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Makes me want to play a synthesist Gunbarian
Lol not really but have you ever played these barbs?
I mean.... a half-orc barbarian can't effectively have infinite rage with an endless quiver just by drawing and sundering an arrow each round right?
*Edit*
I mean by level three
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No, see, the real problem is that level 17 is WAAAY too late to be getting that benefit. Honestly, level 7 would be better.
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We house ruled that you can't begin a Rage in the same round that you ended one. Solved pretty much all of our problems.
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It's not OP.
It does not need to be nerfed.
Blaster caster is the weakest sort of caster you can build (other than really specific case examples, like "enchanter in an all-undead game").
And all but like 3 (Eater of Magic; Spell Sunder + Strength Surge; maybe Flesh Wound....) rage powers that are 1/rage really aren't even that good even when made 1/round via rage cycling. At least half of them are *still* not even worth considering.
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Rage cycling is no way overpowered, does not need a nerf, and should indeed be given to barbarians as a class feature significantly earlier than it is. The fact that a work around was found only helped the class; it does not diminish anyone else's play. Why mess it up?
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Really? THE ONE NICE THING MARTIALS GET and people complain??? Do people REALLY hate martials that much...
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Do people REALLY hate martials that much...
...Are you unaware of the recent changes to Crane Wing?
True story....
I named those 3 as the only ones that ARE good with Rage Cycling. The others range from meh to "still awful."
And Spell Sunder and Strength Surge are largely dependent on each other to be good. Spell Sunder won't dispel anything w/o the bonus from str surge, and Str Surge... maneuvers still aren't a sure thing (your Tarrasque example is insane hyperbole) and...others can get comparable bonuses. Think Lore Warden Fighter w/ gloves of dueling and greater weapon focus...that's +16 before level 20 (+8 CMB from lore warden, +2 GWF +6 weapon training), and that's really not even trying too hard.
Really? THE ONE NICE THING MARTIALS GET and people complain??? Do people REALLY hate martials that much...LOL actually I prefer martial classes myself to the cowardly mage types, but rage cycling is NOT the only nice thing available and I have yet read anyone post anything to CONVINCE me it is not OP.
StreamOfTheSky, the three rage powers you mention are exactly the one's that illustrate my point. Rage cycle with Eater of Magic against a spell/spell-like/supernatural ability to give you 1 saving throw re-roll per round?? That's ridiculous - name any other class/feat/spell/item that gives you even close to that.
Spell Sunder makes Dispel Magic almost obsolete, and has a far higher chance of working - even if it's only for one or two rounds, that's all it takes to kill most things. Monsters that rely on their spell-like/supernatural abilities no longer pose any realistic threat.
And Strength surge? Fear not the Tarrasque with it's dreaded swallow-whole ability, for it faces the almighty rage-cycling barbarian whose CMD is effectively 20 higher than it should be - none can grapple him!
And of course, any rage-cycle-r worth their salt is human with the favoured class bonus to superstition, so that not only does he have a + ridiculous to ALL saving throws against 3/4 of the abilities in the game, he can always stop raging to be hasted, healed and enlarged without making a saving throw.
Need I say more?
Do you realize the kind of buffs casters can have active for an adventuring day?
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Really? THE ONE NICE THING MARTIALS GET and people complain??? Do people REALLY hate martials that much...LOL actually I prefer martial classes myself to the cowardly mage types, but rage cycling is NOT the only nice thing available and I have yet read anyone post anything to CONVINCE me it is not OP.
StreamOfTheSky, the three rage powers you mention are exactly the one's that illustrate my point. Rage cycle with Eater of Magic against a spell/spell-like/supernatural ability to give you 1 saving throw re-roll per round?? That's ridiculous - name any other class/feat/spell/item that gives you even close to that.
Spell Sunder makes Dispel Magic almost obsolete, and has a far higher chance of working - even if it's only for one or two rounds, that's all it takes to kill most things. Monsters that rely on their spell-like/supernatural abilities no longer pose any realistic threat.
And Strength surge? Fear not the Tarrasque with it's dreaded swallow-whole ability, for it faces the almighty rage-cycling barbarian whose CMD is effectively 20 higher than it should be - none can grapple him!
And of course, any rage-cycle-r worth their salt is human with the favoured class bonus to superstition, so that not only does he have a + ridiculous to ALL saving throws against 3/4 of the abilities in the game, he can always stop raging to be hasted, healed and enlarged without making a saving throw.
Need I say more?
Because no one can convince a person that is dead set on their opinion...
