Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with most of the art. There are twelve female Iconics. Of those, I'd say five are depicted conservatively enough - that is, I have no doubt at first glance that they are about their business. Jirelle, Reiko, Seelah, Kyra, and Merisiel are depicted as adventurers and individuals who are expecting violence, first and foremost.
I had a question mark about Merisiel because she does show off some cleavage, but at the end of the day it's no more than you might see in any American shopping mall, and beyond that she's dressed about like you'd expect a Rogue to. Lirianne didn't make my cut for the simple reason that Amiri didn't: it seems too convenient that her torso is more or less unarmored compared to her limbs.
I don't pretend to speak for anyone else. I'm a straight male. With that in mind, while I can't say I'm bothered by the female Iconics, I also don't really care whether they are depicted as "cheesecake" or not. Part of what I like about Wayne Reynolds' artwork is the detail and the story it tells about the character - the items, the souvenirs, etc. Lirianne could have worn a vest as "proper" as Jirelle's, or she could have had cleavage as modest as Merisiel's - it wouldn't have mattered to me. Ultimately, it comes down to the context of the character and their concept.
Ultimately - taking in the sum of the Iconic artwork - I think there's less cause to complain about the female Iconics than there is about only Seltyiel and Sajan being given the "Seoni Treatment".
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Someone gave my daughter a "Bratz" doll. The thing was dressed like a hooker. The suggested age on the package was 6 and up.
Just saying'; This is not an RPG thing. Red Sonja's metal bikini may seem silly but it always fit her mood. She also killed anyone who disrespected her.
She wears more than Conan.
I'd rather my daughter had gotten a Red Sonja action figure than a Bratz (hooker) Doll.
I believe that the initial intention was to raise the issue that costuming in Golarion seems to have shifted from the initial releases to have more, I guess, "codified" elements, and that several of the Iconics have costuming that doesn't fit into the established elements of the world anymore.
Exactly. Yes, Seoni is supposed to be Fanservicy. But she is also supposed to be Varisian.
So, if everyone from Cheliax wears, say, big feathered boas, then an Iconic supposedly from Cheliax without a feathered boa isn't correctly attired and may need a redesign.
Yes. It is an important part of "World Building."
It's obviously evolved from that into a discussion of appropriate attire and provocative imagery, ...
And that is a different thread.
This argument does, unfortunately, fall apart when one notices that not everyone dresses the same in our societies, especially when traveling abroad, something adventurers often do.
This was less true in the era(s) covered by Golarion's regions.
If a normal member of a society wears certain garb, then an adventurer from that society . . . is not a normal member of that society! If they were normal, they'd be farmers, craftsmen, merchants, fishermen, etc., not adventurers.
Quite frankly, the norm of the society from which they hail would no more dictate their garb as it would their profession (adventurer).
Well, I think it's a bit more complicated that that. Every society has own ideas on what constitutes traveler's attire which is what most adventurers wear if they're not wearing armor which is also different by region.
For example, someone from a hot desert country would wear something light and loose but enough to cover their bodies to prevent sunburn. A person from a cold tundra would wear something heavy with lots of furs, wool, and other thicker components. A more temperate climate would allow for different outfits based on the season.
Magic, of course, throws this all out the window thanks to the endure elements spell. Seoni, for example, can run around Qadira all days in that skimpy outfit and her pale skin without even getting a mild sunburn because of magic.
Like it or not, the culture you grow up in does have some influence on how you dress. Notice the guides and articles all say things like "tend to" or "for the most part." Feiya doesn't dress like an Irrisen despite growing up there or like a Minkai despite it being her race because of the unique way she grew up (raised by hags for those curious.)
Seoni did grow up with her people so her ideas about what is appropriate/beautiful/normal was influenced by them. Just because she decided to travel doesn't mean that this influence is gone forever or that she hates it.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing all the iconics in different outfits otherwise it feels like a cartoon where everyone wears the same thing every day for the rest of their lives.
And it has already been established by Paizo employees as to why Seoni doesn't dress like a normal Varisian: She is proud of her tattoos and wants to show them off. That is why she doesn't look like the typical gypsy that is normal for Varisians.
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Someone gave my daughter a "Bratz" doll. The thing was dressed like a hooker. The suggested age on the package was 6 and up.
Just saying'; This is not an RPG thing.
Other industries' objectification of women doesn't excuse games'.
So, some can voice their opinions but others not?
It´s really difficult to see a clear line here.
In my eyes, some things demanded (and seemingly supported) go a bit too far. What use is it to exchange one opressive system through another one, where just the opressed variables are exchanged?
