I'm with Dr Deth on this one, mostly. Now, I don't think that the concept of analyzing the classes and putting them into tiers with the purpose of aiding GMs preparing for parties with these classes and developers gauge the relative strength of their creations is a bad thing. That's a sound goal. I also don't disagree with the definitions of the different tiers ...
However, the actual ranking is extremely simplified and doesn't take many important factors into consideration. Likewise do many of it's proponents use it in a far too simplistic manner and put too much weight to it.
If we treat the tier system as campaign/optimization/level agnostic, then it fails at it's intended goals and is basically useless. We need to aknowledge its limitations in order for it to be useful for GMs and developers.
Not all problems have equal weight
Tiers vary depending on optimization level.
Tiers vary depending on campaign parameters.In a campaign where the party gets trapped in a dead-magic plane and has to fight their way out, the wizard - as a class - will be incredibly weak, because it's abilities are mostly useless.
Tiers vary incredibly much depending on level
This is the biggest one I think. The tiers as listed are basically "what can this class end up doing if going to (or close to) 20",
Very good points.
Not all problems have equal weight- well, some have more or less said that the spellcaster who does nothing but cast a single Fly spell on the unstoppable death machine that is the dreadnought is the higher tier.
Really? Look, defeating foes is Job 1. Always has been. If Dreadnought can do Job 1 TEN! times better than any other class, then the fact it can't do jobs 2, 3,4,5, (but it does absorb damage extremely well, so it does job 6 better than any other class) 7, 8 or 9 isn't as important as a class that can do jobs 2,3,4,5,7,8, & 9 just OK. Mind you, they'd make a helluva team. :-)
And campaign parameters? I have played in and seen written up here campaigns with low magic- magic is rare, arcane magic is looked upon with distrust & superstition, etc. Many folks then suggest a Wizard. But where's he gonna get more spells to scribe? His spell selection will be very limited. And Wizards spellbooks can be destroyed or stolen. Sure, it's a dick move y the DM to do it a lot, but it's a big part of the class. If you're Ok with sundering the Fighter best weapon, you should be OK with destroying a spellbook. (Like I said, doing either often is a bit of a DM dick move, but having it happen once is totally legit). Then what? Ok, your wizard may have a feat, etc which allows him to cast one spell without a spellbook, but now you're a T6, 5 if you're lucky. Strangely, the fighter takes only a modest hit.
Now, we're not saying the tier system is useless. But it is useless for saying an entire group of PC classes is worthless and needs spells (or things very very much like spells) in order to contribute.
Ignoring gear is not counterproductive, it is necessary. As you say, gear is something every class is expected to have.
If one class can do X without gear, and another class can only do X WITH gear...that's an issue with the class. The fact that they can toss money at the problem and make it go away (sometimes) doesn't help the class itself, which is what is in question.
Ah, then that means the Wizard, totally dependent on his spellbook has a "issue with the class". And of course- wizards are the most powerful class in the game precisely because they can 'toss money at the problem' and scribe scrolls and buy new spells to scribe into their spellbook. Try a wizard with only 2 new spells a level. T3? 4? Money is exactly what makes a wizard such a powerful class.
A Wizard with only 2 spells per level is still going to be Tier 2 at absolute worst. And its not "money" that makes them a powerful class. It's the ability to expand their repertoire that makes them a powerful class. Yes, this does cost money, but merely possessing the ability do so is sufficient to justify a higher placement.
The thing is, "a 13th level fighter can't fight anything that flies" looks like a lot worse issue than "a 13th level fighter has to put 5% of his wealth to get an item that allows him to fly 3/day".To me, it's misleading.
A 13th level Fighter CAN'T fight anything that flies (barring archers, shush). He simply cannot do it. The class, Fighter, has no way of dealing with flying targets.
Every fighter can use a bow. The class, Fighter, has a class feature "all martial weapons" that nicely allows him to deal with flying targets.
Not to mention, few flying foes have ranged attacks. Not to mention reach weapons and feats that allow a fighter to attack flyers in dungeons.
Now yes, that mundane str comb LB is 'an item" and the fighter needs it. But he needs it less than the wizard needs the "items' of spell pouch and spell book.
It is inexpensive, since you don't need all 94 5th level spells.
While I generally agree (though how expensive it is depends on if you get access to other wizards' spellbooks, which is completely up to GM fiat and in no way outlined in the rules, unlike scrolls which are a lot more expensive), it should be noted that what the post was an answer to was this claim:
(a pretty damn small expenditure overall, considering a Wizard can theoretically copy EVERY SPELL IN THE GAME into a spellbook or 5 and still remain within WBL at any given level)
So the claim was that a wizard can copy every spell in the game five times and still remain within WBL. Peter Stewart answered "that is incorrect, here are the maths". Peter Stewarts post was correct, and afterwards claiming that you don't need every spell in the game (which I agree with) does not in any way make Rynjin's claim more correct or the response less relevant.
That said, if you don't get GM fiat-ed in wizards with access to the spells you want, getting access to ten extra second level spells at level 3 costs 1900 gold, which is a big chunk of the 3000 WBL. If the GM do put in a friendly wizard with all the right spells the cost drops to 600 which is much more affordable, but that's GM Fiat which was to be avoided when discussing things like this.
In fact the DM has gone so far as to OOC warn the party fighters that flying potions are dispel bait for any foe capable of such.
How many times has your DM stolen the wizards spellbook, or sundered his spell pouch?
How many times has your DM stolen the wizards spellbook, or sundered his spell pouch?
In fact the DM has gone so far as to OOC warn the party fighters that flying potions are dispel bait for any foe capable of such.
Once and no times respectively, as far as I am aware.
How many times has your DM stolen the wizards spellbook, or sundered his spell pouch?
IME, stealing spellbooks (or weapons) might happen once... maybe twice in a campaign. It gets old really fast...
Still, I'd say every Wizard should keep a copy of his spellbook somewhere safe, just like every martial class should carry a spare weapon or two...
Sundering pouches barely matters... Those things cost what? 2cp or something like that? A Wizard can carry 10 of them. And keep a couple more with each of their companions.
Honestly, the whole steal/sunder thing as an argument against Wizards is silly. Because if this is happening to the Wizard is should really be happening to everybody else first. I mean spell component pouches are cheap, no reason not to have multiple, but if you sunder the fighter's primary weapon, he's gonna be a sad panda, while the Wizard shrugs, is glad that a cheap item prevented an attack from going to his face and uses his next pouch.
Also, who in their right mind is going to steal a Wizard's spellbook which could have all manner of traps, when they could take the much harder to conceal magical sword the Fighter is carrying.
