Barbarian BBEGs are awesome.
Yeah, I was solely addressing Icyshadow with that statement, as he was the first to say that any non-caster is un-BBEG-able for "suspension of disbelief" reasons.
EDIT: Also, guys, if a paladin kills a solar to protect a fellow party member, is it an evil act?
EDITx2: If anybody actually tries to address that question, I will voluntarily fall from paladinhood to butcher them.
Also, just to lay the above post to rest before a whole thing gets started: That solar represents a large chunk of the wizard's resources, and if the fighter is the BBEG, he'll be at least level 25. In addition, he'll probably have support.
Your complaint about class balance is irrelevant because a BBEG is, by his own nature, not supposed to be perfectly balanced. Class disparity doesn't matter. I don't care how OP your tenth level sorcerer is if he's up against a twentieth level rogue, y'dig?
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Barbarian BBEGs are awesome.Yeah, I was solely addressing Icyshadow with that statement, as he was the first to say that any non-caster is un-BBEG-able for "suspension of disbelief" reasons.
Do Paladins and Antipaladins count as "non-casters"? I've had some awesome campaigns where Antipaladin or antipaladin variants made amazing BBEGs.
Similarly with Rangers.
Fighters are pretty much the only class I can think of that require that extra work to stay viable as end-game villains, and even then I think it's often worth it. A BBEG Fighter possessed by an evil artifact can make for good times.
Fighters are pretty much the only class I can think of that require that extra work to stay viable as end-game villains
Rogues (big on items and gear, just like fighters), commoners, aristocrats, experts, warriors, adepts.
Surprisingly monks work just fine, their only problem is to-hit, which goes away when they are BBEGs and several levels higher.
But yeah, only crap-tier classes require the extra effort. Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't though...
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Fighters are pretty much the only class I can think of that require that extra work to stay viable as end-game villainsRogues (big on items and gear, just like fighters), commoners, aristocrats, experts, warriors, adepts.
Surprisingly monks work just fine, their only problem is to-hit, which goes away when they are BBEGs and several levels higher.
But yeah, only crap-tier classes require the extra effort. Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't though...
I wouldn't consider the NPC classes as part of the "Which classes count" discussion, as they're intentionally bad.
Also, Rogues actually have options that make them very viable as BBEG, with built in supernatural choices, access to Ninja tricks, firearms, plenty of points for UMD, etc. A Rogue is way easier to turn into a BBEG than a Fighter, by substantive leaps and bounds. He also squeezes more out of hit and run tactics.
A Rogue in mundane gear still has the possibility for overcoming some magic-based challenges, non-linear thinking and problem resolution, etc. The Fighter just doesn't, which is his issue as a BBEG. The Rogue may be mediocre as a party member, but as a BBEG he's pretty solid. The Fighter does one thing, and most parties can shut down any given "one thing". If Fighters could actually be realistically competent with UMD, or had access to anything that would give them an ability to interact with live magical effects (even something as simple as the Barbarian's Spell Sunder), things would be workable.
It's not really the Fighter's lack of supernatural abilities that's the issue, it's his lack of options for interacting with supernatural effects (other than in a negative capacity, like being dominated by them).
I guess that's just the Fighter's problem in general though. It's okay for him to be completely non-magical, it's less okay that he has no facility for interacting with magical effects. A completely non-magical Rogue can still shut down magical traps, evade magical attacks, and interact in other ways via UMD and various Rogue Talents, something the Fighter just doesn't have any equivalency for. I'd love to see a feat chain that allowed a Fighter to sunder magical effects, or bat a ray back at an opponent with the flat of his blade (that actually sounds familiar like maybe it exists), or anything at all that raised his facility. You don't need to give him magic to give him options for dealing with it.
Keep in mind how easy it is to give a fighter caster minions. Or, heck, an Expert or two to use the scrolls and wands up. They don't have to be very high-level to make a big difference.
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Is it really the Fighter that's the threat, if that's the case?
The threat level of a decked out BBEG Fighter drops significantly after you Sunder or use some other method of breaking his armor and weapons. BBEG Wizards do not have this problem, since they rely mostly on their spells. Also, someone mentioned giving the BBEG an Artifact to fix the problem. Isn't that just a way of saying that the idea doesn't work without some form of DM Fiat?
And yeah, I have less problems with a Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian or Anti-Paladin being a BBEG. Forgot to say that earlier.
Let me see. 20th level two-hander fighter damage with greataxe.
