Replaying Scenarios (without stars)

[nosig]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

nosig wrote:

No more than I care if you don't allow someone to take 10 on a knowledge check - or allow someone to run a Vivisectionist or... roll thier HP every time they level or any number of the other rules that are part of PFS.

This isn't the same. People are asking for a rules change, which isn' remotely the same as cheating. The rules for organized play are set by people, not an inviolable law of the universe. If people change their mind on it, then its not cheating.

my post was in response to this question...

"Why do people care 100s or 1000s of miles away from where we play if we sit a player for no credit (venue or GM 's choice). This isn't a convention, your store or home."

perhaps I was mistaken, but it seemed to me that the root of the statement/question was... Why do people who are far away from where we play, care if we don't use this rule?"

If I was wrong, and it was "We need to change this rule in all of PFS" then I should have responded... "Please no. I vote against this change." but if that was the case, why mention people being "100s or 1000s of miles away from where we play "?

[nosig]

Michael Brock wrote:

Benn Roe wrote:

Ever so occasionally, somebody replaying for no credit really is the best option. My store seats over 100, and we've run over 700 tables of PFS, so I hope my data can be taken as seriously as Drogon's.

If it was ever so occasionally, I might have considered it. Just like seven player tables are supposed to be the exception and a rare occurrence. However, we now have people who are showing up four or five times a week and replaying for no credit almost every time. There is a huge gap between ever so occasionally and almost every time.

PFS was designed for play two times a month. It has been confirmed that way since Season 1 in Guide 2.1. The language in that Guide were unambiguous and we may go back to it. It reads:

Scenarios May Only Be Played Once You may only play a Pathfinder Society Organized Play adventure scenario once. This means that once you have played a scenario, you may never play that scenario again with any future characters. The only exception to this rule is using a pregenerated character to replay a scenario in order to make a legal table.

GMs were then allowed to receive credit so that the most active participants could choose to receive credit and participate in PFS four times a month. Then, there was an outcry that people didn't want to GM, but they did want to play more than twice a month, so we added sanctioning of modules and APs. To make those easier, we allowed for people to forego campaign rules and use home play for the, so they could be adjudicated easier. Now people can participate up to 8 times a month and never run out of things to receive credit for as long as people take the responsibility to plan schedules out.

I am not opening up play for unlimited replay with no credit. It isn't currently scheduled to happen and it isn't planned to be changed in the foreseeable future. We discussed it at a meeting in house yesterday and everyone in that meeting was in agreement. Do we recognize the need to add 1 or 2 more...

+1

and thank you sir.

[Cire]

nosig wrote:

Stetrix wrote:

nosig wrote:

... that just might me against the rules.

You may have missed For now we will say go home Because it is the rule. Hint: I'd like the rule to change.

And I see your clear point that having someone sit and play for no credit is the same as playing a Vivisectionist or 25 Point build Catfolk - as opposed to burning a GM star and replaying or GMing the scenario 1st then playing as a player legally. Clearly excellent apples to apples examples related to the topic at hand. Thanks for that.

And my point is - have everyone play something they haven't.

Rather than having the schedule set the available players, find some way to have the available players set the schedule. We (all of PFS) do this now to a limited extent. Everyone says something like "Normally the scheduled tables go off without a hitch regardless, but sometimes things need to be switched around at the last minute to accommodate everyone. (- Benn Roe above)"... so, when you have someone who can't play - "things need to be switched around at the last minute to accommodate everyone".

I know this works. I see it work in my home town every week. Everyone (almost) who shows up, plays. Every time.

I play in nosig's area. It does seem crazy the way we do things here. As nosig said though, it does almost always work out for us. I can count on one finger the number of games I have been involved in as a player or as a GM where someone played for no credit.

There is a small contingent of us GMs though that do appreciate planning in advance and do post sessions on warhorn and our facebook group, etc. We just dont always have the luxury of the player base paying any attention to us. We will not stop trying though.

[WalterGM]

Man did I have a great time last night! Got to polish off my Destiny of Sands trilogy with a brilliant final session. Sorry I didn't get back to this thread, but we played till midnight. No regrets—being mythic is so stupid fun. Thanks to Angrish for dealing with our shenanigans.

Spoiler:

Our huge sized mythic enlarge person brawler leapt up 50 feet to grapple a mythic behir, hold on to it, and then plummet back down with the creature. Since the behir took falling damage, it was knocked prone. Hah.

Anyway...

Michael Brock wrote:

Walter, how many players do you have in your region that have less than 10 scenarios available to play for credit?

Porter's answer is pretty spot on. Presently, we only have 5 or so players that would fall into this category. If you expanded it to 20 scenarios or less, we'd probably have another 5-10.

Drogon wrote:

Hrm. I saw "Eastern Washington" and assumed. Dunno why I always do that...

Anyhoo, Pullman it is. Population of 32,000, as of the 2012 census, so I think it is safe to say that it is 32,000+ in 2014. My hypothetical 60 person player pool is still more than viable based on gamer demographics (and - even better with Pullman - college town demographics, which has Washington State University with a total student population of 27,000).

I would love to know your current number of players, Walter. Not just per day, but how many are registered in your area ("your area" being a 20-30 minute drive from the venue at which you host games).

I spread my VO'ness over Eastern Washington (Spokane, Tri-cities, etc), but am more hands on in my hometown of Pullman.

What players do we have that are registered in a 20-30 mintue area that don't necessarily play all the time? I'd say 50 would be fair estimation. Some of those players only sit down once a month, and some play most of the time in our sister town of Moscow (in Idaho), and some are about to graduate from school or are gone during the summer, but I'd say that about 50 would be fair number during the school year.

On an average night, we have 15 or so people. On a busy night (during the school year), we've had between 3-4 full tables.

How big is our venue? It'll comfortably sit 6-7 tables for our bigger events, where folks drive a few hours to attend. Any more than that and we'd be squeezing by one another.

Trying to get 60 people show up? The biggest turn out we've had is 35 I believe, for one of our events. I think that most folks in the area play in Pullman or Moscow most of the time, whichever is closer to where they live, and only the diehards attend both. I mean, 21,000 members of Pullman's population is College students (the other 6k from your numbers are at remote campuses, or attend WSU online according to Wikipedia). That's a huge pool of people that's constantly changing that's in town 75% of the time. So when we do get people that catch the PFS bug, they often wind up leaving after a couple of years (this is what happened with Porter, and is about to happen with Acedio).

What it does mean is that every year we have, by virtue of the university, 11,000 new people showing up, with whatever percentage of those being gamers. Now we also have four hobby shops between Moscow and Pullman, so not all of them are coming to "our" store when they go exploring, but a good many of them come to one of the shops that offers PFS. And any of them that have an interest in Pathfinder get pitched to play PFS with us.

