RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hello, all! Someone recently asked me to write them a 1-page summary of how light and darkness effects work. But I figure if I'm writing it anyway, I may as well post it here, just in case more than one person can get some use out of it. :)
Part 1 – Forget about countering and dispelling
One of the most frequent errors I see when people try to adjudicate light and darkness spells is the misapplication of this line from the end of darkness:
Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Simply put, if you think this line (or the similar line from light, etc) is going to matter in most cases, then you don't know what it means. There's a mechanic in game by which spells with opposite effects can be cast as dispels/counters against each other; see also bless/bane, cause fear/remove fear, haste/slow, etc.
But that's something that happens when you cast such a spell, not when you bring their areas together. And since just about every light or darkness spell in the game has a range of "touch", casting them as counters/dispels is almost always laughably infeasible. For more information on using opposites as counters/dispels, see this FAQ, but that's outside the scope of this topic. The important thing here is that the "counters and dispels" line in light/darkness spells is not part of how the overlap of their areas works. It is something completely separate. Strike it from your mind.
Part 2 – When the lights go out
Okay, so the usual situation is that the PCs are wandering around a dungeon or whatever, carrying torches or active light spells so they can see, and then a baddie casts darkness. What actually happens?
There are two things that happen within the area of darkness:
This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness.
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Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Okay, so the light level is dropped one step, and also your light sources (except for higher-level magical ones) can't increase the light level. What does this mean, practically speaking?
As clarified in this FAQ, it's basically a two-step process:
1) Default to "the ambient natural light level (the light level from natural sources, such as the sun, moon, and stars—not torches, campfires, light spells, and so on)".
2) Once you've established the remaining light level, drop it one step (or two, in the case of deeper darkness).
That's really all there is to it. Practically speaking, the net result is that unless the party is out in the sunlight ("natural" light level of normal or bright light), the light level after darkness will always be "dark". If you're in a dark dungeon or a room dimly lit by sunlight trickling in through the windows, you're going to shut off whatever light sources the PCs brought (reverting the area to the naturally-occurring dark or dim conditions) and then drop it by a step to "dark".
Part 3 – Take it to eleven fourth
So in most practical application, whenever the lighting is dim enough that the PCs would actually bring light sources, darkness is going to "win". However, there was an escape clause in the text cited above: magical light sources of a higher spell level.
Unfortunately, most light spells are pretty low-level, and darkness spells are 2nd (normal) or 3rd (deeper). The highest-level light spell is daylight at 3rd, but it's got its own issues that we'll take a look at later. After that is continual flame, which trips a lot of people up.
Continual flame is on both the sorcerer/wizard spell list and the cleric spell list. As a sorc/wiz spell, it's 2nd-level, but as a cleric spell it's 3rd-level. This makes a big difference. Since darkness is a 2nd-level spell, this means that a wizard's continual flame won't contribute in the area of darkness but a cleric's will. This gets even more important when you consider that magic items (like an everburning torch or ioun torch) and spell-like abilities (like a certain variant aasimar's 1/day continual flame) typically assume the sorc/wiz version rather than the cleric version. (I say "typically" because your GM might allow you to buy a special cleric-made version if you ask nicely.) As a result, your off-the-shelf everburning torch or continual flame SLA will never lighten the area of a darkness effect.
However, there's still an option: Heighten Spell. A spell modified by the Heighten Spell metamagic feat is treated as a higher-level spell; therefore, if you Heighten your continual flame (or other light spell, but CF is the best for this) up to at least 4th level, then it will always be a higher spell level than any (non-Heightened) darkness effect, and will therefore continue to shed light in such an area.
Part 4 – Daylight is special
Now that we've covered the overall rules for darkness and light, it's time to mention daylight. It has its own special little rule in its spell description text:
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Note that this line cares nothing of spell levels or any other variables. If there's a daylight spell active, and there's a magical darkness effect active, and they're overlapping; both effects are negated in the overlap. The light level reverts back to what it would be if neither were present. This is not a part of the overall rules for light and darkness—it is specific to daylight. Lots of people miss that distinction.
Anyway, the important part of daylight as an answer to darkness effects is that in the overlapping area, it's not shedding its usual bright light; it's doing its special mutual-negation thing. So if you want that area to be anything other than the natural ambient light, you're going to need additional light sources.
Basically, daylight alone doesn't solve your lighting issues; it enables your other solutions to function.
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That's darkness and light as they currently stand; hopefully it's helpful, and if not, at least I had something to do on my lunch break. :)
Awesome. Love that you've included all of the subtleties of the interactions. Kudos, fantastic guide.
Very helpful. Thanks.
