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I'm concerned this might seem presumptious, but this is a topic that comes up frequently, so I thought we should try to pool some ideas on it.
The purpose of this thread is to give guidance and ideas for DMs who are entering into the 13+ level range. Its not to discuss how 'the game falls apart' or the relative merits of classes (who or what is broken).
I'm sticking it in Discussion since I'm disinclined to think my own humble advice will be the polestar of the folks who are venturing into those higher levels.
And so...
"To train an archer, start with his grandfather."
This is a tricky thing I live by. The major problem with high level is when the party stumbles into it. When they ride modules and adventures that aren't connected into a high level arena without building up that high level arena.
You should already know who the big movers and shakers are. You should already plan for how the world handles these big guys. Since generally speaking, if the PCs get there, and you all of a sudden want to have appropriately high level CR threats..they had to have been there before.
If the party suddenly walks into a town and discovers the guards are all now level 11, they'll wonder where they were. They'll wonder how a normal kingdom deals with a CR16 Colossal Goliath Beetle that might just wander by one day.
The 15th level alchemists and warlords aren't waiting for the party so they can exist. Things in general go smoother if you accept they're there, and build them (and their counters) in from early on.
"Its less about can or can't and more about how and how well."
Defeat the lich.
Alright, we scry and teleport in using maximized spells and bob uses his superstition to tank while we...blah blah blah. This is usually what people cite when they say 'things fall apart.'
By higher levels, its not about just beating up the monsters or BBEGs anymore. Its about accomplishing something.
Astrobad the Cleric wants to resurrect the demon queen of fire ants. He's already started the resurrection, its happening . The party can swoop in and kill Astrobad, but then well, the demon queen's resurrection is still already underway. They have to find a way to stop it, this involves more then just finding the nearest goth cleric and punching his lights out. It requires an adventure, while meanwhile the clock is ticking.
And while they punch his lights out, fire ants are pushing at villages, full of squishy civilians to whom those fire ant swarms (inconsequential to the 17th level party) are still deadly serious threats.
Sure I can beat the bad guy in a few rounds, but what if there are civilians who need rescuing? All of a sudden its not about exchanging hit points, its about protecting people. You're superhuman now, congrats.
But Superman is too, and even though he can punch out the burglar, he still might not be able to stop the burglar from stabbing the little old lady in time.
Its both harder, and more rewarding to win the battle against the undead hordes while trying to keep that honorable, but nowhere near your power level NPC alive.
"Mano e mano. Man to man. Just you. And Me. And My GUARDS!"
Tabletop isn't Final Fantasy. The heroes shouldn't be squaring off against one guy with five dudes backing them up in a featureless grey room. The heroes obviously got to higher levels through cooperation as well as badassitude, so why do people find it so odd the bad guy might too?
If its not the BBEGuy, but the BBEGroup you get more NPCs to play with and a more diverse combat method. The party might find themselves prioritizing, while they themselves are being prioritized, and those high level guys? Just as mobile and high-levelly as they are.
Its something ironically enough that FR taught me. Why does Elminster sit in his tower all the time? Its not because of the lame 'then evil would pull out its CR 29 wizard' crap. Its because ideally he should be working on stopping his foes while he sits in his posh digs, andhe wants to watch the people and things he cares about. At higher level it becomes more about the mobility, the personality and the effects of the person on the wider world. Which ties in with the other half of this..
Those guards? The players should have them too. This makes the high level guy feel like he's more then just a 15th level fighter. If he has people calling him Lord Kickassikus and being available to do his grunt work. Even without the leadership feat, the high level hero should be able to delegate. He's a power now. He should affect things beyond his own's arms reach. The party probably got recrutied by a high level guy at some point, let them be that guy for the lower level stuff that they can't be bothered with (stop those fire ants for me, and I'll give you 1000gp). It makes them feel like they've arrived.
Also, like the point above, if he is invested in people and places, those people and places don't necessarilly have the same wherewithall that he does. He can handle those Rakshasa assassins, but his wife and retainers probably can't if he's away too long (starting to see why our proto-Elminsters sit at home so much?).
"You take the thousand on the left. I'll take the thousand on the right."
Know those rules about appropriate encounter design and 'challenging' the player? Don't forget to let the players feel like rampaging gods of destruction. The five of them stumble across the Orcish Army, 6,000 men strong consisting of almost all basic CR 1/2 orcs.
Let them erradicate the green bastards.
Players frequently complain that NPCs get to look cool in cut scenes. Why do they look cool? Because they're fighting little dudes and get to show their tricks. Let the players do this. Have them single handedly rescue a kingdom or city, just by being there, just by unintentionally being there.
Don't make the high level party feel like its in an arms race. Make them feel like superheroes.
Then when an appropriate CR enemy shows up, it feels like a threat. Not just to them, but to the rest of the world.
