We never want you to have to keep track of which dice came from which effect.
Ah, that makes Dogslicer (and Scythe etc.) a little more powerful (and breakable) for me. I've only been applying the "count a 1 as a 3" effect to its own dice, but by this principle it should apply to any d6 rolled on the check.
|
If Harsk is at the Waterfront and decides to help a player in another location with their combat check by recharging a card, does that check now incur the Waterfront's penalty?
What if Harsk is in another location and wants to help a player at the Waterfront -- say Seoni is using a spell for a combat check -- will Seoni now incur the penalty for using weapons because of Harsk's assistance?
If Harsk is at the Waterfront and decides to help a player in another location with their combat check by recharging a card, does that check now incur the Waterfront's penalty?
What if Harsk is in another location and wants to help a player at the Waterfront -- say Seoni is using a spell for a combat check -- will Seoni now incur the penalty for using weapons because of Harsk's assistance?
Situation A: Yes. *ALL* the dice. See Vic above.
Situation B: No. Seoni is not at the Waterfront - So the "At this location..." doesn't apply.
I am thinking zayzayem swapped the situations in the question.
When using a weapon, subtract 1 from each die rolled.
Situation A-1: RotR Harsk is at the Waterfront, and he uses his character power to recharge a card to add a d4+x to a combat check made by another character at another location.
Answer: No, this does not incur the Waterfront's penalty. No weapon is being used.Situation A-2: RotR Harsk is at the Waterfront, and he uses the power on a weapon to add a d4 to a combat check made by another character at another location.
Answer: No, this does not incur the Waterfront's penalty. The check is not being made at the Waterfront. The penalty applies to checks made at the Waterfront using a weapon.
Situation B-1: RotR Harsk is not at the Waterfront, and he uses his character power to recharge a card to add d4+x to another character's combat check at the Waterfront.
Answer: No penalty. See A-1.
Situation B-2: RotR Harsk is not at the Waterfront, and he uses the power of a weapon to add a d4 to a combat check made by another character's combat check at the Waterfront.
Answer: This is the only one that gives me pause. A weapon is definitely being used on the check, but the character at the Waterfront is not using the weapon.
Runelord's language is not as precise as later sets; I think this power would be more clearly written in a later set.
As written, I'd say in situation B-2 the penalty does apply.
It isn't exactly clear what "using a weapon" actually entails, but the most conservative reading is "whenever a weapon is played on your check".
With this reading, whether or not Waterfront applies becomes a two-part test:
1. Is the character making the check at Waterfront?
2. Did any character (regardless of location) play a weapon on the check?
If the answer to both questions is "yes", then Waterfront applies. If either answer is "no", then Waterfront does not apply. This interpretation matches what elcoderdude posted in his response.
There are some other potential interpretations of "using a weapon" -- I'll attempt to demonstrate why I believe they are invalid:
A. It could be interpreted as "Whenever a weapon is played on a check" (instead of "your check"). This would mean that as long as Waterfront is occupied, anyone playing a weapon on any check at any location incurs the penalty. This seems to go strongly against the intent of "using a weapon". There are locations that do affect other locations as long as they're occupied, so this type of power is not without precedent. It just doesn't fit here.
B. It could be interpreted as "Whenever you play a weapon". This would change the test to "Did a character at Waterfront play a weapon on the check" (it wouldn't matter what location the character making the check is actually at). This is also a valid interpretation, but "using" to me sounds like it should really affect the character making the check more than helpers, which is why I favor what I wrote above. It would also mean someone at a different location who plays a weapon on your check at the Waterfront won't incur the penalty.
Does anyone know how the app handles this location power? I know it's not totally accurate, but it could shed light into how another group of people interpreted the power.
As interesting as that is, I really wouldn't trust the app on this sort of technicality. Especially in cases where it's a somewhat more natural and flavoursome reading vs a more technical and in line with previous rulings reading.
Note that there's five cases to test, in theory:
* Using a weapon for your combat check.
* Another character using a weapon from another location to add to a check at the Waterfront.
* Another character at the same location using a weapon to add to a check at the Waterfront.
* The same character adding a bonus with a weapon but not using it "for" the check.
* A character at the Waterfront using a weapon to add a bonus to a check at another location.
The idea that you're only "using" a weapon when you play it to determine the skill you are using on the check is quite seductive and flavourful, but it has no support or precedents in the rules. The thing to compare it to is Blessing of Pharasma, which we all know can still give 2 dice so long as any spell is played on the check. There's no reason the Waterfront would be different.
