will forgive a lower-res model/texture (within reason) more readily than they will a weak animation system.
Why is this? Action psychology. When a model looks a little lacking, it can be written off as inconsequential. The player's role is to make the character act. Thus if the character animations look clunky, players will automatically also assume that the controls are clunky because their actions are not being translated well from their commands to what occurs on the screen. A poor animation is viewed as an active hindrance to a player's ability to act.
Ultimately, the animations do not need to be complex - at least to start. They need to be smooth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From everything that I see in pre-alpha video, the animations need work... but that is something that GW has already identified and are working towards fixing. That's good enough for me.
In my experience, you don't see this much pre-alpha footage. Compared to other pre-alpha and even alpha footage, it's clean. It may not be as crisp as what people are expecting but I think the context in which they are judging the footage is off. In the pre-alpha context, GW is looking great and I cannot wait to see more.
In the end, people are going to complain about stuff. People complain about how a game has great graphics but the game play sucks. I'd play the game with the graphics it has right now if the functionality was there.
Functionality is what matters to me at this point. Graphics can be revised once the revenue is there to prioritize it. A game that looks great but sucks will get old quick. Graphics lacking but game play making up for it will take you longer at the end of the day.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Take a gander at the comments our most recent videos have received on Massively and MMORPG, and then come back and tell me that graphic quality is not being used as a proxy by the wider gaming audience for "quality of product".You have cast uncut/unpolished jewels before short sighted people. It is not your fault that all they can see are "rocks". If the gameplay is great AND the graphics slowly improve, you will grow nice and steady/controlled, as you intended.
I don't expect the graphics to improve. Additional customization options might show up, but I expect the artwork that currently exists to not get upgraded in the first three years.
EDIT: The animations might improve, but not the basic graphics engine nor the terrain nor the existing character rig.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Take a gander at the comments our most recent videos have received on Massively and MMORPG, and then come back and tell me that graphic quality is not being used as a proxy by the wider gaming audience for "quality of product".You have cast uncut/unpolished jewels before short sighted people. It is not your fault that all they can see are "rocks". If the gameplay is great AND the graphics slowly improve, you will grow nice and steady/controlled, as you intended.I don't expect the graphics to improve. Additional customization options might show up, but I expect the artwork that currently exists to not get upgraded in the first three years.
EDIT: The animations might improve, but not the basic graphics engine nor the terrain nor the existing character rig.
Haven't they already said that they will likely be doing more with the terrain/foliage at least?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Take a gander at the comments our most recent videos have received on Massively and MMORPG, and then come back and tell me that graphic quality is not being used as a proxy by the wider gaming audience for "quality of product".
Of course, but it's a video, graphics are all they have to judge by. They're going to see something that looks about like LotRO and assume it's just another generic MMO trying to ride the popularity of its IP to the bank. They're not going to understand that you're trying for a very different gameplay experience rather than another variant of the EQ/WoW treadmill-powered grindstone model.