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The current system punishes people who play a lot. I can see no downside to allowing people to replay scenarios...FOR CREDIT...as long as it is a different character than the other that has the chronicle sheet applied, and they do not spoil the game for others using prior knowledge.
If people claim that prior knowledge is a problem them why isn't there a ruling stating that a GM cannot play a scenario that they have previously GM'd?
People play to have fun so don't penalize your most prolific players by having an asinine replay ruling that drives people away...sometime AFTER they have shown up for an event.
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The current system punishes people who play a lot. I can see no downside to allowing people to replay scenarios...FOR CREDIT...as long as it is a different character than the other that has the chronicle sheet applied, and they do not spoil the game for others using prior knowledge.
If people claim that prior knowledge is a problem them why isn't there a ruling stating that a GM cannot play a scenario that they have previously GM'd?
People play to have fun so don't penalize your most prolific players by having an asinine replay ruling that drives people away...sometime AFTER they have shown up for an event.
Unklbuck, a table with one player at it replaying isn't that bad... It's a table with 1 new player and 5 replayers that's really terrible.
As discussed above, unlimited replay drives new players out. New players are the lifeblood...
Not allowing people to replay for no credit isn't punishment for having played everything. It's an important step to help make every session of PFS as awesome as possible.
If you're a prolific player, PFS is not designed to be your only game. Play an Adventure Path, hell play FATE.
There's going to be organized play coming up for the Adventure Card Game.
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I completely agree with Acedio. We had someone sit in a game (used pre-gen) with four players two weeks ago because she had played all three of the scenarios being offered. I guess from now on we tell folks forget it, sorry you drove 40 min to get here. Go home or twiddle your thumbs and watch everyone else have fun. What is the purpose? Why does Paizo care if someone plays for no credit? It adds an unnecessary rule that will discourage your most frequent players from showing up to regular events. Senseless and not good for the gaming community we are trying to build. Please change the ruling.7. There are exactly 0 businesses that have a business plan that is designed to make things more difficult for frequent customers :)
My entire problem with this is that it's highly damaging to communities that meet frequently. It alienates players who want to play but don't feel comfortable GMing. It prevents high frequency players who also GM from enjoying a casual game at their leisure. It pushes the same high frequency players into a funnel where they GM for no credit, or have to compete with other GMs to be present at game day (because there are fewer GM slots than player slots, of course).
And the crappiest part is that the people who get hurt by it the most are the people who spend the most time in the community.
And we're supposed to tell these people to go home? =\
If you have an RSVP system, where you announce your scenarios at least a week, but up to a month or more ahead of time, and you only guarantee a seat to those who RSVP...
They why would anyone drive 2 hours to get anywhere without first checking if they can play what's being offered at that game day?
And if you aren't using an RSVP system, then you are hurting your community more than not allowing unlimited replay for no credit.
Requiring RSVPs solves this entire problem.
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The current system punishes people who play a lot. I can see no downside to allowing people to replay scenarios...FOR CREDIT...as long as it is a different character than the other that has the chronicle sheet applied, and they do not spoil the game for others using prior knowledge.
If people claim that prior knowledge is a problem them why isn't there a ruling stating that a GM cannot play a scenario that they have previously GM'd?
People play to have fun so don't penalize your most prolific players by having an asinine replay ruling that drives people away...sometime AFTER they have shown up for an event.
I get the desire to play as much as you possibly can. Trust me, I do. I'd play every game day if I had the time.
But there are a finite number of scenarios. There always will be. All Paizo is producing right now, is 2 scenarios per month.
Eventually, if you play at a rate of more than 2 to 4 times a month, you will run out of scenarios you can play pretty quickly.
Personally, I rarely go see a movie more than once. I would get bored, real quick, if all I could do was replay scenarios. Especially if I'm replaying the same one more than once.
If its every once in awhile, I understand, or if you don't know when you'll get to play until a few days beforehand. It does kinda suck when the game day you could play at doesn't have anything you can play.
There is no perfect solution. But allowing replay for no credit I do not feel is the correct solution.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I don't know Andrew. It still seems to me (continuing our discussion from before), that the RSVP system as you've just presented it is just preemptively preventing people from attending your event.
You're right, I don't think anyone would drive 2 hours after checking to see that they can't play. But the bottom line with that RSVP system or getting turned away in person is the same—that person doesn't get to participate. And I think that's not going to help your community grow.
Ideally there should be a way to encourage people to continue attending while attracting new people without turning anyone away. Hopefully adding APs and Modules to game days can help work towards this in my area. But I don't think simply following an RSVP system solves this.
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Well from a business model not allowing replays is just stupid.
1. people like playing PF.
2. Some people don't get to ply with a regular group due to their work schedules.
3. PFS is available...Great!!
4. Go to store...play PFS...spend money on PF product. Want to play an Angelkin Inquisitor with alternate traits...that's 3 books beyong the Core book that you have to buy to be legal.
5. I buy product at the store to support the store, I know since PF came out I have spent over $3000.00 on Paizo product or PFS online materials. If I have no reason to go to the store I would buy less and buy online...and that hurts the actual stores big time. Not really sure if Paizo cares if their product is purchased at a store or online but I;m positive the storeowners do.