I'll try to add more as I think of them, but feel free to add your own how-to tips on running higher level adventures.
Dotting. I've been thinking of a high level mythic campaign, and these are good tips.
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Control the flow of information
High level PCs have access to a huge number of resources that their lower level selves would have had fits to obtain. This includes powerful divination magic. Be ready for it. Learn what those spells can and cannot do. The one thing you as GM have that the players don't is all of the information. Make sure you only reveal what you have to. You can still run a successful investigative adventure with high-level characters if you are careful about what you reveal and when.
Don't let the players dictate the pace
The game assumes a number of encounters between rests. Even though the PCs can manufacture opportunities to rest, the GM can manufacture encounters even more easily. If you want to challenge your PCs, you need to avoid letting them have every encounter with a full complement of abilities.
Let go of your feelings
This is probably good advice for all levels of play, but Pathfinder is designed around the PCs winning. Don't get precious about your NPCs, because their entire purpose is to make the PCs look good.
Be a cool guy
The GM can always win. The game isn't about winning. It's about sharing a fun story with friends. Your focus should never be on "beating" the PCs, but on making it feel like that's the level of challenge you're presenting.
Let go of your feelings
Lately I've been having problems with this. Players get cocky, god-complexes which further frustrates what the GM feels: perpetual loss. NPCs aren't built to win, so having them lose all the time, regardless of the level of GM/player cooperation, gets demoralizing.
I find that this feeling is mitigated by
Don't let the players dictate the pace.
One NPC adversary can be just/if not more challenging than scores of low CRs grouping together. For every scry the PCs have, the enemy has his moment with the crystal ball or CR10 goblin scout for gathering information. The one or small handful of powerful enemies don't bring combat to a full stop either... and they're more intelligent.
This looks like useful advice from what I can see, definitely looking forward to future additions. Thanks!
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The Glass Cannon Standoff
I learned this one from Vampire: the Masquerade. In that game, characters are even more glass cannons than in PF. By entire orders of magnitude. Many powers can only be resisted if you're dedicated to that sort of contest. Physical-focus people stand little chace against mental powers, and mental dudes tend to crumple like toilet paper against a strong beating. There are no level-based saving throw bonuses.
And yet vampire society, particularly when you get to the old and really powerful guys, is quite stable. A party of PCs is mechanically quite able to take down one elder (with some losses probably, but chances are they'll win). And yet it doesn't happen all that often.
It's because the threat of retaliation. All these people have a lot to lose. They're afraid of open war breaking out, so there's a fairly open threat that anyone who breaks the stalemate is fighting EVERYONE else. Kill one Elder, all the others are coming after you together.
Because they want everyone to know that Elders are untouchable. You simply can't hope to survive taking down an Elder in good standing; the others won't let you live to savor the victory.
Before you can take down an "Establishment" figure, you first have to convince the rest of the Establishment that this guy needed killing. So you dig up scandals, prove that he's a threat to the status quo, that he's even more perverted and diabolical than the others, that he's plotting against them etc.
That's the adventure. When you succeed, it becomes permissible to kill him. The adventure has two climaxes: political victory followed by a blood hunt to achieve physical victory, against someone who's quite angry at you.
High Level (N)PCs don't do scut work
If you show high level NPCs existing in the world, players are going to ask why those people aren't dealing with threats to the village/kingdom/world. It's a valid question and requires a good answer to keep your world plausible.
A level 15 wizard can deal with any problem that a level 3 party has a tough time with. It's not hard for him. But he doesn't do that, for several reasons.
- He's got better things to do. He doesn't want to get swamped in little people problems, because when does that ever stop?
- There are low-level people around to do it for them. This'll get them XP so that they'll eventually graduate to more useful mid-level minions.
- Going out in the field rather than staying in your stronghold makes it easier for your enemies to prepare an ambush. If you regularly ride out to kill bandits 10 levels below you, someone is going to lure you out with fake bandits in a place of their choosing.
That doesn't mean however that high-level NPCs just sit around doing nothing, which is annoying to players ("those guys are useless"). Make sure you have some things to talk about that they're doing that are important. ("The high priest stays in the capital because he needs to be close by in case demons try to destroy the government. The Archpaladin is patrolling the Northern Wastes to keep dragons out.")
Sometimes they do come into the field themselves. If a threat arises that's level-appropriate, or job-appropriate, they should get in on the action. If a big dragon captures the princess, the head paladin should be going after that himself, not sending PCs five levels below him.
The trick here is not to have a Deus Ex Machina or a "GMPC solves all problems" going on here. Remember that high-level NPCs employ lower-level people for work that's important but below their own scope. The PCs may have a vital role to play in rescuing the princess. Maybe the NPC paladin challenges the dragon to lure it out of his lair, so that the PCs can free the princess (only having to deal with the dragon's minions).
It's like an army: generals focus on the big picture and get medals, but the soldiers in the field are also heroes and also get medals.
