Kimera, are you assuming that the fighter can't take training in skills that aren't class skills? Because the +3 really isn't that important when we're talking about story logic. Ten ranks in Knowledge (nobility) is more than enough to keep your fellow nobles happy.
Plus, fighters have one Knowledge skill comes in real handy: Engineering. Mustn't forget that.
It lacks everything else though...
Let's say you want to have a general for a marauding army as your BBEG (that was suggested earlier). That general needs abilities to rely troops and boost their morales. A fighter cannot provide this unless he has a high Charisma score and the Leadership feat. A cavalier, paladin... or Antipaladin in this case, or samurai would be better suited, because they're not just different fighters, but also has the abilities to back their roles as battlefield veterans. Your army can have fighters though.
Let's say you want a mercenary band with their leader as your BBEG (again, suggested earlier). Well, what is the main purpose of a mercenary? Being hired for money. So, regardless of how you look at it, this band is always gonna be the underlings of someone else, who becomes in turn the BBEG. If they're not hired, they just wait in line or strike on their own like another adventuring party, but is that enough to make them BBEGs? Not sure...
Let's say you have a fighter possessed by something else. Well, that "something else", be a ghost or demon, IS actually the BBEG, not the fighter.
A BBEG has to have something special ASIDE from his weapon training... which the fighter doesn't have at all. With that, I see only two outcomes for a fighter BBEG:
- a menacing champion of a tournament
- a fighter who finds a huge controllable construct (a mech or power armor) and use it to wreck havoc... which would be suitable since his weapon training would still apply.
Aside from that, your fighter is better as a bodyguard, minion or underling, because the other classes can do the leading role much better and their respective abilities can back them up as well.
A naked fighter with a single weapon can too. Depends on the encounter.
No, they can't.
A fighter dealing damage is pretty much math. They do x amount of damage per round based on the AC they are attacking. They take x amount of damage per round based on their ac. For most groups the primary and secondary melee alone will take down a fighter 4 levels higher.
Neither the naked wizard nor the naked fighter against a prepared encounter of appropriate CR is long for the world.
Mirror Image + a persistent dominate person will be a credible threat.
A rogue assassin is not fun for a wizard...not really fun for any class.
See invis and good lighting conditions will make stealth impossible.
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NOTE: I love how commoners get perception as a class skill and fighters don't!
Well, they are a skittish lot, aren't they?
and if we're going to assume that we'd have to assume the solar has a +5 inherent to con (as it can get it for free unlike the fighter).Even if we play like that, the solar already used its treasure to get its weapons and armor i think, it can only get +1 on each stat for free.
Huh, hadn't noticed that about wish before, thought it could simply increase the inherent bonus by one. But yeah, it could only get a +1 to each stat, or maaaybe a +2 depending on how your group runs x/day abilities (the rules are silent).
Mirror Image + a persistent dominate person will be a credible threat.
To be honest, if completely naked the save DC will be quite low at these levels - we're looking at a level 13 caster using a top-level spell slot for a DC15-17 effect which is also completely shut down by a 1st level long-duration buff (since it's a bbEg).
A naked caster is no doubt more dangerous than a naked fighter, but I wouldn't bet on a low-dc dominate person at that point. Even a level 9 fighter (if we assume the BBEG has 4 levels on the party) will have a save of something like +9, and potentially can also get a reroll due to imp iron will. That is if PoE isn't up.
A rogue assassin is not fun for a wizard...not really fun for any class.See invis and good lighting conditions will make stealth impossible.
Actually, hellcat stealth has led to high-level stealth characters actually being very very good at stealthing. Basically a really good invisibility that can't be seen through with see invis/true sight etc. Though the stealth character of course has to come up with some way to use that to her benefit.
To be honest, if completely naked the save DC will be quite low at these levels - we're looking at a level 13 caster using a top-level spell slot for a DC15-17 effect which is also completely shut down by a 1st level long-duration buff (since it's a bbEg).
17 int to start, +3 from levels so +5. Toss in 2 spell focuses and you're at 20, completely naked. And save twice.