6. Now I've played a lot and am starting to run out of scenarios...hmm can GM some but my work schedule doesn't allow me much time off. I certainly cannot work on PFS stuff during work because not paying attention can get me or others killed or maimed...so no PFS prep at work.
7. Getting to the point of not being allowed to play as much as I would like due to running out of scenarios. Paizo prints a new book...I would certainly like to buy it and apply whatever I find interesting in it to a new PFS character...but why bother? probably won't be able to play them anyway.
Bottom line is don't drive your customers away from their preferred game and away from the stores.
If you don't personally agree with replays...fine...don't replay scenarios for yourself but allow others to do so if so inclined.
This is economics 101...give the customers what they want especially since it costs NOTHING...ZIP...NADDA but will drive sales and help keep stores open.
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I don't know Andrew. It still seems to me (continuing our discussion from before), that the RSVP system as you've just presented it is just preemptively preventing people from attending your event.
You're right, I don't think anyone would drive 2 hours after checking to see that they can't play. But the bottom line with that RSVP system or getting turned away in person is the same—that person doesn't get to participate. And I think that's not going to help your community grow.
Ideally there should be a way to encourage people to continue attending while attracting new people without turning anyone away. Hopefully adding APs and Modules to game days can help work towards this in my area. But I don't think simply following an RSVP system solves this.
Our region is growing quite nicely actually. We've had the same RSVP system in play since Ryan Bolduan started organizing PFS in the Twin Cities in early 2011 as our first Venture-Captain. And we started at like 2 tables, and now have almost 600 people signed up on our meetup site (granted, probably only 200 have been active in the last 3 months). Still, that's pretty significant growth, and we keep getting new people all the time.
We don't get very many walkups, because most of the time people hear of the event, we make sure that they know about our meetup site and RSVP system. Very rarely does someone just walk up and want to play. And those who have, most of the time, can't sit and play that day anyways.
True story. Wife was going to hang out with a friend the other day. So I thought I'd check to see if a game was available. I'd played everything offered. So I went to a movie instead.
Didn't deter me from checking the next week, or even the game day set up for 2 days later.
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Well from a business model not allowing replays is just stupid.
1. people like playing PF.
2. Some people don't get to ply with a regular group due to their work schedules.
3. PFS is available...Great!!
4. Go to store...play PFS...spend money on PF product. Want to play an Angelkin Inquisitor with alternate traits...that's 3 books beyong the Core book that you have to buy to be legal.
5. I buy product at the store to support the store, I know since PF came out I have spent over $3000.00 on Paizo product or PFS online materials. If I have no reason to go to the store I would buy less and buy online...and that hurts the actual stores big time. Not really sure if Paizo cares if their product is purchased at a store or online but I;m positive the storeowners do.
6. Now I've played a lot and am starting to run out of scenarios...hmm can GM some but my work schedule doesn't allow me much time off. I certainly cannot work on PFS stuff during work because not paying attention can get me or others killed or maimed...so no PFS prep at work.
7. Getting to the point of not being allowed to play as much as I would like due to running out of scenarios. Paizo prints a new book...I would certainly like to buy it and apply whatever I find interesting in it to a new PFS character...but why bother? probably won't be able to play them anyway.
Bottom line is don't drive your customers away from their preferred game and away from the stores.
If you don't personally agree with replays...fine...don't replay scenarios for yourself but allow others to do so if so inclined.
This is economics 101...give the customers what they want especially since it costs NOTHING...ZIP...NADDA but will drive sales and help keep stores open.
it would be interesting if Drogon came on this thread to comment. Because he has some "on the ground as a store owner" anecdotes for why allowing unlimited replay is bad for the game. How doing so has actually lead to the downfall of many other organized campaigns.
I definitely understand that you desire to play the game. And you like to play as often as you can.
But there are a finite number of scenarios. And two scenarios get put out every month.
Literally, if you play more than 2 to 4 times a month and are brand new right now, you will run out of scenarios in about 2 years.
If you play 2 or more times a week, you will run out of scenarios much more quickly than that.
This game was never meant to be played that often. But it is definitely encouraging to see the passion at which people devour this campaign. I'm not sure why the campaign should modify a rule that's in place for a very good reason, to satisfy the few who play so much, that they play themselves out of things to play.
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OK then so the solution is to play less??
Why not just find a different game...one that doesn't penalize you for being passionate about it...and spend the next several thousand dollars of gaming money on it instead?
Brilliant marketing strategy Paizo.
When I first started playing this game, back in February 2011, Ryan Bolduan was our V-C. He basically only had 1 game day going, 2 times a month. He also ensured that most of us folks starting to play at that time understood that there were a finite number of scenarios to play. That if you played past a certain rate, that you'd run out of things to play.
That made sense to me. I was ok with only playing twice a month.
Now our region has game days every night of the week except Monday and Fridays. We run upwards of 20 to 30+ tables a week. The ability for players in our area to play themselves out of scenarios is there now, where it wasn't before. But the increased play opportunities has also allowed our region to grow in numbers by leaps and bounds. Especially opening up week night play.
