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School Power from the Arcane Bloodline. The Robe of Arcane Heritage lets me count as 4 levels higher for the purpose of bloodline abilities. It gives me another level 6 spell too as a result of the New Arcana boost at level 13. I have edited them both in to make it clearer.
Ah, gotcha. That works, yeah.
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I'd just like to note that a one-on-one fight is not a good way at all to gauge this thread's actual point. A proper contest involves several characters vs. one character several levels higher, plus minions.I understand that Aexandros is offering to run a CR12 encounter, not a single enemy. I expect multiple opponents against my single little 2 person party.
Actually my little sorcerer would not be a bad opponent for a group of 4 level 8-9 PC's. With full PC wealth he counts as CR12. His succubus minion arguably doesn't count as she is part of his class ability (much as a summon wouldn't). Also he can freely be given some random mindless undead minions given he has Command Undead (or Animate if he wants it).
EDIT: I am making a short amendment to his stat block but I am outside of the edit window. Daylight is out as a level 3 spell and Aqueous Orb is in. He now keeps a stone with a Heightened to 4th Continual Flame spell in his Haversack (cost 330gp in a small city).
I am, as deadman said, proposing a encouter that a party can find. I am also proposing a boss fight not an equal CR fight.
I am considerably more interested in what can hapen in actual gameplay.
I'm not doing the math on that disastrous encounter I arranged my poor slaver to walk into. If she survives, she immediately calls for a cease fire, then scolds the sorcerer soundly for firing during parley. (After all, she only asked your name and took defensive actions. You opened fire unprovoked, it could be argued.) She begs leave to collect her dead and to allow her remaining troops to withdraw unharmed. If she is killed, but Mullusc survives, he gathers her body and Word of Recalls with it back to base, leaving her troops to follow as they will. If all within the spell range are killed, the remaining troops attempt to gather the bodies and retreat. If you open fire again, they retreat immediately, trying at a later date to return for the bodies, unless they are visibly destroyed by you while they are present. Even if she dies and is not recovered, she has processes in place to be Resurrected, as well as any followers that are killed and unrecovered. If her party is wiped out to the last man, it will take her some time to return to full strength, but she has support followers that are not high level nor warriors that will work towards bringing her back, since Mullusc has founded a cult following centered on her. She in turn will work towards bringing back her troop, since she has invested much time and effort in training them to her exacting standards.
Basically, they all realize they are overmatched and wish to withdraw without further losses. They may glare at you hatefully, but unless you're a Florida policeman on beach patrol, that shouldn't provoke a violent response. ;)
If Shelob survives and is allowed to withdraw, as she prepares to leave, she looks at you cooly and remarks that she hopes to never meet you again, but she's sure that eventually you'll seek her out, regardless of her wishes.
The reason for that would be found in my round one post under the spoiler Where the erineyes went. I'll leave it to you how many were actually taken. Not nearly as many as Shelob would hope for, I'm sure, but at this point, she's happy to get whatever she got, considering her massive underestimation of the threat you posed.
Until her entire cult is rooted out in its entirety, she will return again and again to foil the party (or in this case, you). Most likely she'll leave you alone entirely, seeing you as costing far too much effort to eradicate, instead striking where you are not, raiding groups entering or leaving your protected lands instead. She will make sure that her fortress is as secure as possible against magical assault, have anti-scrying/detection devices created for her entire team (I wonder how much a Ring of Mind Blank would cost?) and having as many permanent scrying and teleportation defenses put in place as possible. (A thin seamless layer of lead covering her interior walls would be a good start...) She will have access to vast wealth, as any good BBEG does, and an extensive support network of mooks, again as any good BBEG will have. Mullusc will step up lobbying her to undergo some sort of ritual to grant her more power, as he has been for some time, arguing it could help to prevent against such a defeat in the future. Hell, maybe she'll give in and undergo a lich transformation, with Mullusc's help. ;)
This is the reasoning for my assertion that you can lose and still win, as well as the reason you can be a fighter and still be a good BBEG. You may occasionally get stomped by a well prepared and/or more powerful foe (after all, that's what the game is about, right? Defeating evil?), but with proper planning, forethought (barring occasional overconfident blunders) and training, you can overcome these setbacks and conquer.