A naked caster is no doubt more dangerous than a naked fighter, but I wouldn't bet on a low-dc dominate person at that point. Even a level 9 fighter (if we assume the BBEG has 4 levels on the party) will have a save of something like +9, and potentially can also get a reroll due to imp iron will. That is if PoE isn't up.
Be chaotic neutral. Its all the rage.
Actually, hellcat stealth has led to high-level stealth characters actually being very very good at stealthing.
Huh. That door just opened and closed on its own. I wonder what happened.
Basically a really good invisibility that can't be seen through with see invis/true sight etc.
Arcane sight. Why hello pair of +3 daggers, I wonder what you're doing floating along with nothing holding you up...
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NOTE: I love how commoners get perception as a class skill and fighters don't!Well, they are a skittish lot, aren't they?
Given that housecats are a real danger to them its natural selection.
17 int to start, +3 from levels so +5. Toss in 2 spell focuses and you're at 20, completely naked. And save twice.
To be honest, if completely naked the save DC will be quite low at these levels - we're looking at a level 13 caster using a top-level spell slot for a DC15-17 effect which is also completely shut down by a 1st level long-duration buff (since it's a bbEg).
Oh sorry, I completely borked that DC calculation. I blame fever.
Though again, shut down by one simple spell.
Be chaotic neutral. Its all the rage.
Well, then you're not a BBEG, you're a BBCG. ;)
Though of course, Protection against Chaos also exist.Huh. That door just opened and closed on its own. I wonder what happened.
Actually, hellcat stealth has led to high-level stealth characters actually being very very good at stealthing.
Even if you notice a door opening and closing, that does not help much, as at _best_ you know someone is there. That is if they actually open the door, there are many other ways to move about at that level as you know. Gaseous form, etherealness, teleportations of all kinds etc. Getting past a door silently is hardly an issue at these levels.
Arcane sight. Why hello pair of +3 daggers, I wonder what you're doing floating along with nothing holding you up...
You know that there is a 1st level spell that blocks that too, right? I mean, if you're a high-level character intent on sneaking up to a wizard, how would that NOT be the first thing you get?
It's like if only the BBEG gets to use their brain at all...
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That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.
I thought being able to summon a solar would be cool. He was like a pellet gun compared to the two-hander warrior and come and get me barbarian. Two-hander warriors do insane damage. Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.
I don't understand your response.
Even if you notice a door opening and closing, that does not help much, as at _best_ you know someone is there.
Its close enough for a hamster ball.
That is if they actually open the door, there are many other ways to move about at that level as you know. Gaseous form, etherealness, teleportations of all kinds etc. Getting past a door silently is hardly an issue at these levels.
The thing is that the wizard does not advertise which door he's behind. You can't have every contingency running at every door in the dungeon or every room of the tower.
You also need to play smart against the wizard in his bathrobe. The fighter you can simply walk up to and start whacking.
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Well, on my Kingmaker game, the player Queen is actually a fighter (tactician archetype)/Aldori swordlord, even if surrounded by a smooth-talking rogue (with Charisma 18), universally-loved Life Oracle (Charisma 24) and massively intelligent Wizard (who also has a good Charisma). She's cunning, charismatic (managing a Charisma 18 by 10th level), skilled and strong, and has stood in front of every menace the kingdom has faced.
If a fighter PC can do it, I don't know why an NPC couldn't. On that same AP, there are two fighters who are also lord of their kingdoms.
Responding to the OP, the last time a fighter was my BBEG was in that adventure. I reworked him just a bit to fit into the Aldori swordlord prestige class and gave him a really strong defense (as I envisioned him, he was secretly a coward, greedy, bullying a$+&@*@ - all traits directly opposed to the PC queen). He should've been aided by his court wizard (an aloof scholar who's utterly uninterested in anything having to do with ruling), but the wizard was brutally, terribly overpowered by the PC rogue (surprise round + higher initiative + Step Up feat). The BBEG was helped during the entire battle by his pet bard, though, that provided him with spells, inspire courage and some healing.
It was a long, dragged-out fight, with the last survivors being the BBEG and his pet invisible bard (who didn't take one point of damage). It was a memorable battle and my players still talk about that one fight of 10 rounds.