I would never want to tell someone to play less. If they like to play, that's awesome. Play as much as you want.
But with that comes a caveat. You know there are a finite number of scenarios. So somewhere in the back of your head, you know the more you play, the quicker you will run out of things and opportunities to play.
Your play rate is up to you.
But I don't understand something. Above you said that you work a lot and so don't have a lot of opportunity to play, but that you've played so much that you've run out of things to play. How long have you been playing Pathfinder Society, and how often per week or month do you play?
Have you met folks during your PFS play that you could start an adventure path with? Have you talked to your organizers about adding a scenario you can play within a timeframe that they could find a GM with enough time to prep for it?
Unlimited replay for no credit is not the only solution to what you are going through right now.
Best thing to do is send an email to your V-O's and game day organizers and see if there is something they can do to help accommodate you.
I know that if someone sent me a private email about this issue, I would brainstorm with them to help them find a way they could play more often.
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Why not just find a different game...one that doesn't penalize you for being passionate about it...and spend the next several thousand dollars of gaming money on it instead?
And then you find yourself in that game with nothing to play for credit and can only replay for no credit.
And then you move to another game, spend money on it, lather rinse repeat...
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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What the...? There's TWO threads about this lousy topic? How disappointing...
Happily, computers all have this little copy/paste feature that I love. Seeing as the same posters seem to be saying the same things in both threads, I don't even have to change the quotes I'm replying to.
Paizo really needs to revise the replaying of scenarios rules.
No, they don't. I've been running PFS in my shop for more than five years, and have increased my attendance and number of games every single year. I rarely, if ever, cancel scenarios, and if I do it is simply to switch that table over to another scenario that *does* garner a full group. My veterans are easily able to play in 2 or 3 sessions per month, and end up running 2 or 3 as well. Many of them run and play in Adventure Paths or home-designed campaigns. The inability to replay is certainly not an issue. In fact, I would actually call it a feature: because the same old faces can't constantly take every available seat at a game I get a regular influx of new players that freshens up the community a great deal.
To those looking for more players, try a few different things:
1 - Run a regularly scheduled "Learn to Play Pathfinder" night. Set this table up as a 1st level only table, and use the PFS rules to run it (use Master of the Fallen Fortress or The Confirmation to run it, or use an older scenario from Season 0). Encourage your veterans to run it and try to schedule scenarios that one or two of your veterans haven't played before so they can have a seat with the new players and "show them the ropes" so to speak. I have been running these with great success for quite some time. I get 6 brand new faces every session, and those people often make the jump to regular PFS nights. The GM who runs my session was able to start a campaign up by hand-selecting various players to join him (a group of seven, five of which are now regular PFS players).
2 - When you schedule game days be sure you have a spread of new and old scenarios, and a spread of available tiers. I schedule four tables each game day, always scheduling two Tier 1-x scenarios, one Tier 3-7 (or 5-9) and one Tier 5-9 (or 7-11). This allows people lots of choices, and if you keep an eye on what you've run more in the past versus what you have *not* run, you will not have a problem with players not being able to find a scenario they haven't played.
3 - Offer your players a lot of incentive to GM. Obviously, Paizo does a good job of this already, but you as the organizer can do more. If you charge a paltry $2 per player, you can make up to $12 per table which you can use to give your GMs gift certificates so that they can acquire the goodies they need to GM. Always buy the scenarios you plan to schedule, and have a hard copy to loan out to GMs who are tight on funds. And if someone GMs a game for you, guarantee them a seat at another table of their choice on a different game day (essentially, show them the schedule before you show the players the schedule).
4 - Always schedule ahead of time. Announce your schedule for the entire month before you *get* to that month, and always post regular updates on the state of players.
I have a pool of nearly 100 players that come through my store regularly, and there are another 300 in and around the city that I see on occasion. By following the tactics I outlined above I had a very large hand in creating that player base, and I never wont for players or GMs, and never have any issues packing my store on game days.
I'm sure you have run into the problem of having 5 players sitting at a table trying to find one scenario in common that none of them have played...
Nope. Not even once.
I have coordinated somewhere in the neighborhood of 1100 PFS games. I have never once had a table sit down and be unable to play the scenario they signed up to play due to not being able to find a common scenario that they *could* play.
Not once.
Why? Because I schedule ahead of time. It is impossible to have this problem when people know in advance what they are being offered.
Paizo makes money by selling product and storeowners make money by selling product....period... no disputing this fact, therefore why set a meaningless rule in place to prevent people form coming to a store and spending money?
Pathfinder is the second best selling product in my shop. It sits behind only Magic. I have no issues making plenty of sales in my shop where there is no replay. Maybe I'm unique. Maybe I'm special. But I doubt those are the only reasons. I would rather say that it's because of the single greatest feature PFS has: NO REPLAY.
Why? Because I always am confident of being able to attract new players with the surety that they will be able to find seats at the games I offer because they won't be locked out by all the old guard who will replay into perpetuity, chasing whatever boon or item happens to be on this chronicle, or merely because they're too selfish to give their seat up to someone else who hasn't yet seen the scenario.
