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I like psionics, I allow them in my campaigns, but I don't use them RAW. I have some problems with some powers, namely psychic reformation, schism, temporal acceleration, and some others. I mostly play 3.5, so energy powers are still a problem because of the "trololo I change energy type at whim" and "trololo rogue, roll Fortitude half instead of Reflex half". I also got allowed metapsionics to work with their rightful costs (empower is 4 pp, maximize is 6 pp, quicken is 8 pp and things like that) but they don't spend the psionic focus. Overchannel is also something I prefer not to allow.
Once I get those in check a little bit, I'm fine with psionics, mostly.
As for flavour, I've always liked X-men, especially Jean Grey and professor Xavier, so I can't help to like psionics. I occasionally treat psionics as Dragonlance mystics.
I replaced "power stones" with "psionic mantras" and got rid of most of the crystal stuff.
3.0 doesn't count either, D&D didn't 'figure out' d20 psionics until 3.5
I actually have the 3.0 Psionics Handbook and ya.. the mental combat stuff was a complete mess as was the different stat for casting per discipline... ya 3.0 had some real problems. 3.5 managed to just nail everything though, even managing to add the immediate action to the game and the excellence that is augmentation. Now admittedly, it did have the much maligned (with good reason) Soulknife, but Dreamscarred Press has managed to fix even that. Hell I actually want to roll up a Soulknife at some point, though its going to have to be after a Soulthief Vitalist, since I used to love playing a "Healer" Psion with Empathic Transfer and Vigor.
The point is that unless you don't unlike Sorcerer's in your games, you should be fine to use Psionics, since their optimization ceiling doesn't go above that. They are just a lot harder to mess up then a Sorcerer. I mean you can pick a bunch of useless spells on Sorcerer, but again that doesn't mean the Sorcerer is weak, just that weak options are weak.I don't have a problem with Sorcerers, I really don't have a problem with Psionics. My only problem is that too me, psionics is pretty much redundant, unless you design your setting from the ground up to incorporate them into the history. For example, I could not imagine Arcanis or Eberron without psionics, even though they both have traditional magic. On the other hand, I see no reason to incorporate it as a standard part of the Golarion setting. There might be some outlying area where using he mechanics makes sense. and it would have to be a campaign using that area for me to allow general use of psionics if I was doing a Golarion AP.
I see where you're going, for the most part I don't use many third party material for Adventure Paths, while with homebrew settings I go all out.
As far as redundancy, that was my main problem but after reading up on the OGC, they do fill in a number of holes when it comes to representing concepts mechanically so I'm leaning more towards buying it when I collect the extra money.
I love psionics and the main reason is the feel of the system. I like the flexibility of the "point system" and the use of psionic focus and feats to allow martials to occasionally shine. Further, in my opinion the psychic warrior is the best "fighter/mage" available in 3.5/pathfinder.
Further, in my opinion the psychic warrior is the best "fighter/mage" available in 3.5/pathfinder.You haven't really played a magus, have you?
As someone who played a Magus to 17th level, and who loves the class, I still prefer PWar.
Or Duskblade...
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My complaint with Magus is that it pigeonholes you into one tactic and one tactic only. Psychic Warrior however lets you do a lot of different builds and actually compliments those abilities. Want to shoot off some Arrows? Plenty of powers buff your damage and hit to help with that. Want to to get up close and personal while still full attacking? Psionic Lion's Charge has your back. Want to kill people with your Bear Hands? Claws of the Beast is so awesome you can be the King of Smack. Want to use some power you don't normally get access to (or multiple powers)? Expanded Knowledge lets you hack discipline list for sweet goodies. Oh and Dreamscarred gave it class features, which is really just icing on the cake.
Really it just does so much. Easily one of my top choices for best designed class of all time.
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One of the benefits of psionics vs magic when it comes to new players, if they don't have the 'perfect counter' for the situation, a psionic can almost always fall back on blasting, while a prepared caster won't and a Spontaneous caster is likely to only have a couple of elemental blasting spells (i.e. fireball).