Ooh, nice. Did the PCs survive?the PCs survived by Nova-ing the swarm of Rangers with nearly everything they had.
Sorry, I was asking Magus. ;D
It lacks everything else though...
Let's say you want to have a general for a marauding army as your BBEG (that was suggested earlier). That general needs abilities to rely troops and boost their morales. A fighter cannot provide this unless he has a high Charisma score and the Leadership feat. A cavalier, paladin... or Antipaladin in this case, or samurai would be better suited, because they're not just different fighters, but also has the abilities to back their roles as battlefield veterans. Your army can have fighters though.
Let's say you want a mercenary band with their leader as your BBEG (again, suggested earlier). Well, what is the main purpose of a mercenary? Being hired for money. So, regardless of how you look at it, this band is always gonna be the underlings of someone else, who becomes in turn the BBEG. If they're not hired, they just wait in line or strike on their own like another adventuring party, but is that enough to make them BBEGs? Not sure...
Let's say you have a fighter possessed by something else. Well, that "something else", be a ghost or demon, IS actually the BBEG, not the fighter.
A BBEG has to have something special ASIDE from his weapon training... which the fighter doesn't have at all. With that, I see only two outcomes for a fighter BBEG:
- a menacing champion of a tournament
- a fighter who finds a huge controllable construct (a mech or power armor) and use it to wreck havoc... which would be suitable since his weapon training would still apply.Aside from that, your fighter is better as a bodyguard, minion or underling, because the other classes can do the leading...
I'm sorry, but you're just straight up wrong. Why can't a figher have a high Charisma score? You speak of leading armies, that's a function of Profession: Soldier - which is a class skill for the fighter. Need Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive? There are traits that make those class skills. More than other classes, Fighters have the feats to spare to boost those abilities up - When statting up an NPC, it's a lot easier for me to give stuff like Leadership or Skill Focus to a fighter than a different class.
Look at Skill Focus: Right out of the gate it's worth 6 points of a stat. At level 10 it's worth a whopping 12 points. So your level 10 fighter with a 10 Charisma and Skill Focus: Diplomacy it just as good at Diplomacy as a Paladin with 22 Charisma. In fact mechanically speaking, it's a lot easier to give fighters the skills they need to be great leaders than other classes, again because they can spare the feats to do so.
No reason a fighter can't make a good BBEG except for lack of imagination.
Ooh, nice. Did the PCs survive?
Barely. They were clever buggers who had a contingency linked to a permanent divination enchantment. Teleported them out at the last moment.
the fighter won't drop the solar in one round, but i mentioned a level 20 exclusive trick that allows the fighter to wound a solar using a standard action x5 2handed autocrit that falls apart due to inferior speed, and requiring so many conditions to pull off.
thing is, it's your only attack, and while the damage is indeed nasty, to the solar, it is but a flesh wound that will heal in a matter of rounds, and the technique is only available with a level 20 capstone and the level 19 capstone alongside it, on a very specific archetype of the fighter class
and it requires you to actually get close enough to melee the solar with your scythe
in other words, even that trick falls apart.
NOte that the Solar have to make a fort save DC 32 or be stunned and another fort save DC 30 (or perhaps 32, but I will not put a feat on this) or be blinded.
And taking into account cornugon smash we are talking about another effective +2 to the DCs.
The solar +25 is not that high taking into accoun there are two saves.
And even if he make those saves he get staggered by at least one round. Next attack he is dead.
NOte that the Solar have to make a fort save DC 32 or be stunned and another fort save DC 30 (or perhaps 32, but I will not put a feat on this) or be blinded.
And taking into account cornugon smash we are talking about another effective +2 to the DCs.
The solar +25 is not that high taking into accoun there are two saves.
And even if he make those saves he get staggered by at least one round. Next attack he is dead.
The only issue there is the stunning, everything else is solved by just moving away from the fighter a tiny bit. And again, this assumes the solar is stupid enough to choose to fight hand-to-hand with a melee-focused fighter rather than just shoot with it's awesome bow (because while the arrows will get antimagicked, the bow will work wonders as long as the solar keeps a bit of distance).