It's just a terrible argument that really needs to stop coming into these discussions.
I love how the fighter has a lot more money for hirelings than the wizard because buying spells is just SO expensive. I mean it's not like the fighter has to buy magic armor and at least one magic weapon and either of those is like 3 or 4 times more expensive than having all the spells from corebook.
It's not like the wizard, needing less equipmnt and crafting most of his own equipment at half price, would have several thousands mre gp than the fighter to spend on hirelings. No siree. Nope. Only fighters gain wealth by level, don't you know?
How many times has your DM stolen the wizards spellbook, or sundered his spell pouch?IME, stealing spellbooks (or weapons) might happen once... maybe twice in a campaign. It gets old really fast...
Still, I'd say every Wizard should keep a copy of his spellbook somewhere safe, just like every martial class should carry a spare weapon or two...
Oh, I agree. Doing it often is a dick move by the DM. The thing is, the fighter just pulls out another weapon, and fights down -1 until someone casts Make Whole. The wizard is hosed.
Still the point stands. The wizard is even more equipment dependent than a martial class.
Umm... sure, except for the fact the Fighter needs to actually have his weapon out while fighting, while the Wizard can hide their spellbook out of line of sight or just cast one of a number of spells specifically for protecting it. So no... sundering really just hurts Fighters, since their magic weapon is now useless (almost certainly a larger expenditure of wealth) and now they have to find a caster to help them with their problem. Huh... a caster... why I am not surprised, oh right I'm not surprised because caster have lots of solutions to lots of problems (like broken weapons) because their Tier 1. Boy I sure am glad I know my tiers, I'd hate to have gone to ask a Fighter to help fix my broken weapon.
Honestly, the whole steal/sunder thing as an argument against Wizards is silly. Because if this is happening to the Wizard is should really be happening to everybody else first. I mean spell component pouches are cheap, no reason not to have multiple, but if you sunder the fighter's primary weapon, he's gonna be a sad panda, while the Wizard shrugs, is glad that a cheap item prevented an attack from going to his face and uses his next pouch.
Also, who in their right mind is going to steal a Wizard's spellbook which could have all manner of traps, when they could take the much harder to conceal magical sword the Fighter is carrying.
It's just a terrible argument that really needs to stop coming into these discussions.
The fighter just shrugs and pulls out his back up weapon, which isn't even a Move action for him.
You steal it to burn it as magic is evil, of course. Or sell it to another wizard who wants the spells inside.
Come on- the spellbook is a major part of what a Wizard *IS*. Ignoring that potential weakness and saying that the wizard isn't "item dependent" while martials are is just a terrible argument that really needs to stop coming into these discussions.
Except the spellbook is easier to protect then the sword. Virtually any situation where the Wizard has his spellbook stolen and the Fighter does not have their weapon stolen is just a GM attacking a player and not an actual theft situation. Sundering and theft are far more likely to happen to the Fighter and a Fighter without their magic weapon is more useless then a Wizard without their book for the immediate future, since the Wizard still has spells prepared. Also Bookplate of Recall is 1,000 GP (check my items guide). Does the Fighter's Sword have a Bookplate of Recall? I didn't think so.
Honestly, the whole steal/sunder thing as an argument against Wizards is silly. Because if this is happening to the Wizard is should really be happening to everybody else first. I mean spell component pouches are cheap, no reason not to have multiple, but if you sunder the fighter's primary weapon, he's gonna be a sad panda, while the Wizard shrugs, is glad that a cheap item prevented an attack from going to his face and uses his next pouch.
Also, who in their right mind is going to steal a Wizard's spellbook which could have all manner of traps, when they could take the much harder to conceal magical sword the Fighter is carrying.
It's just a terrible argument that really needs to stop coming into these discussions.The fighter just shrugs and pulls out his back up weapon, which isn't even a Move action for him.
You steal it to burn it as magic is evil, of course. Or sell it to another wizard who wants the spells inside.
Come on- the spellbook is a major part of what a Wizard *IS*. Ignoring that potential weakness and saying that the wizard isn't "item dependent" while martials are is just a terrible argument that really needs to stop coming into these discussions.
The big gigantic difference is that the Wizard has native resources to protect his spellbook, and the ability to function in a limited way without it if you're that concerned (or if, like me, you just like being able to memorize some spells without it). Martials have VERY limited resources to protect the equipment they're dependent on - and, sadly, they can't really conjure up copies at will either (oh limited wish, how I love you).
How many times has your DM stolen the wizards spellbook, or sundered his spell pouch?IME, stealing spellbooks (or weapons) might happen once... maybe twice in a campaign. It gets old really fast...
Still, I'd say every Wizard should keep a copy of his spellbook somewhere safe, just like every martial class should carry a spare weapon or two...
Oh, I agree. Doing it often is a dick move by the DM. The thing is, the fighter just pulls out another weapon, and fights down -1 until someone casts Make Whole. The wizard is hosed.
Still the point stands. The wizard is even more equipment dependent than a martial class.
His equipment is far cheaper, unless he's going out of his way to learn a huge number of spells or his spellbook keeps getting destroyed.
But sure, let's say no prep time and no equipment of any stripe. The Wizard is hosed, so use Paragon Surge Sorcerer or Oracle instead.
How many times has your DM stolen the wizards spellbook, or sundered his spell pouch?IME, stealing spellbooks (or weapons) might happen once... maybe twice in a campaign. It gets old really fast...
Still, I'd say every Wizard should keep a copy of his spellbook somewhere safe, just like every martial class should carry a spare weapon or two...
Oh, I agree. Doing it often is a dick move by the DM. The thing is, the fighter just pulls out another weapon, and fights down -1 until someone casts Make Whole. The wizard is hosed.
Still the point stands. The wizard is even more equipment dependent than a martial class.
His equipment is far cheaper, unless he's going out of his way to learn a huge number of spells or his spellbook keeps getting destroyed.
But sure, let's say no prep time and no equipment of any stripe. The Wizard is hosed, so use Paragon Surge Sorcerer or Oracle instead.
No equipment at all, naked to their birthday suit, makes the fighter more hosed than the wizard. The fighter AC is only 10+dex mod and unless he was already focused on unarmed strike his attack and damage all plummet down. The wizard still has whatever spells he prepared in the morning and can now do more damage with his blast spells and has better AC than the fighter simply by virtue of Mage Armor. This is another point to demonstrate that in corner situations the wizard is better than the fighter.
