I find it strange that some people find it normal that a BBEG Wiz needs combat minions or monsters to be viable but count it as a drawback that a combat BBEG would need some caster minions. The game is designed to need a variety of classes to be viable and the same goes for NPC's.
I agree.
Particularly when his minions balance out his weaknesses and increase his strengths, as it is usually the case with caster BBEG: Their minions are good at fighting. The other way around is just as possible.
There are actually a lot of movies where the BBEGs are warriors and their lieutnants/major supporters are powerful evil clerics or wizards.
A fighter BBEG could have several priests who do not need to be close to his level with him: Some ready on counterspelling, others first buff him before they charge.
For some reason I remember the popular K. Costner Robin Hood version where the sheriff could easily be represented as a fighter with his "witch" actually being a witch. In pathfinder she could buff him and then debuff the party. Throw in that traiterous priest (but let him fight) and a few guards, and it isn't quite as easy anymore.
A fighter can also be quite good at using magic, e.g. skill focus (UMD) and magical aptitude, traits and sinking skills into it. Then he could use scrolls or wands to even out disadvantages.
As someone else wrote: A single caster BBEG quickly is a dead BBEG. It's the full package that counts.
The BBEG enjoys raiding, slaving and long walks on the beach, so let's have this take place while she's marching on a location you're sorcerer is fond of. Shall we say an open road, lightly forested, clear visibility? My group is prepared for battle as they are marching to a raid. You've scried them and can pre-buff if you wish.
Now we are talking. Get me some popcorn!
I'm a bit busy today, might not get it finished until weds. I'll let you know when I'm ready and we can post at the same time so there's no metagaming. Deal? :-)
I have the impression that the 5 Pcs will not get a hard challenging against a small band of Npcs that are 4-8 levels below them.
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A solo caster who takes on a group in that kind of setting is begging to be put out of his idiot misery.
Honestly, I feel quite the reverse. Open setting with clear visibility seems to favor the caster, who can easily lower the visibility of herself while leaving the enemy visible to her.
Of course, depending on various rules interpretations, there are ways for people with limited access to magic to do the same thing (if fog counts as an object, fog cloud + invisibility is a great way to trick true seeing).
And again, depending on various rules interpretations (how you run perception, which is so horribly broken (as in non-functional) by RAW) decides who will have the range advantage.
The Iconic Fighter as a "Big Bad Super Villain" is, in my book, Garrosh Hellscream of World of Warcraft.
In fact, the Seige of Orgrimmar raid does an excellent job of showing what major, challenging encounters with high-level fighters should look like: either A) directing tons of minions to support them in combat (such as General Nazgrim or Warlord Zaela) or beefed into monstrosities with powerful artifacts or similar abilities.
So yeah, I would definitely say that a Fighter BBEG needs a little bit more to prop him up than, say, a wizard does but with the proper storyline they can be just as terrifying.
I'm a bit behind, work kept me busy more than usual. If someone could help me out with builds for grappler and archer optimized 15th level fighters, even just roughed out, that would be awesome. I'm almost done the fighter and rage prophet, I'll post them tomorrow.
The best martial BBEG is usually some kind of military leader. Someone who was smart and tough enough to survive a war or a brutal adventuring campaign. Now he leads his own group of mercenaries or his own army. His strength lies not with his individual combat prowess, but rather in his ability to organize his troops and have them fight smart. By contrast, a typical mage BBEG uses his troops as cannon fodder.
In other words, it's much easier for a GM to use a caster BBEG because a martial BBEG actually requires effort to utilize.
In other words, it's much easier for a GM to use a caster BBEG because a martial BBEG actually requires effort to utilize.
Whooo, does it ever! I'm trying to think like a non-magical type that has managed to live to 20th level and wondering how I would defend against various magical attacks with limited resources. Not easy, I'll tell you! This has been one of the more challenging builds I have created.
I'm a bit behind, work kept me busy more than usual. If someone could help me out with builds for grappler and archer optimized 15th level fighters, even just roughed out, that would be awesome. I'm almost done the fighter and rage prophet, I'll post them tomorrow.
Here is a grappler, is full PC geared and human, change it as needed.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mIwHCUpSuL6yP2N7tPniv-dowv3Jf5fA-FKXQHK wD7A/edit?usp=sharing
I'd totally use a Fighter as the Big Bad, or at least the guy who gets things done. Maybe he's naturally anti-magic, and is a mix between Deathstroke and Boba Fett. Just jumps into the fray of the party, and gets an action after every party member's action. Like, that's a specific ability of his.