One thing that seems to be getting washed aside, and something that Alexandros touched on briefly. Keep in mind that the CR rating is still set with one fact in mind; that the PCs should WIN the fight. It seems like most of the arguments here are that the Fighter BBEG more or less wouldn't "win", but that's not the objective anyway. Even the BBEG wizard at high levels is subject to counterspells, and other tactics by the PCs that can render them far less effective, and if the PCs use them? Good for them, they won the encounter, just as they were meant to. And if they use superior tactics, and squash the encounter, let them on occasion. PCs like to feel powerful once in a while.
Make the BBEG someone the PCs hate because of personality, and the way they fit in the story, and they won't care if they're a fighter/bard/wizard/demon/devil or anything else. They'll hate the villain because they hate them.
I reiterate my propposing. But lets make it more concrete.
Rules for the party.
- No crafting (it is not about money after all, and the fighter cold also have a wizard cohort for infinite wealth too)
- No rules bending ( if it need GM fiat then no. If it need GM permission then no. that is for example no succubus companion)
- No rules cheesing (if you have to use cheese to prove your point then you not proving anything. We all know there are breakable things in PF, but I am more interesting in more stable games).
- 4 party mebmers, 20 PB, whatever standar race, whatever class, all paizo books, standar WBL, two traits.
- THe party can assume whatever buff with duration longar than an hour.
Rules for the encounter
- Boss encounter (it would be CR +4, or perhaps CR+5 if you think fighters are poor BBEG)
- THe fighter will be at least 4 CR higher than his minions. (Because he/she is the BBEG)
- The fighter Will be 25 PB, and have two trait and full WBL for his level (It seems to be a standar practice paizo use for their BBEG).
Deal?
@Sunbeam; Counterspell or not, it was an example of tactics overcoming a different class than fighter. The point being that any BBEG should be defeatable if the PCs use the right tactics, and should be rewarded with defeating the BBEG, or making them flee.
Nothing makes a PC hate a villain more than them escaping. Or just doing something totally unexpected. Like my goblin that was fighting my PCs tooth and nail, till they nuked his friends. He looked up at the PCs, sat down in place and just said "I quit." Talk about confused PCs ;). (The dwarf splattered him about a round later.) But the great quote from the tiefling Magus was "I... really don't know how to react to that."
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Counterspelling is almost never done.
***
You have to ready an action to do exactly that. You have to identify the spell, and have the proper spell to counter it prepared or on your list.That is a lot of conditions. You can use Dispel Magic, but then you run into the fact that you have about a 50% or so chance to dispel it. Generally BBEG's are higher level than you, so your odds are worse.
There are some feats floating around to make Counterspelling better, but in my experience most players don't bother and use their action to do something different, like directly SOS the caster they could have counterspelled.
This is actually a conversation I had with SKR at some length and he actually agreed that counterspelling is one of the worst subsystems in Pathfinder. It's completely stacked against success at every turn. First you have to choose to spend your turn readying an action to counterspell a specific target. If that specific individual doesn't cast that turn, you've already given up your standard action for absolutely nothing. Then, you have to make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell he's casting (not terribly hard after about 8th level or so, but still a chance for failure), and hope that you know it too and have it memorized so you can shut it down. You can potentially use dispel magic but that's weighted against you since it requires a DC 11 + the spellcaster's level check which you get 1d20 + your caster level to meet. That means he's starting with just over the average of your roll, and adding a level which should generally be 3-4 levels higher than what you're adding to the check, so it's actually a value proposition of a roughly 30% chance of success. That's a standard actiion, a spell slot, and skill related resources so you can actually make your skill check, all for a 30% chance of success at the end, maybe 45% if you burn a 6th level slot for Greater Dispel. Not good.
I reiterate my propposing. But lets make it more concrete.
Rules for the party.
- No crafting (it is not about money after all, and the fighter cold also have a wizard cohort for infinite wealth too)
- No rules bending ( if it need GM fiat then no. If it need GM permission then no. that is for example no succubus companion)
- No rules cheesing (if you have to use cheese to prove your point then you not proving anything. We all know there are breakable things in PF, but I am more interesting in more stable games).
- 4 party mebmers, 20 PB, whatever standar race, whatever class, all paizo books, standar WBL, two traits.