No equipment at all, naked to their birthday suit, makes the fighter more hosed than the wizard. The fighter AC is only 10+dex mod and unless he was already focused on unarmed strike his attack and damage all plummet down. The wizard still has whatever spells he prepared in the morning and can now do more damage with his blast spells and has better AC than the fighter simply by virtue of Mage Armor. This is another point to demonstrate that in corner situations the wizard is better than the fighter.
Except that the next day, the wizard has nada. And the fighter can pick up a tree limb (or burn one of his many, many feats) and still be a fighter, instead of being a class with some nifty knowledge skills.... and nothing else.
Look, I agree, no fair DM should be going around and taking away spellbooks all over the place. BUT! Nor should he be sundering the fighters boots of flying.
Wizard are even more item dependent than fighters.
His equipment is far cheaper, unless he's going out of his way to learn a huge number of spells or his spellbook keeps getting destroyed.
But sure, let's say no prep time and no equipment of any stripe. The Wizard is hosed, so use Paragon Surge Sorcerer or Oracle instead.
A spellbook is cheaper than a sword?
Yes, there are spellcasters who can get along without gear. There are also martial types (like some Bbns, ranger and monks) who can get along without weapons.
His equipment is far cheaper, unless he's going out of his way to learn a huge number of spells or his spellbook keeps getting destroyed.
But sure, let's say no prep time and no equipment of any stripe. The Wizard is hosed, so use Paragon Surge Sorcerer or Oracle instead.
A spellbook is cheaper than a sword?
Yes, there are spellcasters who can get along without gear. There are also martial types (like some Bbns, ranger and monks) who can get along without weapons.
Magic sword, magic armor, and AC boosters. Or the Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Magic sword, magic armor, and AC boosters.
His equipment is far cheaper, unless he's going out of his way to learn a huge number of spells or his spellbook keeps getting destroyed.
But sure, let's say no prep time and no equipment of any stripe. The Wizard is hosed, so use Paragon Surge Sorcerer or Oracle instead.
A spellbook is cheaper than a sword?
Yes, there are spellcasters who can get along without gear. There are also martial types (like some Bbns, ranger and monks) who can get along without weapons.
Nice to have, yes. But a wizard can't cast spells at all*. He becomes a class with a d6 HP and a few nifty knowledge skills.
* yes, a few wizards can cast a spell or two without a book.
His equipment is far cheaper, unless he's going out of his way to learn a huge number of spells or his spellbook keeps getting destroyed.
But sure, let's say no prep time and no equipment of any stripe. The Wizard is hosed, so use Paragon Surge Sorcerer or Oracle instead.
A spellbook is cheaper than a sword?
Yes, there are spellcasters who can get along without gear. There are also martial types (like some Bbns, ranger and monks) who can get along without weapons.
Again, for 1,000 GP a Wizard can simply reclaim his spellbook, once a day. There is no such option for Fighters. A Wizard does not display his spellbook where it can even be targeted for sunder, a fighter almost always does (doubly so in combat). And yes, a magic weapon is far more expensive then all but the most obsessive spellhoarding wizards spellbook. I don't think I've ever had a spellbook on any character ever that was worth more then 200,000 GP. And I know lots of Fighters who have had +10 worth of Swords.
Actually, a wizard might very well pick up spell mastery with one of her bonus feats. We've ran quite a few games where item destruction is common and characters lost both swords and spellbooks on a semi-regular basis (on the other hand, dying was rare) and I've seen at least two wizards pick up spell mastery.
Having even five spells known without a spellbook gets you very far. At higher levels it'll get you far father than a martial will come with only a mundane weapon.
EDIT: Granted, it's not the most common feat and many wizards don't have it, but I don't think it should be entirely ignored.
(a pretty damn small expenditure overall, considering a Wizard can theoretically copy EVERY SPELL IN THE GAME into a spellbook or 5 and still remain within WBL at any given level)So the claim was that a wizard can copy every spell in the game five times
And here's where you went wrong.
"A spellbook or 5". As in (barring a Blessed Book, an item I was leaving out because we're ignoring non-Core Dependency magical items), he will need more than one spellbook to scribe all of these.
Here's a nice post that explains it a lot better than I can.
Cost and Methods of Learning Wizard Spells in Pathfinder RPG
The changes in Pathfinder RPG vs. 3.5 are subtle, but sometimes, they are quite important and can dramatically affect the game.
One of the most important additions to Pathfinder is the new ability granted to all Wizards, the Arcane Bonded Item. This ability is in chosen in substitution to choosing to have a familiar. Instead of a familiar, the Wizard gets the ability to empower any item he chooses as his bonded item. This arcane bond grants to the wizard the ability to spontaneously cast any spell he or she knows, once per day, without preparing the spell. The arcane bond therefore confers on the Wizard the flexibility of the Sorceror’s spontaneous spell casting ability once per day, while retaining the Wizard class’ intrinsic ability to learn an unlimited number of spells.
In order to get this ability, the Wizard foregoes the option to take a familiar. The cost and time to replace either a bonded item or a familiar is the same (200 gp per level of the Wizard, after 1 week has passed since its loss). However, unlike a familiar, a bonded item is very difficult to destroy during combat. Moreover, if a GM is the sort to attempt a theft of a bonded item, the GM is equally likely to steal or destroy the Wizard’s spellbook – an act to which all Wizards are vulnerable. In the end, the familiar is far more likely to be slain during the course of normal play than a bonded item is likely to be destroyed during combat. One is alive, can be attacked and must save vs. area affect spells, while the bonded item never is attacked and rarely ever has to save vs any attack. When it does have to make a save, the roll required for the item to survive is very low.
The arcane bond cannot be used to cast a spell spontaneously if it is from an opposed school of magic. Accordingly, specialist Wizards sacrifice some of their spontaneous spellcasting ability for the bonuses they otherwise get from specializing. A Universalist Wizard, however, has the ability to cast every Wizard spell in the game spontaneously as long as he or she knows the spell.
There are also some subtle changes in the cost of learning spells from ver 3.5 of the game as well. In 3.5 of the game, the underlying mechanic of copying spells from a spellbook was that another wizard would charge 50 gp per spell level as the cost to copy a spell from one book into another. This resulted in the unintended mathematical consequence that a Wizard had to pay 50 gp to copy a first level spell from another book, but could instead pay only 25 gp to copy the spell from (and destroy) a scroll!
In ver. 3.5, the material cost of inscribing a spell into a spellbook was 100 gp x the level of the spell no matter how the spell was learned. This was a particularly burdensome cost for low level spellcasters.
Pathfinder RPG changed the underlying math by adding a new table to the game on page 219 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for the material cost of copying a spell. The math underlying this table is simple to remember: material cost = spell level squared x 10.
