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This guy is a friend?
My group of friends just doesn't seem to have as much lying going on, as it seems here.
Even when we lie to each other, it's well known, and it is more of a "wink & nod" kind of lying, because we all know what is really going on.
The only circumstance in which there was my old friend, who we will call Jace, who is a pathological liar. I mean, he had an actual condition, and would lie, even if it made no sense to do so, and had no reason to think it would not be seen as a lie, and would deny it being a lie, even when confronted with undeniable evidence.
We had an unspoken understanding, as I was his only constant friend.
Are you Jace? :-)
Ban electronics from the table.
I'm not fond of electronics at my table(s), but I usually don't ban them. In this case though I'm simply flabbergasted. Bad enough to read ahead, worse to use that knowledge to your advantage, terrible to lie about it. But to actually have it Open At The Table???
Take the strongest action you feel comfortable with, given your group's dynamics.
You could ban all electronic devices from the table, if you really don't want the direct approach.
This.
I have yet to see anyone playing off a laptop/Herolab that didnt fudge the stats, whether by "mistake" or not. Fact that it is behind their own personal screen means you have no idea of easy verification outside of actually having them hand over their laptop throughout the game which is no fun.
Fact is, no one can tell me that you cant play off paper easier than an efile. You can write faster than you can type on Herolab and erase/add is just as easy.
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well if you want to play with this person and not ruin the fun he is having...
perhaps have some custom side tracks, change a boss fight to be a push over but it leads them on a short trip to a new boss fight. Or just strengthen some encounters and weaken others (switch npcs or pull from other encounters to make this simpler).
or jump to a similar themed module for a bit.
or describe things differently. It is a cave not a castle, an airship not a battleship. female instead of male, fireball instead of lightning bolt, change names, etc. Move treasure and traps to different locations.
edit:I use a tablet to look up spells instead of hauling all of my books around. I have used herolab as a character sheet one or twice, I am sure once i get used to it that it will be very helpful in avoiding accidental mistakes. I roll real dice though.
In my home games I keep copious notes on plot points, monsters, etc. When I catch a player peaking I announce it to the group and declare "due to so and sos antics this creature is now advanced/this dungeon has twice as many traps."
My tactic has put a big dent in that players behavior.
I'd quit running ROTRL and go back to running homebrew adventures, I think.
In my home games I keep copious notes on plot points, monsters, etc. When I catch a player peaking I announce it to the group and declare "due to so and sos antics this creature is now advanced/this dungeon has twice as many traps."
My tactic has put a big dent in that players behavior.
So, you're punishing EVERYBODY for one player's bad behavior? Really?
So, you're punishing EVERYBODY for one player's bad behavior? Really?
The power of peer pressure.
Just call him Leroy Cheatins.
FWIW - that wouldn't be my first move.
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So, you're punishing EVERYBODY for one player's bad behavior? Really?In my home games I keep copious notes on plot points, monsters, etc. When I catch a player peaking I announce it to the group and declare "due to so and sos antics this creature is now advanced/this dungeon has twice as many traps."
My tactic has put a big dent in that players behavior.
Standard operating procedure in boot camp in the military. One rule-breaker gets the entire team penalized - peer pressure is FAR more effective in changing behavior than individual punishments, and it reduces the troublemaker's feelings of persecution from the one in charge.
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Standard operating procedure in boot camp in the military. One rule-breaker gets the entire team penalized - peer pressure is FAR more effective in changing behavior than individual punishments, and it reduces the troublemaker's feelings of persecution from the one in charge.So, you're punishing EVERYBODY for one player's bad behavior? Really?In my home games I keep copious notes on plot points, monsters, etc. When I catch a player peaking I announce it to the group and declare "due to so and sos antics this creature is now advanced/this dungeon has twice as many traps."
My tactic has put a big dent in that players behavior.
So ... it's a chicken-butt move from the 'one in charge', getting other people to do his job. Got it.
So ... it's a chicken-butt move from the 'one in charge', getting other people to do his job. Got it.Standard operating procedure in boot camp in the military. One rule-breaker gets the entire team penalized - peer pressure is FAR more effective in changing behavior than individual punishments, and it reduces the troublemaker's feelings of persecution from the one in charge.So, you're punishing EVERYBODY for one player's bad behavior? Really?In my home games I keep copious notes on plot points, monsters, etc. When I catch a player peaking I announce it to the group and declare "due to so and sos antics this creature is now advanced/this dungeon has twice as many traps."