- THe party can assume whatever buff with duration longar than an hour.Rules for the encounter
- Boss encounter (it would be CR +4, or perhaps CR+5 if you think fighters are poor BBEG)
- THe fighter will be at least 4 CR higher than his minions. (Because he/she is the BBEG)
- The fighter Will be 25 PB, and have two trait and full WBL for his level (It seems to be a standar practice paizo use for their BBEG).Deal?
I'll take the challenge. I should have all the characters posted up by tomorrow at latest.
EDIT: What level do you want the party to be? I'm thinking of making them level 8 characters
Take your time. I have to work on my theses today and tomorrow I have to grade exams, so I will not have the encoutner until thursday or friday.
Make then whatever level you want. DO you want hte fight CR +4 or CR +5?
Also, do nt post your characters here, As I want to create a generic BBEG not just one that attack your party weakness.
Also, My goal is to create a challenging and fun encounter. If your party get crush in the way so be it, but that is not the primary goal.
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Even the BBEG wizard at high levels is subject to counterspells, and other tactics by the PCs that can render them far less effective, and if the PCs use them?Counterspelling is almost never done.
"How Counterspells Work...
This is how people in my game counterspell.
PC: "I ready an action to cast a spell he/they begin casting a spell,"
GM: "Okay, he begins casting a spell. What do you want to cast?"
PC: "Lightning bolt!"
It works almost every time. :)
Even the BBEG wizard at high levels is subject to counterspells, and other tactics by the PCs that can render them far less effective, and if the PCs use them?Counterspelling is almost never done.
"How Counterspells Work...
This is how people in my game counterspell.
PC: "I ready an action to cast a spell he/they begin casting a spell,"
GM: "Okay, he begins casting a spell. What do you want to cast?"
PC: "Lightning bolt!"It works almost every time. :)
Shhh, you are ruining the surprises.
@Sunbeam; Counterspell or not, it was an example of tactics overcoming a different class than fighter. The point being that any BBEG should be defeatable if the PCs use the right tactics, and should be rewarded with defeating the BBEG, or making them flee.
Nothing makes a PC hate a villain more than them escaping. Or just doing something totally unexpected. Like my goblin that was fighting my PCs tooth and nail, till they nuked his friends. He looked up at the PCs, sat down in place and just said "I quit." Talk about confused PCs ;). (The dwarf splattered him about a round later.) But the great quote from the tiefling Magus was "I... really don't know how to react to that."
I get the feeling sometimes that my gaming group is really odd. Some of the characters my players are often most interested in are those they've fought more than once. Characters like Captain Scurvy the Pigmy Pugwampi Pirate (who fought with the party in one game on multiple occasions and scampered away every time bidding them a jolly fair well and better luck next time), or the vampire assassin in my current campaign that the party has actually beaten into mist form twice and even followed her back to her home and had a rather amusing dialog with her master vampire and the rather embarrassed and humbled vampire assassin (who's still an antagonist currently as she isn't dead yet).
Heck, she's even level-drained one of the PCs and they don't seem to be holding any grudges. >_>
There is no reason why a 7th or 8th level Fighter would be a better
Charismatic Warlord than an Incubus Fighter 1.
Even with rules in place, there's still a story element to the game and a reason to choose certain enemies besides mechanical optimization. No one's going to look at a human warlord and say, "Why does he bother if a demon can do the job better?"
Sure the Pete with the Bard maxed out Bluff and cast
Glibness and has a Charisma of 22 and put a lot of mechanical
resources into being a great conman and liar character but Pete just cannot ROLEPLAY.Then Steve playing the Fighter can roleplay but he has nothing to indicate that his Fighter is even merely mechanically competent as
a liar, much less "Potentially the best liar in the kingdom" that Pete's Bard character is.Could Pete roleplay his Bard as having a Full Attack Bonus and Bravery and Armor Training and Weapon Training and Armor and Weapon Proficiencies? No. So why do you want the Fighter BBEG to "roleplay" being somebody with suave statecraft and master plans?
His role is to be the FIGHTER not that other stuff. Make the enemy a Magus or an Antipaladin or a Monster or a Bard or a Wizard if you want that stuff. "The Fighter" is limited as a BBEG because he has a limited role by his name...FIGHTING.