While there are comparative reductions in the cost of learning spells at every level of the game as between 3.5 and PFRPG, the reductions in the cost of learning new spells is especially pronounced in the early part of the game. In 3.5, it cost 150 gold pieces to copy an existing 1st level spell from one spellbook into your own, or 125 gp if you used (and destroyed) a scroll to learn and copy the spell, whereas, in Pathfinder RPG, it costs only 15 gold to do this (30 if you use a scroll).
The comparative costs of learning and copying spells into a Spellbook are noted below.
Code:
Method and Cost of Learning Spells – 3.5 vs. PFRPGSp. Cost (3.5/PF) Access to (3.5/PF) Material (3.5/PF)
Lvl. of Scroll Copy Spell Cost1 25 50/5 100/10
2 150 100/20 200/40
3 375 150/45 300/90
4 700 200/80 400/160
5 1125 250/125 500/250
6 1650 300/180 600/360
7 2275 350/245 700/490
8 3000 400/320 800/640
9 3825 450/405 900/810
As is evident, attempting to learn a spell from a scroll is always a poor allocation of resources in either Pathfinder or ver 3.5 of the game past 1st level, and the sub-optimal nature of that choice is underscored in Pathfinder RPG where it is always a poor choice to make at any time.Unfortunately, the lesson that arcane casters learned early on in ver 3.5 was that spells were learned best by finding a scroll and copying it into their spellbook. While learning a spell via scroll was only cheaper at 1st level, it was a bad habit to learn in terms of the underlying mechanics of the game and -- worse – reinforced the rules used in 1E/2E which had, in fact, been changed in ver 3.xx. A lot of players and DMs continued to use learning spells via scroll as the presumptive mechanic throughout the game at all levels, making the cost of learning new spells especially burdensome for Wizards in 3.5 in many gaming groups. This was never the intent in ver 3.5, but as that was the method for learning spells in earlier incarnations of the game, many players and DMs kept using it. Anecdotal evidence from forums and message boards indicates that it is STILL being used in Pathfinder RPG, more than a decade after the rules for spell acquisition were changed in ver 3.xx. Old habits die hard.
In Pathfinder RPG, because of the introduction of the arcane bond, there is an exceptionally strong incentive for all Wizards to learn as many spells as possible. In contrast, in version 3.5, all that learning a great number of spells did was to expand the possible choices a Wizard had to prepare in a given day (and it allowed the Wizard to make a scroll of that spell, too). However, in Pathfinder RPG, because of the Arcane Bond, any spell may be cast once a day even if not prepared as long as it is known. This new ability provides the Wizard with the ability to use rare and highly situational utility spells without having to prepare or pay the cost of creating a scroll to do so. That makes the bonded item an exceptionally powerful class ability – among the most powerful of all class abilities present in the entire game.
Can you Learn Every Wizard Spell in the GAME?
So, given that the benefit to learning a huge number of spells is now present within Pathfinder RPG in a way that wasn’t present in ver 3.5, is it possible for a Universalist Wizard to learn all of the spells in the game?
Well, if your GM refuses to use the default rules in Pathfinder and clings to the presumptions of 1E/2E by insisting that Wizards learn spells by copying the spell from a scroll (thereby destroying the scroll in the process) the answer is: it’s not really economically feasible.
Learning Spells From Scrolls is a BAD Idea
The below chart indicates what the cost of learning all of the spells in the game are, based upon the books that are in use at your table. These tables show the cost of learning all of the Wizard spells in the game for the Core, Core + APG, Core + APG +Ultimate Magic, and finally, Core + APG + Ultimate Magic + Ultimate Combat. As a yardstick to measure how reasonable a strategy it is to learn all available spells, the suggested wealth by level is indicated in the final two columns.
As you will quickly see, to pursue a Universalist Wizard build which attempts to learn all spells in the game (depending on the books in use at your table) is highly impractical – if not impossible - if your GM insists upon Wizards learning spells via scroll. Under the Core Rules, the total cost to copy all of the available spells in the game into standard spell books when using scrolls as your copy source exceeds the suggested wealth by level of the Wizard after 8th level – and does so far earlier when additional hardcover rulebooks are in use.
Code:
Cost of Learning all Spells (Core, 371 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (18 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 40 15 40 600 600 2 3000
2 51 160 142 8160 8760 4 10500
3 43 415 271 17845 26605 6 33000
4 42 790 439 33180 59785 8 62000
5 47 1285 674 60395 120180 10 82000
6 47 1800 956 84600 204780 12 108000
7 40 2635 1236 105400 310180 14 185000
8 37 3490 1532 129130 439310 16 315000
9 24 4635 1748 111240 550550 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG, 463 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (22 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 57 15 57 855 855 2 3000
2 64 160 185 10240 11095 4 10500
3 58 415 359 24070 35165 6 33000
4 54 790 575 42660 77825 8 62000
5 56 1285 855 71960 149785 10 82000
6 54 1800 1179 97200 246985 12 108000
7 48 2635 1515 126480 373465 14 185000
8 41 3490 1843 143090 516555 16 315000
9 31 4635 2122 143685 660240 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG/UM, 622 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (28 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 76 30 76 1140 1140 2 3000
2 91 160 258 14560 15700 4 10500
3 82 415 504 34030 49730 6 33000
4 77 790 812 60830 110560 8 62000
5 76 1285 1192 97660 208220 10 82000
6 69 1800 1606 124200 332420 12 108000
7 64 2635 2054 168640 501060 14 185000
8 46 3490 2422 160540 661600 16 315000
9 41 4635 2791 190035 851635 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells, all books (717 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (31 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 95 30 95 2850 2850 2 3000
2 123 160 341 19680 22530 4 10500
3 99 415 638 41085 63615 6 33000
4 88 790 990 69520 133135 8 62000
5 83 1285 1405 106655 239790 10 82000
6 72 1800 1837 129600 369390 12 108000
7 67 2635 2306 176545 545935 14 185000
8 47 3490 2682 164030 709965 16 315000
9 43 4635 3069 199305 909270 18 888000Note: All of the tables in this article exclude: 1) the beneficial effect of spells that all Wizards get at the start of the game; and 2) also excludes the beneficial effect of learning 2 free new spells upon a Wizard attaining a new level.
Now, in fairness, it is highly irregular to include one of the fundamental assumptions of the game (wealth by level) for comparative purposes and to then ignore another fundamental assumption of the game (Wizards primarily learn spells by copying a spell from another spellbook, not by copying from and destroying a scroll). If a GM makes a change to the default assumption present in Pathfinder RPG by requiring new spells be learned from a scroll, that GM has made a fundamental change to Pathfinder RPG that cripples the intended power level of the Wizard Class.