My tactic has put a big dent in that players behavior.
Having been both an army recruit instructor (as an NCO and later as an officer) and a DM for 30 years, I'd strongly recommend not trying to use training methods that a well suited for trainee soldiers on people playing a fun game.
Unless, of course, you are playing some weird kind of LARPing in which case it may well be perfectly reasonable ;)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm much more of a forum reader than poster, so thanks to everyone who has shared input on the topic so far - lots of good food for thought here.
After giving it some additional thought myself (and reading everyone else's thoughts) I think for me, personally, what bothers me is that I put a lot of preparation into each game session (as do most GMs). I thoroughly enjoy that part. The *actual* running of the game, I don't enjoy as much.
Where I derive my enjoyment (from that aspect of the game) is watching my players enjoying themselves. If they're having a great time then it makes all of the preparation, all of the time/money spent on various things to enhance the game/etc worthwhile. I like knowing they are having fun. When I'm on the other side of the GM's screen, I like to think the GM is thinking the same thing (sadly, not always true, but I digress....).
Point is, I can't expect my players to want to enjoy the game in the same way that I would in their shoes. Where I want to be surprised by the twists and turns of the story, maybe someone else doesn't. So if they are enjoying the game the way that they choose to enjoy it (even if it makes sense to me) then so be it - as long as it isn't detracting from others' enjoyment (hasn't seemed to yet) - as long as everyone is enjoying themselves.
So for the time being I plan to let it go, I think.*
*(reserves right to completely change mind based on how things go during this Sunday's game session)
The behavior seems completely shameless, are you sure they are even aware that what they're doing is considered cheating and frowned upon? At some tables it wouldn't be beyond the pale to have a rulebook open to consult during play, maybe they think it's more or less the same thing? Or else are they just being deliberately provocative to try to get some reaction from you? I'm stumped.
This imperative to exhalt the "rule of fun" above all else is way, way overstated in these forums. Good marketing, I guess, because the traction is there. You've gotten a lot of extreme answers. If it happened in my gaming group, the DM would make a general announcement, and that would probably do it. "Some players may have been ... this will not be tolerated!" Easy, no confrontation. Singling anyone out is a terrible idea. Shame solves everything never. You'll get denial and bad feelings. Make a policy, apply it to everyone. Does he read the AP alone at night? Well, if his IC actions are too perfect, if you see obvious meta stuff, you're forced to be more direct. But doing nothing at all? I think you'll be irritated again come Sunday.
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So ... it's a chicken-butt move from the 'one in charge', getting other people to do his job. Got it.Standard operating procedure in boot camp in the military. One rule-breaker gets the entire team penalized - peer pressure is FAR more effective in changing behavior than individual punishments, and it reduces the troublemaker's feelings of persecution from the one in charge.So, you're punishing EVERYBODY for one player's bad behavior? Really?In my home games I keep copious notes on plot points, monsters, etc. When I catch a player peaking I announce it to the group and declare "due to so and sos antics this creature is now advanced/this dungeon has twice as many traps."
My tactic has put a big dent in that players behavior.
Cant argue with the results.
Cant argue with the results.So ... it's a chicken-butt move from the 'one in charge', getting other people to do his job. Got it.[QUOTEbavayne"]standard operating procedure in boot camp in the military. One rule-breaker gets the entire team penalized - peer pressure is FAR more effective in changing behavior than individual punishments, and it reduces the troublemaker's feelings of persecution from the one in charge.So, you're punishing EVERYBODY for one player's bad behavior? Really?In my home games I keep copious notes on plot points, monsters, etc. When I catch a player peaking I announce it to the group and declare "due to so andplayers aboutics this creature is now advanced/this dungeon has twice as many traps.I would
My tactic has put a big dent in that players behavior.
Some clarification: the above story is from a long time ago, back when I ran games for my college friends (like 7 years ago now...). It wasn't the first thing that I did to try to curtail this behavior. I tried talking to the individual players about this issue. When that didn't work I put out the general warning that I would be increasing the difficulty of encounters if players went out of their way to "cheat".
I only had to actually do this once. After that whenever i thought a player was cheating this way I would say something like "remember the policy on reading ahead/reading monster stats of critters we are currently fighting". That worked out well. The other players all agreed this was a good idea. Peer pressure worked well.
