Hi there, everyone. I have a half-Orc who likes to talk smack to potential enemies. If they talk smack back, he just wants to hit them right away. How do I skill check this? For example, it was a tense standoff before a boss battle. The boss character called the half-Orc an idiot. Then the half-Orc said, "I just want to hit with my axe". So, is that a sudden attack? A sneak attack? I was kind of doing a "roll your stealth and I'll roll boss perception to see if it notices you're trying to attack." that doesn't seem quite right. Anybody know a better way? I don't mind the smack talk--it fits his character.
Another question is, how do I make consequences for this if he does it for "snobby shop keepers" or NPCs that he thinks are talking down to him?
Thanks for advice!
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's just normal combat starting. If both parties are aware of each other and the situation is tense, then the actual aggressor doesn't really matter. Just roll initiative.
As for attacking snobby NPC's - probably the same consequences that would happen in real life if you shot a commuter for bumping into you or knifed a delivery guy for being late. That's called aggravated murder, and you could go to jail for life. I would suggest that you prepare a whole guards/court/jailbreak scenario and be ready to insert it into your campaign at a moment's notice.
There is no roll. Assuming he's in full view of the people he's about to attack, you roll initiative. He's initiating combat while his enemies (whether or not they are is irrelevant) can fully see him. The people he is attacking are aware of him and see him about to attack. There is no surprise. That's how Pathfinder works.
That's just normal combat starting. If both parties are aware of each other and the situation is tense, then the actual aggressor doesn't really matter. Just roll initiative.
As for attacking snobby NPC's - probably the same consequences that would happen in real life if you shot a commuter for bumping into you or knifed a delivery guy for being late. That's called aggravated murder, and you could go to jail for life. I would suggest that you prepare a whole guards/court/jailbreak scenario and be ready to insert it into your campaign at a moment's notice.
OK, thank you for clarification. I think I was just making it more complicated than it had to be! Also, thank you for scenario advice. That's a great idea.
|
Just roll for initiative, at that point both people are ready and willing to fight. Maybe the boss attacks first, maybe the half orc. If you feel it works best, give the half orc a natural 20 on his initiative roll, to account for being the first one to escalate to aggression (though this is a house rule).
As for punishing him when dealing with shop keepers and the sort, start giving his character some bad reputation. That way, bars, people, shops, and such charge higher prices to him and maybe even the whole party. If it gets bad, have shop keepers refuse service. At the worst, set a bounty on his head and make it a -hard- encounter, where someone could easily die (not saying you should kill, but rather that someone, or a few of the party members should go unconscious).
There is no roll. Assuming he's in full view of the people he's about to attack, you roll initiative. He's initiating combat while his enemies (whether or not they are is irrelevant) can fully see him. The people he is attacking are aware of him and see him about to attack. There is no surprise. That's how Pathfinder works.
Thank you for your help! I was trying to make it too complicated. Thank you.
Just roll for initiative, at that point both people are ready and willing to fight. Maybe the boss attacks first, maybe the half orc. If you feel it works best, give the half orc a natural 20 on his initiative roll, to account for being the first one to escalate to aggression (though this is a house rule).
As for punishing him when dealing with shop keepers and the sort, start giving his character some bad reputation. That way, bars, people, shops, and such charge higher prices to him and maybe even the whole party. If it gets bad, have shop keepers refuse service. At the worst, set a bounty on his head and make it a -hard- encounter, where someone could easily die (not saying you should kill, but rather that someone, or a few of the party members should go unconscious).
Thank you, this is great advice. I appreciate your help.
There is no roll. Assuming he's in full view of the people he's about to attack, you roll initiative. He's initiating combat while his enemies (whether or not they are is irrelevant) can fully see him. The people he is attacking are aware of him and see him about to attack. There is no surprise. That's how Pathfinder works.Thank you for your help! I was trying to make it too complicated. Thank you.
No problem. I had the same problem with a Magus in Kingmaker. He generally distrusted anyone not from their country and was quick to attack potential foes. After an hour of discussion, we read the rules and its abstract and doesn't work well, but them's da rules :D.
What is the rest of the group doing while this guy is being a sociopath?
What is the rest of the group doing while this guy is being a sociopath?
Well, he is the "tank". The other two (we're a small group who plays over Skype) are a witch and a bard. The witch spends most of combat casting misfortune on foes and the bard usually sings to buff everyone up. He also shoots arrows. It's a little frustrating. I'm trying to get them out of the ruts they're in, but it isn't easy.