LFR died a terrible death over the course of a couple years. I watched as it went from king of the OrgPlay hill to a sad, bored collection of the same half-dozen hangers-ons who couldn't fathom the idea of playing something other than the mighty Dungeons & Dragons. The number one culprit behind this unnecessary decline? Replay. Number two? The ability to create a character at whatever tier was necessary to join a game. Both policies' flaw? It handed all the tools needed to those hangers-ons to lock out new blood.
It's a community. Grow it. That's how you keep from having the problems you are describing.
Anything to enhance attendance and spending is to be encouraged...anything detrimental to that does not make sense.
On this statement we are 100% in agreement. We sure do differ on what is detrimental, however.
I think I have the numbers to prove my side of the argument stands up to scrutiny.
As for having to slow down playing, you're wrong. Conman the Bardbarian linked to a thread in which Pirate Rob showed you that anyone who wants to play only for PFS credit can do so 8 times per month. I spent $150 of my own money to get someone to prove my point for me (best $150 I ever spent, by the way). That's how much I believe in the system that PFS currently uses.
In case it is escaping peoples' notice: I am not just the coordinator for my store's PFS games; I'm the store owner. I will jettison PFS in a heartbeat if replay becomes legal. Why? Because I want to make money. Introduce replay and the money making potential of PFS will dry up just like Living Forgotten Realms did.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think you hit my nail on the head Yumi, I go to have fun, on both sides of the screen.
We're trying to build a pool of GMs. I've offered to 'ride shotgun' playing for no credit, and helping the GM with the scenario. Everyone wins. I pull out an iconic that isn't my normal type, and run with it, and the GM has a more experienced person who knows the scenario.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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In case it is escaping peoples' notice: I am not just the coordinator for my store's PFS games; I'm the store owner. I will jettison PFS in a heartbeat if replay becomes legal. Why? Because I want to make money. Introduce replay and the money making potential of PFS will dry up just like Living Forgotten Realms did.
Drogon, do you feel this way about replaying for no credit, which is what is being discussed in this thread?
Have you ever experienced a table where a person or two are replaying for no credit? How many of these have you experienced? Personally, I have witnessed or played a part in dozens of these tables and have never seen them be anything except enjoyable. In my experience, other players are happy to have another person to help out when combat comes along, the GMs are glad that they have a resource that has already been through the scenario before, so they can answer any questions they might have about the game, and the people replaying are happy to be playing the game. In my mind, everybody at the table profits.
I ask because your name is the one that comes up when this topic is discussed. Your contributions to PFS are astounding and numerous, but, to the best of my knowledge, all your ire is directed (rightly I believe) at replaying for credit. I don't think a lot of the same arguments regarding replays transition over when you consider replaying for no credit.
For example, a common argument against replaying is as follows.
People start "mining" scenarios to try and get the best loot, without giving any consideration to the plot or others at the table.
While this is true when players get credit for replaying, I find that the opposite is true when replaying for no credit. Why else would someone sit down at a game and accept no rewards with all of the risks if they didn't genuinely want to play? Why would those players waste their time if they weren't in it because they wanted to experience the story?
I'm eager to hear your response, as you're opinion carries a lot of weight on this subject and I respect it.
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Drogan I have yet to hear any single reason why allowing replays is bad.
You trot out LFR...which I agree starting a character at any level is wrong...but LFR died mainly because of the advent of MMORG's such as WoW...this sucked people away and it is only in the last few years that people are coming back. This is not because a few old Grognards were chasing people away.
You also stated that not once you have had to turn someone away from a SCHEDULED game...how many people have not attended because what was offered had already been played?...you cannot quantify that.
I usually play Thursday nights...this coming Thursday I will not attend because I have played all of the scheduled games...are the tables full...no. I will not attend therefore the store loses out on the $20.00 I usually spend on product as well as the $15.00 or so on food (they have a kitchen)...so any way you slice it not allowing replays is losing business.
Pontificate all you want but you are wrong in this respect. I applaud you for running a store and hosting PFS but I will never agree that anything that drives people away...even for a session or two is a good thing.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Walter, in 1100 tables at my I can think of exactly two instances where replay happened for no credit.
One happened prior to us having any idea about the rule, as we hadn't yet read the Guide to PFS OrgPlay that closely, yet. I think it was in our third or fourth month, and happened because the guy was confused about which scenario was being offered. Then the GM he had was so adept at presenting the scenario that he didn't have any clue he was replaying until the first combat. He immediately grew quiet and became un-involved in the game, detracting from what had been a fun table to that point.
The second one happened because we actually needed the fourth for a legal table, and the three others were brand-new to the game. Again, this was years ago.
Since then, no, I do not have players replaying for no credit. It is something I (obviously) strongly discourage, and it has become such an ingrained part of the culture in our area that even those scenarios and modules that ARE legal for replay don't get replayed. I'm fine with that.
As I have said many times (to the point I'm sure some of you are sick of seeing me say it), I firmly believe that replay ruins experiences. Seating veterans with new players at tables they can get credit for is not hard. Growing a community that does not rely on replay is an essential part of what I feel PFS is to my store. Even if a player cannot mine a scenario for boons/loot, he is still taking a seat away from another player who hasn't yet played that scenario. Mike has my full support for the clarification he made (and my respect for having the stones to make that clarification).
