We have been playing Carrion Crown for the last 2+ years and only made it to the begining of the 5th book before everyone including the GM simply lost interest.
Is this a "normal" time investment for an AP for most people ?
I feel that some of this was due to chronically unprepared players...
I'm going to be GM'ing Shattered Star for our table.
and want to make sure I'm saving myself time...and was wondering what time saving tips other GM's might use ?
For example, I like to have a laminated spread sheet with random D20 rolls that I can just check off as I go rather than rolling every time I need a D20 roll.
Even if you don't have any time sharing tips to share, I would be interested in how long on average it takes your group to go through an entire AP...and how often/long you play each sitting ?
The timing depends a lot on the GM in my experience. I tend to run 6 to 8 hour sessions when I play at a table, and I tend to finish a book in two sessions occasionally 2 and a half.
There are several factors such as the amount of roleplaying, how well the players and GM know the rules so they dont have to refer to any books. How well a player knows his character, and is he prepared. To be more specific with being prepared did he level his character up between sessions. How long does it take the player to decide on his actions once combat start?<---Another factor.
For myself I don't really care for RP'ing buying things as a GM. Item approval is generally handled between sessions so that when we meet and the game starts the players can go buy the time, and take up a lot less game time, than if I have to approve every item right then.
For character sheets I prefer for players with things like Power Attack to have the normal and Power Attack modifiers in place to make math go by faster, and if certain players are slow with number have someone else do the math for them.
If a player wants to summon monsters then I like for them to have the stats ready in advance. That speeds things up also. Every group I am in goes into sidebar conversations that have nothing to do with the game. Keeping them below 15 minutes also helps.
What was taking so long in the other game to get to book 5? Did you play every week, every other week, once per month?
I prefer to play at least twice a month. If you go for more than 2 weeks without playing people tend to forget things.
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Index cards are the greatest tool for a GM bar none. Seriously, they are great for monster stats, initiative order, magical item stats, NPC trivia... you name it, an index card can do it for only $1 for a 100+ pack. It helps things go faster. I tend to write monster stats on my cards with basic blurbs, writing HP and other important stats in red pen. Seriously, get index cards and you won't regret it.
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We are wrapping up CC this week (hopefully). We play 2x a month for the past 2.5 years. I would say our sessions average 4 hours. Sometimes longer sometimes shorter.
I dont have an issue with the time it has taken. We have all had a really good time with the AP. We are however ready to end the campaign and start over. I get to play this time as I pass the reigns. Jade Regent cant wait!
Tips,
Use advancement track, drop XP.
Level between sessions never during.
Its a team game! GM needs to bring the fun, but players need to help keep things interesting too.
I use a laptop to organize my notes, track combats, and use dice roller. This is very handy and saves a ton of table space. I realize this cramps some peeps style but its made running games tons easier for me.
Can you maybe elaborate on some of the unprepared player issues? Also, maybe tell us why your group lost interest?
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Index cards are the greatest tool for a GM bar none. Seriously, they are great for monster stats, initiative order, magical item stats, NPC trivia... you name it, an index card can do it for only $1 for a 100+ pack. It helps things go faster. I tend to write monster stats on my cards with basic blurbs, writing HP and other important stats in red pen. Seriously, get index cards and you won't regret it.I used to do that, but my collection got so large (5 boxes, and I needed to buy two new ones) I ended up copying what was on the index cards onto computer files, and reluctantly DM with a laptop.
The last time I played Pathfinder, I also brought my laptop (druid, used lots of summons), but otherwise I don't use it for playing.
I am the same way. Laptop always when I GM. Paper and dice when I play. *Tablets are nice for fast rule look up.
I don't like laptops at the table, especially when I GM. They get in the way and are distracting. I have a Kindle and phone for rules look-up.
As for storing index cards, I just kind of throw my used ones away when I finish them, so I never have room issues. I've kept some over the years, but not a lot.
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these others have all touched on some good advice. my group is going through Carrion Crown and we play every other weekend for about 8-10 hours each session. We are older gamers and tend to be sticklers for the precise wording of the rules. We realize this slows us down (not counting the normal delay that age throws in there too) but want to make sure that we are using the RAW.
To combat some of our pace issues we have also developed a few things that help mitigate this slowness. They are:
- Enforcing a rule that you roll "to hit" & damage together - its amazing how much time looking for your damage dice can add up over the course of a game.
- We'll reuse initiatives from combat to combat. This helps to remind everyone when they are supposed to take their turn and be prepared for that turn.
- From time to time, we will have people sit in initiative order and tap the guy next to him when he is done. This speeds the combats tremendously and if people like to switch it up, we re-seat at breaks for food/snacks.