So, moral of the story; every group is different :-)
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I'm much more of a forum reader than poster, so thanks to everyone who has shared input on the topic so far - lots of good food for thought here.
After giving it some additional thought myself (and reading everyone else's thoughts) I think for me, personally, what bothers me is that I put a lot of preparation into each game session (as do most GMs). I thoroughly enjoy that part. The *actual* running of the game, I don't enjoy as much.
Where I derive my enjoyment (from that aspect of the game) is watching my players enjoying themselves. If they're having a great time then it makes all of the preparation, all of the time/money spent on various things to enhance the game/etc worthwhile. I like knowing they are having fun. When I'm on the other side of the GM's screen, I like to think the GM is thinking the same thing (sadly, not always true, but I digress....).
Point is, I can't expect my players to want to enjoy the game in the same way that I would in their shoes. Where I want to be surprised by the twists and turns of the story, maybe someone else doesn't. So if they are enjoying the game the way that they choose to enjoy it (even if it makes sense to me) then so be it - as long as it isn't detracting from others' enjoyment (hasn't seemed to yet) - as long as everyone is enjoying themselves.
So for the time being I plan to let it go, I think.*
*(reserves right to completely change mind based on how things go during this Sunday's game session)
Unless it is ruining the fun for everyone else you've probably made the best decision.
Ask him why he's reading ahead. If the answer does not suffice (or sounds like a lie), tell him he's not invited to the next game.
Where I derive my enjoyment (from that aspect of the game) is watching my players enjoying themselves. If they're having a great time then it makes all of the preparation, all of the time/money spent on various things to enhance the game/etc worthwhile. I like knowing they are having fun. When I'm on the other side of the GM's screen, I like to think the GM is thinking the same thing (sadly, not always true, but I digress....).
Bravo!
Back to the point, I had this happen in the '70s. A player bought the same module the day the game store got in my just-released-first-copy, but he wasn't running anything. As we began play maybe 3 hours later, his Elf for the first time searched for a secret door (ADHD, I have NEVER let this be background), couldn't find one, yet had the Dwarf unlimber his mining tools in order to open one specific bit of wall. Guess where one of the really nifty bits of loot was...
I swapped a 3HD skeletal fighter for a lich of level 13 (highest PC was level 6). Never had another problem of that sort, but then I went back to homebrew.
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Are you Jace? :-)This guy is a friend?
My group of friends just doesn't seem to have as much lying going on, as it seems here.
Even when we lie to each other, it's well known, and it is more of a "wink & nod" kind of lying, because we all know what is really going on.
The only circumstance in which there was my old friend, who we will call Jace, who is a pathological liar. I mean, he had an actual condition, and would lie, even if it made no sense to do so, and had no reason to think it would not be seen as a lie, and would deny it being a lie, even when confronted with undeniable evidence.
We had an unspoken understanding, as I was his only constant friend.
No.
Being trustworthy is actually one of my "schticks" within my group of friends. That sounds great, but it means I get to be the guy who my friends like to tell the occasional deep dark secret to, that I never needed, or wanted, to hear about.
Seriously, there are a number of times, in which I feel like yelling "Why would you even tell me this!?".
Yeah, I'd just alter key encounters so that the preparation for taking care of one challenge would end up being completely wrong for the other challenge.
For example, let's say he reads ahead and discovers that the big bad is a fire monster. So, you let him spend extra money, time and effort beforehand to gain fire protection. Then you change out the fire monster with a frost monster.
Simple, straightforward, and the person unprepared for the fire monster is in a better position to defeat it.
I look at creatures usually but don't act on my knowledge.... getting caught metagaming leads to dms having more power.... because dm's tend to quietly alter encounters and kill you with "Army of skeletons in the once secret treasure room"
I look at creatures usually but don't act on my knowledge.... getting caught metagaming leads to dms having more power.... because dm's tend to quietly alter encounters and kill you with "Army of skeletons in the once secret treasure room"
Actually make that the name of the creatures..
Then tell the guy to stop cheating or he's out and that if he wants to know more (In character) he has to take the appropriate skills, class features, or feats to properly determine the layout of the area and everything about the monsters he's fighting
I look at creatures usually but don't act on my knowledge.... getting caught metagaming leads to dms having more power.... because dm's tend to quietly alter encounters and kill you with "Army of skeletons in the once secret treasure room"Actually make that the name of the creatures..