Let me rephrase ... why aren't they doing anything about him? If I were either of these two, I'd be trying to calm him down, then forcibly (magically) restrain him when he went nuts.
Why, in-character, are they associating with this lunatic?
Let me rephrase ... why aren't they doing anything about him? If I were either of these two, I'd be trying to calm him down, then forcibly (magically) restrain him when he went nuts.
Why, in-character, are they associating with this lunatic?
Well, the witch is a cat folk and she grew up with a super abusive tribe, so she likes crazy violence. The bard likes to hang out to get stories for his performances. The half-Orc is a generally nice guy, but he was abandoned as a baby, then grew up in Lastwall, where they suddenly realized he was half-Orc and betrayed him. My players have damaged characters, I guess. Also, I think I am not making the game as immersive as I should. I think I need to be trying to pay more attention to alignments and consequences. I'm new, so we're all learning together.
I'm new, so we're all learning together.
Welcome to the game! Good luck in shepherding your players along in whatever quest it is they're destroying playing in. ;)
This sort of anti-social behaviour in games always annoyed me, so before I began my current game, I told everyone that there were two things I wanted everyone to know up front. First was that I play dark, so very bad things will happen to very nice people occasionally, and the PCs won't always be able to stop/fix it. Life doesn't always have happy endings and neither do all my scenarios. Second was that society was founded on the rule of law and I expect their characters (no sociopathic backgrounds) would be expected to follow the laws of society. If they went against them in blatant ways, there would be repercussions. In one scene, they broke into a warehouse looking for enslaved children. They discovered cells holding slaves and were in turn discovered by the guards. Melee ensued and the party was cleaning house. The fight spilled out into the street and when it was all over, watch whistles could be heard in the distance. The party stood there triumphant over the bleeding, unconscious bodies of the guards and waited for the watch. When they arrived, the party was promptly arrested for break and enter, assault and attempted theft. Turns out that these slaves were legal (indentured prisoners from another city being shipped through) and the party got the wrong place. They were a bit more careful in the future about following up on leads and being more circumspect in the way they acted in town.
I was kind of doing a "roll your stealth and I'll roll boss perception to see if it notices you're trying to attack." that doesn't seem quite right.
If the enemy isn't expecting violence, you could do an opposed Bluff and Sense Motive roll to see if he can get in a surprise round. Otherwise, it's best to roll initiative.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
<sarcasm> just hit his PC for 20d6 sonic damage, blind mute and deafen his PC and send him back to the prime at -1 HP </sarcasm>
More seriously, have his reputation do damage. People won't give information, temples will be reluctant to aid him, thugs will say anything (anything!) to avoid being brutalized, etc. He wants to hit everything, then no one wants to do business with him.
Speaking generally (mainly with regard to the "snobby shopkeepers" and so forth):
Does he stand in the shop with his axe in hand? If he does, pretty much anything he says is going to be threatening or intimidating since he's standing in a public place with his weapon ready to use.
If he's not, he needs to draw the weapon first.
Also, one thing that catches people out is that initiative in the first round (and I agree that there's no surprise round here) determines how quick people are once hostilities begin. He initiates hostile action, everyone rolls initiative, and the results fall where they will. He might go last. Just because he's the one who started it, he isn't automatically the one who acts first.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was kind of doing a "roll your stealth and I'll roll boss perception to see if it notices you're trying to attack." that doesn't seem quite right.If the enemy isn't expecting violence, you could do an opposed Bluff and Sense Motive roll to see if he can get in a surprise round. Otherwise, it's best to roll initiative.
If the shopkeeper has no reason to expect that "Sorry sir, we're fresh out of cheese" will get him an axe in the face(!), then the orc rolls a Bluff check opposed by the shopkeeper's Sense Motive. The orc cannot be surprised, but if he wins the opposed skill check then there is a surprise round and he gets either a move action or a standard action. Without a weapon already in hand (why?) and without Quick Draw then he needs to draw a weapon which takes a move action, and that's all he can do in this turn (although he can combine drawing a weapon with moving his speed).
If the shopkeeper wins the check then there is no surprise round because 'all combatants are aware'. If there are other people around this is more complex, but it's the same as normal combat, just substituting Stealth with Bluff and Perception with Sense Motive.
Roll initiative. They act in initiative order, being flat-footed until their first action.