To belabor the point: frame the adventure so that both NPC and PCs are doing something that's obviously important.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Don't stymie high level abilities - require them
Don't worry about coming up with ways to stop a party from skipping your entire adventure using scry and teleport and wind walk. Instead, require those very things to even get to the adventure location. It's no fun to have your big toys taken from you - it is fun to use them to solve your problems.
Don't worry about how to solve the adventure yourself
My biggest rule for high level adventure design is one thing - make the adventure impossible. Think of every way your PCs might conceivably win, and ruthlessly close all those loopholes until your adventure is an airtight monolith of pain. Then watch as your players come up with 3 things you didn't think of and win anyway. They get to feel both challenged and awesome at the same time.
High level adventures are not like low level adventures
if you try to do a kick in the door dungeon crawl or a gritty murder mystery you will probably be disappointed.
Dot. Very helpful stuff here.
Dot. If only I could find someone running a higher level game with this advice.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Take off the kid gloves.
High-level PCs have incredible amounts of resources and the capability to recover from defeats and conditions that would end lower-level groups. Even death is not permanent at high levels; it's a minor fluctuation in WBL.
But... not every fight needs to be APL +2.
The risk/reward equation doesn't always need to be balanced toward high risk/high reward. It's OK to have some encounters that you expect the PCs to absolutely crush. Not every fight needs to be a tooth-and-nail affair with multiple PCs dropping to the negatives.
Do not get attached to your bad guys.
Sometimes the PCs will pull the metaphorical silver bullet out of their kit bag, or an unlucky die roll will happen, and your BBEG will crumple. That's not un-fun. That's how legends start. I have players who still reminisce about one-shotting a CR 23 balor lord with a rogue's master strike, or an AP chapter end boss with quivering palm.
But... consider what protections the bad guys would reasonably have.
Ryric's advice above about not stymieing PC abilities is excellent. However, any BBEG who lived long enough to become a high level threat is going to be canny enough to have some basic protections covered. This is even more true if the bad guys have any knowledge of the PCs' capabilities. For instance, if the BBEG knows a PC is an alchemist, he's probably going to try to get some sort of fire protection so he doesn't get bombed to death.
Understand how high-level capabilities change the game.
Teleport. High-level divinations like commune, contact other plane, legend lore/vision, discern location. Permanency. High-level summons and planar bindings of monsters with at-will or high-powered SLAs.
hrm.
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A few more from me.
Challenge Ratings are more of a guideline then a rule.
Just because something has a CR rating, doesn't mean it applies, and just because something's CR is hideously beneath the party doesn't mean they aren't still potentially dangerous.
Be aware of what hits their AC, how much HP they have, and what defenses/attacks a thing has.
"Your reward is clothes, no really."
At higher levels, not every adventure is going to provide the heroes with the loot they want. After a certain point, these items should be, well important.
Just like we commented earlier about how you shouldn't just have 20th level orcs guarding 20th level chests, the treasure should change.
The dungeon stops being the loot factory and becomes the place where the fabled Staff of the Magi resides.
In the meantime, you can provide the players with treasures beyond his imaginings, just make them more important, even if less "valuable" and not feeding his WBL. Fancy outfits, titles, respect earned by villages and cities, statues erected in his honor. Free lunches everytime he visits a certain village. A really nice horse. Pictures drawn by orphans he saved fighting off the Orcish Death Guard.
What's better? 1000gp to throw into the crafting engine, or the city giving him a seat in the university? Another ho-hum +2 sword (to a 16th level character) or an installation of a swimming pool?
Monkey See, DM Do
This is another long term suggestion. Watch what the players do. See how they react to problems. See what they do.
Do it to them. Not a lot, but a little at first. See how they react to their own tricks, see what they do to defend against those tricks.
Keep trying your new tricks, but also make it clear the bad guys are examining their strategies (they're important high level adventurers after all), and trying to develop solutions or duplicate their successes.
It'll hopefully shake them out of their ruts a little.
One caveat. Don't start an arm's race. Those are never good.
This is a wonderful thread. Tagging for later.
Some very good suggestions there.
You don't have to threaten the characters to THREATEN the characters...
Maybe a bit more on the dark side but something to use as needed.
Assuming the high level characters have developed stories, backrounds and some RP outside of dungeon crawls they have spouses, kids, towns, businesses, etc.... These are all plot tools the GM can use to provide a challenge or reign in out of control characters.
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Lots of good advise up-thread.
My contribution is mostly non-combat oriented and aimed at making sure that higher level of play feels more high level:
Don’t forget your PCs’ roots.
While little Magdelaina, Chicken Farmer Rufus’ youngest daughter may have gone on to become the deadly Indigo Whisperer, don’t let the beginning of her story fall by the wayside.
There are a variety of ways you can remind characters of their roots & histories to compare and contrast where their character started and where they have ended up. Here are a few of my favorites:
Former childhood heroes asking for advice / aid.