That's a huge help, Jiggy. It's interesting to know that a level 2 Darkness is just as much a counter to Daylight as a Level 3 Deeper Darkness.
(Edited with Jiggy's correction. Wasn't paying attention. Bad Myst, bad!)
Very nice, thanks for this!
Part 1 – Forget about countering and dispelling
One of the most frequent errors I see when people try to adjudicate light and darkness spells is the misapplication of this line from the end of darkness:
Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.Simply put, if you think this line (or the similar line from light, etc) is going to matter in most cases, then you don't know what it means. There's a mechanic in game by which spells with opposite effects can be cast as dispels/counters against each other; see also bless/bane, cause fear/remove fear, haste/slow, etc.
One thing I would add is while counterspelling is laughable as you mention you and another person would have to be touching the same object.
Dispeling on the other hand is a little easier. If you can find the object that had darkness or light cast on it, you can cast the opposite on the same object and it will dispel.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Dispeling on the other hand is a little easier. If you can find the object that had darkness or light cast on it, you can cast the opposite on the same object and it will dispel.
Yes, if you can stumble around blinded and find the correct object (probably a piece of gear on the NPC who cast the darkness spell), touch it (probably requiring a touch attack, if it's indeed on an attended object), beat the 50% miss chance from being effectively blinded, and be using a light spell of equal or higher level (though if it's higher level, you'd be better off just casting it normally, so really this all only applies if it's exactly the same level), you could dispel the darkness effect.
Yay?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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One thing you may want to include; by default rules, how easy it is to see (and hit) something is based on the light conditions at the location of what you're trying to look at, not where you happen to be standing. So if you're standing on a hill on a cloudy night (ambient level "dark") you can still see a campfire in the valley; it's literally lit up for you to see. A lot of people think that, if you're standing in darkness, you can't see anything, not even the person approaching you holding a torch until they suddenly "render" into existence when their torch illuminates you. You'll see them long before they see you.
The purpose of this post was to deal with the interactions of light and darkness effects. "What it's like to be outdoors at night" is outside that scope, and my "summary" is long enough as it is. ;)
Dispeling on the other hand is a little easier. If you can find the object that had darkness or light cast on it, you can cast the opposite on the same object and it will dispel.Yes, if you can stumble around blinded and find the correct object (probably a piece of gear on the NPC who cast the darkness spell), touch it (probably requiring a touch attack, if it's indeed on an attended object), beat the 50% miss chance from being effectively blinded, and be using a light spell of equal or higher level (though if it's higher level, you'd be better off just casting it normally, so really this all only applies if it's exactly the same level), you could dispel the darkness effect.
Yay?
LoL exactly! Just wanted to point it out as you made it sound like it could not be done. I find it funny to picture a caster stumbling with their hands out looking/sensing the item only to find that it is on the enemy you could not see :) Blindsight would be useful in this case.
One thing you may want to include; by default rules, how easy it is to see (and hit) something is based on the light conditions at the location of what you're trying to look at, not where you happen to be standing. So if you're standing on a hill on a cloudy night (ambient level "dark") you can still see a campfire in the valley; it's literally lit up for you to see. A lot of people think that, if you're standing in darkness, you can't see anything, not even the person approaching you holding a torch until they suddenly "render" into existence when their torch illuminates you. You'll see them long before they see you.The purpose of this post was to deal with the interactions of light and darkness effects. "What it's like to be outdoors at night" is outside that scope, and my "summary" is long enough as it is. ;)
I believe there is a lengthy thread about this somewhere. I remember seeing it a couple months back.
Awesome, Jiggy. Had this very same debate come up in a game this past weekend. This is really clear and easy to understand.
Even with the table/gm variation outlined near the end, there are still clear steps you can take (in PFS and non-PFS) in order to combat both Darkness and Deeper Darkness and your post helps to understand what to do.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Even with the table/gm variation outlined near the end, there are still clear steps you can take (in PFS and non-PFS) in order to combat both Darkness and Deeper Darkness and your post helps to understand what to do.
In general, my advice is to always carry an oil of daylight and a potion of darkvision. Between the two of them you're pretty well set as long as your GM is at least reasonably close with his/her adjudications of these effects.
Thank you for making such a helpful guide! :)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Got a question for you was going to put this in its own thread but this seems appropriate. Can darkeness block daylight?
That is there's a creature in continual pain from daylight filtering down from a cavern entrance above its head if you cast darkness on that entrance does it stop the daylight entering into the cavern as the light needs to pass through the spell area to reach the main cavern or only dim it in the area its cast on with the light returning to normal levels on the other side?
This is normal daylight not magical.