TL;DR version: yes, I still feel that way even for no credit replay. If replay becomes an inherent part of PFS culture, I will cut it from my schedule in favor of something that will attract a better player base.
Edit: I have a lot of respect for you, Walter. You and I have had versions of this discussion before. TriOmegaZero and Matthew Morris were involved in those, too. If I had players like you three who I could rely on to make my players' experiences as good as you say you can make them via replay (and I believe you all when you make those statements) then I might have a different view. But the lion's share of players out there are in it for themselves. And there is no harm in that; after all, it's what gaining credit under an OrgPlay system is all about. Managing that attitude, however, is what I think we are discussing when it comes to replay. And I know of far more than three people who would abuse any replay rule that existed until it was lying there broken. I'm uninterested in seeing that, again.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Drogan I have yet to hear any single reason why allowing replays is bad.
You trot out LFR...which I agree starting a character at any level is wrong...but LFR died mainly because of the advent of MMORG's such as WoW...this sucked people away and it is only in the last few years that people are coming back. This is not because a few old Grognards were chasing people away.
You also stated that not once you have had to turn someone away from a SCHEDULED game...how many people have not attended because what was offered had already been played?...you cannot quantify that.
I usually play Thursday nights...this coming Thursday I will not attend because I have played all of the scheduled games...are the tables full...no. I will not attend therefore the store loses out on the $20.00 I usually spend on product as well as the $15.00 or so on food (they have a kitchen)...so any way you slice it not allowing replays is losing business.
Pontificate all you want but you are wrong in this respect. I applaud you for running a store and hosting PFS but I will never agree that anything that drives people away...even for a session or two is a good thing.
If you don't want to read what I have to say and understand what I am saying then I cannot debate with your stance. You are entitled to your view.
But please don't drag "quantifying people who can't play" into this. I most certainly *can* quantify it: I have had tables steadily fill with players for years. I have those full tables because I don't drive away new players by allowing replayers to occupy all the seats. I shudder to think what the state of the game would be in my store if people could simply sign up for time slots instead of having to pay attention to what was being offered. It actually makes me angry to think about how many new people I have playing right now who wouldn't be due to not being able to get seats. Telling me I can't quantify that is nonsense.
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So Drogan...your way or the Highway eh?...even though it would bring you money....I applaud you sticking to your stance in the face of reason and self gain.
He believes his way is whats good for the game and what sells stuff. Since I don't own a really cool game store I don't think I'm in a position to tell him what sells and what doesn't sell stuff.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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So Drogan...your way or the Highway eh?...even though it would bring you money....I applaud you sticking to your stance in the face of reason and self gain.
Amazing. You tell me that I am supposed to make money off these people, then deride me for making a choice that does make me money?
Good day, sir.
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You misunderstand Drogan...I made a point that you haven't had to turn people away from a SCHEDULED game...you know...where they know exactly what is offered (which is the way it should be)..what I said is you don't really have a way to quantify who did not attend or sign up due to having already played what was being offered...that is what at least meant...sorry if you did not read it that way.
If people do not attend because they are ineligible to play what is offered then you lose money...all this finite supply of new players you have accumulated will eventually be in the same boat and will not attend. I cannot see how this is good for Paizo, PFS, or the individual store owner.
I like playing...it is my preferred form of entertainment and I'm willing to spend money AT THE STORE if I have a reason to go there...I will probably still buy the product...it is an addiction after all...but if I have no reason to go to the store then WWW.Amazon looks pretty good.
Playing for no credit isn't the same as leveling up that new character, with new product stuff and seeing how the class plays at the table. Applying GM credit to level up a character is the same. People need to step up to the plate and GM and I have time permitting but people play PFS for the fun of playing their character.
I just don't see how allowing replays is going to "Ruin" PFS. The rules are not written in stone...no one has to climb Mt. Gygax, hew out a new stone tablet, and announce to the world that these are the rules for perpetuity.
Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Drogon is not the only store owner with this stance. At GAMA a few months ago, I stood in front of a room with 75-100 store owners on two different occasions. The majority of those owners that I spoke to, some in the Q&A session, some one-on-one afterwards, also held the same stance and applauded the decision that PFS doesn't allow replays. Also, I received far more complaints from store owners that players who filled their seats bought little or nothing from their store. There was a 20 minute block where this problem was discussed above all others. If you have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars to support your store, I highly commend you. You are in the minority from the face-to-face discussions I've had from store owners.
From my travels across the globe, many players and GMs have advised me that replay, regardless of for credit or no credit, is generally a poorer experience than a table of people playing it for the first time. When someone has to sit there and have little to no input in a game other than rolling dice, it doesn't enhance the experience for a new player. They see someone sitting there fairly bored because they can't have input in any meaningful way outside of combat rolls.
If your experiences are different, then they are. But, the people I've talked to in many different regions favor the no replay rule over a loud, vocal minority that believe it would actually grow PFS. In 2.5 years, we've grown from 9,000 to more than 63,000. If the inability to replay was as detrimental as what a few have advised here and in the other thread, PFS wouldn't have grown to seven fold what it was 2.5 years ago.