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Yeah, Rage Cycling about level 7 or so seems pretty fair, it's when they can start using it for fun things (8 if they're not taking Extra Rage Power at 7 to pick up something super useful)
Barbarian is THE standard of non magical classes, it's the baseline at which all others should be judged when you're lacking the ability to alter the word with some finger wiggling. Cutting down the Barbarian at the knees is really just hurting the concept of non magics at all. If your Fighter is jealous of your Barbarian for being able to CLEAVE MAGIC IN HALF, maybe the Fighter should get abilities that aren't just "bonk harder."
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Yeah, Rage Cycling about level 7 or so seems pretty fair, it's when they can start using it for fun things (8 if they're not taking Extra Rage Power at 7 to pick up something super useful)
Barbarian is THE standard of non magical classes, it's the baseline at which all others should be judged when you're lacking the ability to alter the word with some finger wiggling. Cutting down the Barbarian at the knees is really just hurting the concept of non magics at all. If your Fighter is jealous of your Barbarian for being able to CLEAVE MAGIC IN HALF, maybe the Fighter should get abilities that aren't just "bonk harder."
I can't believe the guy who gets so mad he can grow wings is the standard for non-magical classes.
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I can't believe the guy who gets so mad he can grow wings is the standard for non-magical classes.
I'd much rather have that than "the guy who does the same thing at level 20 that he did at level 1 but with more swings/arrows" be the standard for non magical characters.
Yeah, Rage Cycling about level 7 or so seems pretty fair, it's when they can start using it for fun things (8 if they're not taking Extra Rage Power at 7 to pick up something super useful)
Perhaps there is a level when rage cycling should begin? Gaining additional uses of an ability as you advance in level is not unheard of.
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Rage cycling is as cheap as 15k gp (or 7.5k go if you know a crafter).
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot belt; Price 15,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
When fastened about the waist, this stout length of rope grants a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution along with prodigious stamina. Treat the enhancement bonus to Constitution as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
Any effect which would cause the wearer to become fatigued deals an additional 1d6 points of nonlethal damage instead. Any effect that would cause exhaustion likewise causes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and leaves the wearer fatigued instead of exhausted.
Given the low cost and ease of availability, I'd say that it's not at all overpowered.
What is rage cycling?
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What is rage cycling?
Rage cycling is when you find a way to negate the fatigue which stops you from normally entering rage, thus allowing you to Rage, use a 1/Rage power, unrage, and then re-rage to again allow the use of that power, making it less 1/rage and more 1/round.
And I'd be fine with a gradually increasing amount of rage cycling being connected to the class, since right now you need to go outside the system to get the tools to Rage Cycle (Oracle Dip, Cords of Rage Cycling, That one Ioun Stone as well as possibly the rage power that stops you from being sickened), so having it internalized wouldn't be terrible at all.
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Rage cycling isn't overpowered, but it's clunky. These powers should be once per round while raging, rather than once per rage. After all, rage is tracked as rounds per day rather than rages per day.
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All of this is why I wish we'd gone with rage point costs, instead. It felt too new at the time it was introduced, but would have been much cleaner.
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Really? THE ONE NICE THING MARTIALS GET and people complain??? Do people REALLY hate martials that much...LOL actually I prefer martial classes myself to the cowardly mage types, but rage cycling is NOT the only nice thing available and I have yet read anyone post anything to CONVINCE me it is not OP.
You have said nothing that proves rage cycling is a problem. So far all I hear is that you don't like it. What exactly is the problem?
I don't like rage-cycling, it seems an unintentional game mechanic. I'd prefer more uses of 1/rage powers, maybe even a bunch of uses. But the mechanic is awkward.
I don't like rage-cycling, it seems an unintentional game mechanic. I'd prefer more uses of 1/rage powers, maybe even a bunch of uses. But the mechanic is awkward.Why do all barbarians get rage cycling at level 17
This was an ability leftover from 3.x, and carried into Pathfinder because of backwards compatibility. This leftover and PF's new round-by-round mechanic, plus the rage power introduction had an interesting side effect when combined.
Whether it's intentional or not is up to debate, and can be quite muddy.
I'm on neither side of it. I'd have preferred points because it would have been cleaner, not only from an intentions and rules standpoint, but also in terms of the "waiting until 17th level to get something awesome".
The points would have scaled more nicely, over the course of the barbarian's career, instead of a spike at 17.
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I really don't understand why people get up in arms when you manage to eke out some advantage by using two or three feats or class abilities on a martial, when a wizard, cleric, or druid (or derivatives thereof) can just plain outclass it with any number of spells.
Oh no, that fighter/monk just used a feat chain to ignore one attack! NERFFFFFF!!!!!!!!
The wizard cast a spell that gives them 66% or more miss chance, at level 3. That's fine.
The wizard just incapacitated the entire enemy encounter for 7 rounds at level 1. That's fine.
The barbarian just stopped a spell from functioning for a few rounds! NERFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!