Indeed, when viewed from the PC’s perspective, preferring to learn Wizard spells by scroll instead of copying them from an existing spell book can only be described as so sub-optimal a choice as to be insane.
How so you may ask? Well, take a look at the comparative cost of learning an arcane spell by paying for access to copy a spell from a spellbook to another Wizard (or more likely, an organization like the Arcanamirium) – and then paying the material cost to copy the spell into your spellbook:
Code:
Cost of Learning all Spells (Core, 371 spells)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (18 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 40 15 40 600 600 2 3000
2 51 60 142 3050 3650 4 10500
3 43 135 271 5805 9455 6 33000
4 42 240 439 10080 19535 8 62000
5 47 375 674 17625 37160 10 82000
6 47 540 956 25380 62540 12 108000
7 40 735 1236 29400 91940 14 185000
8 37 960 1532 35520 127460 16 315000
9 24 1215 1748 29160 156620 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG, 463 spells)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (22 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 57 15 57 855 855 2 3000
2 64 60 185 3840 4695 4 10500
3 58 135 359 7830 12525 6 33000
4 54 240 575 12960 25485 8 62000
5 56 375 855 21000 46485 10 82000
6 54 540 1179 29160 75645 12 108000
7 48 735 1515 35280 110925 14 185000
8 41 960 1843 39360 150285 16 315000
9 31 1215 2122 37665 194285 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG/UM, 622 sp)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (28 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 76 15 76 1140 1140 2 3000
2 91 60 258 5460 6600 4 10500
3 82 135 504 11070 17670 6 33000
4 77 240 812 18480 38015 8 62000
5 76 375 1192 28500 66515 10 82000
6 69 540 1606 37260 103775 12 108000
7 64 735 2054 47040 150815 14 185000
8 46 960 2422 44160 194975 16 315000
9 41 1215 2791 49815 244790 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells, all books (717 spells)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (31 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 95 15 95 1425 1425 2 3000
2 123 60 341 7380 8805 4 10500
3 99 135 638 13365 22170 6 33000
4 88 240 990 21120 43290 8 62000
5 83 375 1405 31125 74415 10 82000
6 72 540 1837 38880 113295 12 108000
7 67 735 2306 49245 162540 14 185000
8 47 960 2682 45120 207660 16 315000
9 43 1215 3069 52245 259905 18 888000As you will note, once the default assumption for Arcane spell acquisition by a Wizard is applied, there is no point in time where the Wizard’s investment into learning spells exceeds the suggested Wealth by Level in the game. In most instances the Wizard has a comfortable margin left to spend on crafting magical gear if the Wizard pursues a “learn all spells” build.
Where can a Wizard go to learn all of these spells from existing spellbooks? In the world of Golarion, while there are many sources for spells across the world, one known source of spellbooks to copy are the Arcane Scriptoriums found within the Wise Quarter of Absalom. Between the tomes contained in the Arcanamirium and, to a lesser extent, the Forae Logos, access to all of the known arcane spells for copying may be had upon paying the above-noted fees. (This is exactly how it is presumed to work within the RAW which governs Pathfinder Society Organized Play. See, Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Absalom for more on the Arcanamirium and the Forae Logos).
Still, it’s admittedly quite expensive to do this. Isn’t there a better way?
The Blessed Book Will Lead The Way...
Yes, there is. The below chart reflects the impact of what as this analysis demonstrates, is the second most important spell in the game – namely, Secret Page. Why is Secret Page so important? Because this spell is the pre-requisite for creating the Wondrous item, Blessed Book.
Blessed Books are fundamentally important to any Wizard amassing a collection of spells. The description of this standard Wondrous Item, (known as Boccob’s Blessed Book in ver 3.5) quickly indicates why:
Blessed Book
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Slot —; Price 12,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DescriptionThis well-made tome is always of small size, typically no more than 12 inches tall, 8 inches wide, and 1 inch thick. All such books are durable, waterproof, bound with iron overlaid with silver, and locked.
A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a blessed book with spells without paying the material cost. This book is never found as randomly generated treasure with spells already inscribed in it.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, secret page; Cost 6,250 gpThe beneficial effect of a Blessed Book demonstrates that any PC Wizard who wants to learn a lot of spells should ensure the he or she can craft one. In order to do so, the Wizard should have an Int of 15 or higher, take Spellcraft every level until at least level 7 and should take Craft Wondrous Item as a feat by 7-8th level. Should a Wizard meet these pre-requisites (and almost all PC Wizards already have the Int stat and Spellcraft skill ranks by default, and most PC wizards will take Craft Wondrous Item at some point), there is no possibility of failure when constructing a Blessed Book over the course of a week while “taking ten”.
It is quickly evident that employing a Blessed Book as the default spellbook for all of one’s spells is vital to efficiently amassing any appreciable collection of spells in Pathfinder RPG. Not only does the material cost for copying a new spell get rolled into the blanket cost of creating a Blessed Book for the mere cost of 6,250 GP, but the number of pages in a Blessed Book (1,000 pages in a 1” thick volume) means that the Wizard’s spellbook library may be practically condensed into a 2, 3 or at most, a 4 volume collection that may be easily transported. (Note: employing Secret Chest to store one’s spellbooks -- and making a 2nd copy of each Blessed Book is still prudent and takes only half the time to copy it).