With all that said, you have my ruling on replays. It isn't likely to change anytime in the foreseeable future. I don't mind continuing to read your civil discussion about it. However, I'm starting to see some vitriol displayed and that is the quickest way to get me to turn my attention to other topics. Keep it civil please.
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I just don't see how allowing replays is going to "Ruin" PFS.
Drogan has laid it out pretty black and white in his responses. The most I've seen you counter with is ephemeral statements about players not showing up and spending money. Since he has actual sales figures that show actual people showing up and actually spending money, your argument kind of falls flat.
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I have no problem with Drogan, I applaud him for running a game store...I just don't agree with the replay ruling.
I just literally forces people to play something different and spend their money elsewhere. The people who come to the store and buy nothing are still going to buy nothing if they were playng something else...Magic (shudder) for example.
I respect your opinion Mike but I do not agree with you on this. Unless you speed up how many scenarios are released per month all these new PFS players will hit he same wall and their attendance will drop off.
Just my opinion as the customer with money to spend.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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I have no problem with Drogan, I applaud him for running a game store...I just don't agree with the replay ruling.
I just literally forces people to play something different and spend their money elsewhere. The people who come to the store and buy nothing are still going to buy nothing if they were playng something else...Magic (shudder) for example.
I respect your opinion Mike but I do not agree with you on this. Unless you speed up how many scenarios are released per month all these new PFS players will hit he same wall and their attendance will drop off.
Just my opinion as the customer with money to spend.
If we doubled the number and released four scenarios a month, there would be people who played five or more times a month who would log the same complaints as we a hearing here. If we released six scenarios a month, there would be people who played seven or more time a month and would log these same complaints. It doesn't matter how much we release each month, there will always be a minority of folks who want more and it simply isn't feasible for us to produce more. Eventually they will hit the wall you speak of.
I respect your opinion and you certainly have the right to disagree with mine. Keep in mind, before I worked here, I was a superscriber who spent money. I was a volunteer GM. I was a Venture-Captain. I have been on the ground and understand the problems you and others face. However, there are solutions to those.
The people running out of scenarios, why have they not started a weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly group that plays APs in the store, and then receives PFS credit for those? Since you can play those in "home mode", you aren't even bound by the lion share of rules for PFS. You can play a goblin or a master summoner or whatever. Even better, since it is "home mode", if a player has to miss a game, the GM can work with them to catch up and work them back into the story line. You also get a much more fulfilling experience as it allows deeper character development.
If you are spending money in the store, the owner isn't going to care of the table space you are taking is used to play a scenario or an AP. If you, and others have as voracious a play appetite as it appears, why haven't you transitioned to in store AP play on a normal schedule?
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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And on a side note, since you mentioned Andy knew you, I'm guessing you play in the Minneapolis area. I've talked to Burl and the other owner from The Source, and I know for a fact they would be willing to work with you if you wanted to schedule a regular sanctioned AP play during an afternoon or evening.
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I agree on the AP approach Mike...it's just almost impossible to get 5 or so people to be able to meet once a week for however many weeks it takes to play. It is just easier for most people to do a one time scenario and that is what you designed PFS to be.
It's just frustrating to look the meet up board and have nothing offered that I can play or have the few that you can filled up and no spaces available and then see the ones that I have played canceled because they can get enough players to play it.
Here in Minneapolis we have a very prolific PFS group...Ryan is excellent and needs a HUGE pat on the back..but I have talked to other players and many of use are running into the same issue.
I just don't see how turning people away for whatever reason is a good thing.
I've been playing the various incarnations of D&D since 1978, and have had many hours of enjoyment...I like our PFS group here and all I ask is for you to give us the tools / ability to meetup whenever we can without impediment.
Just my 2 cents
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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I'm hearing that there are a fair number of people showing up that this is going to affect. If that is the case, why aren't these 4-5 people setting aside the same day twice each month (second and fourth Tuesday of the month) or whatever to schedule AP? They are guaranteed to play something they haven't played before twice a month. The other two weeks of the month they have two new PFS scenarios. And if someone misses an AP night, the GM has the ability to work them in or send the rest of the party on a side quest so no one misses the sanctioned section.
If the group of players is prolific and motivated as you are advising, and they show up for most, if not all, PFS scenarios, what makes you think they wouldn't set aside two nights a month in their schedule to have a better experience playing an AP campaign for credit?
This also keeps you from turning people away. Since it is a "home mode" AP campaign, the GM can allow as many or as few players as he likes at the table. Since it has been advised earlier that people replay scenarios for the story since there are no replay rewards, aren't they getting just as good of a story playing an AP, even if it is one of the unsanctioned parts? Have a player show up with no scenarios he can play? No problem. It's a home mode AP and they can jump in with a pregen, or with their PFS character since your GM already knows what rules bind both of those. No need whatsoever to turn anyone away.
We sanctioned modules and APs for people who like to play more than twice a month. We've giving you those tools /ability you've asked for. Question is, how much have you taken advantage of those other options? How many sanctioned AP chronicle sheets do you have assigned to your PFS characters?