This is why we are always welcoming to walk ups. They're a constant thing in Pullman. That's not to say it isn't a constant thing elsewhere, but Pullman really is "a college town." It only exists to service the university, so those students are our bread and butter when it comes to player base.

[Stetrix]

I want to be clear - We are following the rules and turning away players who want to play for no credit (we did just this on Tuesday after Mike clarified the rule on Saturday). This is the third time I said this in this thread. I thought this was a discussion on changing the rule. My point was to allow the venue (not at conventions) and GM to decide. Mike, if the discussion is closed please close the forum. Then it is, what it is and I will shut up and stop pressing my point.

Drogon wrote:

Does it impact you?

Yes. As I have pointed out several times, if this becomes a written rule it is one I will have to follow.

I am advocating for the Venue and GM to decide if they will allow a player to sit for no credit, so no, in that instance you would not have to follow it and it would not impact your store or games in any way - You simply say no.

Michael Brock wrote:

Because that player may then chose to go to Megacon or Dragon Con or Gen Con or some other con. When they show up to play for no credit and the GM or the VO or the coordinator refuses to sit them to replay for no credit, that player them takes it out on the GM or the VO or the coordinator, whether that be yelling or cursing or sulking or whatever. And it isn't fair for that GM or VO or coordinator to have to deal with it since you decided to let the player ignore the rules that are set in place for the campaign.

I would not allow no credit replays at a convention - there are too many options available. I see your point on someone trying to do that, but is that different than today when people sign-up for something they played not knowing the rule? or argue excessively on a ruling (maybe a little different there...

Again, we are respecting the rules and not sitting no credit players, and have not "decided to let the player ignore the rules". Although would love to consider allowing 25 point build catfolk vivisectionists with one million gold of equipment at 3rd level wink - please no one take that last comment seriously... Much respect to you - I know dealing with 1000s of gamers with their differences of opinions can't be easy.

Drogon wrote:

Does it give the player an advantage?

Yes. It allows them to take a seat without having to be concerned about what is on the schedule. That advantage is taken against the player who is slower, or only just nosing into the world of OrgPlay. When that seat is occupied, the player who is slower or new won't get that seat.

Again - trying to use some common sense - Would I bump a player off a table to sit a no credit player - not a chance.

Drogon wrote:

Does it mean there maybe a few less players on a given week in the store?

Not if you are scheduling properly. And "scheduling properly" can be an RSVP system like Denver, or a loose muster system like St. Louis. Either one works, as has been proven, to seat any and all players who show up for the game days.

Good for you that no one in the last 1100 games has decided not to visit your store the week all the scenarios offered they had played and or GMd. We have a scheduling signup system and it happened twice in the last month with regulars (who also GM) and on a PbP I am currently playing. We rotate GMs and sit 3-4 tables every week. It does not happen often , but it does happen (usually to our frequent player/GMs). The point is, it happens, maybe not in your universe, but in mine it does occasionally. Do we want it to happen? No, and try to avoid it whenever possible. A better tool/program/or something non-manual that registered all the IDs and let us find the perfect scenarios would be a great help.

We wouldn't ever bump a player for a no credit player or add that player as a 7th PC. Most likely it would mean someone runs a pregen on a table with 4 players or makes it a 6 person table. They would be advised in advance/warned to play a support role and let the others take the lead - kind of what someone who GMd then played legally would do. It's a maturity thing - so let the GM/Venue decide if they think they can handle it. I think we can, we have a good community of regular players who are mature enough to handle not spoiling the scenario for others. Obviously it's not your huckleberry so don't allow it. It doesn't impact me or our players unless they are in your store or at your table, then it should be your decision.

[WalterGM]

Since I failed to touch upon how the clarification went down last night, I'll do so now.

We had two tables worth of people last night (finals week and all). Initially, it was looking like I'd be running the AP for Steven, and one other person that is "capped" on scenarios. However Steven was able to schedule it so I could get credit with Destiny of the Sands pt. 3 and the other individual could get credit at the other table.

We had two tables and Steven went home after organizing, as he couldn't sit at either.

[Unklbuck]

I have played several times for no credit...usually because I show up after posting on the meeting site that I will play a game...I get there and the games is a no go...usually because either GM bailed for whatever reason of a couple of people didn't show.

Now under the New (old but not enforced) rule I should have been told ...so sorry...too bad...go home...better luck next time?

Now you've just wasted a persons time, gas, and now they're not spending impulse $$.

Drive people away enough times then PFS stops becoming a hobby of choice..which you spend money on ...to "something I used to do until it became too much of a pain in the ass"

[pauljathome]

Cire wrote:

I play in nosig's area. It does seem crazy the way we do things here. As nosig said though, it does almost always work out for us. I can count on one finger the number of games I have been involved in as a player or as a GM where someone played for no credit.

There is a small contingent of us GMs though that do appreciate planning in advance and do post sessions on warhorn and our facebook group, etc. We just dont always have the luxury of the player base paying any attention to us. We will not stop trying though.

We used to essentially do it the way nosig did. Many GMs and players disliked it. NOBODY runs a game cold or semi cold as well as one they've prepared for, the time taken deciding what to play put more stress on an already tight schedule, and people often ended up playing pregens because they had no character in tier for whatever got chosen.

Then the old store coordinator moved on and I took over. I changed to the more common "schedule and reserve online" system. Every one of the regular GMs agreed with the change and it made us a lot happier. I know that I wouldn't still be GMing there with the old system.

Since I'm posting anyways, I'll mention that the drop ins we get tend to be new players. And I'll do almost anything I can to seat them at a table, preferably tier 1-2. At least some of our non credit replays came when an experienced player volunteered to shift tables to accommodate them. The rest came when players shifted to even up table sizes (although those will still be legal), or when a table didn't run for whatever reason.

I'm a little unhappy with the "new" rule but it is what it is. And we certainly never allowed reruns as a normal expected thing so we're less effected than Walters group

[Andrew Christian]

Unklbuck wrote:

I have played several times for no credit...usually because I show up after posting on the meeting site that I will play a game...I get there and the games is a no go...usually because either GM bailed for whatever reason of a couple of people didn't show.

Now under the New (old but not enforced) rule I should have been told ...so sorry...too bad...go home...better luck next time?

Now you've just wasted a persons time, gas, and now they're not spending impulse $$.

Drive people away enough times then PFS stops becoming a hobby of choice..which you spend money on ...to "something I used to do until it became too much of a pain in the ass"

I know one thing I'm going to start doing in the twin cities is actively asking folks for what they would like to see run. Obviously i f I get many different requests I won't be able to accommodate them all.

It will mm ake scheduling more onerous, but that is a task I'm willing to take on.

I'm willing to open up more tables too, given enough time to find a GM.

Also a local member is looking to create a web ap that will allow us to sort the meetup site to better gauge what has been running so all our organizers can better pick the low frequency scenarios to run.