This FAQ might help.
I've never seen anything about having to touch the object during a counterspell. Have I been doing this wrong?
[u]An alternative approach to light and darkness[/u]
Darkness was always a murky subject. Then it was clarified in a FAQ to work as Jiggy describes above: Only starlight counts. Once you're shielded from the skies, Darkness always creates an area of darkness that can only be defeated with a Daylight spell, and Deeper Darkness always creates Supernatural Darkness.
I do not like the consequences and implications of that way of doing things, and I believe that my method produces more appropriate results with no extra work. I call it "Darkness applies last"
What you do is, you take the light level in place before the darkness happened (normal light for a party carrying torches and/or light spells), then apply darkness. You end up at dim light from a regular Darkness spell in most circumstances.
If you light a torch or cast a light spell, or bring one into the area of darkness, it's not going to change anything, as the spell says - because "Darkness applies last". Adding normal light to an area of normal light produces normal light - reduced to dim light by Darkness.
Edit: Re-reading Jiggy's guide and discovering that the whole thing is still a bloody mess.
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I've never seen anything about having to touch the object during a counterspell. Have I been doing this wrong?
This varies depending on the spell you are using to do the counterspell.
Light, Continual Flame, Daylight, etc. are all touch range spells, so to counterspell, you need to touch the same object as the darkness/deeper darkness is being cast oin. And vice versa, since those are touch spells, as well.
Dispel magic has an actual range, so it can be used to counterspell up to its maximum range of effect.
Using a fireball to counterspell a fireball would apply within the range of the two fireballs, etc.
Note: If the counterspeller has a reach continual flame prepared, then he could counterspell a darkness/deeper darkness cast within that close range.
And, as mentioned, against many monsters who can use darkness or deeper darkness effects, counterspell is a bad idea, since that burns up your spell and does not prevent them from using their (probably) at will ability the next round.
I've never seen anything about having to touch the object during a counterspell. Have I been doing this wrong?This varies depending on the spell you are using to do the counterspell.
Light, Continual Flame, Daylight, etc. are all touch range spells, so to counterspell, you need to touch the same object as the darkness/deeper darkness is being cast oin. And vice versa, since those are touch spells, as well.
Dispel magic has an actual range, so it can be used to counterspell up to its maximum range of effect.
Using a fireball to counterspell a fireball would apply within the range of the two fireballs, etc.
Note: If the counterspeller has a reach continual flame prepared, then he could counterspell a darkness/deeper darkness cast within that close range.
And, as mentioned, against many monsters who can use darkness or deeper darkness effects, counterspell is a bad idea, since that burns up your spell and does not prevent them from using their (probably) at will ability the next round.
I should clarify: I've never run counterspelling as requiring the same range and target as the original spell--rather, the target was the spell being countered, and it worked so long as you could see and identify the spell in question.
Rereading the Counterspells section, though, I think Jiggy has it right. Unlike with targeted dispel magic, you don't actually target the spell being countered. Thus, you must be targeting the same target as the original spell. Since it explicitly has to be in the same range...yeah. Counterspelling just got even worse than I thought it was.
Can you even counter a spell with a target of "you" using that spell?
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Other thought: Is the Spellcraft check strictly necessary?
If you don't make the roll, but know or guess what he's casting anyway, can you counter?
Maybe he's yelled it out to his allies. Or maybe he's been casting the same blast spell for the last 5 rounds.
No, it wouldn't be necessary, if you are feeling lucky.
You can try to counter, and, if he is casting the spell you think he is, then you will have the normal checks involved in counterspelling.
If he has yelled it out to his allies, as long as you think he is telling the truth, you are golden. Maybe a Sense Motive check to see if he is telling the truth? Maybe he is just yelling the name of a fdifferent spell with the same area of effect. Same result for his allies, they get out of range, but the result is different for the targets in the area than they expected...
And, if he has been casting the same blast spell for 5 rounds, are you sure that he isn't out of those spells, and switching to a different one? "So, I've shot fireball at you 5 times. Do you think I have a 6th slot for it, punk? Do you feel lucky?"
One thing to remember with touch-range spells is that the touch-attack is a separate action from the casting (though all included within 1 SA). So, the caster (1) casts the spell (which is when a counter spell could be done), and then (2) makes the touch attack. If done together in the same action it provokes two AoOs. After casting a touch-range spell, the caster can "hold the charge" indefinitely, but the spell is already cast, so no longer able to be countered. So, I say, countering a touch range spell is not laughably infeasible.