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[...]a mix between Deathstroke and Boba Fett[...]
So you'd want him to look real awesome, squick your players out by having him sleep with a 12 year old psychopath and then die in the most anticlimactic way possible by getting beaten up by a blind dude?
[...]a mix between Deathstroke and Boba Fett[...]So you'd want him to look real awesome, squick your players out by having him sleep with a 12 year old psychopath and then die in the most anticlimactic way possible by getting beaten up by a blind dude?
Before he dies via vagina metaphor, yes.
The best martial BBEG is usually some kind of military leader. Someone who was smart and tough enough to survive a war or a brutal adventuring campaign. Now he leads his own group of mercenaries or his own army. His strength lies not with his individual combat prowess, but rather in his ability to organize his troops and have them fight smart. By contrast, a typical mage BBEG uses his troops as cannon fodder.
In other words, it's much easier for a GM to use a caster BBEG because a martial BBEG actually requires effort to utilize.
That, and the fact that a Caster doesn't even necessarily need to hire an army since at some point he gains the ability to pretty much summon himself an army. The lack of effort needed in a caster BBEG is basically written into the game itself. And I actually realized that high level caster BBEGs also make little sense once they learn the Create Demiplane spell. They can make whatever kind of paradise they want for themselves and just chill out there instead of doing something stupid like getting themselves killed by the Player Characters.
And I actually realized that high level caster BBEGs also make little sense once they learn the Create Demiplane spell. They can make whatever kind of paradise they want for themselves and just chill out there instead of doing something stupid like getting themselves killed by the Player Characters.
So then, a Martial BBEG makes more sense.
And I actually realized that high level caster BBEGs also make little sense once they learn the Create Demiplane spell. They can make whatever kind of paradise they want for themselves and just chill out there instead of doing something stupid like getting themselves killed by the Player Characters.
But sometimes you need to be on the Material Plane for your crazy experiments to work. Sometimes you want the love and adoration of living, breathing people and sometimes you just want to be there to watch all of those living, breathing people burn (especially the ones who made fun of you for studying the arcane arts).
Sometimes you're just a crazy MoFo Wizard.
My last BBEG was greatly feared for his ability to turn whomever he caught in melee into Mashed potato. And yes, he was a fighter, mostly.
He wasn't without magic aids though, he was a half fire elemental (3.5 planar books) so he could put up stuff like Wall of fire by himself. Magic items let him fly and a BBEG house rule template (which all my bbeg's get, martial or no) gave him the saves and HP needed to survive. A true cr appropriate one man army.
I rarely, if ever give my BBEG just one class. In my opinion most PC classes don't have the all encompassing skillset required to be true BBEGs. My next BBEG will be a cult Lord Bard/cleric. His trope will be to summon daemons, backstabbing anyone in his way and doing crazy cleave fly - by attacks in open combat. It's not so much a good build but me giving him the level and gear advantage he needs to excellence, along with some very diverse minions.
The best martial BBEG is usually some kind of military leader. Someone who was smart and tough enough to survive a war or a brutal adventuring campaign. Now he leads his own group of mercenaries or his own army. His strength lies not with his individual combat prowess, but rather in his ability to organize his troops and have them fight smart.
I would love a 300 style Leonidas BBEG
you know, if the story is about saving a damsel (or anyone for that matter) a couple of rings of friend shield could make the final battle interesting.
How is your group getting on?
It's getting there. I have her finished and the rage prophet almost done. I've written up a tactics guide. In bit going to do the lower level fighters beyond rough brush strokes, too much work.
I'm a long distance trucker and usually have a few hours each night to work on things like this, but this last week has been exceptionally tight in spare time. I won't have time to put all the pieces together and post tonight, but I should have enough spare time tomorrow afternoon or evening to get it up then.
I'm looking toward to this! It should be interesting! :-)
Design Manager
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And fighter can not UMD because?Even Rogues can get awesome UMD and a smattering of magical abilities that make them suitable BBEGs.
Because he's either eating up all of his skill points to do it or he's investing in at least one ability score that's doing almost nothing for him other than allowing him to shore up UMD. A Rogue can UMD and still have a ton of resources available. A Fighter chews up resources if he wants to UMD.
Also, its pretty weak when the guy who is the master of the 18 killing arts faces down the heroes and promptly pulls out a scroll so he can pretend to be a caster.
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Design Manager
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I'm going to bring up Legend of Korra here, even though the Big Bad of season one is clearly not mundane. While he and his minions are not fighters, they are motivated by a wish to wipe out "mages" in the world. You could do a similar thing here--if you wanted, you could even give the fighter BBEG a magic artifact that could purge magic out of someone.