Well first off I feel like your analogy with Steve and Pete doesn't reflect the matter at hand because you're talking about two player characters. I said that the mechanics exist to facilitate the PCs interacting with the setting, be it through trade, seduction, murder, or whatever else they want to do. NPCs are a different matter; yes, they use the same systems when they're dealing with the PCs (or the PCs' NPC companions if they get involved), but everything "off screen" generally proceeds without needing to roll for anything. And if you don't need rolls, you don't need the numbers that exist to modify rolls.
Second, even if we are cleaving to the rules here, saying that the Fighter is capable of nothing beyond his namesake is flat-out ignoring the options presented. Granted, the class skills are limited and the skill points are few, but a good Intimidate or Profession (Soldier) is potentially enough to justify leadership depending on context. Plus, there is nothing at all preventing a Fighter from buying respectable mental attributes or putting ranks in non-class skills. And of course, archetypes like the Cad and Tactition open up new class skills and even more skill points in the latter example. So while the Bard might have an edge in those departments, there's no reason to flat-out say that Fighters simply cannot do more than bash people.
Actually, to follow up, "suave statecraft and master plans" aren't Bard class features either. They're encouraged to have high Charisma and have access to useful skills, but their innate performance abilities are generally more useful in combat than social maneuvering (except Suggestion, but using magic to influence people can easily backfire if anyone figures it out). Plus, there is no game mechanic for plotting and scheming; it can be assumed that high Intelligence helps, but nowhere does it say that there's any kind of minimum for having and executing good ideas.
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Plus, there is nothing at all preventing a Fighter from buying respectable mental attributes or putting ranks in non-class skills.
Well other than their severe multi-ability dependency. They need high Strength to be a threat, high Dexterity for AC and to actually receive any meaningful benefit from their Armor Training class feature, high Constitution to take hits since they lack damage mitigation capabilities, and they need a decent Wisdom because their saves are one step above the worst saves in the game (Constructs have +1/3 in all saves).
While it doesn't prevent them from having strong Intelligence and Charisma it is a pretty strong incentive not to because the Fighter will generally lose far more than he will gain.
This is actually a conversation I had with SKR at some length and he actually agreed that counterspelling is one of the worst subsystems in Pathfinder. It's completely stacked against success at every turn. First you have to choose to spend your turn readying an action to counterspell a specific target. If that specific individual doesn't cast that turn, you've already given up your standard action for absolutely nothing. Then, you have to make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell he's casting (not terribly hard after about 8th level or so, but still a chance for failure), and hope that you know it too and have it memorized so you can shut it down. You can potentially use dispel magic but that's weighted against you since it requires a DC 11 + the spellcaster's level check which you get 1d20 + your caster level to meet. That means he's starting with just over the average of your roll, and adding a level which should generally be 3-4 levels higher than what you're adding to the check, so it's actually a value proposition of a roughly 30% chance of success. That's a standard actiion, a spell slot, and skill related resources so you can actually make your skill check, all for a 30% chance of success at the end, maybe 45% if you burn a 6th level slot for Greater Dispel. Not good.Counterspelling is almost never done.
***
You have to ready an action to do exactly that. You have to identify the spell, and have the proper spell to counter it prepared or on your list.That is a lot of conditions. You can use Dispel Magic, but then you run into the fact that you have about a 50% or so chance to dispel it. Generally BBEG's are higher level than you, so your odds are worse.
There are some feats floating around to make Counterspelling better, but in my experience most players don't bother and use their action to do something different, like directly SOS the caster they could have counterspelled.
IIRC, my friend has dropped the spell craft check and it made counterspelling a lot faster and more viable. You also needed to be able to cast the spell, but got a bonus if it was memorized or something like that. I know I changed dispel and greater dispel in my house rules.
Even the BBEG wizard at high levels is subject to counterspells, and other tactics by the PCs that can render them far less effective, and if the PCs use them?Counterspelling is almost never done.
"How Counterspells Work...
This is how people in my game counterspell.
PC: "I ready an action to cast a spell he/they begin casting a spell,"
GM: "Okay, he begins casting a spell. What do you want to cast?"
PC: "Lightning bolt!"It works almost every time. :)
tell me they say that over the smoldering corpse of the enemy...
tell me they say that over the smoldering corpse of the enemy...Even the BBEG wizard at high levels is subject to counterspells, and other tactics by the PCs that can render them far less effective, and if the PCs use them?Counterspelling is almost never done.