This tends to make psionics appear 'op' to new players as the psionic is almost always going to have something decent he can do to contribute to a fight, while an unprepared Wizard or a badly designed Sorcerer won't.
everything that counters a wizard, counters a psion, and a psion just doesn't have the plot shattering potential a wizard, let alone a cleric, druid or even witch has.
yes, Psions can fall back on blasting better than most non-specialized blasters. but their blasts don't scale, and well, psion effects are often placed at a slightly higher level requirement than their arcane counterparts.
Psions have nothing Resembling Haste. the best 3rd level spell in the game. but if they did have a haste alike, it would probably be a 5th level power that most likely equires 6PP of augmentation to get the effect of a 3rd level spell, which equivalent to 5PP Versus 15PP
I think Umbriere may have hit on something that is really revealing about psionics, which I think we've all known for a while.
Psionics doesn't play well with others. I don't mean the systems don't mesh, I mean there aren't a lot of party or single target buffs. Where a really good 2nd level Wizard spell might be Create Pit or Glitterdust, which debuff the enemy and make them easier for the melee to kill, perform crowd control, etc.
A lot of psionics is direct damage or save or die/lose.
And because it has minimal out of combat utility, it saves its PP for combat when nova'ing is really noticeable. A wizard might "nova" out of combat, putting up a lot of daily buffs that make him and the party immune to stuff, but a Psion sorta showboats.
From what I understand, some new powers and classes have addressed this erstwhile failure of the psionics rules, but it's probably one reason why critical perceptions are so prevalent.
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Glitterdust is save or lose and it affects golems too. in fact, against most of the golem or construct entries, Glitterdust simply becomes "You Just Lost. unless you can fish a crit."
but Yeah, that was my point, a lot of Psionic Powers aren't very party friendly, they are mostly direct damage and save or lose.
there are like 2 healing oriented psionic powers, and unless you are a vitalist with wisdom and levels out the wazoo, your healing is inferior to a cleric's channel energy at the same level, and even then, it doesn't play nice with abilities that augment healing and the vitalist does a better job of mimicking a vampire, than they do, being a proper JRPG healer. think of Shadow Priests and Mistweaver monks in World or Warcraft, and you basically see what a vitalist is good at. forcefully draining health from enemies to heal allies.
but otherwise, Psionics isn't very party friendly, and when you happen to be a vitalist, you can build the wisdom to hold at 1st level, no more than 5 people plus yourself in the collective.
Glitterdust isn't save or lose? News to me.
I guess I'm making a rhetorical distinction that's not generally agreed upon.
Glitterdust, Slow, etc. are save or suck. Depending on the level of play and circumstances, it could just be a disadvantage. They're heavy debuffs, but depending on the situation you can live through it. Just as a party that gets glitterdusted doesn't automatically TPK.
Save or Lose is like sleep ego whip or hold person.
And I'm not saying magic DOESN'T have those things, I'm saying psionics has less debuffs than just I WIN moves.
Glitterdust isn't save or lose? News to me.I guess I'm making a rhetorical distinction that's not generally agreed upon.
Glitterdust, Slow, etc. are save or suck. Depending on the level of play and circumstances, it could just be a disadvantage. They're heavy debuffs, but depending on the situation you can live through it. Just as a party that gets glitterdusted doesn't automatically TPK.
Save or Lose is like sleep ego whip or hold person.
And I'm not saying magic DOESN'T have those things, I'm saying psionics has less debuffs than just I WIN moves.
a lot of the more irksome and hindering penalties, like Blindness or Staggered, are definitely conditions that if they last more than a round or 2, is plenty of time to invalidate their actions and leave them dead to full attacks. a lot of save or sucks, basically are, save or lose. especially arcane ones.
And what, pray tell, is the point of haste for a caster?
Extra movement? It is to laugh.
I dunno I just kinda use it on all my summons, seems to work out pretty well most of the time.