Then tell the guy to stop cheating or he's out and that if he wants to know more (In character) he has to take the appropriate skills, class features, or feats to properly determine the layout of the area and everything about the monsters he's fighting
There are dwarven racials, rogue talents, and traits which will help with finding layouts correctly
A bard gets good knowledge checks, as does a loremaster fighter
And he can learn to cast augury through various means
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I'd say follow what a lot of other people have said.
1.) talk to him privately about it that he shouldn't be looking up the story and definitely shouldn't be looking it up at the table. I've played in games where I've already read the game and I have to say that once the game starts you should avoid reading any of it as much as possible which should be easy as long as he's pretty much not running the exact same game.
2.) If you know that he's using his tablet to spoil the game at the table ban him from tablet/cpu use at the table. Give him a first warning mind you that this is coming if he doesn't quit but seriously drop it on him if he doesn't. He can't look it all up at the table if he doesn't have the access.
3.) tweak things a little bit. Change up non essential encounters with different monsters, stall an important encounter a day, or push one forward.
4.) Remember that even though it's an ap you can totally add your own stuff. Your players with any luck have characters you are interested with their own narratives going on beside that of the ap, find ways to incorporate them and weave between them, further muddying the waters and making it harder for your player to determine whether the narrative is in a part he's read or something new.
5.) Remember that if this is how that player enjoys the game that that doesn't necessarily make it bad. What makes the behavior unacceptable is when it starts to interfere with other enjoyment. For example when I was playing CC it had been out for almost 2 years and I had already read it, i knew the bad guy and knew the 1st ap's mystery. That didn't stop me from having fun and I knew that just because I knew the secrets didn't mean I could just rush through since that would be unfair to my co players and friends who were experiencing it cold. Also I now had to learn how to turn what I knew out of game as player knowledge into character knowledge, which really changes how you play the game. Also I knew I could help guide the party back towards the narrative if we had managed to get way off track. So I will say remember that it isn't always bad it just means the player might have to play the game very differently from the rest of the players at the table.
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Allow me to share my perspective.
When I first started playing Pathfinder having come from being the long time DM for my college group I was kind of self-conscious about being the second least rules savvy person in the group (only my fiance knew less being as she never took well to 3.5 either).
Between the loss of control of the game, being with people I really didn't know, and playing a game that felt totally new, I began reading the adventure path. We were running Rise of the Runelords as well and I was playing a sub-optimal halfling rogue/wizard shooting for arcane trickster.
I initially had began reading the adventure path to see if, and what, scrolls we would come across. When given the opportunity to buy more gear after our first couple encounters I downloaded the pdf and read ahead. I then based my scroll choices around what scrolls we would come across. For the most part, this was the only "bad player" stuff I did (in my opinion).
I of course also gleaned where the plot was moving and as a result my DM mode kicked in. I kept my mouth shut and I behaved according to how the AP said they expected players to behave. Our DM was new to DMing (but pretty good nonetheless), so whenever he'd hit a point where he should have been shuttling us along, I tried to move the plot along according to how the AP wanted us to move.
For example:
I was a combination of cautious and stupidly bold when it came to exploring dungeons. My standard practice was "I listen for anybody behind the door. If I don't hear anybody I use my hand-mirror to see if I can see anything under the door. Nothing? I charge in bravely with my pickle and wand in hand!" This bit me in the ass on my than 1 occasion.
Now as far as combat goes, my character was pretty useless. I had a strength of 6 and could only hit things with weapon-finessed touch attacks (1d3-2 dagger damage). I relied on sneak attacks with chill touch or shocking grasp to do anything effective and that was really only on boss fights. The only thing I was generally good at was not getting hit (19 AC? with high Acrobatics). The only saves I ever made the DM roll were when I used silent/minor image. So if your player is reading ahead to get a combat advantage, then you're facing a problem entirely unlike when I read ahead as I lacked the ability to even act of any potential advantage.
Alright. So assuming your player is not justifying his actions by thinking he is helping move the story along. How can you make him stop?
If my DM knew I was reading ahead and simple said something along the lines of "Hey, you aren't reading ahead are you? Okay, good... well don't." I would have probably stopped.
Alternatively, given the fact that I was reading the AP, I was highly suspicious of another player of also doing so. He always went right for the correct way to do things, always knew the answer, and even knew to inform me to check for traps at PRECISELY the moment we came up to them.