Str: 18 starting +5 bonus +5 inherent = 28
Pretty sure Inherent bonus are magical and thus go away to AMF.
Inherent bonuses actually permanently change the score.
IIRC the level-up bonuses are inherent bonuses.
Even Rogues can get awesome UMD and a smattering of magical abilities that make them suitable BBEGs.
And fighter can not UMD because?
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The threat level of a decked out BBEG Fighter drops significantly after you Sunder or use some other method of breaking his armor and weapons. BBEG Wizards do not have this problem, since they rely mostly on their spells.
Well, fighter tend to have a good CMD, Use admantine weapons and armor helps too.
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As far as I know, inherent bonuses are there forever, even in a no-magic zone.
And fighter can not UMD because?REASONS!
Reasonable reasons?
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Is it really the Fighter that's the threat, if that's the case?
The threat level of a decked out BBEG Fighter drops significantly after you Sunder or use some other method of breaking his armor and weapons. BBEG Wizards do not have this problem, since they rely mostly on their spells.
Is it really the Wizard that's the threat, if that's the case.
The threat level drops significantly if you steal the wizard's spellbook and material components pouch. Fighters do not have this problem since they rely mostly on their Full BAB, class features, gear, and feats.
As far as I know, inherent bonuses are there forever, even in a no-magic zone.
True
Reasonable reasons?And fighter can not UMD because?REASONS!
Why would they bother? Spell casting is something the minions do. The Overlord is too busy killing the heroes to cast spells.
Why would they bother? Spell casting is something the minions do. The Overlord is too busy killing the heroes to cast spells.Reasonable reasons?And fighter can not UMD because?REASONS!
Story Arc.
Is it really the Fighter that's the threat, if that's the case?
No, the third-level Experts with the Scrolls of Dispel Magic is clearly a much greater threat than that puny tenth-level fighter with the magic weapons.
No BBEG is complete alone. Even Dragotha tended to get allies added when up against a properly paranoid party.
I just don't think that a humanoid taking Fighter levels works without Ability Scores of Whatever I want and a Template, really.
They just don't do anything that a Combat Role monster doesn't.
Neither do wizards. That's because just as there's no class that can't be a BBEG, there's no class that has to be. Casters serve quite often as minions to greater evils. Casters can be "Combat Role" monsters. Everyone can be. That's the beauty of story, see--all you have to do is give a character a reason to serve and boom, meet Max the Minotaur Magus Miniboss.
I got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?
By not making him a Fighter? =p
We've already gone over a lot of that stuff, JiCi. Feel free to read back--it's been a pretty interesting ride. I suggest starting around the beginning, as things get more and more offtopic the further you get from home.
We've already gone over a lot of that stuff, JiCi. Feel free to read back--it's been a pretty interesting ride. I suggest starting around the beginning, as things get more and more offtopic the further you get from home.
- Undead or half-fiend fighter
- General with army- Tournament champion
- Give him a powerful weapon
- Monsters with levels
- Make him immortal and insane
- A guild formed by mercenaries
That's all I got...
I got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?Why is that a resort? The Monster Manual exists to have the Combat and Caster enemies to challenge parties.
Technically speaking, you're trading fighter levels and abilities for racial ones. If you keep it to a minimum, you can optimize the fighter aspect of it.
Sure, you can have a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, with the Bipedal Template from Advanced Bestiary, fighter levels and full warrior regalia... but what's the point in the end?
I got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Bows), Point-Blank Shot
10|Bravery, Rapid Shot
11|Armor training, Deadly Aim
12|Farshot
13|Weapon training(Spears), Leadership
14|Bravery, Mounted Combat
15|Armor training, Mounted Archery
16|Ride-By Attack
17|Weapon training(Close), Spirited Charge
18|Bravery, Trample
19|Armor mastery, Improved Iron Will
20|weapon mastery(GS), Improved Critical(GS)
The Leadership feat will be abused to grant the BBEG a CR 17 dragon mount. BBEG AC: 41, Fort: 24, Ref: 18, Will: 18(20). All of the followers will be warriors of standard array with adamantine fullplate, tower shields, and spears. Their strategy is to form phalanxes around siege engines to protect themselves as they fire them at the party.