I don't really care for dervish dance and cornugon smash builds. Seems cheezy, like using blood money and other campaign specific abilities.
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What is with the assumption that the BBEG will be fighting the party alone?
The action economy (along with conditions) means that any single CR appropriate enemy will be toast when facing a party of adventurers. The game simply isn't built like that any more.
A BBEG knows how the universe works and behaves accordingly. Like Tarquin from OOTS, a fighter can be a fantastic BBEG so long as he plays smart and uses the right resources for the job.
BBEG is a personality and a story. The class occupied by the BBEG is really just a formality to add flavor and style.
Read the first page, skipped to the last where the conversation shifted to some more specific that what I wanted to comment on.
The short: Perfectly acceptable. Its not as easy to the end encounter(s) with a martial character is it easy a caster, but that's no reason not to. He will need lots of magical support, vs. the caster's need for martial support. Then again, casters need a lot of magical support to make good BBEG encounters; the difference is that caster provides a lot of that support inherently.
The Long: No where does it say that the BBEG has to be anything. A 1st level commoner can be a BBEG of an Epic campaign. His power level doesn't matter. The encounter difficulty matters. The BBEG could be a low-level aristocrat, directing his minions, who could all be higher level than he is. It works for the good guys: if the king was a 20th level heroic character, why is he employing 2nd level PC's to fix his countries problems?
With action economy being as important as it is, no BBEG battle should be against a lone villain. It's not "me vs. you". Its "me, and him, and him, and her, and that guy, and those guys over there, and hang-on-the-wizard--is-summoning-something vs. you". With that in mind, rearranging the levels of the bad guys, lowering the evil wizard's level while raising the evil fighter's levels, would appear fair intuitive.
Its not that easy, though. A spell caster's power level and options increases in multiples, while a martial's abilities increase in a line. In the end, a caster has more options, which almost perfectly translates into encounter difficulty. To make a fighter's end encounter challenging requires more work than normal.
Ideas:
- A running fight, i.e. the fighter pops in for a round, fights, then leaves the area via a spell, item, or trap doors, forcing the encounter to run long. This plays to a fighter's strengths.
- Some one else teleporting the fighter around the room/complex
- Plenty of magic protection. Bump those saves up.
- Buff spells cast by support casters, renewed after that annoying caster dispelling your protections and buffs. Again.
- A pair of fighters, and a host of support castes, using PC tactics. The warriors rush up front, protecting their casters so said casters can finish the battle.
- Wouldn't it suck for you to finally put down that BBEG fighter (the one that has been dealing all that damage, ripping through the party, smashing your wizards, etc) the next round his minion priests go and resurrect/heal him? Unlike casters, he is back in full fighting form like he was at the beginning of the encounter, but he doesn't have spell slots to have lost.
Yes, a lot of these ideas can apply to caster bad guys, and be more effective for them. But those of the mind to bring up that question already decided that casters make better Big Bad Evil Guys. I'm not saying they don't; I'm just giving ideas on whole a high level fighter can be a challenging encounter.
"Magic is the most powerful!" said the level 9 wizard just before a level 5 fighter killed him in one hit with a critical.
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I had a vampire Fighter (Archer) as the BBEG once. Of course, that was more about having a vampire BBEG who just happened to have levels in Fighter, the exact same character without vampire SLAs probably would have been a really lame encounter without a bunch of magical goodies giving access to some of the same effects.
It wasn't a solo encounter either, there were some vampire spawn with ninja and monk levels keeping the party distracted and annoyed while the BBEG would spend one turn full attacking and then the next assuming gaseous form and repositioning through various vents, sewer grates, etc.
The BBEG could be a low-level aristocrat, directing his minions, who could all be higher level than he is. It works for the good guys: if the king was a 20th level heroic character, why is he employing 2nd level PC's to fix his countries problems?
Because he's the king. He ain't got time to handle all these problems himself.