I know this doesn't solve all your issues with this rule, but hopefully it helps you participate more frequently as you wish.

[bugleyman]

Michael Brock wrote:

Do we recognize the need to add 1 or 2 more scenarios a month so we can up the opportunities to participate from 8 to 9 or 10? Sure we do. Are we able to go to 3 or 4 scenarios a month at this time? No.

Out of curiosity, what is the constraint?

I, for one, do not wish to be full-time game designer, but as a PFS participant, I would love to write a scenario or two. I don't even care whether I'm paid or not. But I've never bothered submitting a Quest proposal because the last time I asked those proposals were not actually being reviewed. I'm not going to put effort into something that isn't even going to be looked at.

On the other hand, if editing is the constraint, I really don't understand why you guys don't use the VO pool. It is quite clear that doing so would be very effective, and I know there is no shortage of volunteers. Heck, even if you don't use the VOs, you sell scenarios for $4...even if you sell only 100 copies, that would be sufficient to pay an editor for 4-5 hours.

Maybe there are just constraints you can't or won't share, but it's kinda hard to understand from an outside perspective.

[Drogon]

Stetrix wrote:

Drogon wrote:

Does it impact you?

Yes. As I have pointed out several times, if this becomes a written rule it is one I will have to follow.

I am advocating for the Venue and GM to decide if they will allow a player to sit for no credit, so no, in that instance you would not have to follow it and it would not impact your store or games in any way - You simply say no.

Michael Brock wrote:

Because that player may then chose to go to Megacon or Dragon Con or Gen Con or some other con. When they show up to play for no credit and the GM or the VO or the coordinator refuses to sit them to replay for no credit, that player them takes it out on the GM or the VO or the coordinator, whether that be yelling or cursing or sulking or whatever. And it isn't fair for that GM or VO or coordinator to have to deal with it since you decided to let the player ignore the rules that are set in place for the campaign.

And what happens when the player goes from your venue to my venue? The negative impact is mine (and if not mine, then some other store who says "no"), so I will stand by my answer to your question: yes, it impacts me.

As you are becoming frustrated by people insisting you're asking for something you're not, I am becoming frustrated by your insistence that I will not suffer the consequences of enforcing a situation that you do not.

And, again, it doesn't even have to be a player who transits from your venue to mine. I have plenty of people who read the boards, and they will start insisting that it is okay to replay. When I tell them it's okay at other locations, but not mine, that will negatively impact me.

"Common sense" is not a rule that can be pointed at to placate people. The arguments that spring up on these boards prove that all the time.

[bugleyman]

Unklbuck wrote:

I should have been told ...so sorry...too bad...go home...better luck next time?

That...seems to be the case, yes.

As someone who has little personal stake in the argument -- I've only played 40 PFS scenarios, tops -- I have yet to see a single cogent argument against replay for no credit. Over nearly ten years of organized play, across three campaigns, I have never seen anyone who was replaying for no credit just going through the motions. Anecdotal? Sure. But there is simply no incentive.

But Mike has re-iterated that the rule isn't changing, so if you show up at my table and want to replay for no credit, unless we need you to make a legal table you will be sent packing.

[Unklbuck]

bugleyman wrote:

Unklbuck wrote:

I should have been told ...so sorry...too bad...go home...better luck next time?

That...seems to be the case, yes.

As someone who has little personal stake in the argument -- I've only played 40 PFS scenarios, tops -- I have yet to see a single cogent argument against replay for no credit. Over roughly ten years of organized play, across three campaigns, I have never seen anyone playing for no credit who was just going through the motions. There is simply no incentive. For credit? Sure, but that's a different story.

But Mike has re-iterated that the rule isn't changing, so if you show up at my table and want to play for no credit, unless we need you to make a legal table you will be sent packing.

When's 5E coming out?...only half joking

[Drogon]

bugleyman wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Do we recognize the need to add 1 or 2 more scenarios a month so we can up the opportunities to participate from 8 to 9 or 10? Sure we do. Are we able to go to 3 or 4 scenarios a month at this time? No.

Out of curiosity, what is the constraint?

I, for one, do not wish to be full-time game designer, but as a PFS participant, I would love to write a scenario or two. I don't even care whether I'm paid or not. But I've never bothered submitting a Quest proposal because the last time I asked those proposals were not actually being reviewed.

The answer to your question will be the same as always: development.

Paizo does not have the money to dedicate more resources for development. Write all the adventures you want as quickly as you want. The issue is that they need to be edited, checked (and re-checked) for rules correctness and story continuity, laid out, and published (whether in physical or PDF form does not matter in this phase).

Paizo is always behind on their schedule. So much so that they will cancel things, as happened to the Module line recently, or double up on lines, as happened to nearly all of them this month. This back and forth pressure is how they deal with their shortfall on development. To me, it is a very "small company" mentality of reacting rather than staying ahead of the curve, but it works for them.

Please note: it is their company. They get to make those decisions. We can wish that they would hire more people or dedicate their resources differently, but they are the ones who know their numbers and have succeeded in their business.

[bugleyman]

Drogon wrote:

Please note: it is their company. They get to make those decisions. We can wish that they would hire more people or dedicate their resources differently, but they are the ones who know their numbers and have succeeded in their business.

Absolutely; they're free to do whatever they want...including soliciting Quest proposals that they never. actually. review.

(not that I'm bitter or anything :P)

[TOZ]

Unklbuck wrote:

When's 5E coming out?...only half joking

Ask Again Later.

[bugleyman]

Unklbuck wrote:

When's 5E coming out?...only half joking

Looks like August, though I don't know that they've shared any plans for organized play.

[Chris Mortika]

Unklbuck wrote:

I have played several times for no credit...usually because I show up after posting on the meeting site that I will play a game...I get there and the games is a no go...usually because either GM bailed for whatever reason of a couple of people didn't show.

Unklbuck, I've run a little weekly get-together at a store, for about 2 years now. In that time, we've had 2 GMs not show, and one of them gave enough advance notice that we were able to find a replacement. If a GM "bailed for whatever reason", I would be hard-pressed to invite that person back to run another game. If it happens "several times," as you suggest, there is a serious problem.

"Playing for no credit" isn't the right solution. Enforcing GM accountability is.

Quote:

I should have been told ...so sorry...too bad...go home...better luck next time?

"I'm really sorry, but the GM for your game didn't show. You've already played the other game? That sucks. As the coordinator, I'll pay your gas money for driving here and back, because it's certainly not your fault. Please come back next time; we'll make sure your game will go off, if I have to run it myself."

The reason given for allowing "replay for no credit" (we don't want to send people away) is just as good a reason to allow 8-person tables, or people playing out of tier, or any other excuse to "play, play, play."

In the future:

* Accountable GMs.
* Everybody who can GM, should come ready to run some adventure, as a back-up. Preferably one that hasn't been offered in the venue.