On a thematic level, the series puts a lot of weight on being a soldier, which is what fighters do better than any other class.And this is important, because half the claims against these BBEGS are that fighters can't be villains on a thematic level. The fact is, all you really need is a good story.
I don't think they can't thematically be good BBEG's, I think they mechanically have a very hard time of it. I've run a few campaigns where the bad guys were warlords in the vein of the old Hercules and Xena shows, and those work pretty well, but generally just because the fighter has an army at his back, and that style of play tops out around 10th-12th level. It's a lot harder for the high level (15+) fighter with his thugs to threaten the party that includes guys who create their own planes of existence and priestesses who can turn then inside out with a prayer. Usually they need some magical muscle of their own, and oft-times their cadre of slightly lower level caster cronies end up being more of a threat and hindrance than the Fighter themselves.
Because he's either eating up all of his skill points to do it or he's investing in at least one ability score that's doing almost nothing for him other than allowing him to shore up UMD. A Rogue can UMD and still have a ton of resources available. A Fighter chews up resources if he wants to UMD.And fighter can not UMD because?Even Rogues can get awesome UMD and a smattering of magical abilities that make them suitable BBEGs.
So, no real reason for why the would can not.
Ok, I think I'm ready to go. The fighter is complete, the rage prophet is 60% done but I'm just too damn tired to gather the energy to finish him. I'll post his spell list and bare bones in a spoiler.
Str 22(+3) Dex 10(0) Con 24(+3) Int 10(0) Wis 24(+3) Cha 10(0)
Fort +17, Ref +06, Will +18; +3 vs Spells, supernatural and Spell-like abilities
AC 20*, touch 10, flat-footed 20 (+10 +4 mithral breastplate)
Melee +1 adamantine impact earthbreaker +15/+10/+5 (3d6+5/x3), +1 vs spellcasters
Rage Powers: earthbreaker, moment of clarity, superstitious
Spells Known/Prepared (CL 18(?); Concentration +21(?))
6th (3/day) – heal, planar ally
5th (5/day) – air walk; communal, breath of life, raise dead
4th (6/day) – fleshworm infestation, imbue with spell ability, spiritual ally
3rd (6/day) – cure serious wounds, invisibility purge, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse, sacred bond
2nd (6/day) – darkness, masterwork transformation, shield other, silence, sound burst,
1st (6/day) – compel hostility, deathwatch, endure elementsM, murderous command, obscuring mist, shield of faith
0 (-/day) – create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, light, mending, read magic, resistance, stabilize
Mystery Outer Rifts; Curse Lame
Partial feat list: Bodyguard, Coordinated Charge, Hobgoblin Discipline, In Harm's Way, Outflank, Paired Opportunist, 3 or so more feats
Items: Belt +6 (Str,Con), Headband +6 (Wis)
Uses Bodyguard and In Harms Way as often as possible, stays close to Shelab and tries to protect her as best he can. Fleshworm infestation gets cast on any arcane caster he sees. Hobgoblin Discipline is a feat every hobgoblin in the troop has, granting a +1 to all saves. He uses earthbreaker rage power to shut down charge lanes if there are too many angles to protect between him and the greataxe bodyguards.
While marching, they spread out so that no two hobgoblins are less the 30 ft from each other, with the exception of Shelob and Mullusc. Mullusc will never be more then 10 feet from Shelob in a battle situation unless ordered by Shelob or magically compelled. Forcing him to stray from her side or attack her grants an immediate saving throw in the case of domination or charm effects.
Mullusc is fanatically dedicated to Shelob, seeing her as a messiah figure. He protects her to the exclusion of all others and will choose his actions accordingly. He also detests arcane casters of all sorts and will hunt them relentlessly if Shelob is safe from immediate danger.
Shelobs crew is highly disciplined and dedicated. She has trained them in anti-spellcaster tactics and teamwork skills. There are three grapplers, three archers and three great axe wielders. All are 15th level fighters of the unbreakable archetype.
The grapplers are equipped with boots of flying and permanent arcane sight. They will close with enemy spellcasters and grapple. They have been drilled on locating mind blank and invisible spellcasters and in the case of spells being cast with no obvious spellcaster they will home in on magical auras and attempt to grapple them. They have the Back Breaker feat chain and will attempt to paralyse grappled enemies with Str damage.
Archers have limning, speed bows and will target spellcasters first, aerial forces second, enemy archers third and heavy assault ground forces last.