Encounter: At the top of a sprawling castle sits the Overlord. The Overlord's castle consist of sparadic choke point where the Overlord's following attempt to wear down the party with siege engines and magical traps. A stealthy approach would avoid these encounters. As soon as the party breaches the Overlord's room, he stands up and as a free action depresses a lever which causes the walls and ceiling of the room to fall away, alerting the dragon to the party's presence and triggers an alarm that causes the Overlord's 4 wizards to teleport to his aid. The rest of the Overlords followers take up positions around the castle to fire siege engines at the PCs when they have a clear shot. This is a CR 24 encounter.
The Overlord uses a scrying orb to observe his dominion. At the end of each day the Overlord checks on his wizards to make sure that they are alive and not up to anything. For each wizard the PCs kill before challenging the Overlord reduces the CR of the encounter by 1. If the Overlord finds one of his wizards are dead, he will have them resurrected. The wizards choose how to remove their negative levels.
WHY BBEG? The Overlord rise to power was bloody and now seeks to concern the world. The wizards serve the Overlord because he offers them protection in exchange for their magical services, much to the dismay of the villagers surrounding the wizard's castles either out of superstition or because the wizards are experimenting on them.
The Dragon is with the Overlord for deeper nobler reasons that will be revealed should the Overlord be slain
And fighter can not UMD because?REASONS!
LOL
It's something I think about regarding the homebrew alot. I may take UMD out, I may give it to everyone...Not sure. I think magical items are special things, not necessarily rare, but they do change the power balance of the game rather easily. I want to make them feel special, like they did in 2nd ed, but without making the game revolve around them. I've also done a lot of work on individual weapons and giving them time to shine, magical, masterwork, or mundane.
I got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?
By having the fighter pretend to be the minion of someone else.
Edit: URL fixed.
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We've already gone over a lot of that stuff, JiCi. Feel free to read back--it's been a pretty interesting ride. I suggest starting around the beginning, as things get more and more offtopic the further you get from home.- Undead or half-fiend fighter
- General with army
- Tournament champion
- Give him a powerful weapon
- Monsters with levels
- Make him immortal and insane
- A guild formed by mercenaries
If that's really not enough to prove it works...
- Any sort of "posh" villain might have a "posh" hobby like fencing
- Ruler of duergar city
- Head of slave trading ring
- Evil adventuring party's leader
- Corrupt sheriff
- Leader of a horde (like the dothraki)
- Exiled warrior come to claim revenge
- Brutish politician (Jenner!)
- Powerful warrior who's taken over a village and killed all who fought back (more of a one-adventure BBEG--for staying power, have him slowly expand over the course of the campaign as bandits and monsters flock to his cause)
A great example of a fighter who barely uses his fighting prowess is Lord Shen from Kung Fu Panda 2--a guy who knows "monk" fighting styles but doesn't really care for monk philosophies, who resorts to knives and gunpowder when martial arts fail him.
Seriously, that peacock flipping rules.
I got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?
I wouldn't ever not give something special to a BBEG. I will always give them something special or make them a special race or assistants.
The reality is that no single class common character no matter what class is going to challenge a PC party. Not the wizard, not the cleric, not the magus, not any class. Action economy alone will kill them.
A PC party has a lot of resources at their command. It's four or five characters built as powerful as possible all taking actions in an intelligent manner. If you send in a single character built like a PC to go against them, you're going to have a very short battle and a very dead BBEG no matter what class they are.
You always have to add special stuff to a BBEG, not just a fighter.
I would design a fighter who had the backing of a group and probably a powerful magical weapon or item. I would give them an army more than likely or group of adventurers they lead. I'd make sure to design him with some special stand out ability that a group could get behind. If a fighter is going to lead, he has to be a damn good fighter. Just like any leader is usually above average for what he does.
I got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?I wouldn't ever do it that way for any class. I will always give them something special or make them a special race or assistants.
The reality is that no single class common character no matter what class is going to challenge a PC party. Not the wizard, not the cleric, not the magus, not any class. Action economy alone will kill them.
A PC party has a lot of resources at their command. It's four or five characters built as powerful as possible all taking actions in an intelligent manner. If you send in a single character built like a PC to go against them, you're going to have a very short battle and a very dead BBEG no matter what class they are.
You always have to add special stuff to a BBEG, not just a fighter.
or add fittingly dangerous minions as appropriate
or add fittingly dangerous minions as appropriateI got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?I wouldn't ever do it that way for any class. I will always give them something special or make them a special race or assistants.
The reality is that no single class common character no matter what class is going to challenge a PC party. Not the wizard, not the cleric, not the magus, not any class. Action economy alone will kill them.