The BBEG could be a low-level aristocrat, directing his minions, who could all be higher level than he is. It works for the good guys: if the king was a 20th level heroic character, why is he employing 2nd level PC's to fix his countries problems?Because he's the king. He ain't got time to handle all these problems himself.
Pfft. Its not like the king got in charge by swinging a sword. Even if he did he's got all the time in the world.
The BBEG could be a low-level aristocrat, directing his minions, who could all be higher level than he is. It works for the good guys: if the king was a 20th level heroic character, why is he employing 2nd level PC's to fix his countries problems?Because he's the king. He ain't got time to handle all these problems himself.
*facepalm*
Reading those entries was painful. Sure every king ever had 16 levels in aristocrat. Pffff.
Every king ever? No.
Some might have 16 levels in other classes, or even have a mix! =)
Heh. I wonder how it'd work if we tried to apply that to certain other fantasy cultures. Is the Great Uber Very Great Orc Chieftain a level 10 Aristocrat? ;D
The only issue there is the stunning, everything else is solved by just moving away from the fighter a tiny bit. And again, this assumes the solar is stupid enough to choose to fight hand-to-hand with a melee-focused fighter rather than just shoot with it's awesome bow (because while the arrows will get antimagicked, the bow will work wonders as long as the solar keeps a bit of distance).NOte that the Solar have to make a fort save DC 32 or be stunned and another fort save DC 30 (or perhaps 32, but I will not put a feat on this) or be blinded.
And taking into account cornugon smash we are talking about another effective +2 to the DCs.
The solar +25 is not that high taking into accoun there are two saves.
And even if he make those saves he get staggered by at least one round. Next attack he is dead.
Funny, I always thought everyone said the most OP fighter around wielded a composite longbow. You know, these harmful melee fighter stereotypes don't help the discussion.
I'm so sick of all this class warfare.
He's actually a 10th level Fighter with an 8th level Cleric cohort.
I find it very funny that he's a lower threat than the human King in 1 v 1 combat.
I just had to comment that I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot more deaths at the hands of BBEG fighter types than I have BBEG caster types.
I'm sorry, but you're just straight up wrong. Why can't a figher have a high Charisma score? You speak of leading armies, that's a function of Profession: Soldier - which is a class skill for the fighter. Need Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive? There are traits that make those class skills. More than other classes, Fighters have the feats to spare to boost those abilities up - When statting up an NPC, it's a lot easier for me to give stuff like Leadership or Skill Focus to a fighter than a different class.
Look at Skill Focus: Right out of the gate it's worth 6 points of a stat. At level 10 it's worth a whopping 12 points. So your level 10 fighter with a 10 Charisma and Skill Focus: Diplomacy it just as good at Diplomacy as a Paladin with 22 Charisma. In fact mechanically speaking, it's a lot easier to give fighters the skills they need to be great leaders than other classes, again because they can spare the feats to do so.
No reason a fighter can't make a good BBEG except for lack of imagination.
So you're willing to sacrifice combat for skills... with a fighter? Not the best idea IMO...
A fighter with a template would be better actually...
I don't think you should say that NO, as in NEVER EVER, should you have the Big Bad Evil Guy by himself.
That is a bit of the appeal of the Big Bad Evil Guy. His big and bad and evil enough, theoretically, to threaten 4 strong people.
Now, whether that shakes out (I think we have had experiences where the villain bombs the Initiative check and gets dog piled before it does anything) or not is to me irrelevant.
Why doesn't it work and what if anything can be done to fix it?
Why does the system work so much better with BBEG with G being Group and not Guy?Late stage, once they got the hang of it, 4E really knew how to do those Solo fights, those Big Bad Evil GUY encounters.
Pathfinder's strong suit is not there. Especially with martial combatants as the Guy.
Honestly I'm a bit surprised they didn't yet make a "Boss Monster" template, that grants them a huge boost in HP, and multiple turns per round. That lessens the issues of Action economy, and enemies who go down in 2 rounds or less. They could have easily fit it into the Mythic rules or into Bestiary 4, with all their high CR enemies, who could easily fill the role of "Boss"
Now you'd still get some of the other issues, like how a SoD or SoS spell just ends a fight, and you still get all the melee characters dog piling the BBEG, making for less interesting fights, but those can be lessened on a BBEG by BBEG basis.