The great axe wielders are teamwork feat heavy and will stay within 15 ft of Shelob unless commanded otherwise. They are to protect her first and foremost from mass ground assault, protecting against charge lanes and stopping those trying to get to her.
Shelob wields a +3 meriful, vicious whip and utilizes juggernaut's pauldrons. She enlarges at the first sign of trouble and will attempt to control the battlefield within 30 ft, tripping and disarming foes, leaving them to her greataxe bodyguards to finish. She uses her Gloves of the Shortened Path to target spellcasters and flying foes outside her reach. If her magical items are disjoined, she faces a vastly superior force or half her forces have fallen, she orders a retreat. She waits one round for as many of her forces as possible to withdraw to her location then orders Mullusc to word of recall back to base. If she falls, Mullusc immediately word of recalls with her back to base, not waiting for anyone. Forces left behind have standing orders to flee and evade, resist capture at all costs and fight to the death if caught. They are aware that Shelob will go to great lengths to regain the bodies of any fallen soldiers so she can have Mullusc cast raise dead. Indeed, several of her soldiers have had this happen already and all her forces will gladly fight to the death as a result.
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Design Manager
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So, no real reason for why the would can not.Because he's either eating up all of his skill points to do it or he's investing in at least one ability score that's doing almost nothing for him other than allowing him to shore up UMD. A Rogue can UMD and still have a ton of resources available. A Fighter chews up resources if he wants to UMD.And fighter can not UMD because?Even Rogues can get awesome UMD and a smattering of magical abilities that make them suitable BBEGs.
Let me just off-handedly brush aside your assertions as well... Oh wait, I can't, because you've just been rude and dismissive without actually offering a counter to what I've said.
I didn't say a Fighter couldn't UMD, I said the Rogue is awesome at it and gets a smattering of magical abilities and ways to interact with magic that the Fighter just doesn't. The Rogue is also rewarded for investing in things that make him better at interacting with magical devices (and this could include use activated items, traps, and really any supernatural element in-game), and the Fighter isn't. The Fighter would either have to give up a huge chunk of his resources to UMD effectively (and still not have as many options as any other class) or be given additional resources/unusual race/special items which falls into the feld of it not really mattering that it's a Fighter you're running, it's an artifact/creature/etc. that happens to have Fighter levels.
I also (and this is a personal preference) prefer BBEGs who work well as recurring characters, and it's difficult to allow a Fighter the opportunity to recur without one of the aforementioned devices or introducing him as someone the players just have no chance to beat (which sometimes has its place, but I think built in no-win scenarios are more story time than play time. It's generally a waste of time to make players roll if you've pre-arranged the scenario so they can't possibly win). He doesn't have a mount to outrun the adventurers, tricks to lose them or mislead them, etc. So again, you fall back to this scenario of either relying heavily on GM plot devices instead of the main class chassis, and at that point it doesn't matter what class you're playing, because the BBEG isn't about "I'm a class XYZ, on a mission to kick ass, take names, and rule the world" It's about "I, the devious GM, will use this beatstick to bash the party about while they gape in terror at all the ingenious contrivances I've put in place to protect the villain". And some of that is part of the game, but I like to try to work within the given framework of the rules as much as possible, and players take it better when a BBEG does something he should be able to do than when he does something inexplicable "because I said so".
I haven't been keeping up with the Mythic balance debate, but it occurs to me that slapping a couple tiers of Champion onto a Fighter can give a considerable power boost along with some flashy tricks to make the battle more interesting.
Granted, that probably breaks the "no templates, no multiclassing" clause for some people.
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Any Fighter can have UMD maxed for the cost of 4-8k. Any Intelligence boost item will do it. No justification needed beyond "The Fighter is smart, and rich enough to commission this item."
Still kind of ruins the mood of fighting a high level Fighter who is one of the greatest Swordsman in the land, when their essentially going to be a "moneymancer".
Jarkoth, the Tyrant Blade: You have come to face me in battle heroes of the lesser kingdoms. I am the greatest swordsmaster of my people, who has slain hundreds of lesser men in battle with my blade. Face my wrath! *Pulls out a scroll*
Heroes: Uh...k.
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Any Fighter can have UMD maxed for the cost of 4-8k. Any Intelligence boost item will do it. No justification needed beyond "The Fighter is smart, and rich enough to commission this item."Still kind of ruins the mood of fighting a high level Fighter who is one of the greatest Swordsman in the land, when their essentially going to be a "moneymancer".