And what, pray tell, is the point of haste for a caster?
Extra movement? It is to laugh.
a drastic damage boost to all your minions, a buff to your fly speed, and a massive buff to the pounce lanes of any pouncing monster you summon.
the issue with physical acceleration, is it doesn't do enough to compete with haste, and is primarily for psionic warriors.
it doesn't have the mass minion boosting powers haste does, and Psions, even shapers, can't produce anywhere near the minion volume of a wizard.
Psions do have a haste equivalent (Physical Acceleration) . . . but it is self-only. A Vitalist can manifest it on others, for +1 PP per extra target.everything that counters a wizard, counters a psion, and a psion just doesn't have the plot shattering potential a wizard, let alone a cleric, druid or even witch has.
yes, Psions can fall back on blasting better than most non-specialized blasters. but their blasts don't scale, and well, psion effects are often placed at a slightly higher level requirement than their arcane counterparts.
Psions have nothing Resembling Haste. the best 3rd level spell in the game. but if they did have a haste alike, it would probably be a 5th level power that most likely equires 6PP of augmentation to get the effect of a 3rd level spell, which equivalent to 5PP Versus 15PP
7PP +1PP per additional target, so in a 4 person party with a 1 combat pet, cohort or mount, a reasonable assumption for 4 player group. it costs as much as a 6th level spell or 11PP. while the wizard is getting his 3 companions, the pet, cohort or mount, himself, and up to 6 of his summoned monsters
plus he has more game changers, than the lowly vitalist whom does a better job of being a wannabe Jiang Shi.
a drastic damage boost to all your minions, a buff to your fly speed, and a massive buff to the pounce lanes of any pouncing monster you summon.
the issue with physical acceleration, is it doesn't do enough to compete with haste, and is primarily for psionic warriors.
it doesn't have the mass minion boosting powers haste does, and Psions, even shapers, can't produce anywhere near the minion volume of a wizard.
By minions, do you mean teammates? lolz
Psionics does have a disadvantage in terms of aiding the party out; that's why I tend to view them as being more of a tank or blaster role. They can provide support in drawing heat off other people, such as the cleric or mage, but overall their main abilities are combat.
Though, sending astral constructs out to aid the fighter is a very viable tactic...
By minions, do you mean teammates? lolza drastic damage boost to all your minions, a buff to your fly speed, and a massive buff to the pounce lanes of any pouncing monster you summon.
the issue with physical acceleration, is it doesn't do enough to compete with haste, and is primarily for psionic warriors.
it doesn't have the mass minion boosting powers haste does, and Psions, even shapers, can't produce anywhere near the minion volume of a wizard.
i'm including the Wizard's Minions, which is a Mashup of 'Teamates' and Summons. yes, when you are a wizard, your teamates are little more than minions and all they do, is pull the trigger on the guy you just crippled with lotsa penalties.
Further, in my opinion the psychic warrior is the best "fighter/mage" available in 3.5/pathfinder.You haven't really played a magus, have you?
I have played a magus and they are nice for what they do. In the Pathfinder system they are about as close as you can get. In comparison, however, the magus is a very limited spellcaster. I think part of this is due to the inherent flexibility of the point system vs the vancian system. The PW plays more like a martial cleric if you want to compare power levels.
Nothing "wrong" with the magus, just not as good in my opinion.
Lets look at Wizards and Psions based on what they contribue well at
Wizards are quite flexible, and can summon better creatures than a Psion, are better at buffing, debuffing and battlefield control, and are well, worse at Nova Blasting but better at Metamagic and cheap effects. their strength comes in their many roles, and a crowd control and buffer style wizard, when played right, is better than a blaster style wizard. with enough intelligence, they can use powerful save or sucks, or simply save or lose, and they can use more of their abilities than a psion can, because they still have all of their lower level slots, and a lot of those spells, are pretty darn powerful
Psions are like less flexibile sorcerers, the majority of their power list, is either toned down versions of wizard spells with a huge cost attached, or blasts that only get more expensive as they level up and blasting is impractical for the psion too. well, they have save or sucks on par with a wizard, but other than having blasts with flexible energy types, they aren't much better at blasting, because any metamagic they use, comes out of the PP they spend to augment their blasts. making their blasts weaker
essentially, Wizards when played right, are Sun Tzu, while Psions are essentially a crappier Orion. Psions are very similar to Warmages, with the exception there were Warmage builds that kicked the Psion's Bum at combat blasting while having more utility.