I also think it's well enough established that as far as location goes, what should matter is just whether the player making the check is at that location. They're the one subtracting 1 from the dice. The tests for whether a weapon was played and whether you're at the Waterfront should be entirely separate.
One thing I would also say is that, similar to an FAQ about BoP and the Strength spell, I'd expect an already-previously-displayed Rod of the Viper (yes I'm going across sets here) should not cause 1 to be subtracted from the dice, because the die it adds is not optional (from memory at least), so you're not actually playing the card on the check even when you add the dice.
Also note that it doesn't say anything about combat, so a Navigator Musket (crossing sets again) adding a bonus to a Wisdom check would also incur the penalty.
If Harsk is at the Waterfront and decides to help a player in another location with their combat check by recharging a card, does that check now incur the Waterfront's penalty?
What if Harsk is in another location and wants to help a player at the Waterfront -- say Seoni is using a spell for a combat check -- will Seoni now incur the penalty for using weapons because of Harsk's assistance?
Situation A: Yes. *ALL* the dice. See Vic above.
Situation B: No. Seoni is not at the Waterfront - So the "At this location..." doesn't apply.
I do not know how I managed to misread the question and phrase my reply so incorrectly - now I cannot find how to delete/edit my comment away and hide under a rock
I do not know how I managed to misread the question and phrase my reply so incorrectly - now I cannot find how to delete/edit my comment away and hide under a rock
You can only edit or delete for an hour after you make your post. Don't worry about it. We've all done the same thing. Even when we read the question right, we get the answer wrong sometimes.
... Yes Hawk, but I am the only one that can both read the question wrong and still answer wrong to it.
Not that I am proud of it but I'd like to keep my crown of stupidity untouched. ;-)
Just contributing my opinion that the implementation of the rules as per the Obsidian app is not particularly relevant except as a curiosity. When it comes to precise rules outcomes (particularly with timing), it's rarely that accurate to RAW, even looking past the long lists of elements that have been recognised as bugs (and the long list of elements that have yet to be recognised as bugs).
|
Situation A-2: RotR Harsk is at the Waterfront, and he uses the power on a weapon to add a d4 to a combat check made by another character at another location.
Answer: No, this does not incur the Waterfront's penalty. The check is not being made at the Waterfront. The penalty applies to checks made at the Waterfront using a weapon.
Let me include the wording from the card, with some light emphasis.
When using a weapon, subtract 1 from each die rolled.
If it said "Your dice" or "Your check" or some variant, I would agree with elcoderdude. However, the verbage only specifies that the person at the location uses a weapon (ostensibly for its power), and that dice are rolled. I read this to mean that if, for a more clear example, Valeros is at the Waterfront with a Light Crossbow in his hand, and he uses the power that adds a d4 to a combat check at another location (he obviously meets the weapon proficiency pre-req), then he has used a weapon, and there are dice rolled. It sounds like this location power would apply.
Situation B-2: RotR Harsk is not at the Waterfront, and he uses the power of a weapon to add a d4 to a combat check made by another character's combat check at the Waterfront.
Answer: This is the only one that gives me pause. A weapon is definitely being used on the check, but the character at the Waterfront is not using the weapon.
Runelord's language is not as precise as later sets; I think this power would be more clearly written in a later set.
As written, I'd say in situation B-2 the penalty does apply.
Nobody at the Waterfront is using a weapon. I don't see why it would apply.
I imagine this would be MUCH more clear if the Waterfront said, "When playing a weapon..."
Hmmm. I see your point. I may have made inferences based on how similar powers work in subsequent sets.
If it was written today, the Waterfront's At This Location power might say:
Subtract 1 from each die rolled if a weapon is played on a check.
(Or perhaps something more elegant.) I am thinking along the lines of RotR's own Brickworks:
Add a die to checks that have the Fire trait.
If Merisiel is at the Woods and she discards a Flaming Longbow +2 to add d4+1 and the Fire Trait to Sajan's combat check at the Brickworks, the Sajan player would add a die. But if the locations where reversed, he wouldn't.
I think a FAQ would be worthwhile.
The question is: does the penalty apply to checks made by a character at the Waterfront on which a weapon is played, or does it apply to all checks on which a character at the Waterfront plays a weapon? My understanding is the former. James' is the latter.