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Well with my work schedule, I had to work with hr just to be able to play. This ruling is basically going to kill my ability to play at all locally due to... well this thing called life. I am very saddened to hear that this ruling will more than likely stand. I can see and understand both sides of the coin. Still do not agree with it.
Why not find 3-4 others in the same situation as you, and set aside some time to play a sanctioned AP over multiple sessions, whether that be at a store or someone's home? As a police offer, I worked 12 hours shifts, 3 on 4 off and then 4 on 3 off. We alternated every other Wed. and every other Thurs. and played an AP over a three year period. There are likely other people out there with the same work restrictions and hours as you. It just takes a little planning ahead and it is able to work very well.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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You don't have to finish the sanctioned sections of an AP in 4-5 hours. You dont even have to make it part of a PFS event. It can be its own, separate night of need be. You can do it over as many play sessions as you like. So, you can do a third of the sanctioned section in week 1, another in week 2, and a third in week 3.
If the playing for no credit is not the issue and people don't mind replaying for no credit, I'm not understanding why people wouldn't want to play something new (an AP) for no credit, or possibly for credit if it is the sanctioned section.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Edit: Mike I would love to do that and have an AP group once a month currently. But I work 6, 10 hour days a week.
I still don't see the problem. Are you playing more than twice a month? If not, you should always have a new scenario to play. If you are, then it sounds like your schedule is a normal set schedule, and you could plan for one day a month to be the specific night for AP play.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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By all that is sane, if you are participating in this thread and replaying for no credit is what you want, have at it. You have a plethora of players in your play group who all (apparently) are in the same boat you are in: you can't find scenarios that you can play together. Well, pick something you've ALL played and play it. Who's stopping you? You won't get credit for it, and you say that doesn't matter. So play. Start a "Greatest Hits Campaign" of PFS and play whatever you want.
Even better: all those of you who argue that the game would be better with GM adjustments can adjust to your hearts' content under this model. And all you players who want to play a catfolk/master summoner/evil PC can even do that. Or you could play through all these adventures as members of the Aspis Consortium and make it a point to wreck all the old faction missions in the most spectacular way possible.
Hell, you could even hand out chronicles and privately track your credit, following all the PFS rules you DO care to follow.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from any of this. Or from any of Mike's suggestions. Or from following the plan that Pirate Rob laid out where you can play for credit EIGHT or MORE times per month.
All of this is in your power. Do what you will. You just can't report to the PFS system that you played it. Why does that matter, if all you want to do is play with your buddies? I am honestly baffled by this argument.
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I'm hearing that there are a fair number of people showing up that this is going to affect. If that is the case, why aren't these 4-5 people setting aside the same day twice each month (second and fourth Tuesday of the month) or whatever to schedule AP? They are guaranteed to play something they haven't played before twice a month. The other two weeks of the month they have two new PFS scenarios. And if someone misses an AP night, the GM has the ability to work them in or send the rest of the party on a side quest so no one misses the sanctioned section.
If the group of players is prolific and motivated as you are advising, and they show up for most, if not all, PFS scenarios, what makes you think they wouldn't set aside two nights a month in their schedule to have a better experience playing an AP campaign for credit?
This also keeps you from turning people away. Since it is a "home mode" AP campaign, the GM can allow as many or as few players as he likes at the table. Since it has been advised earlier that people replay scenarios for the story since there are no replay rewards, aren't they getting just as good of a story playing an AP, even if it is one of the unsanctioned parts? Have a player show up with no scenarios he can play? No problem. It's a home mode AP and they can jump in with a pregen, or with their PFS character since your GM already knows what rules bind both of those. No need whatsoever to turn anyone away.
We sanctioned modules and APs for people who like to play more than twice a month. We've giving you those tools /ability you've asked for. Question is, how much have you taken advantage of those other options? How many sanctioned AP chronicle sheets do you have assigned to your PFS characters?
Thanks, Mike. This is good advice. The concern that I would have is that our FLGS is in a college town and a lot of people have spotty schedules. So sometimes people who have the "voracious play" habits may still not be able to dedicate time to play APs depending on their schedule anomalies (people who work at part time jobs in retail or at food service would likely have this problem).
The other concern that somewhat remains unanswered by anybody is that even if you have a warhorn and plan your events months in advance, people are unpredictable. Some people may not show up for an event that was scheduled, and some of the frequent fliers won't have anything to play. Some walk ins may show up and throw off the schedule.
I understand there's no perfect rule that work for all situations, but I guess I'm not convinced that replay for no credit within reasonable bounds is so bad that it justifies making it more difficult for "voracious" players to participate as much as they would like.
Just a quick question to sate my curiosity though, has anybody suggested breaking up APs into multiple scenarios? That might be a good way to make them a little easier to break up consistently in 5 hour time slots. And it would increase the scenario output. I'm suspecting that it would be a pain to do that, though.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Edit:
After I posted this, I noticed that you suggested scheduling APs outside of PFS game days. This can certainly be done, but I think that maximizing the number of people that can show up at PFS game days is valuable for the community.
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You can say this will never happen... or it will be rare - and I'll reply, if only 1 in 6 games has this happen, then you have one game spoiled every two level... Because you wanted to fix something that is a scheduling issue. which really is all this is.