Psions are very similar to Warmages, with the exception there were Warmage builds that kicked the Psion's Bum at combat blasting while having more utility.This is outright wrong. Psion's are probably most maligned for damage (because its the most obvious thing to look at) but really, the psion class FAR outstrips the warmage. The best comparison for the psion really is the Sorcerer, who suffers from a little bit less flexibility (due to lack of augmentation) but has superior powers in general.
Note: this is all assuming that by 'warmage' you are referring to the 3.5 base class.
Warmage was definitely a 3.5 class, and i must have been mistaking Rainbow Servant levels for Warmage levels. i mean the two were literally made to mesh together, i don't know anybody whom played a warmage whom neither had rainbow servant levels nor planned to acquire them, so i consider Rainbow Servant to be part of the core of the Warmage class in my headcanon.
when i think Warmage, i Think Warmage/Rainbow Servant
but 3.5 classes shouldn't clutter my thoughts
Edit; but i rate sorcerer as more powerful than Psion too, purely due to how Pathfinder Writes the Vancian system to work and how the sorcerer, is a spontaneous caster using the vancian system, which is a more powerful system than a psion using their highly restricted JRPG style power point system that doesn't even do much more than a limited version of a cheap imitation of a JRPG caster, and not very well.
but then, the only Psions i played with, have been blasters whom Run out of power points by the 2nd encounter of the day, while being venerable Elan's with Favored Class to power points and Absurd intellect. they were still inferior to a sorcerer when the sorcerer could do things besides blasting or save or sucks.
sorcerers could buff, battlefield control and debuff pretty well, and abuse metamagic much more easily.
yes, one of my gaming buddies played a Psion with an Intelligence of 26 at level 4. with the aging penalties halved, he still wasn't doing very well at level 16 with a 38 int either. he was Nova Blasting to hopefully deal signifficant damage, but he couldn't keep up with the sorcerer whom could haste the party and researched a 3rd level spell for giving the whole party pounce for a round per level with all the limitations of haste, which he called "Aspect of the Jaguar"
Psions are very similar to Warmages, with the exception there were Warmage builds that kicked the Psion's Bum at combat blasting while having more utility.This is outright wrong. Psion's are probably most maligned for damage (because its the most obvious thing to look at) but really, the psion class FAR outstrips the warmage. The best comparison for the psion really is the Sorcerer, who suffers from a little bit less flexibility (due to lack of augmentation) but has superior powers in general.
Note: this is all assuming that by 'warmage' you are referring to the 3.5 base class.
Warmage was definitely a 3.5 class, and i must have been mistaking Rainbow Servant levels for Warmage levels. i mean the two were literally made to mesh together, i don't know anybody whom played a warmage whom neither had rainbow servant levels nor planned to acquire them, so i consider Rainbow Servant to be part of the core of the Warmage class in my headcanon.
when i think Warmage, i Think Warmage/Rainbow Servant
but 3.5 classes shouldn't clutter my thoughts
Edit; but i rate sorcerer as more powerful than Psion too, purely due to how Pathfinder Writes the Vancian system to work and how the sorcerer, is a spontaneous caster using the vancian system, which is a more powerful system than a psion using their highly restricted JRPG style power point system that doesn't even do much more than a limited version of a cheap imitation of a JRPG caster, and not very well.
but then, the only Psions i played with, have been blasters whom Run out of power points by the 2nd encounter of the day, while being venerable Elan's with Favored Class to power points and Absurd intellect. they were still inferior to a sorcerer when the sorcerer could do things besides blasting or save or sucks.
sorcerers could buff, battlefield control and debuff pretty well, and abuse metamagic much more easily.
yes, one of my gaming buddies played a Psion with an Intelligence...