In laws / annoying relatives showing up to criticize, borrow money, finally get around to telling about the familial curse that will likely affect the PC (or their newborn / expecting child), etc.
Former rivals (extra points if they are hilariously lower level than the PCs – a 12th L elf wizard is probably still a better shot with a longbow than their 4th level warrior rival from childhood)
Former childhood crushes / romantic interests.
Random strangers who only met them once earlier in their career (or shopkeepers, bards, bar tenders, etc.) but who remembered them and always thought they would become great / are completely flabbergasted that they ever made something of themselves (“You’re a magus?! You had trouble spelling the word ‘door’ and now you have spellbooks?!”)
Random news from home to contrast with the lifestyle of the PC now.
Players should drive more of the story.
As your PCs start to go beyond the “mid levels” (12th +) you should be getting and responding to more feedback from the PCs about their characters’ goals & directions.
Higher level play tends to be more “sandbox” than “railroad” as things can really go off the rails with higher level play, the capabilities of the PCs and the differences in social / power constraints between their lower level selves and their current level selves.
This doesn’t mean you can’t still run “railroad” style games, but you may need to re-flavor / re-tailor encounters to make sure that they fit more seamlessly with the PC narrative than you do at lower levels. PCs should have more influence as well as more combat power which can sometimes be overlooked when writing bigger badder combat encounters.
Make the “bigger fish syndrome” work for more than just combat.
Part of the fun of playing higher level (and epic) games is rubbing elbows with individuals and entities that are legendary bad-asses.
Many of the player guides out there make a big deal about utilizations of planar allies & gates, but the fun converse of this is when the PCs extra planar or epic peers ask them for advise or information.
Examples:
Having outsiders come to THE PCs for information because the outsider’s augury / divination revealed that the PC Bard’s +45 Knowledge History & Knowledge Planes makes them the only person on the Prime who may know some secret information needed to dispute an archfiend’s claim of jurisdiction over the souls of a whole family …
Being asked by the Acadamae Arcane to deliver a keynote speech to the graduating class of journeymen wizards or teach a course on advanced planar metaphysics is bragging rights for any wizard, but for a Rogue* it might be even more interesting…
When your PCs’ clerics are asked advice because their sage wisdom has spread beyond even the followers of their own religion and they begin to discuss how best to address inter-faith conflicts in a more positive manner and then realize that they are speaking not with a cleric, but with the Herald of a god…
-TimD
*or ninja/ vivisectionist-alchemist re-flavored as a rogue
This thread's advice and tips have been so very very useful. I'm the GM for my own group and they've just reached level 12, and already I'm reeling from their capabilities both in combat (large amounts of Damage Per Round) and out of combat (A Wizard whose motto is, "Don't worry, I can craft an item for that!") .
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You have a Responsibility to the World
You're not just adventuring because of the loot, or because a bad guy did something to you personally. There are threats to the world, and you're one of the few people capable of doing something about it.
Time passes for other people, too
People you rescued long ago have become adventurers, inspired by your example. Now they're heroes in their own right, and you have useful allies.
A minor villain, flunky to a past BBEG, has been making something of himself. And he's quite forewarned about the PCs; has been studying them, because he doesn't want to make the same mistake as his old boss.
Kids are growing up hearing about the PCs' exploits, hoping to one day be heroes just like them. Play-acting being the PCs, with wooden swords and all. They'll get in trouble, way over their head and need rescueing; or they might come across some important information and take it to their idol.
Stuff like this shows the players just how far they've come, and what kind of impact they've had on the world.
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Can't believe I forgot this one:
Don't just use bigger numbers. Use bigger scope
Long gone are the days of being hired to clear out a dungeon, or rescue the princess from the kidnappers. High-level characters can and should be presented with problems far broader in scope to deal with. They now have to prevent the cultists in seven widely separated hidden dens from completing the ritual... on the same day. They have to free the heads of state who have all been held hostage at a summit... and the PCs have to deal with interfering "heroes" from each nation who are all trying to "help".
Don't just increase the DCs to provide challenges to your PCs. Give them more to do than they have time to cope with. Just remember that you need to ensure that failing at one thing doesn't mean the whole plot is failed, but can be used to drive further plotlines. Perhaps they manage to stop three of the rituals, which means that the doomsday ritual is delayed by three days. Or the son of the king who was killed at the summit declares war on the PCs in a fit of youthful rage, but the rulers they rescued rally to their defense. At high levels the things the PCs do should affect hundreds or thousands of people, even if the PCs only directly interact with a small handful.
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Let the monk turn into a dire tiger
Monks have more fun when they can pounce, and level 12+ is a fine place for them to wear a magic amulet that lets them morph into a dire tiger
Artifact Swords are the solution to any problem
If you find any particular party member is lacking high level abilities, give them an artifact weapon that fills in the gaps, like it lets them teleport or scry (sword of omens!)