So you're willing to sacrifice combat for skills... with a fighter? Not the best idea IMO...
Loosing a +1 to attack +1-2 to damge is not particulary devastating for the fighter combat prowess.
The BBEG could be a low-level aristocrat, directing his minions, who could all be higher level than he is. It works for the good guys: if the king was a 20th level heroic character, why is he employing 2nd level PC's to fix his countries problems?Because he's the king. He ain't got time to handle all these problems himself.
Ain't nobody got time fo dat.
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So you're willing to sacrifice combat for skills... with a fighter? Not the best idea IMO...A fighter with a template would be better actually...
Spending a couple of Feats doesn't meaningfully reduce a high-level Fighter's combat prowess, he's got so many that it isn't a meaningful reduction in anything except maybe options. Especially if human (since you can give up one Feat for three Skill Focus feats).
Funny, I always thought everyone said the most OP fighter around wielded a composite longbow. You know, these harmful melee fighter stereotypes don't help the discussion.
I'm so sick of all this class warfare.
Under normal circumstances, yeah, but this specific fighter had the two-handed fighter archetype and a bunch of THF feats. It could probably switch hit a bit, but not good enough. And even a dedicated archer would fall flat due to the antimagic field - in a shoot-out, it has all mundane equipment, no defensive buffs and nothing.
Meanwhile, the solar has a +5 bow (though the arrows become mundane), a +5 full plate, entropic shield (20% miss chance), divine favor (+3 hit/ab), bears endurance (+44 hp), heal for 150 points, and one wish and one miracle. Those things can do quite a lot of good.And here's the worst part of all: That miracle can be used to cast Fickle Winds, rendering the archer completely useless while the solar maintains full efficiency.
EDIT: Also, the class war is the only war.
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In a world where a Wizard beyond level 8 can pretty much pose a major threat to entire armies of Fighters, a BBEG who happens to be a member of a non-casting class just isn't a viable threat. Decking him in powerful gear isn't exactly an option either, since the best gear is magical and thus subject to the effects of an Anti-Magic Field. Toss one over his/her head, and your BBEG just turned into a glorified version of the cannon fodder you've been beating down throughout the campaign.
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In a world where a Wizard beyond level 8 can pretty much pose a major threat to entire armies of Fighters, a BBEG who happens to be a member of a non-casting class just isn't a viable threat. Decking him in powerful gear isn't exactly an option either, since the best gear is magical and thus subject to the effects of an Anti-Magic Field. Toss one over his/her head, and your BBEG just turned into a glorified version of the cannon fodder you've been beating down throughout the campaign.
Yes, because Antimagic Field doesn't screw casters over at all.
I mean, yeah, a Fighter BBEG needs some serious equipment to be viable, just like a Fighter PC, but that doesn't mean he's not as workable at all, and Antimagic Field (while certainly a bad fighter tactic under most circumstances) isn't exactly a fighter specific counter, y'know?
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Why is the only way to counter a Caster exclusive to Casters to begin with?
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Why is the only way to counter a Caster exclusive to Casters to begin with?
That...seems a little off-topic. This is a thread about whether you can have Fighter main villains, not another reiteration of 'Martials Can't Have Nice Things'.