After that, the watch arrives and attempts to arrest the orc for murder, he resists, and is tragically killed while resisting arrest.
the orc rolls a Bluff check opposed by the shopkeeper's Sense Motive. The orc cannot be surprised, but if he wins the opposed skill check then there is a surprise round and he gets either a move action or a standard action.
Note that in these cases you can also allow Sense Motive rolls for the PC's allies to act in the surprise round, whether to help the orc, or to use the Slumber Hex on him before he can cause any trouble.
After that, the watch arrives and attempts to arrest the orc for murder, he resists, and is tragically killed while resisting arrest.
Or, if the PCs are high enough level, the watch are slaughtered and the town is at their mercy.
Speaking generally (mainly with regard to the "snobby shopkeepers" and so forth):
Does he stand in the shop with his axe in hand? If he does, pretty much anything he says is going to be threatening or intimidating since he's standing in a public place with his weapon ready to use.
If he's not, he needs to draw the weapon first.
Also, one thing that catches people out is that initiative in the first round (and I agree that there's no surprise round here) determines how quick people are once hostilities begin. He initiates hostile action, everyone rolls initiative, and the results fall where they will. He might go last. Just because he's the one who started it, he isn't automatically the one who acts first.
I'm going to take the opposite stance and say that that makes no sense at all. The battle started because I started it, yet I went last? I would only buy that if everyone must hold their action until I go. On their turn their just standing there, because I haven't done anything yet.
You've made a hostile movement and failed to catch your enemy by surprise. That means he can react in time to protect himself, if his initiative is higher than yours.
Otherwise we're in a situation where the GM can say, "The fire giant draws his sword and hits you. Critical hit." "But we haven't even rolled initiative yet!" "You can't do anything until he hits you."
I'm going to take the opposite stance and say that that makes no sense at all. The battle started because I started it, yet I went last?
Yup.
You're confusing rolling once to hit with being the only hit in the round. The idea of one-attack-a-round is a simplifying holdover from the days of Chainmail. What's "really" going on is a lot of Flynning, attacks, parries, dodges, et cetera. To put things in perspective, a boxer can usually throw more than 100 punches in a three-minute round of a boxing match, which works out to more than three punches per Pathfinder round (one every two seconds). In Pathfinder as in real life, most of these just aren't effective.
What happens isn't that he's standing there taking your swing. You swung, were deflected, and his counterattack was solid.
I'm going to take the opposite stance and say that that makes no sense at all. The battle started because I started it, yet I went last? I would only buy that if everyone must hold their action until I go. On their turn their just standing there, because I haven't done anything yet.Speaking generally (mainly with regard to the "snobby shopkeepers" and so forth):
Does he stand in the shop with his axe in hand? If he does, pretty much anything he says is going to be threatening or intimidating since he's standing in a public place with his weapon ready to use.
If he's not, he needs to draw the weapon first.
Also, one thing that catches people out is that initiative in the first round (and I agree that there's no surprise round here) determines how quick people are once hostilities begin. He initiates hostile action, everyone rolls initiative, and the results fall where they will. He might go last. Just because he's the one who started it, he isn't automatically the one who acts first.
Nope. What you're describing is a surprise round. If you can surprise the enemy than you can do what you're desribing. If you don't surprise them, then they notice your aggresive movements and respond. Thats where initiative comes into play. It makes sense the despite the big stupid fighter being the one to start hostilities, that the dex-based rogue will be able to act more quickly than the fighter.
Now, it is reasonable that you could try to bluff the enemy and get a surprise round, or sneak up on them, etc. But if you just start to pull out your axe then initiative is called for and your enemy may be quicker on the draw than you are.
I do want to say that the rules allow the DM to set Circumstance bonuses. In this case, a +1 or 2 to init might be good.
As far as "snob shopkeepers" this is indicative of a OOC issue. OOC issues can't be solved IC.
Just sit down and talk with him like adults, and have him scale it back. Do not accept "it's what my character would do" as the Player is who decided his PC is a aggro jerk. You also might just tell him to bring in a new PC, as "No Evils" and you think his PC has now gone to the dark side and is now a NPC. Ask him if he'd mind you running him as a bad guy, even.
Note one thing very important- while a 'all evil campaign" can be a fun change of pace for a group of mature players and a experienced DM, it's important for newish GM to not allow Evil PCs in their game- and that includes 'sorta evil CN aggro jerks".
I'm going to take the opposite stance and say that that makes no sense at all. The battle started because I started it, yet I went last? I would only buy that if everyone must hold their action until I go. On their turn their just standing there, because I haven't done anything yet.