- I use DM's Familiar when I run and it helps a lot to manage keeping track of combats and even Campaign Details. Hero Lab is also a recent purchase that I think may help me with my time.
- We sometimes use a dry-erase board to show the initiative order and buffs which are active.
Hope these help somewhat.
Nifty
I have never played a full Ap, but I have done a few. Based on a once a week bases it is about 1-2 months per book, (But takes longer because of canceled games)
Games:
Curse of the Crimson Throne over a year not done with book 3
at most 2 times a month over the web.
Wrath of the Righteous near end of book 2 started in December
Once a week, for 4 hours each (but missed about 5 games due to holidays and snow)
Hope that helps.
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The time frame doesn't necessarily seem all that long in my opinion, but it all depends on how long and how often you are playing. My group meets about every two weeks (work/vacations/holidays permitting) and we usually game for about 4-5 hours. The current campaign is going on about 5 years I believe (different system but I don't think it really changes much from system to system imho).
A lot just depends on how your groups runs. My group tends to be very beer and pretzels. We are all working adults with busy schedules, so just getting together to talk and hang out is the main impetus. That of course means a lot of down time at the table though which will naturally make things go longer.
As for how to speed things up, just a few suggestions in addition to what others have posted (in no real order):
1. Have a list of potential NPC names ready to go and check them off as you need them. The APs do a good job of providing most of the NPCs you need to know, but you always have a player that wants to know the name of the random guard, the beggar, etc. Having a list ready to go not only makes the game go faster, but it makes the world more immersive. Keeps the players on their toes to an extent as well since nothing screams "unimportant NPC" louder than the DM having to take a moment to come up with a name.
2. Roll attack and damage together. It's just as easy to roll them at the same time and you'd be surprised at how much time it will save over the course of a campaign.
3. Let the players know the target number for AC, etc. That way they can often save "math time" just by knowing whether or not its an easy critter to hit. If they know they only need about a 5 to hit, when they roll the 18 there's no need to add up all the modifiers.
4. Award treasure at the beginning of a session. (Note, this is really only useful if you have one or two habitually late players). Nothing will get them to the table on time like the fear of missing out on a sweet item.
5. Divide the GM duties between your players. Maybe have one track initiative for instance while another is responsible for spell/effect timers, etc. You have a lot on your plate already, don't be afraid to get help.
6. Get your players to think about their actions throughout the round. Nothing will grind a combat to a halt like the player that has to spend 5 minutes thinking about what they want to do. Not only does it slow down the flow, but it causes the rest of the group to lose focus too. It might sound harsh, but if a player is taking particularly long, don't be afraid to say "You delay, let me know when you decide what you want to do. Steve, you're up!" I guarantee you the players will start to speed up their decision making.
7. Convince your players to come prepared. This sounds obvious, but figuring out how to do it is challenging. The easiest way, in my opinion though is to simply start when everyone/enough is there. If Player A hasn't finished leveling up, well, he plays with what he has until he is done. Again, nothing will change behavior better than a player knowing he was at a disadvantage due to his own lack of preparation.
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I am running the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition.
January was the 1-year mark, and we are right now in book 3.
We average 1 session a month, for 6 hours per session.
And we play via virtual tabletop, because my group is in 4 different time zones.
Things we do to maximize the time spent at the 'table'
* RP in forums/chat/email, with transcripts posted to Obsidian Portal for others to react to.
* Level-up between sessions.
* Emply a Co-DM. Someone to play some of the monsters/NPCs in combat, or look up rules during a session. this is hard, because a lot of time people would rather Play OR DM their own.
* Start Time is Start Time. If your session starts at 1400, then at 1400 stuff starts happening.
Some things I do for now.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
It sounds like we are not really that far off the mark as far as time goes.
We play every other weekend, for about eight hours.
We do have a very mixed group...some experienced players, and some newbies...
One was so new (first time in fact) that he had to look every option he had up before deciding what he wanted to do.
Another with a bit more experience, but who tends to neglect leveling up, and writting everything on his character sheet.
So we wasted as much as three hours each session, just waiting for people to decide what they where doing on a given round.
Some of the time saving advice is very helpfull....thanks, and keep them comming :)
Tips,
Use advancement track, drop XP.
Could you explain ?
What do you mean by "advancement track" instead of XP ?
Tips,
Use advancement track, drop XP.Could you explain ?
What do you mean by "advancement track" instead of XP ?
The more recent APs have an "advancement track" stating where in each chapter characters are expected to have earned enough XP to level up. It typically looks something like this:
2nd level: The PCs should reach 2nd level just after defeating the evil clown and solving the mystery of the haunted carnival.