"How Counterspells Work...
This is how people in my game counterspell.
PC: "I ready an action to cast a spell he/they begin casting a spell,"
GM: "Okay, he begins casting a spell. What do you want to cast?"
PC: "Lightning bolt!"It works almost every time. :)
That does happen on occasion! :D
My group loves blasting spells but not usually for primary offense. Instead, we use blasting spells as spell-disruptors and secondary offense (enemy has like 32 AC at CR 5? Break out the energy damage!). In both cases it tends to work oh so very well.
The average damage on a 5d6 lightning bolt is 17.5. Even if the caster (and most casters do not have great reflex saves as a general rule) makes their save they're probably looking at a DC 18 + spell level Concentration check and a DC 27 + spell level on a whiffed save. Most likely you are not going to handle that check very well.
This is doubly so if you're on the receiving end of a maximized spell, such as with a Book of Harms. 5d6=30. DC 30-40 + spell level or whiff it at 5th level, plus you're likely hurting a lot. It's super because you're not only denying your enemy caster their cake but you're taking a bite out of it too!
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Plus, there is nothing at all preventing a Fighter from buying respectable mental attributes or putting ranks in non-class skills.Well other than their severe multi-ability dependency. They need high Strength to be a threat, high Dexterity for AC and to actually receive any meaningful benefit from their Armor Training class feature, high Constitution to take hits since they lack damage mitigation capabilities, and they need a decent Wisdom because their saves are one step above the worst saves in the game (Constructs have +1/3 in all saves).
While it doesn't prevent them from having strong Intelligence and Charisma it is a pretty strong incentive not to because the Fighter will generally lose far more than he will gain.
This is true, and why using the Advanced Simple Template to reflect having Wished all their stats up is something I tend to do to main villains in general...but is particularly nice for Fighters.
I reiterate my propposing. But lets make it more concrete.
Rules for the party.
- No crafting (it is not about money after all, and the fighter cold also have a wizard cohort for infinite wealth too)
- No rules bending ( if it need GM fiat then no. If it need GM permission then no. that is for example no succubus companion)
- No rules cheesing (if you have to use cheese to prove your point then you not proving anything. We all know there are breakable things in PF, but I am more interesting in more stable games).
- 4 party mebmers, 20 PB, whatever standar race, whatever class, all paizo books, standar WBL, two traits.
- THe party can assume whatever buff with duration longar than an hour.Rules for the encounter
- Boss encounter (it would be CR +4, or perhaps CR+5 if you think fighters are poor BBEG)
- THe fighter will be at least 4 CR higher than his minions. (Because he/she is the BBEG)
- The fighter Will be 25 PB, and have two trait and full WBL for his level (It seems to be a standar practice paizo use for their BBEG).Deal?
Sure, OK. I don't have enough time this week but happy to pit my old Moonscar group against your encounter. They are 4 level 16 characters, no martials. Happy for you to go to CR21.
I suppose the only issue might be what you consider to be rues bending or cheesing? Planar Binding requires very little GM permission as any creature summoned can be compelled to assist however I will leave that to one side. How do you feel about animating the dead? How about Paragon Surge, Dazing Spell, Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell or Spell Perfection? All of them are powerful options, some consider them cheesy. I don't, but I consider them at the top end of the caster power curve.
Cheesy I reserve for people shrinking patches of lava with the Shrink Item spell, using pretty much any form of Simulacrum or attaching hundreds of scrolls of Explosive Runes to their animated minions but tastes on the issue differ.
Planar binding assume that the outisder fails his saves, and, for hte sake of a discussion it also negate the balancing factor of creatures looking for vengeance.
Paragon surge is more or less cheesy as the devs have stated that it was not the intention to allow new spells known.
The metamagic feats does what they do, overpowered perhaps, but they work as intended.
Animating dead assume you defeted the creatures and then in the meantime nobody have destroyed your undeads. But I suppose it would be just Ok.
Paragon surge is more or less cheesy as the devs have stated that it was not the intention to allow new spells known.Actually I don't think they have.. I have raised the issue several times in the Ask James Jacob's thread and had basically no response other than if it is affecting your game change it yourself. As things stand it seems to be acceptable to the devs.
Weird, I woudl swear that I have seen quotes form james that state otherwise.