How much of a savings does the use of Blessed Books to record a spell library have on the Wizard class? It turns out, it has an enormous impact:
Code:Core using 2 Blessed Books (371 spells) = Savings of 85,610 gp vs Std Spell Book
Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 40 15 40 600 600 2 3000
2 51 60 142 3050 3650 4 10500
3 43 135 271 5805 9455 6 33000
4 42 80 439 9610* 19065 8 62000
5 47 125 674 5875 24940 10 82000
6 47 180 956 8460 33400 12 108000
7 40 245 1236 16050* 49450 14 185000
8 37 320 1532 11840 61290 16 315000
9 24 405 1748 9720 71010 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
Core + APG using 3 Blessed Books (463 spells)
= Savings of 104,505 gp vs Std Spell BookSp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 57 15 57 855 855 2 3000
2 64 60 185 3840 4695 4 10500
3 58 135 359 7830 12525 6 33000
4 54 80 575 10570* 23095 8 62000
5 56 125 855 7000 30095 10 82000
6 54 180 1179 15970* 46065 12 108000
7 48 245 1515 11760 57855 14 185000
8 41 320 1843 13120 70975 16 315000
9 31 405 2122 18805* 89780 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
Core + APG + UM using 3 Blessed Books (622 spells)
= Savings of 133,285 gp vs Std Spell BookSp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 76 15 76 1140 1140 2 3000
2 91 60 258 5460 6600 4 10500
3 82 135 504 11070 17670 6 33000
4 77 80 812 12410* 30080 8 62000
5 76 125 1192 15750* 45830 10 82000
6 69 180 1606 12420 58250 12 108000
7 64 245 2054 21930* 80180 14 185000
8 46 320 2422 14720 94900 16 315000
9 41 405 2791 16605 111505 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
Core + APG + UM + UC using 4 Blessed Books (717 spells)
= Savings of 133,490 gp vs Std Spell BookSp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 95 15 95 1425 1425 2 3000
2 123 60 341 7380 8805 4 10500
3 99 135 638 13365 22170 6 33000
4 88 80 990 13290* 35460 8 62000
5 83 125 1405 16625* 52085 10 82000
6 72 180 1837 12960 65045 12 108000
7 67 245 2306 22665* 87710 14 185000
8 47 320 2682 15040 102750 16 315000
9 43 405 3069 23665* 126415 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
(Note: in the cost calculations in the above Blessed Book tables, the cost of learning new spells of any level was calculated at the cost of Access + Material cost until the first Blessed Book was constructed, as denoted by an asterisk, thereafter, only the cost of access + the cost of creating a Blessed Book is accounted for.)
From the costs taken to learn all spells via spell acquisition by scroll (909,270 gp) the cost of doing so by copying spells from spellbooks into a blessed book is reduced to 126,415 gp – a difference of more than a factor of 7!
One of the conclusions which flows from the above is that when it comes to learning Arcane spells, a Wizard is always better off selling the scroll for half its value and using that gold to purchase access + material costs of copying a spell. It is never wise for a Wizard to use the scroll itself to actually learn the spell unless absolutely necessary under the circumstances. The comparative economic benefit, assuming a sale at one-half retail value, breaks down as follows:
Code:Sp. ½ Value Cost of Access Cost of Access Only
Lvl. of Scroll + Material Cost (Blessed Book)1 12.5 15 5
2 75 60 20
3 187.5 135 45
4 350 240 80
5 562.5 375 125
6 825 540 180
7 1137.5 735 245
8 1500 960 320
9 1912.5 1215 405Time... Ain't On Your Side (No it isn't)
So what’s the downside of all of this? The one factor which is not reflected above is time. It takes one hour to attempt to learn a new spell and one hour per spell level to copy a new spell into a spell book. In this case, the number of pages required to record all spells is also the number of hours required to copy all spells. If all four hardcover volumes of Pathfinder RPG spells are in use at your table, it will take an Archmage about three months to learn every spell from all four books. It will then take a little more than a year (3,069 /8 =383 days, broken into 8 hour blocks of time), flat out, to record all of the spells in all four hardcover books, if he or she does nothing else for eight hours a day and is always successful in learning a spell on the first roll. Admittedly, if duplicating an entire spell book without any changes at all, the material cost is half (if there is any) and the time is also halved.
For those who are running Adventure Paths with significant downtime built into the AP (as is present in the Kingmaker AP), learning and copying spells into the Wizard’s spellbooks is a very good use of that Wizard’s “downtime”. It also reduces the free time for a Wizard to create magic items for him or herself as well as the rest of the party.
It's also a novelty in that it's the only post by him I haven't seen signed.
Every fighter can use a bow. The class, Fighter, has a class feature "all martial weapons" that nicely allows him to deal with flying targets.
Which drops him to what miniscule fraction of his overall effectiveness if he's not archery specialized?
Not to mention, few flying foes have ranged attacks.
Sure, at very low levels when you're fighting Dimorphodons and other normal Animals.
But most flying creatures I've faced have had some sort of ranged attack. Erinyes and their bows, Manticores and their spiky spikes, enemy Fighters, with bows, who have Fly cast on them by their allies (or who drink a Fly potion ;)).
Rynjin: your claim is still wrong, as Peter Stewart showed. Also, copying from amother wizard requires GM fiat.
Rynjin: your claim is still wrong, as Peter Stewart showed.
Where did he show that, again? I don't see that he has a post within the last two pages.
I mean the math is right there in the post I quoted.
Also, copying from another wizard requires GM fiat.
Perhaps (though so does a Fighter being able to nab these endless gobs of Fly potions and Winged Boots on a whim, and much more of it since casting services and Scribing Spells is a standard service in the book last I checked, while magic items technically should be randomly generated), but again, in that post you apparently didn't read...
Where can a Wizard go to learn all of these spells from existing spellbooks? In the world of Golarion, while there are many sources for spells across the world, one known source of spellbooks to copy are the Arcane Scriptoriums found within the Wise Quarter of Absalom. Between the tomes contained in the Arcanamirium and, to a lesser extent, the Forae Logos, access to all of the known arcane spells for copying may be had upon paying the above-noted fees. (This is exactly how it is presumed to work within the RAW which governs Pathfinder Society Organized Play. See, Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Absalom for more on the Arcanamirium and the Forae Logos).
No Fiat required (though Fiat is needed to shut this down, at least by the point Teleport becomes available).
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Honestly, the whole steal/sunder thing as an argument against Wizards is silly. Because if this is happening to the Wizard is should really be happening to everybody else first. I mean spell component pouches are cheap, no reason not to have multiple, but if you sunder the fighter's primary weapon, he's gonna be a sad panda, while the Wizard shrugs, is glad that a cheap item prevented an attack from going to his face and uses his next pouch.
Also, who in their right mind is going to steal a Wizard's spellbook which could have all manner of traps, when they could take the much harder to conceal magical sword the Fighter is carrying.
It's just a terrible argument that really needs to stop coming into these discussions.
Wow, your wizards must be really strong to carry all these spell components pouches...
In my campaigns they tend to carry just one, maybe i start to sunder them so they get smart.
Honestly, the whole steal/sunder thing as an argument against Wizards is silly. Because if this is happening to the Wizard is should really be happening to everybody else first. I mean spell component pouches are cheap, no reason not to have multiple, but if you sunder the fighter's primary weapon, he's gonna be a sad panda, while the Wizard shrugs, is glad that a cheap item prevented an attack from going to his face and uses his next pouch.
Also, who in their right mind is going to steal a Wizard's spellbook which could have all manner of traps, when they could take the much harder to conceal magical sword the Fighter is carrying.