I think our DM was suspicious as well, and if so he did something that I felt was a good "f**~ you, shut up and sit down." We were in a section of the dungeon that was relatively safe (aside from the enemies we were currently fighting). I was hiding in the way f$@~ing back blasting with acid splashes in my useless way trying to kill the weak creatures to stop them from granting flanking on the bigger people covered in metal. Our druid (the other player), however, put himself in what I would call a very compromising situation in any other circumstance if the dungeon were not cleared in our vicinity. Suddenly, BOOM! The BBEG from 3-4 rooms away comes charging onto the scene and subsequently begins to f*%* our druid hard. I tried to do something but I was as usual, useless in combat.
If this is your type of player, I'd recommend what our DM did (even if it was unintentional and the player was innocent). Wait for him to take advantage of his knowledge and then f#*~ him with it. If he tries to avoid a trap, post-hoc the trap to exactly where he goes. If he "gets out of position", send reinforcements.
Alternatively, just change minor details constantly. Whenever our DM deviated from what I knew, it put me on edge (even though I was no less useful). It could make him reconsider metagaming.
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Is he actually using the knowledge or just reading ahead?
If he's just reading, there's no real problem. There's a lot of cool stuff in the AP books that will never show up in the campaign proper so easily spelled out.
I also think it's okay if he's using it to speed his turns up somewhat by knowing the base stats of a monster (not acting on metagame knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses, more "Well I rolled a 14 vs its AC which is...15. Okay I missed, we can go ahead.").
If he's actually cheating though...yeah you need to have a talk, that's really your only option besides booting him entirely. If he flat out lies to your face about it (as you say he probably will), he's probably not worth keeping around.
This. I regularly read the backmatter for the modules, especially if they have delicious fluff on the Golarion setting. That being said, the thing that gets me is that he's doing it AT the table. That takes an unprecedented amount of both cojones and stupidity to do it right in front of the GM.
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Been there before with a player who bought the group a module and had secretly read ahead. I believe my player was socially awkward and wanted to "win" so that other players would feel he was contributing and to admire his character. The other players alerted me to the "cheating" and we discussed corrective actions without confronting the guy, who didn't have many friends. Rather, the players refused to take advantage of anything the guy proposed (e.g. let's go down this passage, I'll use silver on this monster, don't open that book) and sometimes would do the opposite.
My players were willing to sacrifice the campaign in order to correct the behavior. This was a method tailored to this individual. With others, I might simply be confrontational. This culminated with the guy getting frustrated and asking why everyone was playing their characters so foolishly. The other players confronted him, said they knew he'd read the adventure and told him that reading ahead ruined the surprise and fun for the rest of them. The group approach worked better than had I individually confronted him.
You know your player better than anyone else and hopefully something will fix things without ruining relations. At some point, though, you'll have to engage in confrontation. A completely "in-game" solution will not work.
He's only really ruining it for himself. But a quick fix is:
Change the trivial secret facts.
If there's a healing potion at the bottom of a well in the AP. Make it be hidden in the nearby shed instead, he'll look in the well and not find the potion, when he finds it later in the shed the mystery returns to the game for him and he'll know you're not out to get him.
Modify the encounters:
So there is gonna be an Ettin hiding in the barn, surprise him with an Ogre barbarian instead, he will not know any of the Ogre ' statistics that way. This is doubly effective for ghost adventures, he will regret buying a quiver of ghost touch arrows when it turns out that the ghost is actually a Juju zombie with Oracle levels.
The goddess of luck:
Roll one d6 before every encounter, 1-2 reduce every numerical statistic by 1. 3-4 leave the numbers as is. 5-6 increase them by 1. This negates the players statistical knowledge without breaking the game or requiring extra work on your part.
The ultimate change:
Realign the villain. Make a new one in its stead. If the robber lizard man turns out to be an amiable lizard Robin Hood, and his stealing is a result of some human nobles greedy sabotage against the swap lands.
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In my experience, these sorts of players are the also Munchkins. They’re not ‘spoiling’ anything for themselves because their primary enjoying from the game is ‘winning’ the encounters. Having a heart-to-heart is not going to change their entire mindset, in fact it will most likely put them on the defensive.
I guess the important thing is to make sure he’s not spoiling the fun for the other players, and then decide whether to kick him or endure.
announce it to the whole group and let the whole group decide in private.