Fighters in no way require Antimagic Field to be main villains...in fact, here's an example, for the campaign I'm going to run soon. He's not exactly a BBEG, but he could serve as such easily enough:
CR 15
Half Orc Fighter (Lore Warden) 14
LN Medium Humanoid
Init +5; Senses Perception +16,
DEFENSE
AC 32/36, touch 19, flat-footed 27/31 (+10 Armor, +5 Dex, +2 Deflection, +1 Luck, +1 Insight, +2 NA, +4 shield)
HP 172 (14d10+84)
Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +13, +4 to saves vs. fear,
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee greatsword +32/+23/+18 (2d6+36/17-20)
Ranged longbow +24/+19/+14 (1d8+13/x3)
STATISTICS
Str 27*, Dex 20*, Con 20*, Int 20*, Wis 14*, Cha 18*
BAB +14; CMB +29; CMD 48
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Cosmopolitan (Bluff, Diplomacy), Diehard, Endurance, Improved Critical, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword),
Skills: Acrobatics +23, Appraise +9, Bluff +21, Diplomacy +21, Climb +14, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (Engineering) +9, Knowledge (Geography) +9, Knowledge (History) +9, Knowledge (Local) +22, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Nobility) +13, Knowledge (Planes) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +9, Perception +16, Profession (Ruler) +15, Sense Motive +20, Survival +6, Swim +14, Use Magic Device +18/5*,
Languages Elven, Common, Orc, Sylvan, Dwarven, Goblin, Draconic, Giant,
Traits Reckless, Suspicious,
Special Sacred Tattoo Racial Trait, Shaman’s Apprentice Racial Trait, Skilled Racial Trait, Weapon Training (Large Blades) 3, Weapon Training (Bows) 2, Know Thy Enemy (w/ Swift Lore), Hair's Breadth,
Combat Gear wand of shield (CL 2nd, 20 charges), wand of versatile weapon (5 charges), wand of resist energy (5 charges), potion of cure moderate wounds (1), wand of lesser restoration (10 charges), wand of cure light wounds (50 charges), wand of fly (5 charges), + more for a total of around 15k or so in consumables, tailored to oppose the party since, y’know, he’s a genius.
Gear Mithral Breastplate +4, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Belt of Mental Perfection +2 (Use Magic Device), Cloak of Resistance +4, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Ring of Protection +2, Ring of Mind Shielding, Boots of Speed, +3 Adamantine Greatsword, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Sash of the War Champion, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Ioun Torch, Gloves of Dueling, Masterwork Dagger, +1 Adaptive Composite Longbow w/ 60 arrows,
25 point-buy + PC wealth = +1 CR (Note: If dropping to Elite Array, he loses 2 points of Int and Chr and 1 each of Str and Dex...so the changes are actually pretty minimal).
Advanced Simple Template (to reflect using Wishes via, say, Summoned Efreeti to enhance scores) = +1 CR
Bear in mind that he'd probably only be a lone main villain for a party of level 11 PCs. Any higher and he'd have back-up. His damage is kinda unreasonable for that level, actually, as is his AC with Shield, though his HP is low and his Saves mediocre.
So, yeah, I think that works. His gear's quite a haul for PCs, but that's hardly the end of the world.
That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.
I thought being able to summon a solar would be cool. He was like a pellet gun compared to the two-hander warrior and come and get me barbarian. Two-hander warriors do insane damage. Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.
so basically, a buffed 20th level fighter with the 2handed fighter archetype, specialized in the scythe, with all sorts of buffs active, can badly wound a solar with a standard action scythe swing for quintuple damage?
that isn't fighters, that is specialized scythe wielding 2handed fighters built to maximize crits for huge damage standard action attacks for what basically amounts to the melee equivalent to to a fusion of pounce and clustered shots.
it's a build born on a vaccuum that expects a fighter to specialize in an inferior weapon for 19 levels to use the best 20th level weapon when he can truly make it shine.
*looks over my post*
Did I say scythe? Nope. If you think a two-hander fighter is inferior for 19 levels, you must not have played one or DMed one. He was a huge pain in the behind.
For some reason my fighter players tend to know what magic items to choose to make sure they don't end up being whipping boys for casters. The group tends to help them out when they are because you know...group game...acting as a group is far more powerful than anything a single individual can do.
I guess the problem I have with this is that a BBEG Fighter of level 14 who happens to have a massive army at his beck and call is still less impressive in the world of D&D / Pathfinder than the lone BBEG Wizard of level 13 who's basically made reality itself his second-in-command, what with access to Limited Wish and Create Lesser Demiplane being gained at that level. Sure, the army could conquer one nation at a time in a warpath that lasts months if not years, but the Wizard could do the same in the span of days or weeks.
so basically, a buffed 20th level fighter with the 2handed fighter archetype, specialized in the scythe, with all sorts of buffs active, can badly wound a solar with a standard action scythe swing for quintuple damage?
that isn't fighters, that is specialized scythe wielding 2handed fighters built to maximize crits for huge damage standard action attacks for what basically amounts to the melee equivalent to to a fusion of pounce and clustered shots.
it's a build born on a vaccuum that expects a fighter to specialize in an inferior weapon for 19 levels to use the best 20th level weapon when he can truly make it shine.