High level play is zany and the least playtested part of the game so it requires a lot of DM intervention and care.
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You don't have to threaten the characters to THREATEN the characters...
Maybe a bit more on the dark side but something to use as needed.
Assuming the high level characters have developed stories, backgrounds and some RP outside of dungeon crawls they have spouses, kids, towns, businesses, etc.... These are all plot tools the GM can use to provide a challenge or reign in out of control characters.
This is a big one that fits into a bigger umbrella, and I like to call:
A Character is a Character, Not a Stack of Numbers
High level characters (especially spellcasters) have access to phenomenal powers. They can create demiplanes, travel across the world, create contingencies to whisk them away from harm, and be nearly impossible to locate. They can conjure angels, demons, and everything inbetween. They can bend the minds of others to their will. They have access to thousands and thousands of gold pieces. But, they should still be (demi-)humans. They started somewhere, with friends, family, associates, and goals beyond "level up". Along their journey they (should) have gained more friends and allies, and perhaps even lovers. All of are levers that can be used to keep PCs grounded in their character, rather than in a set of numbers. Let me explain what I mean.
I often hear optimization people claiming that a high level spellcaster spends every night sleeping on their fast time demiplane, has contingencies to teleport them away from any attack, and keeps dozens of spells going at all times. The question that pops in my head is 'where do these characters fit the rest of their lives in?'
A character that spends all their time on a fast time demiplane is aging twice as fast as everyone else around them. Many people (including friends and lovers) aren't going to want to be a part of that, and many characters probably don't want to be a part of that. It doesn't matter that most campaigns are going to end long before a PC dies of old age, because the character shouldn't simply be thinking in those terms.
The same sort of reasoning applies to things like teleport contingencies, where such a contingency may save a character's life, but leaves behind (potentially) friends and lovers to die. Most characters probably shouldn't be ok with that, especially since most people probably don't want to leave their afterlife / paradise to return to the world when they just got hung out to dry. Finally, with regard to planar binding and the like, you have a literal embodiment of whatever alignment you are summoning. That shouldn't be a petty thing.
Pocket Money
Hand out extra treasure, but encourage players (or require players) to spend a portion of it on 'noncombat' things. Be it gifts, towers, castles, mercenaries, donations, or what not. It grounds them more in the world, creates hooks for you, and makes the world feel more like a world than a game when you interact with it in ways beyond combat, and can change it without swinging a sword.
It also has the advantage of not forcing them to choose between the magic items they want or need, and the non-mechanical things they want to invest in.
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Don't forget to study your monsters!
A bugbear's star block is significantly less complicated than a Glabrezu's. Understand what the monster is capable of, and play it up to the level of it's intended challenge.
Dotting this because I feel that after a ten year plus hiatus from serious dming I'll be running a mythic campaign in about a month
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I got confused and combined this thread with an Epic level discussion. I made a post here that covers some advice for higher level play.
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Anything that isn't in the Core Rulebook is fundamentally optional...
To be honest, a GM can even say there are things in the Core Rulebook that he doesn't want used, but at that point I think it's getting a bit ridiculous. Every player playing Pathfinder should be able to count on at least what's in the CRB. Everything else is up in the air.
Oh please. The worst offenders are in the CRB. Discern Location, Magic Jar, undead creation, Simulacrum, Polymorph any Object, Planar Binding...
Lots of good advise up-thread.
My contribution is mostly non-combat oriented and aimed at making sure that higher level of play feels more high level:
Don’t forget your PCs’ roots.
While little Magdelaina, Chicken Farmer Rufus’ youngest daughter may have gone on to become the deadly Indigo Whisperer, don’t let the beginning of her story fall by the wayside.
There are a variety of ways you can remind characters of their roots & histories to compare and contrast where their character started and where they have ended up. Here are a few of my favorites:
Former childhood heroes asking for advice / aid....
These are all very good. Unfortunately, they are also very hard to pull of well.
I'm enjoying all of this. My players don't like dungeon crawls even at low levels.
They recently battled a small army of kobolds at 5th level. I really like using masses of weaker enemies to make the players get nervous then pull of an 'epic' battle and victory.
A 5th level Fighter getting to cleave through 3 or 4 kobolds makes them feel awesome.
A 5th level sorc using that sleep spell to drop a group or to burning hands a pack that charge at him...feels awesome.
So on and so forth. It's one of the things I did actually like about 4th edition...1 hp minions backed by a few tough guys. They make you feel awesome. Through a 6th level sorc and 2 6th level fighters at the party after they pushed through the pack of rabble. It ended up being pretty tough for them, and they felt they came out by the skin of their teeth. Then the black dragon made them retreat, prepare and take it on during the next session. It was pretty epic for that too.