[Silbeg]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Unklbuck wrote:

I have played several times for no credit...usually because I show up after posting on the meeting site that I will play a game...I get there and the games is a no go...usually because either GM bailed for whatever reason of a couple of people didn't show.

Now under the New (old but not enforced) rule I should have been told ...so sorry...too bad...go home...better luck next time?

Now you've just wasted a persons time, gas, and now they're not spending impulse $$.

Drive people away enough times then PFS stops becoming a hobby of choice..which you spend money on ...to "something I used to do until it became too much of a pain in the ass"

I know one thing I'm going to start doing in the twin cities is actively asking folks for what they would like to see run. Obviously i f I get many different requests I won't be able to accommodate them all.

It will mm ake scheduling more onerous, but that is a task I'm willing to take on.

I'm willing to open up more tables too, given enough time to find a GM.

Also a local member is looking to create a web ap that will allow us to sort the meetup site to better gauge what has been running so all our organizers can better pick the low frequency scenarios to run.

I know this doesn't solve all your issues with this rule, but hopefully it helps you participate more frequently as you wish.

As an FYI - I am that "local member". The app is currently just an idea I am floating around in my head, until I get the chance to start working on it.

Currently, I am planning on having it be a searchable database where you can sort by: Region, Venue, and/or Scenario. This should give a pretty good idea of what's been offered, where.

If anyone has any good ideas of what such an application should contain, please feel free to PM me.

Andy, I think it would be a great idea if the local organizers could start taking suggestions (not that they didn't do so already, but passively accepting suggestions is different than actively seeking them out). I think I will add to the tracking application a way to suggest/request specific scenarios (with options to suggest for a specific venue).

My plan is to get a prototype up and running (and find somewhere cheap (such as on Google App Engine), and start trying it out. Hopefully the Twin Cities locals will be able to give some good feedback. Once I think it is a bit more mature, I might invite some other regions to start using it... eventually the goal would be to either open-source the code, give it to Paizo, or both!

On the general question at hand, though, I think there are a couple of issues we are seeing. One part would be that signups are not working as best the could (for a variety of reasons), another that players and/or GMs don't always show up for the games they have signed up for. The latter part we really cannot do anything about, but the former can be improved, I am sure.

The engineer in me sees the problem being one of missing metrics. We need to collect better data on what games are being ran, and where. Once we have that, our organizers can do a better job of presenting games that people can play.

On the other hand, voracious consumers of scenarios have to take at least a little bit of ownership in the problem, themselves. There is a limited amount of material now (closing on 150 scenarios, right?). In reality,, this is a really good amount of material to go through (not counting modules, APs, etc)! If we make sure we are doing a good job of rotating the scenarios, and balancing out what has been played recently, I think we can do much better. That's why I am planning on doing some coding to try and help!

Oh, crap. Now people have seen that I am planning something... they are going to expect that I deliver. Well, no time like the present to start... well, maybe after I prep We Be Goblins, Master of the Fallen Fortress, and The Confirmation for this weekend.

[BigNorseWolf]

Wait, whats wrong with DMing for no credit? If you've already run it once you're in the best possible position to run it again.

[Unklbuck]

Maybe I'm just a cranky old fart but as much as I am for DM'ing to give back to the community the rewards are sometime just too little.

Lets see....gonna run scenario X-00...shell out 3.99 to Paizo for the scenario.

Oh look...who's the dumba$$ that drew the map in all diagonal squares on a 10' square grid...doesn't anybody edit this stuff?

All right...get to the site...wait an extra 30 minutes past start time because people are invariably late.

Order food from site...shell out 15.00, buy a splat book or box of mini's for 20.00...got to support the store right?

Start game...and listen to closet thespian blather on about what color socks their PC is wearing..and then what color they change to every 4 minutes...not kidding here.

Give one of your just purchased mini's to brand mew player because they think its cool and you'll do whatever it takes to keep them interested.

Have Gunslinger Alchemist with with 3rd arm growing out of their forehead just trivialize the scenario combats.

Now have the to give the blithering thespian a ride home after the game is over because he wasted so much time he missed his bus and doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together because I'm a nice...then listen to his next character concept of a singing bard where he'll write his own songs and sing them at the table.

Now do all this...and get a GM chronicle to apply to a character that you'll probably never play as you are running out of scenarios.

[Conman the Bardbarian]

Unklbuck wrote:

Maybe I'm just a cranky old fart but as much as I am for DM'ing to give back to the community the rewards are sometime just too little.

Lets see....gonna run scenario X-00...shell out 3.99 to Paizo for the scenario.

Oh look...who's the dumba$$ that drew the map in all diagonal squares on a 10' square grid...doesn't anybody edit this stuff?

All right...get to the site...wait an extra 30 minutes past start time because people are invariably late.

Order food from site...shell out 15.00, buy a splat book or box of mini's for 20.00...got to support the store right?

Start game...and listen to closet thespian blather on about what color socks their PC is wearing..and then what color they change to every 4 minutes...not kidding here.

Give one of your just purchased mini's to brand mew player because they think its cool and you'll do whatever it takes to keep them interested.

Have Gunslinger Alchemist with with 3rd arm growing out of their forehead just trivialize the scenario combats.

Now have the to give the blithering thespian a ride home after the game is over because he wasted so much time he missed his bus and doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together because I'm a nice...then listen to his next character concept of a singing bard where he'll write his own songs and sing them at the table.

Now do all this...and get a GM chronicle to apply to a character that you'll probably never play as you are running out of scenarios.

The bolded portion seems to be the only part exclusive to GMing, and even then some places will provide a copy of the scenario for you.

Such as Drogon.

[Andrew Christian]

Until the gifting part of paizos store broke, I always gifted my GMs the scenario. Now I offer to reimburse at the game and to date they have all demured.

The cost of GMing can run high though. Printing costs. Marker costs for blank battle mats. Flip matt's, map packs, minis and what not all cost money.

[Drogon]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Until the gifting part of paizos store broke, I always gifted my GMs the scenario. Now I offer to reimburse at the game and to date they have all demured.

The cost of GMing can run high though. Printing costs. Marker costs for blank battle mats. Flip matt's, map packs, minis and what not all cost money.

I give them free use of all that stuff, too. If it is asked for, I provide at no cost.

And then I give them $10 to run the game.

Like you said, most GMs demure and purchase their own stuff because they are running their own games. But the offer is always out there, in writing, when I ask for volunteers for the month.

[TriOmegaZero]

Both myself and my local VOs are happy to help out with print copies should our fellow GMs need them. It's just a matter of letting us know ahead of time. (I have purchased every scenario to date save for Fate of the Fiend, since I expect to be comped that for my run at PaizoCon. :)

[Chris Mortika]

Unklbuck wrote:

Maybe I'm just a cranky old fart but as much as I am for DM'ing to give back to the community the rewards are sometime just too little.