Huh? Where did he say anything specifically about the Archetype, or most particularly scythes? He said a two-hander Fighter did ridiculous damage...which is true without either of the things you list.
Though the Archetype might've been implied, I guess. On the other hand...who said you couldn't use Archetypes?
it's pretty much the one way to get nasty standard action damage as a fighter without worrying about damage reduction, and one of the only fighter related thing that does viable damage to a solar in an antimagic field.
because the solar is a better fighter than the fighter, and has 20th level cleric spells on top of that. you pretty much need to focus on one thing to outperform a solar.
it's not that archetypes are not allowed or are a bad thing, but i was pointing out the one viable trick for a fighter to combat a solar in an antimagic field.
Not true. You obviously don't know much about fighters and how they work and optimize.
A two-hander fighter, weapon master, archer, and two-hander fighter could all beat a solar in a martial combat without breaking a sweat. Slightly harder in anti-magic field, but hardly impossible.
DR means next to nothing to a fighter even in a antimagic field, though I do believe a solar loses his DR in such a field.
Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.Note the solars Regeneration 15 and Damage Reduction 15, combined with high speed. Sure, if it goes hand to hand with the fighter, notices it loses out, but continues anyway rather than just back off a bit and fire arrows or heal (when outside the anti-magic field it can cast heal quite nicely).
Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.I'd like to see a fighter in an anti-magic field that kills a solar on a single crit. Not only would they need to do 408 damage, they'd also need some non-magic way to bypass the regeneration.
It might be possible with some spirited charge build, but it's severely limited in that it requires a non-magic flying mount that don't die from an AoO, and that it only attacks once per round (which makes it much less likely to confirm a crit against the AC 39 solar).
EDIT: Now, it's a matter of a BBEG fighting a called creature so maybe wealth is irrelevant, but I'd also like to note that the solar, if given a few days, can grant itself +5 to all ability scores that remain in the field. The fighter cannot do that for free, and would have to use tomes for 137500 gp per ability score.
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I guess the problem I have is that a BBEG Fighter of level 14 who happens to have a massive army at his beck and call is still less impressive in the world of D&D / Pathfinder than the lone BBEG Wizard of level 13 who's basically made reality itself his second-in-command. Sure, the army could conquer one nation at a time in a warpath that lasts months if not years, while the Wizard could do the same in the span of days or weeks.
Except that any kingdom worth it's salt also has spellcasters, so no he can't. And the Fighter has good odds of being able to murder him in a straight fight.
A naked fighter with a single weapon can too. Depends on the encounter.No, they can't.
A fighter dealing damage is pretty much math. They do x amount of damage per round based on the AC they are attacking. They take x amount of damage per round based on their ac. For most groups the primary and secondary melee alone will take down a fighter 4 levels higher.
No. I wish it were simple math. It isn't. There are all kinds of variables.
Naked fighter jumps up, grabs his weapon, and starts going to down.
Let's say he manages to win initiative or get a few hits off. He is using Stunning Assault along with Stunning Critical. He is using a Greatxe for four hits a round naked. Or he has Whirlwind Attack with Lunge. He gets to swing at everything within 10 feet critting on a 19-20.
If he pops up, grabs his axe. Gets a few rounds to go to down, he will down a lot of creatures if they can't stop him quickly. Definitely a lot of martial creatures if he is in a tight room.
You're giving the wizard a few rounds to get off his spells naked. No reason the martial can't at least his grab his weapon.
Once he starts swinging, then it comes down to probability. Each crit changes the outcome of the battle.
I get that some of you haven't run high level fighters either as players or as a DM. You severely underestimate their capabilities.
I think people are misunderstanding the importance of the CR of the encounter too.