Anyway, letting them use their Hackmaster +12 on mooks is fun. I plan to have them do something like that soon in their hometown. Probably a small invasion and they end up having to hold a flank all by their lonesome.
Edit: My point is, some of this stuff works really well at low levels too!
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First off, awesome thread. I would submit that many of these suggestions work well in a Kingmaker/kingdom building campaign as well, even if the levels are not as high.
My 2 cents:
- Make information more important than having the +5 sword of world breaking. Knowing where and when things are happening, who the NPCs are, what they are up to, or even more, that they are up to something in the first place should be important to the PCs. At least as important as gaining loot and exp, at least if you are working towards high levels.
- Definitely set your high level encounters, ruins, monsters, etc at the beginning of the campaign. This might mean having to map lich, dragon, planar portals, ancient shrines, etc way before you will ever need them, but it is an important part of of the world mythology and keeping the immersion going. If the PCs know where the greatest horrors lurk, they begin to focus on them as they reach higher levels, and will start collecting info, clues, etc about them.
- Mechanically, start requiring your PCs to streamline their PCs actions, items, spells, etc around the middle levels. If you start requiring them to have their character info at their fingertips if you ask for it, it makes things simpler when they are higher level. Encourage them to make lists of options, spells, magic items, etc they can review while waiting for their initiative turn. Start giving them a time limit to react in initiative turns. Strongly encourage them to come prepared to the game each week or arrive early to be prepped by game time. Preparing a 16th lvl wizards spells for an adventure takes a lot more time than most people think. Keeping track of all the possibilities, options, and variables for their characters can become cumbersome and time consuming at higher levels if they don't start practicing before they get there.
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This has been said, but it's something that has really helped me with my DMING.
Don't make a solution
When making a impregnable demiplane for your lich or a sneak attack against the PCs and their most valuable possessions, don't make sure they have a way out or a solution to find. They are so many limitless options to high level PCs there will always be a solution. If you try to provide your own, you run the risk of unintentional rail-roading.
dot. this is a great thred btw
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Lots of good advice.
I'll toss some stuff into the thread:
Build the PC relationships: PCs should have relationships that start at low level and still exist as they rise in level. If they have families or meet a mate, keep it going as they level. If they screw around a lot, have their children seek them out. If they have a mother, maybe the BBEG steals her soul and holds it over the PCs. Good role-players will try to react accordingly when you harm or endanger some of their loved ones. Powerful BBEGs are more than capable of tracking down a PCs close relationships.
I love this one personally. You get some serious reactions when you force a player to react to threatening a loved one. I've had players practically leap across the table and strangle me reacting to a bad guy telling him he's going to torture his sister or kill his child.
Knowledge Skills Work Against PCs Too: Players shouldn't be surprised when a PC is able to divine their weakness with a knowledge skill check. Most PCs are humanoids or outsiders. When a human witch shows up, a knowledge skill roll can give a lot of information to an NPC immediately. If he knows your class, your general level, your magic items, what kind of combatant you are, and some of your general resistances and abilities, that info will help their attack selection and who they go after first. Knowledge skills go both ways.
Manipulation Can Be Much Harsher At Higher Levels: A high level NPC might not ask the PCs to do what he wants. For example, if the wizard shows up on your door step after imprisoning your party cleric and casting a mind blank on said individual, then forces everyone to come under the effects of a greater geas or that cleric is going to stay imprisoned forever, don't be surprised. High level NPCs have much harsher means of ensuring something gets done the way they want it done. High level fighter kings and high level clerics can decree the PCs unwelcome in entire kingdoms or to entire clergies denying them access to certain types of healing magic. Maintaining good relations with kings and church leaders can be important.
Don't Take Things Too Seriously: Relax and continue to enjoy the game at high level. This game is about getting together with friends and having a good time at the end of the day. If your players defeat some encounter you took hours to design, take it in stride. Sometimes the rolls go their way and they win easy or they come up with a great strategy you didn't foresee. Roll with it and let them shine.
Give Everyone Something To Do: Design encounters with the idea of giving everyone something important to do. Don't let one character dominate everything. Design the encounters so that the challenge is multiple and doesn't give one character the time to sit back and take everything out from range with spells. Toss in enough enemies to make sure the group is locked into one hell of a fight with everyone doing everything they can to win.
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Layers and...
Let's say you have an adventure where a BBEG is doing some bad stuff and the PCs should stop him. Don't leave the BBEG in plain sight from the start; the PCs will plot to reach him and smack him.
Now, that IS how the adventure is going to END, but there should be more cool stuff in between. So use some layers.
First the PCs find out that something bad is going on. They investigate, maybe have some encounters with nifty monsters attracted to the smell of corpses or formed as a side effect of magical energy discharges.
Then they find a trail to whoever did this. They question some people, do some divinations and so forth. This leads them to the Lieutenant, who did the dirty work.