The wizard just permanently destroyed your magic item, or enchantment, or whatever. That's fine.
The double standards are just ridiculous, and how ludicrous the imbalance is just makes me want to play a different system.
Nobody here is objecting to barbarians being able to spell sunder and so forth; just questioning whether a GM should allow them to use a loophole to do it every round when that's not RAI.
I'd probably invent a house rule that these powers cost X rounds of rage every time you use them.
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Nobody here is objecting to barbarians being able to spell sunder and so forth; just questioning whether a GM should allow them to use a loophole to do it every round when that's not RAI.
I'd probably invent a house rule that these powers cost X rounds of rage every time you use them.
Pretty sure if you look up Cords of Stubborn Resolve, you'll see that they were quite literally intended as Cords of Rage Cycle. RAI is in the eye of the copyrighted WOTC monster.
Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Huh. Learned something new. I always assumed DR was vs everything. Personally, I think it should be, but RAW is pretty clear. DR is only applied to "attacks".
Wow, that's a super-lame find. I wish you hadn't stumbled onto that so I could have kept living in ignorance. lol
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Nobody here is objecting to barbarians being able to spell sunder and so forth; just questioning whether a GM should allow them to use a loophole to do it every round when that's not RAI.
I'd probably invent a house rule that these powers cost X rounds of rage every time you use them.
It does work by RAI. You not liking it does not make it RAI. Even if it was an unintended consequence it would still be RAI just means the RAW matches the intent, which it does. Being able to combine it with something from 4 other books for a greater affect does not make it NOT RAI. It might however mean a restriction is needed, but in this case I am not seeing the problem.
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I'd like to point out that while I have no problem with a mechanic to increase the use of the once per rage powers, I find the concept of rage cycling ludicrous. It completely destroys my suspension of disbelief and I might as well play WoW.
If rage cycling destroys your suspension of disbelief then I suspect you might want to refrain from playing in groups with higher performance martial characters. We do what we must to make them at least able to keep sight of the casters. Martials will never be as effective, but it's at least possible to stay in the same ball game now. ... Barely.
I'd like to point out that while I have no problem with a mechanic to increase the use of the once per rage powers, I find the concept of rage cycling ludicrous. It completely destroys my suspension of disbelief and I might as well play WoW.
Then change the flavor of how you are making it work.
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I disagree with the idea that we know what the RAI is on Rage Cycling. We are not Paizo Devs and I am not aware of any comments they have made that indicate Rage Cycling at low levels is intended.
While yes, there are items out there to prevent Fatigue that does not mean they were intentionally geared for Rage Cycling. There are other sources of Fatigue in the game.
Personally, I believe Rage Cycling is not intended and potentially abusive but I have no data to back this up. It really depends on your game and the power levels of that game.
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It's been in known for almost five years, although back than we didn't have as many methods to use it before 17th level:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jvig?Did-I-break-the-barbarian
It's been in known for almost five years, although back than we didn't have as many methods to use it before 17th level:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jvig?Did-I-break-the-barbarian
While there might not be an explicit dev statement that rage-cycling is someone Barbarians are supposed to be able to do, the fact that it's been around since the start of Pathfinder and the devs not only haven't tried to stop it, but keep adding new ways to pull it off does rather imply that they don't see it as an issue.
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Chengar Qordath, an alternative implication, and one that they have actually stated from time to time, is that they prefer to leave such decisions up to the GM.
Heck, it's time of existence may be one reason they are choosing not to deal with it. Look what happened with Crane Wing and that was out for a couple years.
Just because an option exists that does not mean a GM is forced to allow it. Frankly, there are many ways to abuse the system and Paizo does very little to close most options that some people consider abusive.
In any case, this option is firmly in the 'depends on the game' territory.
I have to say, rage cycling is a good example of my basic problem with D&D 3.x/PF game design/philosophy.
Here's a limitation on your abilities: You can only use this ability once per rage.
Then here's a trick you can use at high levels to get around this limitation, but we won't actually spell out that it removes the limitation and it makes you do silly things like drop in and out of Rage every round.
And then we'll add items and maybe some racial features or whatever that let you do the same at lower levels. Again without actually putting anything in the rules explicitly about bypassing that limitation.If you actually want Barbarians to be able to use their abilities more than once per rage, just change the rules to let them be able to do so. Maybe on a per level basis or something.
The whole "You can do that if you're clever enough to see the rules loopholes (whether they're intentional or not), or if you copied it from someone else" thing just doesn't work for me.
This isn't a "Rage cycling is overpowered" argument. Or a "Barbarians need rage cycling to compete" argument. It's "If you want characters to be able to do something, just give them the ability, don't make them hack around the rules" argument.
edit: The is basically a game of exceptions. You can't do X ,until you find spell/feat/item/class ability, that says otherwise.