Jarkoth, the Tyrant Blade: You have come to face me in battle heroes of the lesser kingdoms. I am the greatest swordsmaster of my people, who has slain hundreds of lesser men in battle with my blade. Face my wrath! *Pulls out a scroll*
Heroes: Uh...k.
Not if he does it pre-battle (ie: before the players get in the room). Which BBEGs usually can, or they're screwed anyway, since even spellcasters tend to need buff spells to survive the PCs.
And in combat, they'll fight like Fighters, they just make sure to buff themselves first. Y'know, like smart people do.
OK, I will post my stats up tonight. Feel free to put up an introductory post setting the scene about where your group is and how they are deployed.
I thought part of the deal was to post the builds at the same time, rather than being able to customize for the situation/opponents build?
Any Fighter can have UMD maxed for the cost of 4-8k. Any Intelligence boost item will do it. No justification needed beyond "The Fighter is smart, and rich enough to commission this item."Still kind of ruins the mood of fighting a high level Fighter who is one of the greatest Swordsman in the land, when their essentially going to be a "moneymancer".
Jarkoth, the Tyrant Blade: You have come to face me in battle heroes of the lesser kingdoms. I am the greatest swordsmaster of my people, who has slain hundreds of lesser men in battle with my blade. Face my wrath! *Pulls out a scroll*
Heroes: Uh...k.
Not if he does it pre-battle (ie: before the players get in the room). Which BBEGs usually can, or they're screwed anyway, since even spellcasters tend to need buff spells to survive the PCs.
And in combat, they'll fight like Fighters, they just make sure to buff themselves first. Y'know, like smart people do.
This would be true if their combat ability wouldn't be better served by spending all their +5 Sword money on scrolls and using those in combat instead.
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Design Manager
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This was brought up by a poster on another forum, but this is a Fighter build I could actually see as a gnarly BBEG. He's got awesome control and the ability to potentially lock down some or all of the party long enough to pose an extremely viable threat-
" With the release of Bastards of Golarion, Fighters may have become much more powerful than before.
The culprit in question: Dirty Trick Master
Example Build:
Dirty Harry the 1/2-orc Fighter(Dirty Fighter archetype)
Half-orc qualifies for archetypes/feats/magic/whatever as 1/2-orc, human, and orc => there was a relevant ruling on that some time ago that I can't be bothered to dig up now. Anyhow, the ARG is actually pretty clear on that(humanoids qualify as whatever race they have the subtype of, 1/2-orcs are humanoid(human, orc)).
So...
15 Pointbuy: 17 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 13 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
1st:Endurance(Shaman's Apprentice), Power Attack, Cleave
2nd:Dodge
3rd:Mobility
4th:Spring Attack, Swap Power Attack for Whirlwind Attack; +1 STR
5th:Combat Reflexes
6th:Lunge
7th:Combat Expertise
8th:Improved Dirty Trick, Swap Combat Reflexes for Greater Dirty Trick, +1 STR
9th:Weapon Focus(any reach weapon)
10th:Greater Weapon Focus(any reach weapon)
11th:Dirty Trick Master
12th:-Open-, +1 STR
13th:-Open-
14th:-Open-
15th:-Open-
16th:-Open-, +1 STR
17th:-Open-
18th:-Open-
19th:-Open-
20th:-Open-, +1 INT
The feats from 12th level onward are non-essential to the build.
"Speedy Tricks" allows you to perform a dirty trick maneuver in place of an attack. ANY attack. You get this ability at 9th level.
You can perform a lunging whirlwind attack that applies a greater dirty trick at (9 BAB, +5 STR, +1 WF, +4 improved/greater DT, +2 maneuver training, +4 from a +1 dueling bardiche and the trait Fate's favored)..+25 CMB before buffs like Haste, Heroism, Inspire Courage etc.
Your strength score might be higher than 20 at this point -buffs like enlarge person or simple magic items to provide an enhancement bonus to STR might be available at level 9.
At level 13, each dirty trick applies TWO conditions, and each requires a seperate action to remove!
At level 17, each dirty trick applies THREE conditions, and each requires a seperate action to remove!
And the beauty of Dirty Trick Master, the final piece in this puzzle:
Once you hit someone with Nausea or Daze, they cannot take a standard action to rid themselves of whatever condition your Greater Dirty Trick inflicted, so they are practically out of the fight."
This would be true if their combat ability wouldn't be better served by spending all their +5 Sword money on scrolls and using those in combat instead.This isn't true. Offensive casting from scrolls as a Fighter is almost always a bad idea on all sorts of levels.
Of course it's a bad idea. It's just a better idea then trying to use your attacks.