Lets see....gonna run scenario X-00...shell out 3.99 to Paizo for the scenario.

Oh look...who's the dumba$$ that drew the map in all diagonal squares on a 10' square grid...doesn't anybody edit this stuff?

So you don't want to GM because the scenarios are poor quality. Okay, fair enough. Yes, you sound like a cranky old fart.

Quote:

Order food from site...shell out 15.00, buy a splat book or box of mini's for 20.00...got to support the store right?

No, of course not. Where do you game, honestly? Who expects GMs to shell out $35? Or are you just trolling?

Quote:

Start game...and listen to closet thespian blather on about what color socks their PC is wearing..and then what color they change to every 4 minutes...not kidding here.

I would recommend that you take a look through GM 201. There's advice there about keeping tables moving and time control.

Quote:

Give one of your just purchased mini's to brand mew player because they think its cool and you'll do whatever it takes to keep them interested.

No, of course not. Where do you game, honestly? Who expects GMs to just give away their property to players? or are you just trolling?

Quote:

Now have the to give the blithering thespian a ride home after the game is over because he wasted so much time he missed his bus and doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together because I'm a nice...then listen to his next character concept of a singing bard where he'll write his own songs and sing them at the table.

No, of course not. Maybe it's the teacher-instincts in me, but I can't imagine "give players a ride home" to be part of the GM expectation. In addition to everything else, it's stupidly dangerous.

On the other hand, I can understand why GMs at your venue "bail, for whatever reason." They're expected to pay $35, hand out free stuff to their players, and provide rides.

"Replaying for no credit" is by far the least of your issues. I would drop that venue like a hot potato and find another coordinator maybe one with a sense of decency. I'm absolutely serious. If that's how PFS is represented in your area, I shouldn't wonder that you'd want to jump to D&D next edition, or any other game.

Quote:

Now do all this...and get a GM chronicle to apply to a character that you'll probably never play as you are running out of scenarios.

Replaying for no credit doesn't solve that issue at all.

[Unklbuck]

I don't give two hoots about the money...I can afford it...I'm just making the point that GM'ing is a time, money, and patience investment for very little tangible (to me) return...Oh boy...I get to apply a CS to a character that won't be able to play?
But if you GM you get replays right?...at a diminishing rate of return on your investment.
Make it worthwhile to GM...replays for every 10 scenarios or so with no lifetime limit

[nosig]

Unklbuck wrote:

Maybe I'm just a cranky old fart but as much as I am for DM'ing to give back to the community the rewards are sometime just too little.

Lets see....gonna run scenario X-00...shell out 3.99 to Paizo for the scenario.

Oh look...who's the dumba$$ that drew the map in all diagonal squares on a 10' square grid...doesn't anybody edit this stuff?

All right...get to the site...wait an extra 30 minutes past start time because people are invariably late.

Order food from site...shell out 15.00, buy a splat book or box of mini's for 20.00...got to support the store right?

Start game...and listen to closet thespian blather on about what color socks their PC is wearing..and then what color they change to every 4 minutes...not kidding here.

Give one of your just purchased mini's to brand mew player because they think its cool and you'll do whatever it takes to keep them interested.

Have Gunslinger Alchemist with with 3rd arm growing out of their forehead just trivialize the scenario combats.

Now have the to give the blithering thespian a ride home after the game is over because he wasted so much time he missed his bus and doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together because I'm a nice...then listen to his next character concept of a singing bard where he'll write his own songs and sing them at the table.

Now do all this...and get a GM chronicle to apply to a character that you'll probably never play as you are running out of scenarios.

Please don't take this wrong... but if you feel this way, maybe your not the best person to run a game?

"Life is to short for bad gaming" & "if it's not fun, don't do it".

Lets see....gonna run scenario 9-15 Whips and Midgets, but I should have a back up or 3...I've got the ones I prepped to run at ComicCon still in the trunk of the car and even have the maps for those put asside...shell out 3.99 to Paizo for the scenario - heck, this is cheeper than a new DVD! and will give me lots more hours of entertainment than "Surf Ninjas Must Die".

Oh look...who's the dumba$$ that drew the map in all diagonal squares on a 10' square grid...doesn't anybody edit this stuff? - Two hours of drawing the map - but going to be fun when I spring the "setting pieces" I created from old cardstock! wah-hoo!

All right...get to the site...wait an extra 30 minutes past start time because people are still sorting out who can play what and getting to my table. Go over everything I have with me... yeah, "SHOW TIME!"

Order food from site - don't want to be like the last time when I so involved I forgot to eat for 12 hours strait...shell out 15.00, get some "helpful" gamer to run to the burger joint down the way... Hay! let me check to see if they have any new mappacks or maybe buy a splat book or box of mini's for 20.00...got to support the store right?

Start game...and listen to closet thespian blather on about what color socks their PC is wearing..and then what color they change to every 4 minutes...not kidding here. I wonder if I should blend this into one of my PCs? nah, don't want to steal his gimmick... Maybe look at Sleeves of Many Garmets again? Or wait, Hat of Disguise! Yeah!

Give one of the just purchased mini's to brand mew player because they think its cool and you always like to impress the newbies - wait, show off my custom "Dog-rider" coverted mini, hand crafted and painted from several other minis to be unique to my Cavalier PC. Yeah, it's bragging and I bask in the glory a few minutes...

Have Gunslinger Alchemist with with 3rd arm growing out of their forehead just trivialize the scenario combats. Great! We can spend more time on the fun RP encounters! Yeah! Now, gotta remember to be sure and inject a bit of humor into the BBE Death Scene - as he is so clearly over matched... The Beginner running the sorcerer just charged over and "...I kick the body in the face! They deserve IT! Gah! Take that you-you- @#$%^!". Wow... guess I really played that NPC that right, my "Evil Dude" persona worked!

Now need to give the blithering thespian a ride home after the game is over because I kept him so late talking in the parking lot, he missed his bus and doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together because I'm a nice... Wait! I'll treat him to a burger on the way home and he can listen to my next character concept! And some kewl uses of the Hat of Disguise! Another hour doing what I like to do!

There - sorry, couldn't resist that.

Now do all this...and get a GM chronicle to apply to a character that you'll probably never play as you are running out of scenarios.

[Dorigin]

I organize at one of the locations that Unklbuck attends regularly. And at that store this clarification of rulings is affecting a few people there.

This location has been supporting PFS since Oct 2011 and has had the organizer torch passed 2 times since then, I am the 3rd organizer there but have played at this location since Nov 2011. This location runs 3-5 table every week and doesn't have a GM pool large enough for me to simply dictate what games are going to be run. Many weeks, I'm begging for GM's and those willing to step up have a short list of the games they are willing to run. That being said, just because there is 300 sanctioned options, doesn't mean they are all available on any given week. And in fact many of the new GM's willing to help want to run games they have already played (and rightfully so). This doesn't however do a whole lot for the variety of games being offered in a 2-3 month window.