The PCs bust the Lieutenant, which again is an interesting confrontation, and stop him. This'll stop the BBEG's immediate plan, but won't keep him down forever. The PCs will probably realize the Lieutenant couldn't have amassed all these resources himself.
At this point, you could rinse and repeat a few times, while the PCs realize that there's someone behind all these Lieutenants and that's the real enemy. But the BBEG is elusive, using anti-Divination tactics even against his Lieutenants, so they can't blab on him.
... Time Pressure
Although the PCs stop several Lieutenants, they have the uncomfortable sensation that the BBEG is still out there and getting closer to his end goal, due to all the little bits that each Lieutenant managed to accomplish.
Eventually they get a lucky break and get a lead on the BBEG's current location. But they'll have to act fast; he's going to go underground/off-plane soon. So they have to storm/infiltrate a lair without endless preparation, not sure who's in there. They can't do 15-minute resting because then the BBEG will notice his front guards are dead, and he'll bolt. Also, the BBEG lair is not friendly to scrying and teleporting so once you're in you're committed; no Fast-Time Demiplanes.
They might succeed in catching the BBEG this time, or maybe they do identify him but can't stop his escape. However, now it really is a race; the BBEG is trying to complete his scheme while the PCs hunt him down.
Oh please. The worst offenders are in the CRB. Discern Location, Magic Jar, undead creation, Simulacrum, Polymorph any Object, Planar Binding...
Anything that isn't in the Core Rulebook is fundamentally optional...
To be honest, a GM can even say there are things in the Core Rulebook that he doesn't want used, but at that point I think it's getting a bit ridiculous. Every player playing Pathfinder should be able to count on at least what's in the CRB. Everything else is up in the air.
I totally agree with this, and nothing burns me more than "You want to play a Grippli Magus? No way! That's too broken!" But being an elf wizard is perfectly ok, because it's core...
I think it's a good idea to let the players do their "redonkulus" builds, and see what they can do. As a GM, you can learn and adapt to the new tricks. And, like a previous poster said, high level PCs are like super heroes, so they should be doing fantastic things.
Dot.
Quite the excellent thread. I've become a bit tired of running AP's lately (since they tend to follow certain conventions which players have caught on by now... very annoying) and plan on writing my own campaign in Golarion. This helps a lot preparing for the high level stuff.
I'm not sure if I should pose a question, since this has the potential for derailment of this interesting topic, but here goes: How do you deal with groups which habitually throw targeted greater dispel magic's on the important NPC opponents? I know that this costs them actions, but a lot of an NPC's defenses tend to come from stuff like temporary buffs. Rebuffing in combat is a waste, given how fast high-level encounters go.
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Objecting to the grippli magus because you want to have a humanity-centered game, and having a kitchen-sink party of things that don't look remotely human - that's reasonable.
But Paizo has done a pretty good job of containing the inevitable power creep. Inevitable because more books with more options WILL give you more finely-tailored combinations. Paizo did well because the new stuff didn't make much of the old stuff obsolete.
Let go of your feelingsLately I've been having problems with this. Players get cocky, god-complexes which further frustrates what the GM feels: perpetual loss. NPCs aren't built to win, so having them lose all the time, regardless of the level of GM/player cooperation, gets demoralizing.
Thought I'd respond to this, since it's in response to what I wrote, and I've had time to digest it, mull it over, and think about how I deal with this issue.
My situation is a little abnormal, because I have a DMPC in my current campaign, which gives me a vested interest in the success of the party (aka I don't want Chemlak to die, thanks), but even in games where I haven't had a DMPC I've managed to avoid falling prey to the "perpetual loss" issue. There are loads of ways to manage it, really. Having a DMPC is one of them, but the simplest is to engage in player tactical discussions. When the players are deciding whether Gelfar should drop a fireball or not, which spell the bard should use, whether the paladin should save his smite for the BBEG, take part. As the GM, you are one of the players, too. You have a vested interest in the party's success. Help them succeed. Don't do it by giving away plot information, or telling them things they don't know, but try to approach things as a player would in the current situation. Don't intentionally use what you know against them (even if you think it would be fun).
A case in point: in my last session, the party faced off against a mythic greater cyclops, stuffed their knowledge checks, and didn't learn that it's immune to fire. They also knew there was an NPC rogue hiding somewhere nearby. Tactically, a fireball was the smart move for the wizard, and he tends to lead with one, anyway. So I helped them place it, so that it didn't hit the party. By fortunate coincidence that had nothing to do with the help I gave, it caught the hidden rogue, too. As a player who knew more than everyone else, I was laughing inside that they were about to drop a fireball on both of the bad guys. That was fun. I helped them overcome a challenge, by working as one of the group.
And on the plus side, Chemlak stayed alive.