Hi all
I was reading the spells in the new 'Inner Sea Gods', and especially looking at the new (1st level!) spell; 'Unwelcome Halo'. It has this line in it's description: "If unwelcome halo is brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa), the effects of both spells are temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exists within the overlapping fields of effect."
To me that seems like a very strong (and maybe unintended) power for a 1st level spell.
What do you guys think?
Hi all
I was reading the spells in the new 'Inner Sea Gods', and especially looking at the new (1st level!) spell; 'Unwelcome Halo'. It has this line in it's description: "If unwelcome halo is brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa), the effects of both spells are temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exists within the overlapping fields of effect."
To me that seems like a very strong (and maybe unintended) power for a 1st level spell.
What do you guys think?
Well, the darkness spell specifies that only higher spell level magical light sources can raise the light level within the effect. So unwelcome halo would not function in darkness. Frankly, I can't think of a source of magical darkness that would actually be negated by the halo, as every source I can think of triggers one of the various spells that are at least 2nd level and drown out lower-level magical lights.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Well, the darkness spell specifies that only higher spell level magical light sources can raise the light level within the effect. So unwelcome halo would not function in darkness. Frankly, I can't think of a source of magical darkness that would actually be negated by the halo, as every source I can think of triggers one of the various spells that are at least 2nd level and drown out lower-level magical lights.Hi all
I was reading the spells in the new 'Inner Sea Gods', and especially looking at the new (1st level!) spell; 'Unwelcome Halo'. It has this line in it's description: "If unwelcome halo is brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa), the effects of both spells are temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exists within the overlapping fields of effect."
To me that seems like a very strong (and maybe unintended) power for a 1st level spell.
What do you guys think?
You need to re-read darkness. It doesn't keep lower-level light spells from functioning, it says they don't increase the light level. Any other effects the spell might have would function normally—including the clause he cited.
Just read the guide. Dotted. And I love you for this guide :)
Hmm. It seems to me, that this new first level spell then in many situations would obviate the need of f.ex. a Daylight spell?
This would effectively (and cheeply) cancel out f.ex. a Deeper Darkness spell.
Unwelcome Halo does seem a pretty potent way to neutralize Deeper Darkness. A neutral or evil caster can cast it on himself as a standard action and it temporarily negates all magical darkness in a 40 foot radius for 1 minute per level.
Very well done. Thank you for sharing jigg!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Unwelcome Halo does seem a pretty potent way to neutralize Deeper Darkness. A neutral or evil caster can cast it on himself as a standard action and it temporarily negates all magical darkness in a 40 foot radius for 1 minute per level.
At 1min/level, it's basically good for one fight, and does little else than deal with darkness (and its deeper cousin).
This seems completely in line with other "answer" spells; think of the spell levels of all the different spells that can negate greater invisibility, for example. Protection from evil can make you immune to dominate person. And so on. Based on the precedent of higher-level spells having lower-level "solution spells" that permeates the game, it's actually kind of surprising that this effect didn't already exist at 1st level.
One more thing: what do you suppose it means that the glow can even be seen without line of sight? Did you just announce your presence to the entire dungeon?
One thing to remember with touch-range spells is that the touch-attack is a separate action from the casting (though all included within 1 SA). So, the caster (1) casts the spell (which is when a counter spell could be done), and then (2) makes the touch attack. If done together in the same action it provokes two AoOs. After casting a touch-range spell, the caster can "hold the charge" indefinitely, but the spell is already cast, so no longer able to be countered. So, I say, countering a touch range spell is not laughably infeasible.
You've got too many AoOs here.
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Making those free touch attacks as part of a touch spell does NOT provoke an AoO as it is considered an armed attack.
Edit: Also wanted to say thank you Jiggy for this excellent and concise guide to light and darkness.
Edit 2: Just realized wisepeppy was talking about a ranged-touch spell, in which case there ARE two AoOs. On my first read through I thought he was talking about a regular touch attack, not a ranged touch.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Are there any other sources of ambient light besides sun, moon, and stars?
Possibly, but they're not explicitly spelled out. The FAQ (the only place the term "ambient" appears) says "natural sources, such as the sun, moon, and stars". I'm sure a creative GM could come up with something in that category.
What is a "whole area?"
A torch lights up the whole floor of a 40' round tower.
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This is exactly why the "ambient light" interpretation is terrible.
Very clear and helpful. Thank you for this!
But magical darkness is "opaque" or at least "translucent" darkness in that it even blocks your vision of what is going on outside its area of effect. It's like a sphere of inky black air.
I have to disagree. The spell description for darkness doesn't indicate this opaqueness at all. It discusses light levels only. Furthermore, it specifies that creatures with darkvision are at no disadvantage in magically created dim or dark levels of light.