I find myself disappointed most by this ruling when thinking of conventions. If I'm scheduled to run a table, I obviously wont be pre-registered to play at a table I can sit at. And if my table doesn't make for some reason, I'll be stuck at the admin desk like a puppy in time out. That's not cool... I go to cons in order to meet new pfs players and support this brand. But now I'm told that I can't sit in for gitts & shiggles even though I'm doing everything I can to support the efforts of the campaign as a whole. That doesn't make me feel very appreciated.

I immediately righted the ship in regards to this ruling in the shop I organize for and will continue to be vigilant in adhering to the rules laid out for us. But I think we are missing the mark on this one.

[Drogon]

Andrew Berger wrote:

Many weeks, I'm begging for GM's

May I make a suggestion?

Prior to announcing your game schedule for players, announce the fact that you need GMs to be able to run the schedule. This is the announcement I put out one week before the end of the month:

GM Announcement:

Hello, all,

It is that time, again. I’m looking for GMs for next month’s games at Enchanted Grounds in Highlands Ranch. This is not the open call for those games; that will happen next week after I have all the GM spots full. Watch for it then, if you are not going to GM. If you are interested in GMing for me, read on.

First, I would like to outline the benefits of GMing for Enchanted Grounds:

• I can get you the module for free. If requested, I will provide a physical copy of it, along with faction missions and chronicle sheets. In certain cases, I can get you an electronic copy, but those cases are necessarily rare and must be discussed.
  
• If you need maps, minis, pens, a combat tracker or any other supplies to run your game I will lend you what you need on the day of the game. Just submit a list of what you need to me and I will provide.
  
• You will earn a $10 gift certificate to the store for each game you GM. This helps offset any cost you incur purchasing the scenario or the supplies to run that scenario.
  
• You will be given access to the schedule ahead of the general announcement. For each table you GM I will allow you to take a player seat at another table. This seat is guaranteed, as you will be signing up ahead of the open call.
  
• If you GM ten games at the store I will give you a Paizo Pathfinder t-shirt for free(the shirts that get you a free reroll at any game you play).
  
• As Phil McMahon once said so well, you "get to play an ass-hat that everyone can't stand for the entire night; one that everyone gets the satisfaction of killing at the end of the game." Don't sell that short. It's an invaluable benefit, and one everyone appreciates.
  
• All of the inherent benefits of GMing PFS scenarios (character credit, advancement on the GM "star" tier, access to GM boons when made available, etc.).
  

So, with all that in mind, I would like to ask for GM volunteers for the following dates and scenarios:

Monday, , 6:00 PM:

Saturday, , 9:00 AM:

Saturday, , 2:00 PM:

Monday, , 6:00 PM:

--------------------------------------------------

I post the four scenarios I'm going to offer each day, and I will not post an open call for players until I have all the GM spots taken. We charge a mere $2 per player for each game which is what we use to buy the GM gift certificates. Sometimes we end up in the positive. Sometimes we end up in the red. Usually, this balances out. No one ever complains about having to pay $2 for 4+ hours of entertainment.

I have yet to ever have an issue getting hold of GMs for my store's games.

Hope this helps. (-:

[Conman the Bardbarian]

Or on top of that make one week a month GM week where everyone who is GMing that month gets first shot at the new scenarios.

[bugleyman]

Drogon, that is a pretty fantastic list...quite commendable.

However, in my area, there are no minis, maps, etc. made available. As a GM, you either need to bring your own or borrow from a friend. Likewise, there is no store credit. And while I'm confident I could get a print-out of a scenario if I asked for one, they aren't generally available. So I buy my own scenarios, print them myself, provide my own supplies, etc. And that's fine. But I expect the need to do these things means GM availability suffers.

[Drogon]

bugleyman wrote:

Drogon, that is a pretty fantastic list...quite commendable.

However, in my area, there are no minis, maps, etc. made available. As a GM, you either need to bring your own or borrow from a friend. Likewise, there is no store credit. And while I'm confident I could get a print-out of a scenario if I asked for one, they aren't generally available. So I buy my own scenarios, print them myself, provide my own supplies, etc. And that's fine. But I expect the need to do these things means GM availability suffers.

I know. And I'm sorry your coordinator doesn't do these things. I'm a pretty big believer in OrgPlay and really work to reward my volunteers who keep those programs alive (no matter what system, by the way). My suggestion to you is to get the coordinator to start making his way toward this concept. And the stores who host you make money off you; they should be willing to do these things. If they aren't find somewhere that is. If you want to put store owners in touch with me as someone who can give them real numbers on how successful things like this can be, please feel free to PM me.

But more than anything else, that post was written for a fellow coordinator who is struggling to find GMs. If he even tries a few of those things I listed (and not just the incentives, but the methods) then perhaps he won't struggle as much.

Once again, this works for me. There is no reason it cannot work for you.

[JohnF]

Drogon wrote:

We charge a mere $2 per player for each game which is what we use to buy the GM gift certificates. Sometimes we end up in the positive. Sometimes we end up in the red. Usually, this balances out. No one ever complains about having to pay $2 for 4+ hours of entertainment.

Well, nobody you hear about, anyway.

We have two nearby stores that offer PFS. One just provides gaming space for free; the other charges a table fee ($4), but returns it in store credit to the GM.

There are a few players who only play at the 'free' store because that $4 (or $8, for a couple) is a significant chunk of their gaming budget. If the store that charges were the only PFS place in town then we probably wouldn't see those players.

They also never attend even our very local conventions, even if they could get a free badge for GMing games, because the incremental cost (public transport on multiple days to get to the location; hotel prices for food & drink, etc.) is money they'd rather spend on gaming stuff (which they do purchase at the FLGS, even though it would usually be cheaper to buy from Amazon).

[Drogon]

So much negativity. It grows wearisome.

[Unklbuck]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Unklbuck wrote:

Maybe I'm just a cranky old fart but as much as I am for DM'ing to give back to the community the rewards are sometime just too little.

Lets see....gonna run scenario X-00...shell out 3.99 to Paizo for the scenario.

Oh look...who's the dumba$$ that drew the map in all diagonal squares on a 10' square grid...doesn't anybody edit this stuff?

So you don't want to GM because the scenarios are poor quality. Okay, fair enough. Yes, you sound like a cranky old fart.

Quote:

Order food from site...shell out 15.00, buy a splat book or box of mini's for 20.00...got to support the store right?

No, of course not. Where do you game, honestly? Who expects GMs to shell out $35? Or are you just trolling?

Quote:

Start game...and listen to closet thespian blather on about what color socks their PC is wearing..and then what color they change to every 4 minutes...not kidding here.

I would recommend that you take a look through GM 201. There's advice there about keeping tables moving and time control.