Especially with Paizo giving so many things to Sorcerers to increase their versatility, like Pages of Spell Knowledge.
Warmage was definitely a 3.5 class, and i must have been mistaking Rainbow Servant levels for Warmage levels. i mean the two were literally made to mesh together, i don't know anybody whom played a warmage whom neither had rainbow servant levels nor planned to acquire them, so i consider Rainbow Servant to be part of the core of the Warmage class in my headcanon.when i think Warmage, i Think Warmage/Rainbow Servant
Seriously? In every single campaign, there actually was a hidden jungle temples of the couatls AND it was trivially easy to find the hidden jungle temples of the couatls?
Seriously? In every single campaign, there actually was a hidden jungle temples of the couatls AND it was trivially easy to find the hidden jungle temples of the couatls?
Warmage was definitely a 3.5 class, and i must have been mistaking Rainbow Servant levels for Warmage levels. i mean the two were literally made to mesh together, i don't know anybody whom played a warmage whom neither had rainbow servant levels nor planned to acquire them, so i consider Rainbow Servant to be part of the core of the Warmage class in my headcanon.when i think Warmage, i Think Warmage/Rainbow Servant
the hidden jungle part was hand waved, you just had to have peaceful contact with a Coatl, which could be as simple as using planar binding, because the warmage player complained that the jungle thing was too setting specific
it didn't say peaceful contact with all coatls, just peaceful contact with A Coatl, and well, that could be as simple as paying an NPC wizard to bind a Coatl for a night of Tequila Binging.
just like the whole, "you must be an elf" was removed from arcane archer. there wasn't hidden jungle temples, just things were houseruled, and even then, a lot of the groups i am in, tend to travel the globe a lot, as well as a great deal of plane hopping, but alignment restrictions, race restrictions and setting restrictions were removed on most prestige classes, the jungle thing, was considered a setting restriction, it was changed to "Peaceful Encounter with A Coatl"
thing was, Coatls were pretty peaceful because most of them were drunk on Tequila, or at least the ones we often bound.
even then, it just takes a temple in a jungle in one country in a whole world, any character of 6th level or higher, could have found such a settlement at least once in their lives, nay, 4th level or higher.
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Yeah, my play experience is that of having weird roleplay prerequisites handwaived as a matter of course.
Yeah, my play experience is that of having weird roleplay prerequisites handwaived as a matter of course.
same here, with the exception of non-setting-specific prerequisites that are easy to accomplish at the earliest level you meet the requirements, or are changed to such things
find the "hidden jungle temple of the Coatls" was turned into "have a peaceful encounter with at least, a Coatl and make a vow of service." which can be as simple as "paying a wizard to bind a coatl for you to enjoy a few hours of drunken hangout if you pay for the booze" at the very least.
Yeah, my play experience is that of having weird roleplay prerequisites handwaived as a matter of course.
Or if they're not handwaved, the GM and player talk it over, and the GM includes a plot hook to fulfill those requirements around the time that the player want entry into the PrC.
Psion are not really overpowered. A caster Wilder are a bit on the strong side when they get working but are balanced by their unreliability. What is really "bugged" of the psionics are the "martial" style characters.
Wilder focused on self buffing gets to really absurds amount of CA, to hit and damage with very few risks. Soulknife have really obscene ability like using WIS for hit, damage and CA on top of having fullplate and doing 20 stat damage in one round. They can also have 15-20 x3 crit range. Psionic warriors get pounce at level 4 and lets not forget Vigor, witch is basically half an heal spell available at level 1 and precastable.
Depends on level, Soulknife takes a little more to come online, but when it does is cheeserific.
Seriously? In every single campaign, there actually was a hidden jungle temples of the couatls AND it was trivially easy to find the hidden jungle temples of the couatls?