I'm not sure if I should pose a question, since this has the potential for derailment of this interesting topic, but here goes: How do you deal with groups which habitually throw targeted greater dispel magic's on the important NPC opponents? I know that this costs them actions, but a lot of an NPC's defenses tend to come from stuff like temporary buffs. Rebuffing in combat is a waste, given how fast high-level encounters go.
Both sides strip buffs if they are able. No real way to stop save to go with simple buffs like haste. Keep buffing a person up. Or have a counterspell caster present to counter dispels or key spells. Or have an enemy focused on killing the opponent caster. If he's spending all his time defending himself, no time to cast dispels.
That's what I usually do. Or build the opponent so strong he doesn't need buffs. The PCs need to debuff him to slow him down.
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I'm not sure if I should pose a question, since this has the potential for derailment of this interesting topic, but here goes: How do you deal with groups which habitually throw targeted greater dispel magic's on the important NPC opponents? I know that this costs them actions, but a lot of an NPC's defenses tend to come from stuff like temporary buffs. Rebuffing in combat is a waste, given how fast high-level encounters go.Both sides strip buffs if they are able. No real way to stop save to go with simple buffs like haste. Keep buffing a person up. Or have a counterspell caster present to counter dispels or key spells. Or have an enemy focused on killing the opponent caster. If he's spending all his time defending himself, no time to cast dispels.
That's what I usually do. Or build the opponent so strong he doesn't need buffs. The PCs need to debuff him to slow him down.
ring of counterspells
Both sides strip buffs if they are able. No real way to stop save to go with simple buffs like haste. Keep buffing a person up. Or have a counterspell caster present to counter dispels or key spells. Or have an enemy focused on killing the opponent caster. If he's spending all his time defending himself, no time to cast dispels.
That's what I usually do. Or build the opponent so strong he doesn't need buffs. The PCs need to debuff him to slow him down.
Good tactics, the only problem being that casters are normally "boss encounters" in AP's and thus they often are supposed to fight alone against the party. Which is in my power to change and I do that, but it still is how AP's are mostly written.
As I said, there are certain conventions which my players have started to catch on to after running three AP's to conclusion. ^^
ring of counterspells
Huh, I totally forgot that item. Hm, getting two of them onto an important opponent should be doable (with a Hand of Glory if there is an important second ring).
Loving this thread.
I'd make sure in a high level campaign that the players have more problems then they can handle and see which they will handle and how fast or silently they can do that. Force the player to make choices and give them consequenses for ignoring problems.
Time limits and lot's of expendable opponents can drag high level players down a bit. Especially if they know they have to fight through the hordes in order to reach the bad guy(s). It will force them to use their recources wisely and not spend them on killing lot's of insignificant sidekicks.
Two or multiple front wars force high level players to spread their recources, because they can not afford to lose once and the adversaries only need to win once.
And remember: the BAD guys may act bad now, the players are not extremely vulnarable anymore and they will most likely not die from an attack at the rear or a flank (several times possibly).
And pile on problems: they may have come for the rescue of an important person, but provide them with a boatload of prisoners along with that. And all they have to do is protect and free them. They realise this too late off course and will have to make choices.
And high level monsters may have ample recources not to be surprised in their own turf. Not just patrolling guards but scrying devices as well.
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This is a good thread.
Re: Dispelling - frankly, depowering an enemy down with dispelling is simply good tactics. Certain enemies (such as dragons) can be nigh unbeatable if they're permitted to pack their full buff array.
If my party is dispel-heavy, I'll tweak numbers such that whatever my critter is fairly dangerous going in cold, and incredibly dangerous if not dispelled. I.e, the foe is balanced with the assumption that the party WILL dispel its buffs, and that they need to.
Heh. And luck with dispelling can swing wildly. My CC game that I ran had an alchemist with dispelling bombs, a sorcerer who rarely rolled below a natural 15 on dispel checks, and a cleric who'd use her luck domain power on people about to try dispel checks (so that they could roll twice and take the better). That party could chew through an entire buff array in one round.
On the other hand, I have my current Jade Regent game, where the cleric and inquisitor between them succeed on maybe 1 out of 5 dispel attempts because they always tank the rolls. We've had fights where the cleric ran out of dispels without knocking out a single enemy spell. Those fights SUCK.
Which leads to -
Every party is different. Don't hesitate to custom tailor written materials to your party.
Levels of power between parties can vary wildly, depending on the party composition and player optimization. There's an enormous number of variables in play at high levels, and thus it is unlikely that a published adventure is going to fit your needs without adjustment. Nevertheless, a published adventure can still be useful, in part just to see what was done and also because adjusting written materials is much, much faster than doing stuff from scratch.
Preparing high level materials from scratch takes time.
Less a tip and more of a head's up. Writing up the material for a high level adventure can easily take one or more evenings, much of which will be spent on opponent design. Be sure to schedule the time to get this done - doing a rush job is asking for a messy disaster. You need to PLAN, and you need to put in the effort. If you know where the party is going, try to stay at least a week ahead.