You must have seen some Westerns, no? The one guy goes for his gun, and the gunslinger outdraws him?
You must have seen some Westerns, no? The one guy goes for his gun, and the gunslinger outdraws him?
I'm going to take the opposite stance and say that that makes no sense at all. The battle started because I started it, yet I went last? I would only buy that if everyone must hold their action until I go. On their turn their just standing there, because I haven't done anything yet.
That's one thing.
But "I reach for my weapon to start the fight, the next guy wins initiative, draws his weapon while moving 30ft towards me and attacks me, hitting because I'm still flatfooted for not having acted yet, before I can even draw my weapon" is quite another thing.
Some guys are just fast like a freak...
I'd just start a standard initiative.
If I call an armed person an idiot to their face, I'm going to react if they strike at me. No surprise round.
But no acting first automatically either. If the villain is gonna get the hell out of the way, that's what AC is for.
|
|
You must have seen some Westerns, no? The one guy goes for his gun, and the gunslinger outdraws him?
I'm going to take the opposite stance and say that that makes no sense at all. The battle started because I started it, yet I went last? I would only buy that if everyone must hold their action until I go. On their turn their just standing there, because I haven't done anything yet.That's one thing.
But "I reach for my weapon to start the fight, the next guy wins initiative, draws his weapon while moving 30ft towards me and attacks me, hitting because I'm still flatfooted for not having acted yet, before I can even draw my weapon" is quite another thing.
How is he getting to move AND attack in the surprise round? Is he charging?
He obviously saw you going for your weapon/reaching back for a massive swing/whatever (his Sense Motive beat your Bluff), and his reactions were faster than your's (he rolled a better initiative). He thinks that charging to engage is better than waiting until you shoot him!
If you were so much better than him then you'd have been quicker on the draw, and/or not telegraphed your attack.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
You must have seen some Westerns, no? The one guy goes for his gun, and the gunslinger outdraws him?
I'm going to take the opposite stance and say that that makes no sense at all. The battle started because I started it, yet I went last? I would only buy that if everyone must hold their action until I go. On their turn their just standing there, because I haven't done anything yet.That's one thing.
But "I reach for my weapon to start the fight, the next guy wins initiative, draws his weapon while moving 30ft towards me and attacks me, hitting because I'm still flatfooted for not having acted yet, before I can even draw my weapon" is quite another thing.
"It was three fifths of a second since Joachim drew his pistol." Some people are that quick.
Cough...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoypZyibQro
Ahem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaZ9Gdj93kg
It's not so easy. I could see a player asking,
"How did he beat me?"
"He's reacting to what you did."
"I didn't do anything yet."
"You gave him a funny look."
"What funny look?"
|
|
Cough...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoypZyibQroAhem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaZ9Gdj93kgIt's not so easy. I could see a player asking,
"How did he beat me?"
"He's reacting to what you did."
"I didn't do anything yet."
"You gave him a funny look."
"What funny look?"
You have a tell. Your eye twitches as you're about to draw, and you don't realise it.
You'll have to practice your poker face (gain ranks in Bluff).
Cough...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoypZyibQroAhem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaZ9Gdj93kgIt's not so easy. I could see a player asking,
"How did he beat me?"
"He's reacting to what you did."
"I didn't do anything yet."
"You gave him a funny look."
"What funny look?"
You have a tell. Your eye twitches as you're about to draw, and you don't realise it.
You'll have to practice your poker face (gain ranks in Bluff).
You also have a tail. You didn't realize it when you woke up this morning but you've grown a 4ft. long lizard tail. Now that you think about it you're part demon. You wonder why you never realized this before and...wait, where are you going? Come back.
if two people are talking to each other (no matter how aggressively) but no weapons are drawn and there's any expectation that one party might walk away then i think its fair to let the first aggressor act in a surprise round. of course, unless their 5' apart and he has quickdraw, the most likely use of that round will just be drawing a weapon (and no longer being flat-footed)... when that happens you should allow his enemies a perception or sense motive check against the aggressor's stealth/sleight of hand or bluff (depending on the situation) to notice and also act in the surprise round.
if its truly a standoff (both sides are ready to throwdown) then as soon as one person is done with the talking and ready to fight you all just roll initiative.
the kind of standoff you usually see in movies is really a bunch of people standing/sauntering around with readied actions (after initiative has been determined) just waiting for one person to mess up and trigger it...