A PC party has a lot of resources at their command. It's four or five characters built as powerful as possible all taking actions in an intelligent manner. If you send in a single character built like a PC to go against them, you're going to have a very short battle and a very dead BBEG no matter what class they are.
You always have to add special stuff to a BBEG, not just a fighter.
Yep. I always do.
I run games where we use hero points and we generally reach high level. Action economy can get pretty nutty. I have to have BBEGs that can return the kind of firepower they are receiving or combats don't last that long.
I find opponent PC groups are generally the strongest challenge a PC group can face. I use a lot of them as BBEGs.
My Fighter BBEG would be a warrior-king who has assembled a vast horde to conquer and enslave the neighboring kingdoms. His wealth and stats go beyond what any PC could hope to obtain. He has struck a deal with the church of an evil deity to force their religion on the subjugated peoples, and is surrounded at all time by a group of high level clerics who protect him with spells like Mind Blank.
NPCs can ignore rules because they're NPCs. Rules exist for PCs. "Consistency" as you claim, is actually more immersion breaking to me and my group than its absence. To claim that the entirety of the world, NPC and PC, falls into ~20 neat little catagories.
Actually they can ignore the rules for the same reason the PC's can-->"because the GM said so".
..and don't misquote me. It shows lack of honesty. If you think I said something that was between the lines it is ok to simply ask.
Actually they can ignore the rules
Oh REALLY
I said something that was between the lines
AHA CAUGHTCHA
;D
Actually they can ignore the rules
because the GM said so
All makes sense now.
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One issue/opportunity with fighter as a class is that it's so flavorless. More than any other class, fighter really feels like a bunch of mechanics rather than as a fully fleshed character. You can make a wizard that is "just a wizard" and still makes a good BBEG, but it's very hard to make a fighter that is "just a fighter". You need her to be something more. That's also a strength however, because you can use pretty much any flavor at all that isn't too magical.
On a small side-note, due to the semi-recent ruling on SLA's as prereqs, a straight fighter can now "easily" become a lich, as long as it's of one of the many races that has an SLA with scaling caster level. Could something interesting be done with that, perhaps? Liches are cool, and the party wouldn't expect it from a martial character.
EDIT: Perhaps something cool could be done with a dreamspeaker elf lich fighter?
What, so we're sticking the fighter in the antimagic field but the solar is exempt? Just how dumb is this fighter? ;D
Someone: A fighter in an antimagic field is a threatening BBEG.
I: Not agreed. It hurts the BBEG worse than the party, since a party with casters do stuff like call a bunch of outsiders, like solars, to deal with it, and those function well against antimagic fields.
Someone: A fighter would one-crit-kill a solar in an antimagic field.
I: Perhaps, though not all fighters could do that. Only if they're heavily melee-focused. Regardless, the solar doesn't have any interest in going into the 10ft radius of the antimagic field, it can stay outside just well.
You (paraphrazed, sorry if I've misinterpreted): Archer fighters are strong.
I: Yes, but not when they're stuck in an antimagic field and the opposition isn't.
The discussion wasn't meant to be about the validity of fighter BBEGs or a pissing contest between a solar and a fighter, though it got a bit derailed to something like that, it was about whether an antimagic field is beneficial for the fighter, which I still claim is a big "no" unless very specific circumstances. The solar was just a (badly chosen, as a level 20 BBEG is more fit for level ~15 parties, so for an example I should've stated "a bunch of astral devas and mariliths" or something like that) simple example of how easy it is for a proactive party - especially one heavy on full casters - to deal with an opponent using anti-magic field.
Anti-magic field is a really crappy defensive buff. It's best used offensively in traps or delivered through arcane archery.
The threat level drops significantly if you steal the wizard's spellbook and material components pouch. Fighters do not have this problem since they rely mostly on their Full BAB, class features, gear, and feats.The threat level doesn't drop one iota from taking away a wizard's spell book unless he uses a bonded item. Once the fight starts it's too late to prepare spells. Generally most of his spells come from class features not monetary expenditures unless he's prestige classed.
Even then, it doesn't drop. The bonded item description doesn't specify that he needs his spellbook on him to cast spells within it using the bonded item.
I got a better question for you all: HOW would YOU make a fighter BBEG that is believable, viable and smart WITHOUT resorting to templates or powerful monsters as a race?
WHat wodl be the intended level of the party?