Quote:

Give one of your just purchased mini's to brand mew player because they think its cool and you'll do whatever it takes to keep them interested.

No, of course not. Where do you game, honestly? Who expects GMs to just give away their property to players? or are you just trolling?

Quote:

Now have the to give the blithering thespian a ride home after the game is over because he wasted so much time he missed his bus and doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together because I'm a nice...then listen to his next character concept of a singing bard where he'll write his own songs and sing them at the table.

No, of course not. Maybe it's the teacher-instincts in me, but I can't imagine "give players a ride home" to be part of the GM expectation. In addition to everything else, it's stupidly dangerous.

On the other hand, I can understand why GMs at your venue "bail, for whatever reason." They're expected to pay $35, hand out free stuff to...

Try not being a patronizing A$$ Chris

1. I don't mind shelling out 3.99 for a scenario
2. A little bit of editing and guidelines on paizo's part makes GM prep easier
3. I usually game evenings...I will buy food on site or get some delivery...not an uncommon practice.
4. I usually try to buy something from the store..scenario, map pack, minis...whatever just to support the store for hosting
5. All the minis I use are 3.5 or Paizo plastic minis...If I have a brand new player who really like the mini I loaned him/her ...and I either have multiples or I's not one I personally care for...I will give it to them...I'm out what ..$4.00...big deal if it means they are more likely to come back later. I have neither the time nor patience for elaborate painted minis.
6. I'm a nice guy and will give people a ride home if absolutely necessary and I'm not paranoid about my safety. If they tried to make a habit or expectation of getting a ride then my inner R. Lee Ermey will kick in but in the incidental case I have no problem

I think I do a fair job GM'ing its just I much prefer to actually play my character in an actual scenario and see how they play for all 33 XP needed to get to level 12. I don't think this is an unreasonable expectation.

[bugleyman]

Drogon wrote:

So much negativity. It grows wearisome.

Maybe it's not so much negativity as it is people telling you that your experience is not necessarily shared.

[Dragnmoon]

This is what I normally do when I can't get a GM, I cancel the game and warn the players that there will not be a game for them. Every time except for once one of the players decided to GM at that point because he really did not want the game cancelled.

if you can't get a GM cancel the game. It is not the end of the world if there is no game that week or a few players have no game. Not everyone has to play every time.

Edit: I have had a few weeks that some players could not play because there was nothing for them, but because I scheduled ahead of time they knew not to show up. Most of the time those same players send me requests for games they can play for a future schedule.

[Drogon]

bugleyman wrote:

Drogon wrote:

So much negativity. It grows wearisome.

Maybe it's not so much negativity as it is people telling you that your experience is not necessarily shared.

Entirely accurate. I do not have any of the problems everyone else seems to have.

I guess I'm confused by how that means I'm doing it wrong.

[Finlanderboy]

Drogon wrote:

So much negativity. It grows wearisome.

I am sorry, you are getting that. I support what you say and you points avidly. If you were not contirbuting I would nto have followed this thread. So your words are important to many.

As for me. I do not mind paying to play the game. If someone charges me 5 dollars or less I would happily pay that. what usually irks me about the places that charge is that I can not bring or order food/drinks in to their store other from them.

If a store does not charge me I make a point to purchase something from them.

Now my biggest annoyance preppng to dm is printing out the mods when I DM. I would love a player/store to do that for me.

Unklbuck I would suggest you organize events. Pick events you can get credit for.

[WalterGM]

Drogon wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

Drogon wrote:

So much negativity. It grows wearisome.

Maybe it's not so much negativity as it is people telling you that your experience is not necessarily shared.

Entirely accurate. I do not have any of the problems everyone else seems to have.

I guess I'm confused by how that means I'm doing it wrong.

I don't think you're doing it wrong. I think that PFS is big enough to allow for multiple systems of community organization to operate within it.

We just had our system shot down. You didn't. I imagine if the clarification had been that replaying for no credit is always allowed, without a stipulation, you would be in a similar boat to the one we are in now.

[Acedio]

Drogon wrote:

I guess I'm confused by how that means I'm doing it wrong.

Nobody's telling you're doing it wrong. What we are telling you is the downsides of your system that are non-issues for you are undesirable and problematic for us.

[Chris Mortika]

Unklbuck wrote:

Try not being a patronizing A$$ Chris.

You're reading a tone into my comments that isn't there. I'm taking your description of "why you think GMing is a bad investment" as honest, and I'm appalled.

Quote:

1. I don't mind shelling out 3.99 for a scenario.

But you do! That's one of your objections. So let's say you don't mind paying for scenarios. Then why even mention it?

Quote:

3. I usually game evenings...I will buy food on site or get some delivery...not an uncommon practice.

4. I usually try to buy something from the store..scenario, map pack, minis...whatever just to support the store for hosting.

Hey! I'm going by what you wrote. You don't like to GM. Why not? Because the rewards don't measure up to what you have to shell out, including buying food and product support. Am I missing something??

But that argument doesn't make sense to me. Do you pay for food when you play? Do you buy something to support the store when you play? If so, how is that one of the burdens of GMing? If you don't buy food when you play, but only when you GM, then why?

Quote:

5. All the minis I use are 3.5 or Paizo plastic minis...If I have a brand new player who really like the mini I loaned him/her ...and I either have multiples or I's not one I personally care for...I will give it to them...I'm out what ..$4.00...big deal if it means they are more likely to come back later. I have neither the time nor patience for elaborate painted minis.

6. I'm a nice guy and will give people a ride home if absolutely necessary and I'm not paranoid about my safety. If they tried to make a habit or expectation of getting a ride then my inner R. Lee Ermey will kick in but in the incidental case I have no problem.

Okay, so, you give away miniatures, and you give rides to people. Great. You're a nice guy. But you're listing these as burdens for GMing, that the rewards don't measure up to. So what's going on? You're only a nice guy when you GM? Why do you consider this the responsibility of the GM?

That's the crux of my question, Unkabuck. Why is giving away stuff the GM's responsibility?

I ask, because you're arguing that that's why you don't like to GM. The rewards aren't worth all the negative stuff, all the money you have to lay out, the rides the GM has to provide.

I'm here to say: none of that is among the GM responsibilities in the Guide. And none of those expectations are placed on the GMs around here. If that's the expectation in Florida, then you should have a serious heart-to-heart with your Venture Officers.

The alternative is that you're a nice guy all the time. You support the stores. You hand over gifts to new players. You patiently listen to people whose RP-style you find tedious, even when you're a player. Okay. But then why list all that as reasons you don't like to GM?

It seems you have one, legitimate gripe as a GM: you don't like Paizo's standards for editing. Some maps have diagonal corridors and 10' squares.

Quote:

I much prefer to actually play my character in an actual scenario and see how they play for all 33 XP needed to get to level 12. I don't think this is an unreasonable expectation.