Those persons asking for replays are not saying "I'm out of things to play!" they are saying "the things I can play are not being offered in my area!".
FWIW, there are actually some people who are literally out of things to play. Especially if they do what is being advised and ask their organizer to schedule the events that they can play.
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Mike said it before, but I think it bears mentioning: AP's can be run any way you like even when run for credit.
Only have 2-3 hours a night? Fine! Want to play any race/class/archetype? Fine! (so long as you and your GM agree)
Once you finish you can earn a chronicle(s) for the sanctioned content.
I have not done this personally, but I have been trying to recruit AP players from my local PFS player base. They don't seem too interested, though. Even those who play PFS every single week.
I personally think the style of AP play is incredibly different than that of scenarios. In my opinion it is highly preferable, but the modularity of PFS is a *huge* bonus, thus its popularity in my opinion.
And yes, you do get boon hunters. I've only bought anything off a chronicle once. Those things are generally just a waste of time to me. But this puts me firmly in the minority of PFS players.
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I would love to see more scenarios added as well. With the time I have to spend on PFS I can chew through them easily. But honestly that is a big reason I DM. There are always more people who did not play it that I can give a great adventure to.
Now you need a scenario 2 people(since if only one person played it they can DM) did not play for it to be not for everyone at location. Since the other can DM it. If that is that frequent of a problem you can get a few more people and split tables.
Now there are tons of very reasonable answers that solve your situation.
Again though Mr. Brock if you guys decide to start churning out a few more scenarios I would still appreciate it. The con organizers I go to place the cons so there is enough new content, and more scenarios would open them up more. But I understand your reasons not to.
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By all that is sane, if you are participating in this thread and replaying for no credit is what you want, have at it.
Yeah actually this is what the conversation is about. The people at the FLGS I go to aren't asking to replay for credit, rather they're just asking for the flexibility to be able to replay for no credit just so they don't have to leave when the schedule goes awry or something unexpected happens that results in them not having anything to play that day.
This whole argument is happening because leadership clarified that you aren't allowed to do this.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Drogon, thanks for taking the time to lay it out for me. And Mike, thanks for presenting that data about those stores across the world that have dealt with replay.
I want to start by saying that it really bums me out that the experiences you've both heard of or seen where players replayed for no credit were negative ones. That's just a bummer for everyone involved, and I certainly don't want to advocate a rule that would ruin someone's time at a table.
However, as I said before, we've honestly had dozens of tables where one or two people participated for no credit. I think there has been at least one person replaying for no credit at every game day for the last year (most of the time it's me or Steven when we aren't GMing). And I honestly believe they were all great tables. I think that any complications that unfolded were the result of something that wasn't related to a player replaying for no credit. While those players might have had a better time playing something else for credit, they were more than happy to jump at the opportunity to play something rather than go home.
Unfortuantely, I have no way of seeing how any given table would have unfolded with or without someone playing for no credit. There are too many variables involved for me to say, with any certainty, that one is better than the other. And I have no way to prove to you guys how great these games can without actually having you witness one. The best I can do is say that, as I've seen it, both kinds of tables are equally enjoyable. Both as a GM and a player (and as a player not getting credit).
The other thing I've noticed is that the staunchest opponents to replaying for no credit—yourselves and others—all come from a background where replaying has never been allowed in PFS. And in most cases have seen first hand where replaying for credit has destroyed previous OP campaigns. Because of this, I think any argument I can make in support of replaying for no credit is going to have it's work cut out for it. I would have to overcome the years you all have experienced where it was a catastrophic failure, as well as influence the minds of folks that have been playing longer than I have been alive. That's a tall order, and I don't think I can make such an argument at this time. There just isn't enough evidence on our side to make a real good case. The only evidence I can provide is anecdotal at best, and a is but a small snapshot of an entire network of games.
In the end, I wonder if maybe my region just has a small population of odd-ball folks that genuinely enjoy playing without the reward of the chronicle sheet. Or perhaps instead it's just a case of "the way you learned it is the way it is," for both those that have been playing with this clarification and those that haven't. And maybe the transition to one or another is what's going to be the most difficult about it for us.
This clarification does make PFS more uniform across the board, which is unquestionably a good thing. And it does give me an excuse to prep an adventure path, which is something I've been wanting to do for a long time now.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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By all that is sane, if you are participating in this thread and replaying for no credit is what you want, have at it.Yeah actually this is what the conversation is about. The people at the FLGS I go to aren't asking to replay for credit, rather they're just asking for the flexibility to be able to replay for no credit just so they don't have to leave when the schedule goes awry or something unexpected happens that results in them not having anything to play that day.
This whole argument is happening because leadership clarified that you aren't allowed to do this.
Actually, I believe what Drogon is saying is that if 5 people want to sit down and get no credit for The Waking Rune fifteen times, there is nothing stopping that.
However, it's not permitted to have 1 person who has already played The Waking Rune sit in at a table with 5 players and expect those other 5 players to get credit. This is what has been disallowed clarified that it was never allowed.
I think you two are just misunderstanding one another.