It's just a terrible argument that really needs to stop coming into these discussions.
Wow, your wizards must be really strong to carry all these spell components pouches...
In my campaigns they tend to carry just one, maybe i start to sunder them so they get smart.
7 STR has a light load of 23 pounds. How much other gear are you carrying that 6-10 pounds of spell component pouches is going to put you over? And that's before we talk about Ant Haul.
Rynjin: your claim is still wrong, as Peter Stewart showed.Where did he show that, again? I don't see that he has a post within the last two pages.
I mean the math is right there in the post I quoted.
Must have been deleted during the mods intervention. However, your math is clearly incorrect - it seems to state there are 40 level 1 spells in the game, when that only gets you halfway through Enchantment. There's over 100 1st level spells in the game.
Also, copying from another wizard requires GM fiat.Perhaps (though so does a Fighter being able to nab these endless gobs of Fly potions and Winged Boots on a whim, and much more of it since casting services and Scribing Spells is a standard service in the book last I checked, while magic items technically should be randomly generated), but again, in that post you apparently didn't read...
Actually, you've got it kind of switched. Borrowing someone's spellbook is not a listed service, and neither do services have rules about availability. Meanwhile, magic items do - in a small town or larger settlement, there's a 75% chance of getting a potion of fly. Winged boots have the same chance from Large City and up. Meanwhile, services in general do not have any such stated rules - the Base Value expicitly applies to items.
Also, I can't seem to find spellbook-borrowing as a standard service at all honestly, though I might miss it. It doesn't seem to be in the list for Hirelings, Servants and Services and neither under Books, Paper and Writing Supplies. Not that it matters that much really since _any_ services (except spellcasting) are left completely up to the GM. But could you refer to where it's listed as a standard service?
Where can a Wizard go to learn all of these spells from existing spellbooks? In the world of Golarion, while there are many sources for spells across the world, one known source of spellbooks to copy are the Arcane Scriptoriums found within the Wise Quarter of Absalom.
That's fine and all, and golarion having established GM fiat doesn't change that GM fiat is still at the root of it. If there came a new book that said in golarion every fighter gets a Holy Avenger when they finish fighter school, that doesn't mean we can assume that as part of the game rules.
(This is exactly how it is presumed to work within the RAW which governs Pathfinder Society Organized Play. See, Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Absalom for more on the Arcanamirium and the Forae Logos).
Why would the houserules for PFS matter in this discussion? Things are very different in PFS, for example there's no crafting, which cuts back the power of casters noticably.
No Fiat required (though Fiat is needed to shut this down, at least by the point Teleport becomes available).
As much fiat as having the fighter have access to portals everywhere in the world when they want to - it's completely up to the GM. The rulebook provides rules for HOW it works, but does not go into WHEN these rules are relevant. They state how copying works and the price when available, but makes no notions of when it would be available or not.
Whether every hamlet has a wizard with all spells or the PC is the only wizard in the world is completely up to GM Fiat. However, by the rules every small village has a 75% chance to have a scroll of any given spell of level 4 and below, and to have a potion of fly.
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***
Which a lot of the Tier 4 classes still can't deal with. The Fighter can't fly. He cannot make himself fly under his own class abilities. He has no other way to achieve a similar effect, not even a very high Acrobatics will let you catch someone 50 ft. in the air.
***
This to me also kind of reflects a weakness in the skill system. When you consider that by level 5 the average adventurer can outstrip most modern Olympians when it comes to physical performance, it gets silly that by level 15 they can basically only do the exact same thing, just under more adverse conditions.
I'd like to se a Rogue with 20 ranks in Acrobatics traveling from city to city Hulk-style in giant super-human leaps, or a Fighter with 20 ranks in Climb or Swim hurling himself up cliff faces or across the ocean's surface at near bullet speeds with the sheer strength and skill of his arms.As it stands, the difference between 10 or 20 ranks in most "martial" skills is just an indicator of how bad the weather can be when you want to do whatever you're trying to do.
Must have been deleted during the mods intervention. However, your math is clearly incorrect - it seems to state there are 40 level 1 spells in the game, when that only gets you halfway through Enchantment. There's over 100 1st level spells in the game.Rynjin: your claim is still wrong, as Peter Stewart showed.Where did he show that, again? I don't see that he has a post within the last two pages.
I mean the math is right there in the post I quoted.
40 level 1 spells in Core. There's other charts further down that add the spells from the new books.
Actually, you've got it kind of switched. Borrowing someone's spellbook is not a listed service, and neither do services have rules about availability.Also, I can't seem to find spellbook-borrowing as a standard service at all honestly, though I might miss it. It doesn't seem to be in the list for Hirelings, Servants and Services and neither under Books, Paper and Writing Supplies. Not that it matters that much really since _any_ services (except spellcasting) are left completely up to the GM. But could you refer to where it's listed as a standard service?
I would assume "Spellcasting Services" covers it pretty well. Not any difference between "Hey cast this for me" and "Hey lemme see that".
Iffy for 9th level spells but beyond that you're good in a Metropolis.
That's fine and all, and golarion having established GM fiat doesn't change that GM fiat is still at the root of it. If there came a new book that said in golarion every fighter gets a Holy Avenger when they finish fighter school, that doesn't mean we can assume that as part of the game rules.
The two are not equivalent.
The first is a location that exists in the game world. You must us Fiat to remove that as a possibility.
The second is an addition.
As much fiat as having the fighter have access to portals everywhere in the world when they want to - it's completely up to the GM.
The difference being that the Wizard has the capability to do that in Core, while the Fighter does not.
All this really proves my point...a GM needs to use Fiat to make a Fighter do something.
He has to also use Fiat to make sure the Wizard CAN'T.
Whether every hamlet has a wizard with all spells or the PC is the only wizard in the world is completely up to GM Fiat.
Yes, it is. It is up to Fiat to remove those options.
"In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells."
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Personally, I see magic playing the role it does in fantasy (literature, movies, games, etc.) because it's a natural way to allow for otherwise preposterous things to happen without breaking immersion as easily. By making it something with which we have no experience, it becomes much more plausible than, e.g., jumping a mile without any magical aids whatsoever.***
Which a lot of the Tier 4 classes still can't deal with. The Fighter can't fly. He cannot make himself fly under his own class abilities. He has no other way to achieve a similar effect, not even a very high Acrobatics will let you catch someone 50 ft. in the air.
***
Makes sense.
I might argue that magic in D&D has far too many strict rules and effects that are more powerful than what we see in literature, for it to be easily comparable to fantasy literature, but I see your point.