Warmage was definitely a 3.5 class, and i must have been mistaking Rainbow Servant levels for Warmage levels. i mean the two were literally made to mesh together, i don't know anybody whom played a warmage whom neither had rainbow servant levels nor planned to acquire them, so i consider Rainbow Servant to be part of the core of the Warmage class in my headcanon.when i think Warmage, i Think Warmage/Rainbow Servant
the hidden jungle part was hand waved, you just had to have peaceful contact with a Coatl, which could be as simple as using planar binding, because the warmage player complained that the jungle thing was too setting specific
it didn't say peaceful contact with all coatls, just peaceful contact with A Coatl, and well, that could be as simple as paying an NPC wizard to bind a Coatl for a night of Tequila Binging.
just like the whole, "you must be an elf" was removed from arcane archer. there wasn't hidden jungle temples, just things were houseruled, and even then, a lot of the groups i am in, tend to travel the globe a lot, as well as a great deal of plane hopping, but alignment restrictions, race restrictions and setting restrictions were removed on most prestige classes, the jungle thing, was considered a setting restriction, it was changed to "Peaceful Encounter with A Coatl"
thing was, Coatls were pretty peaceful because most of them were drunk on Tequila, or at least the ones we often bound.
even then, it just takes a temple in a jungle in one country in a whole world, any character of 6th level or higher, could have found such a settlement at least once in their lives, nay, 4th level or higher.
And, see that's how things get out of hand. That PrC is very powerful, as you said a "must do", almost unbalancing, yet the DM simply handwaved "Must find the hidden jungle temples of the couatls." Note, that doesnt include calling one up on the phone. :-)
Excuse me, are you claiming that finding a hidden jungle temple was a balancing factor? I'm pretty sure PrCs with RP requirements aren't designed to be stronger than PrCs without RP requirements.
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Call Jimmy Johns and see where they delivered to Mr Couatl.
I'm not really sure that's how things get out of hand. If a PC wants to get into a PRC during a campaign, the DM preventing the narrative from doing so is pretty much a jerk. Honestly, Rainbow Servant is pretty meh, unless you happen to be one of three very specific base classes that know their entire spell lists. And even then its a a long haul through mediocrity until you get an entire spell list.
I'm not really sure that's how things get out of hand. If a PC wants to get into a PRC during a campaign, the DM preventing the narrative from doing so is pretty much a jerk. Honestly, Rainbow Servant is pretty meh, unless you happen to be one of three very specific base classes that know their entire spell lists. And even then its a a long haul through mediocrity until you get an entire spell list.
it's pretty Meh, unless you are a warmage whom literally took it to add the entire cleric list to your spells known, it's a less pronounced benefit for Beguilers and Dread Necromancers, however, all 3 of the base classes are tier 3 and lower, and will be at best, tier 2 at the end of the PRC, at a very high level. they won't get the boost till the campaign is over, but the 3 classes, especially warmages, tend to need it.
Excuse me, are you claiming that finding a hidden jungle temple was a balancing factor? I'm pretty sure PrCs with RP requirements aren't designed to be stronger than PrCs without RP requirements.
the hidden jungle temple, isn't really a balancing factor, maybe, as the DM of that group said, "Must had Peaceful Contact with a Coatl and Swear an Oath of Service" is a much more fitting requirement than "Find a Hidden Jungle Temple that may require a great deal of Country Hopping"
expecting to have to accomplish an RP requirement that serves no purpose, is a bad idea and a poor attempt to balance a class that doesn't need it, such as the alignment restrictions on paladins or barbarians.
And, see that's how things get out of hand. That PrC is very powerful, as you said a "must do", almost unbalancing, yet the DM simply handwaved "Must find the hidden jungle temples of the couatls." Note, that doesnt include calling one up on the phone. :-)
i don't even consider the RP requirement of finding a hidden jungle temple to be a very Balancing class. there are only 3 classes that climb multiple tiers because of it, and it's the Warmage that needed the boost most