Animating dead assume you defeted the creatures and then in the meantime nobody have destroyed your undeads. But I suppose it would be just Ok.I would be using bloody skeletons which routinely get better unless someone uses good weapons or holy water on them.
I am not expert in animate dead (since I have never used it as player, and as DM there undead will be just there), but yeah, if it is Ok by the rules.
Paragon surge is more or less cheesy as the devs have stated that it was not the intention to allow new spells known.Actually I don't think they have.. I have raised the issue several times in the Ask James Jacob's thread and had basically no response other than if it is affecting your game change it yourself. As things stand it seems to be acceptable to the devs.
Animating dead assume you defeted the creatures and then in the meantime nobody have destroyed your undeads. But I suppose it would be just Ok.I would be using bloody skeletons which routinely get better unless someone uses good weapons or holy water on them.
Actually Good-aligned weapons and attacks don't do anything special to bloody skeletons. Only positive energy and holy water. They're pretty durable. :)
In fact, my character in our Friday game uses bloody skeletons regularly. She's got a medium white dragon and a giant boar. Both are pretty useful and IMHO bloody skeletons are great for the investment. They personify everything that necromancy is about: waste not, want not.
Paragon surge is more or less cheesy as the devs have stated that it was not the intention to allow new spells known.Actually I don't think they have.. I have raised the issue several times in the Ask James Jacob's thread and had basically no response other than if it is affecting your game change it yourself. As things stand it seems to be acceptable to the devs.
Animating dead assume you defeted the creatures and then in the meantime nobody have destroyed your undeads. But I suppose it would be just Ok.I would be using bloody skeletons which routinely get better unless someone uses good weapons or holy water on them.
Actually Good-aligned weapons and attacks don't do anything special to bloody skeletons. Only positive energy and holy water. They're pretty durable. :)
In fact, my character in our Friday game uses bloody skeletons regularly. She's got a medium white dragon and a giant boar. Both are pretty useful and IMHO bloody skeletons are great for the investment. They personify everything that necromancy is about: waste not, want not.
Or the bless spell, which is pretty common to be active. Of course, it's bedeviling to try to decide whether anything happens while "in the area of a bless spell", since that bit of rules text doesn't even really make much sense. Perhaps the initial burst location?
@ Ashiel; My PCs love/hate the recurring villains that I have. The Wererat halfling rogue that keeps showing up is driving them particularly nutty. But they love her, because she doesn't really cause them harm most of the time. She just messes with them getting to whatever it is they want. That and they've collapsed things on her a few times and she's escaped. (Rats, they can fit through the smallest of cracks!). That and the poncey Elven wizard that shows up, casts a few spells like web, and stinking cloud (Pcs just hit 2nd level), then acts like he's evaluating them and leaves, shaking his head like he's disappointed. I feel sorry for that guy if they ever find him by himself sometime.
Meanwhile, touch attacks in general are super common. They are found on a wide variety of spells (acid arrow, scorching ray, vampiric touch, shocking grasp, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, ghoul's touch, chill touch, touch of idiocy, enervation, bestow curse, etc), a number of strong tactical equipment options (alchemical weapons and nets), and things like alchemist bombs (the encounters we've been having lately would be going sooooo much smoother if we had an alchemist to nuke down everything).
I agree, our party's alchemist in Way of the Wicked is...
da bomb.
This is actually a conversation I had with SKR at some length and he actually agreed that counterspelling is one of the worst subsystems in Pathfinder. It's completely stacked against success at every turn. First you have to choose to spend your turn readying an action to counterspell a specific target. If that specific individual doesn't cast that turn, you've already given up your standard action for absolutely nothing. Then, you have to make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell he's casting (not terribly hard after about 8th level or so, but still a chance for failure), and hope that you know it too and have it memorized so you can shut it down. You can potentially use dispel magic but that's weighted against you since it requires a DC 11 + the spellcaster's level check which you get 1d20 + your caster level to meet. That means he's starting with just over the average of your roll, and adding a level which should generally be 3-4 levels higher than what you're adding to the check, so it's actually a value proposition of a roughly 30% chance of success. That's a standard actiion, a spell slot, and skill related resources so you can actually make your skill check, all for a 30% chance of success at the end, maybe 45% if you burn a 6th level slot for Greater Dispel. Not good.Counterspelling is almost never done.