One issue/opportunity with fighter as a class is that it's so flavorless. More than any other class, fighter really feels like a bunch of mechanics rather than as a fully fleshed character. You can make a wizard that is "just a wizard" and still makes a good BBEG, but it's very hard to make a fighter that is "just a fighter". You need her to be something more. That's also a strength however, because you can use pretty much any flavor at all that isn't too magical.
On a small side-note, due to the semi-recent ruling on SLA's as prereqs, a straight fighter can now "easily" become a lich, as long as it's of one of the many races that has an SLA with scaling caster level. Could something interesting be done with that, perhaps? Liches are cool, and the party wouldn't expect it from a martial character.
EDIT: Perhaps something cool could be done with a dreamspeaker elf lich fighter?
What, so we're sticking the fighter in the antimagic field but the solar is exempt? Just how dumb is this fighter? ;D** spoiler omitted **...
I would still never use antimagic in a BBEG fight, because it's a pain (especially since the players shouldn't know it's coming), but as classes go, a fighter is pretty well-equipped to survive one. I'd still favor a barbarian in an antimagic field, though, just because a raging berserker has never had access to much magic anyways.
Honestly, all the talk about Fighters always being minions (right-hand-men at best) makes me think that you could rip off Metal Gear Solid for BBEG motivations. Maybe someone wants to create a world where mundane soldiers aren't beholden to magic-users, a world where martial skill is valued and respected rather than used and abused. Throw in some oversized constructs and you're golden.
That's pretty interesting, actually.
Though, even though I'm no Metal Gear Solid expert by any means, isn't that series built pretty much around mechanical and biological "equalizers" (super-soldier cloning is where Snake came from, Raiden has mechanical implants IIRC, and of course "Nanomachines, son")?
Still a cool idea, but it seems to me that falls in with Templated BBEG Fighters (in this case a series of custom templates), which people have said work pretty well.
That's pretty interesting, actually.
Though, even though I'm no Metal Gear Solid expert by any means, isn't that series built pretty much around mechanical and biological "equalizers" (super-soldier cloning is where Snake came from, Raiden has mechanical implants IIRC, and of course "Nanomachines, son")?
Still a cool idea, but it seems to me that falls in with Templated BBEG Fighters (in this case a series of custom templates), which people have said work pretty well.
True, but that's because it's basically cyberpunk, and cyborg samurai are to that genre what sword-and-board fighters are to high fantasy.
On a thematic level, the series puts a lot of weight on being a soldier, which is what fighters do better than any other class.
I'm going to bring up Legend of Korra here, even though the Big Bad of season one is clearly not mundane. While he and his minions are not fighters, they are motivated by a wish to wipe out "mages" in the world. You could do a similar thing here--if you wanted, you could even give the fighter BBEG a magic artifact that could purge magic out of someone.
On a thematic level, the series puts a lot of weight on being a soldier, which is what fighters do better than any other class.
And this is important, because half the claims against these BBEGS are that fighters can't be villains on a thematic level. The fact is, all you really need is a good story.
I'm creating a 20th level unbreakable hobgoblin fighter with a whip. She's going to have an entourage/bodyguard of three sets of three hobgoblin fighters, likely also unbreakable archetype. Each trio having a particular fighting specialty aimed at a defending against a type of foe, somewhere I'm the 12-15 level range. A hobgoblin mentor/spiritual guide in the form of a barb4/oracle 2/rage prophet 10 is the only non-fighter in the group. I'm creating them now, so if one of you "fighters can't be BBEGs" folks want to create a 20th level party of 4-5 25pt build PCs to take her on, post rough builds (or detailed builds, your call) and opening tactics and we'll have a throwdown. :-)
I find it strange that some people find it normal that a BBEG Wiz needs combat minions or monsters to be viable but count it as a drawback that a combat BBEG would need some caster minions. The game is designed to need a variety of classes to be viable and the same goes for NPC's.
I find it strange that some people find it normal that a BBEG Wiz needs combat minions or monsters to be viable but count it as a drawback that a combat BBEG would need some caster minions. The game is designed to need a variety of classes to be viable and the same goes for NPC's.
I think the difference is that the wiz has spells that provide combat minions or monsters for him in the Core Rule Book, while the fighter requires Leadership (which is frequently banned) or some degree of handwaving in order to provide competent henchmen/minions.
That said, villain design frequently ignores both the WBL and the rule set in general.