3rd level: The PCs should reach 3rd level early in the Roller Coaster dungeon, or perhaps even at the ticket booth.
4th level: The PCs should reach 4th level by the conclusion of this chapter.
The advantage is that you know the PCs are the level the AP expects them to be at any given point, and that you don't have to track (individual or collective) xp.
The downside is that some players feel less incentive to do optional quests or tasks since they won't get additional xp for it, and it kind of underlines the fairly railroady nature of APs.
Personally I do use the advancement track to give my characters levels and I've had no issues with it.
Huh...I had seen that in the AP's...but had no idea that it could be used as a replacement to XP.
I though it was just letting you know how much XP they should have earned by that point.
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Our timetable (sessions every other week alternating campaigns and GMs, also slight player variations week to week but largely pooling from the same eight players)
Council of Thieves 14 months - The first premade I ever ran, probably would go much faster now.
Kingmaker 18 months - We spent 7 months in book 2.
Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition - 13 months, my favorite game so far.
Carrion Crown - 25 months. It was a slog. I was a player in this one, and when we finished and looked back on it, we decided we hated it. Probably the way the other GM ran it.
Wrath of the Righteous - 2 months in and finishing book 2. (I accelerated the pace in Book 1 to take 2 sessions, it was fun but I ran it almost as a prologue.)
The difference in me running Runelords vs running Kingmaker and Council of Thieves is that I stopped caring about handing out XP and instead went by the XP track in the front of the book. I occasionally handwave encounters that the party won't have any trouble with whatsoever. I turn these into Action Scenes were myself and the party decide how this would go down, we act out and roleplay the action, then they check off used resources.
So when using the advancement track...how do you handle players that goof up or fail an encounter ?
Just delay advancement by a few encounters ?
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So when using the advancement track...how do you handle players that goof up or fail an encounter ?
Just delay advancement by a few encounters ?
I believe the advancement track expects the party to occasionally screw up or miss/ignore optional quests.
My party tends to "hoover" APs for optional quests and objectives, both because they enjoy exploring everything and because they like xp, treasure etc.If I hadn't used the advancement track for level progression they would typically be at least one level higher than the AP suggests at any point.
I am far more interested in story, character, and good role play.
I dislike heavy focus on optimizing, or min maxing.
Some of the folks in our group are more "bash the monster" and "loot the bodies"...or heavily focused on optimization..but I chalk that up to the bulk of their experience being more with video games than role playing games.
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When you drop XP, then the PCs are more focused on actually advancing the story, instead of grinding for XP.
This plays to your mentioned style of gaming.
If you want to have some kind of "reward", then consider Hero Points, and award them for clever problem solving, and whatnot.
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- The fewer the books, the faster things go. When a PC's feats and spells are spread across a dozen different books, it can take a long time to look up. At this point, I'd strongly consider limiting to the Core, the APG and the adventure path itself.
I find this needlessly restrictive, but then again at my table the players have free access to PFSRD/PRD - any uncertainty can be answered quickly and efficiently by searching for it.
One alternate option that is somewhat less restrictive but still cuts down on the "where's my PF Companion: Sargava book" moments is to require players to have printouts of all feats, spells etc on hand if they're not found in the core rules set.
Keeping an A4 sheet or three with detailed rules on hand is very handy. You could even go the extra mile and get spell cards!
When you drop XP, then the PCs are more focused on actually advancing the story, instead of grinding for XP.
This plays to your mentioned style of gaming.
If you want to have some kind of "reward", then consider Hero Points, and award them for clever problem solving, and whatnot.
Now that I'm aware of the option...and have given it some thought I really like the idea of going this route.
I can use the Fame and Prestige system in Shattered Star to reward good role play...or the occasional little trinket the player wants for his character concept.
I tend to run 6 to 8 hour sessions when I play at a table, and I tend to finish a book in two sessions occasionally 2 and a half.I need to ask, you finish one of the books of an AP in 2 sessions? Can you explain to me how you get that done? I may not have been playing long, but that seems like it's VERY fast to get through an entire book.
I think we averaged a chapter in 2 or 3 sessions....that does seem pretty fast :(
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I also keep a "blue book" of regularly referenced rules.
This is just parts of d20pfsrd, printed out, and sometimes cropped/edited for space.
Listing conditions, and bonuses.
It changes from campaign, to campaign, and player builds.
Example: When we had a Demoralize focused Inquisitor in the group, we had the Intimidate rules in the book.
It was nice, as it was smaller than the Core, and anyone could nab it, and reference it.
You could build your own "blue book" if that works for you.
I do something similar - I keep specific pages on PFSRD bookmarked and organized. For instance I keep the spell description of every spell known by my bard in a folder, that kind of thing.