***
You have to ready an action to do exactly that. You have to identify the spell, and have the proper spell to counter it prepared or on your list.That is a lot of conditions. You can use Dispel Magic, but then you run into the fact that you have about a 50% or so chance to dispel it. Generally BBEG's are higher level than you, so your odds are worse.
There are some feats floating around to make Counterspelling better, but in my experience most players don't bother and use their action to do something different, like directly SOS the caster they could have counterspelled.
Since the Spellcraft check actually takes distance penalties like Perception does, it's not that automatic even at higher levels if you aren't up close and personal (and how often does an arcanist deliberately get up close and personal with the encounter?). I've seen 14th level PCs fail it (not to counterspell but just to ID; I don't recall a PC ever counterspelling a foe in our campaign ever) due to distance.
Even the BBEG wizard at high levels is subject to counterspells, and other tactics by the PCs that can render them far less effective, and if the PCs use them?Counterspelling is almost never done.
*snip*
There are some feats floating around to make Counterspelling better, but in my experience most players don't bother and use their action to do something different, like directly SOS the caster they could have counterspelled.
While I agree it isn't that commonly used, it is used occacionally, especially if you know the opposition has some key spell they build their tactic around. It's especially good if the counterspeller has a wide spell knowledge but is a bit lower-level.
Consider that the party sorc is big on Dazing Fireball (as an example). The BBEG just needs a pair of 5th level casters with one fireball prepared each to put a severe crank in the wheel for that caster (of course there are counters/circumventions to this too, like with anything).
For BBEGs that are lawful (or parties which don't mind asmodeus worship, ughh) Ordered Mind is only a single feat and makes counterspelling for cohorts and similar a much more effective endeavor.
Likewise, at higher level, if the party knows the BBEG is a pit fiend, having a cohort prepare Greater Teleport can hinder their movement a lot, and preferably a bunch of other spells as well that are likely to show up on the balor's summoned allies.
Plus, there is nothing at all preventing a Fighter from buying respectable mental attributes or putting ranks in non-class skills.Well other than their severe multi-ability dependency. They need high Strength to be a threat, high Dexterity for AC and to actually receive any meaningful benefit from their Armor Training class feature, high Constitution to take hits since they lack damage mitigation capabilities, and they need a decent Wisdom because their saves are one step above the worst saves in the game (Constructs have +1/3 in all saves).
While it doesn't prevent them from having strong Intelligence and Charisma it is a pretty strong incentive not to because the Fighter will generally lose far more than he will gain.
While this is true for players, it's not necessarily true for BBEGs since the GM could give them whatever stats they feel fit the character. Of course, it means fighters require more work from the GM to make valid threats, but it isn't impossible.
I reiterate my propposing. But lets make it more concrete.
Rules for the party.
- No crafting (it is not about money after all, and the fighter cold also have a wizard cohort for infinite wealth too)
- No rules bending ( if it need GM fiat then no. If it need GM permission then no. that is for example no succubus companion)
- No rules cheesing (if you have to use cheese to prove your point then you not proving anything. We all know there are breakable things in PF, but I am more interesting in more stable games).
- 4 party mebmers, 20 PB, whatever standar race, whatever class, all paizo books, standar WBL, two traits.
- THe party can assume whatever buff with duration longar than an hour.Rules for the encounter
- Boss encounter (it would be CR +4, or perhaps CR+5 if you think fighters are poor BBEG)
- THe fighter will be at least 4 CR higher than his minions. (Because he/she is the BBEG)
- The fighter Will be 25 PB, and have two trait and full WBL for his level (It seems to be a standar practice paizo use for their BBEG).Deal?
I'll take the challenge. I should have all the characters posted up by tomorrow at latest.
EDIT: What level do you want the party to be? I'm thinking of making them level 8 characters
Take your time. I have to work on my theses today and tomorrow I have to grade exams, so I will not have the encoutner until thursday or friday.
Make then whatever level you want. DO you want hte fight CR +4 or CR +5?
Also, do nt post your characters here, As I want to create a generic BBEG not just one that attack your party weakness.
Also, My goal is to create a challenging and fun encounter. If your party get crush in the way so be it, but that is not the primary goal.
I already have the BBEG and have planned the encoutner, but I need to finish some NPC minions