Sigh. How does playing for no credit help that?

[Drogon]

bugleyman, Walter Sheppard and Acedio wrote:

Things...

Fair points, guys. Sorry to add inadvertently to the negativity.

Let me fall back on what Acedio told me a bit ago: I'm evangelizing. I have a system that works. It is successful at attracting a constant stream of new players. It is successful at attracting GMs to run every slot I need run (and I instituted this same system for local gaming conventions where we need 100+ slots covered in a weekend, by the way, and it worked there, too). It is successful at maintaining a large, statewide network of players. It is successful at selling product and keeping me in a position where I can pay my bills. It is successful at not creating many of the problems that are being brought up in this thread. It is successful at keeping the lives and jobs of myself and the many coordinators (and VO's) in my area stress-free.

The things I do are proven to be successful.

I'm showing you what I do and trying to convince you that you can have all those same successes. Will you have to change some habits? Will you have to re-train some players/GMs? Will you have to work more closely with neighboring stores or with store owners (if you're an independent coordinator without a store)?

Yes, to all of that. And likely more.

But I've evangelized to Benn Roe, Dragnmoon, and various others on these topics many times in the past (and not just replay, but OrgPlay management in general, such as the GM recruiting above). And when they have adopted the strategies I propose, they become successful, too. Even Benn Roe admitted that (though I doubt he will credit me for sparking his conversion).

People are putting up barriers to even trying what I propose. That approach is certain to fail, or at least leave you mired in the same problems you are currently experiencing. And the fact that some of the people putting up barriers are VOs is of concern to me. That shouldn't be happening.

[nosig]

Wow...

I support my local store.

I support my local judges.

I support my local players.

I do this because it is fun - "if it's not fun, don't do it".

I try to buy something for my hobby in my local store everytime I am in there, and go there some times just to buy something.

I print scenarios, or buy scenarios, or supply (printed) handouts/maps/minis/tokens(to use for monsters)/a hundred other things to support someone running a game, or just bring the judge a cold bottle of water during a game...

I give beginers folders, sheet protectors, something I call a "starter pack" of stuff for someone just starting out. I often hand out dice sets, or minis, or ... heck, another bottle of cold water during a game (and sometimes a breath-mint)...

and I do all this because I like to, and I like my hobby, and I like the people in it. And because I can now, and there was a time I couldn't...

heck, I have more than once rented a meeting room when an event I was attending ran out of space... just because at that time I could, and someone needed to do it. And I'll likely do it again I'm sure...

sorry - I just needed to get that out there...

[Magical_Beast]

Chris Mortika wrote:

...several cogent points rationally addressed by Mr. Mortika...

I'm here to say: none of that is among the GM responsibilities in the Guide. And none of those expectations are placed on the GMs around here. If that's the expectation in Florida, then you should have a serious heart-to-heart with your Venture Officers.

/lurk off

Small clarification - Andy mis-identified Unklbuck in his post. I do not believe he is a Florida resident.

And I am certainly in agreement with your assertion that the giveaways, rides, etc are not a part of the GM/player unspoken contract and they are not a part of our expectations here.

/resume lurking

[BigNorseWolf]

Drogon,

How well would your system work if you were hard capped at 2 tables?

[Unklbuck]

Chris...maybe you didn't mean to sound patronizing but from where I sit it sure sounded that way.

I don't care about the $$ cost...all I'm saying is that when you GM you are putting out resources...time mostly but some supplies and incidentals above and beyond what you would do as a player....and that is fine. People need to GM or you would not have any games but the way PFS is setup once you get to a certain point the vast preponderance of your PFS experience will be GM'ing.

Not everyone prefers GM'ing, some will not GM at all, and there are a few you wish wouldn't GM. The way PFS is setup you have to GM a great number of games to get a few Once only replays. Some people GM in order to chase a GM star...myself I don't really care how many stars I get...I just want to play. Applying a chronicle sheet to a character without playing that character is stale and unsatisfying.

I would much rather the system were setup that GM's do not get a Chronicle sheet but they instead get a replay credit after every 5-10 scenarios without limit. Well except that the same character cannot have the same chronicle sheet.

I believe the above method would give incentive for people who are running short on available scenarios to GM and play more. Yes this could lead to Boon chasing but who really gives a rats behind?..they have to GM to chase that boon and that is good.

Otherwise you get people who run through the scenarios ..have their play rate slow down as they are ineligible for what is offered and lose interest in PFS as a viable hobby that that is available when and how they want to. Pretty soon they start bowling and spend their money on polyester shirts, cigarettes and stale beer. Paizo and the local game store loses out on their entertainment dollar.

[Drogon]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Hopefully you're not referring to me when you mention VOs that have been putting up barriers to your proposition.

No, not you. You have been anything but negative in this whole thing, Walter.

Walter Sheppard wrote:

If I've put up any barriers, Drogon, I apologize. I've actually been encouraging you to expand on your game store's set up and have been finding it very enlightening. I'm also going to implement some of the suggestions made in this thread by your side of the conversation.

The problems being brought up in this thread are the result of a misunderstanding of something that's since been clarified. Nothing more. Had the ruling been crystal clear to begin with, we would never have had any problems. It's unfair to associate all these problems with our system, when they're the direct result of the organizers (myself included) making assumptions about the language in the guide.

Honestly, had this clarification been that you are allowed to replay for no credit if you see fit, with all the usual stipulations, my area would have zero problems. I would be posting about how great it is that we have so many dedicated volunteers that are willing to sit at a table for no credit to help out with the new people. We wouldn't even be having this thread, and if anything I'd be trying to encourage you to embrace the idea of replaying for no credit because of all the success it had caused for my region. Your area would be the one that would have to adjust. Ours would be the ones with the longstanding system that works, with the massive player base in our tiny college town.

However, that is not the case. But I feel it bears mention. The problem is that the rule was misunderstood, not that our systems were flawed.

Yes to all of that. It's why I hold so much respect for you. I hope that's clear, and I apologize for leading you to believe I found fault with your approach.

[Rusty Ironpants]

Drogon wrote:

The things I do are proven to be successful.

They absolutely have. I want to chime in here and say that not only are they successful, they have provided a model for all the stores in the area to be successful with PFS as well.

I am one of the admins of our regional website (www.rockymountainpfs.com) and the PFS coordinator to the store that is probably the closest one to Enchanted Grounds. I offer about 8-9 tables a month and follow almost all of the methods that Drogon outlined in his previous posts:

Signing up GMs in advance
Advanced table signups
$2 table fee to get $10 GM Gift Certificate
Providing Scenario Printouts/Maps

All the stores in the Denver/Rocky Mountain area use these methods to some degree or another. I believe it is the main reason that Pathfinder Society is so successful in Colorado.

So these methods do work if you use them. If you have a problem and someone suggests a proven solution how can you reject it without even giving it a try?