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This is how I see PF tier, based on full class potential, rather than just average optimization. I also assume the characters face a great variety of obstacles and challenges, not just combat. And that their enemies will use a great variety of tactics, not just physical damage.
Tier 1 - Too good (even if it often takes a great amount of game experience and system mastery to show all they are capable of): Wizard, Druid, Cleric and Witch. Sorcerer and Oracles too, if the GM allows them to exploit Paragon Surge.
Tier 2 - Not as good, but still too much: Sorcerer, Oracle and Master Summoner
Tier 2.5 - Still too good, just slightly less so than the last guys I listed: Every other Summoner archetype. Including vanilla and Synthesist. Most Blaster Sorcerer builds (Depending on how one-dimensional the build is, they might even fall further in the tier scale).
Tier 3 - Very Well balanced: Awesome at their main job, but still able to contribute in many different situations without breaking the game or stepping on anyone's toes: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus*, Paladin** and Anti-Paladin**.
Tier 3.5 - Almost there, but could use a small buff, IMO. These classes can be a bit too narrow-minded at times: Rangers**, Zen Archer Monk, Sohei Monk, Barbarians with Spell Sunder.
Tier 4 - Underpowered, but can still shine at their main job: Barbarian without Spell Sunder, Fighter, Cavalier, Ninja***, Samurai... and Gunslinger if those firearms rules weren't so obnoxious (targeting touch AC makes no sense whatsoever, and goes against a base assumption of the game).
Tier 5 - Underpowered and easily one-upped by other classes with similar roles: Rogue and Monk****. Adept is probably the one NPC class to be above tier 6.
Tier 6 - Why are you playing this?: Commoner, Warrior, Expert and Aristocrat.
* Magus is a fairly balanced class, IMO, but it does have a few cheesy tricks. It might be somewhat more powerful than other Tier 3 classes, but still not enough to go into Tier 2 territory.
** I'm not sure about Paladins, Anti-Paladins and Rangers. My opinion on them fluctuates between mid/low tier 3 and high tier 3.5.
*** Some Ninja Ki tricks just barely push the class up to tier 4.
**** With style feats and the FoB errata, Monks might be able to go up one category.
Observations:
- Archetypes and character build might move a class up or down a bit, but probably no more than 2 tiers and this movement is usually downwards.
- Some classes are easier to break/optimize than others, which may skew how powerful a class seems to be.
e.g.: It's much easier to make a really powerful Summoner than a really powerful Wizard, but as I said, this tier is assuming a player can use the class to its full potential (or something close to that), and a Wizard using its full potential is far more powerful than a Master Summoner doing the same, IMHO.
- How effective a class is also depends on the level. At low levels (1~3) Fighters are pretty good, but as levels go up, they tend to lag behind while casters tend to speed up and excel more and more.
Oddly enough, if every class was inside the range of tier 2 to 3.5, I'd be satisfied with game balance. A few adjustments would still be desirable, (mostly spell balance) but overall, it'd be a really well balanced game system, even if not perfect.
This is how I see PF tier, based on full class potential, rather than just average optimization. I also assume the characters face a great variety of obstacles and challenges, not just combat. And that their enemies will use a great variety of tactics, not just physical damage.
Tier 1 - Too good (even if it often takes a great amount of game experience and system mastery to show all they are capable of): Wizard, Druid, Cleric and Witch. Sorcerer and Oracles too, if the GM allows them to exploit Paragon Surge.
Tier 2 - Not as good, but still too much: Sorcerer, Oracle and Master Summoner
Tier 2.5 - Still too good, just slightly less so than the last guys I listed: Every other Summoner archetype. Including vanilla and Synthesist. Most Blaster Sorcerer builds (Depending on how one-dimensional the build is, they might even fall further in the tier scale).
Tier 3 - Very Well balanced: Awesome at their main job, but still able to contribute in many different situations without breaking the game or stepping on anyone's toes: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus*, Paladin** and Anti-Paladin**.
Tier 3.5 - Almost there, but could use a small buff, IMO. These classes can be a bit too narrow-minded at times: Rangers**, Zen Archer Monk, Sohei Monk, Barbarians with Spell Sunder.
Tier 4 - Underpowered, but can still shine at their main job: Barbarian without Spell Sunder, Fighter, Cavalier, Ninja***, Samurai... and Gunslinger if those firearms rules weren't so obnoxious (targeting touch AC makes no sense whatsoever, and goes against a base assumption of the game).
Tier 5 - Underpowered and easily one-upped by other classes with similar roles: Rogue and Monk****. Adept is probably the one NPC class to be above tier 6.
Tier 6 - Why are you playing this?: Commoner, Warrior, Expert and Aristocrat.
* Magus is a fairly balanced class, IMO, but it does have a few cheesy tricks. It might be somewhat more powerful than other Tier 3 classes, but still...
I have a much different list of tiers. . . since combat is the #1 most important task, which happens in every session and virtually every other problem is arbitrary in at least 99% of all sessions coming up only very rarely, we will consider combat abilities to be worth 99% and any other task to be worth 1%. . .
Now under this paradigm, where we WEIGHT the tasks the wizards ability to cast a spell like Fabricate (sorry making some non permanent vegetale matter not that useful) is virtually worthless.
Ditto for a spell like Etherealness since it takes a contrived, extremely rare situation to need it.
Whereas the Fighters ability to kill stuff is valued very highly because it matters in almost every single session ever played.
In this paradigm, the tiers shrink down dramatically, and become:
Tier 1-- Wizard, Druid, neutral or evil cleric/oracle, Barbarian, Summoner, 3.5 options enabled bard
Tier 2-- Ranger, Paladin, good cleric/oracle, 2WF/blenderizer rogue, PF bard
Tier 3-- other rogues, monks
Tier 4-- NPC classes
And THIS is the tiers that matter in the vast majority of game play to be perfectly honest.
Because the deep down dirty secret of this game is that its a combat game and combat is worth way more than anything else.
Ehhhh...combat is a large portion of the game (60% at least), but that doesn't make being not functional in the other 40% not a crippling drawback.
Also frsrs you put a TWFer Rogue anywhere but bottom tier for combat. All that damage doesn't mean jack when you never hit.
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Because the deep down dirty secret of this game is that its a combat game and combat is worth way more than anything else.
If that's your group's play style, more power to you. But don't make sweeping statements like this. Yes, Pathfinder's system is geared for Ripshredkill quite a bit, but it's perfectly servicable for non-combat challenges and many groups enjoy things like character interactions, social encounters, non-combat action scenes (such as chases), puzzles, and infiltrations. Those problems matter to us.