Same as in exchange one bad person in power through another bad person in power of different makeshift. Problems will still be there, only directed in different directions now.
One can´t just take away a lot from one faction, assuming that the members of that faction have the most privilege and are powerful and happy, and instead give it to other factions which are assumed to be victims. In reality, all of those factions are heavily tied together and things are spread a little bit different. Most of those theories are heavily flawed, because they are one-sided and make a lot of assumptions about power distribution with a clear agenda to change that power distribution. Turns out that power is distributed differently though.
Voicing your opinions and thoughts is what messageboards are about—but we do care about how those opinions are expressed, and being insulting to religious and political groups is not the way to do it.
Also, let's steer this topic back on-topic, and recognize the fact that sometimes it's best to agree to disagree.
Voicing your opinions and thoughts is what messageboards are about—but we do care about how those opinions are expressed, and being insulting to religious and political groups is not the way to do it.
Also, let's steer this topic back on-topic, and recognize the fact that sometimes it's best to agree to disagree.
I can agree to that and recognize this.
If i was insulting anyone, i beg pardon.Yet, i also ask that some people rethink their stances and crusades they drive. It´s one thing to ask for equal rights and treatment, but another to strife for dominance and trying to cut down things for others.
Someone IN a cold tundra would wear cold-weather outfits. Someone FROM a cold tundra wouldn't wear them in warmer climates. In fact, they would more likely wear clothing appropriate to places even hotter than where they are because they are not used to the heat. It would be silly, and outright dangerous, for the tundra-dweller to wear cold weather outfits in hot climates.
That can happen or they could wear more inappropriate clothing than the locals. For example, when the weather turns from cold to warm, I almost always see at least one person who has jeans and a light jacket on despite the fact that it is 75 degrees Fahrenheit or ~24 degrees Celsius. If it were the end of summer, they be in shorts, flip-flops, and tank tops. People are so used to the cold that they get messed when they go to warm temperature even if they are in the same place.
Think of it this way: an adventurer has to start somewhere. Generally it would be where they grew up. They dress appropriately for that place. Let's say it's Qadira. They decided to march up to Lastwall to join the crusaders. How would they know what the temperature is like up there really? They could ask but even then they may not be fully prepared. They dress then according to what outfits they already own. They wouldn't have an outfit suited to the local custom. They have what they may think is appropriate based on their limited knowledge.
An Ulfen from the Land of the Linnorm Kings might understand that Orision is hot and they shouldn't pack the heavy furs but what they think is appropriate warm weather. I doubt they understand how freaking hot it can get around the equator (assuming it works like Earth's equator and that Orision is anything like Egypt.) Their "light" outfits would be out-of-place and probably less effectual than the locals'.
Basically what I'm saying is that they're would be an adjustment period. They may, as you said, wear clothes even more suited to the climate than the locals because they are not used to it for a while until they really adjust to things. The difference with adventurers is that they are rarely in a place long enough to properly adjust.
I do not write this to necessarily disagree with your posts. I suppose what I mean to say is that the first pictures of the iconics could be how they dressed when they started out or what they feel represents them best. I would like other outfits to see how would dress in other occasions. I don't even ask this in order to see art of what the iconics would do in a hotter climate. Kyra's response to Irrisen would be interesting to me especially as a contrast to Feiya who is from there.
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I'm originally from California, from a place where the weather might only touch freezing in the middle of the night, and it never snowed. Then, I moved to Pennsylvania for school.
My first winter, I was vastly unprepared, because you couldn't even find appropriate winter wear where I was from. And then, come March, I moved back to my T-shirts, because that's what you wore then. Never mind the fact that it was still below freezing--that just wouldn't happen. I mean, people wouldn't be so ridiculous to live somewhere where it stays that cold for that long, right?
Thankfully I had a friend from Germany who knew better and set me straight. She started buying me sweaters, took me shopping for appropriate cold weather wear, all that.
But certainly, someone from a different climate will most definitely walk around in wear inappropriate for the climate, and wonder why everything is too hot/cold/wet/dry.
(Similarly, she needed me to rescue her come summer, because people wouldn't be so ridiculous to live somewhere where it gets that hot, right?)
Sexualized women has become the expectation. Clothing ads, toys, movie characters, TV characters, etc. are all getting more and more sexualized, and it is becoming more and more acceptable.
Children (boys and girls) are taught from an early age that girls are supposed to be pretty, and that they have value based on other people's perceptions of them.
However, there is nothing wrong with a person who is comfortable with their sexuality. The problem is that that should be doing it for themself, not because they have been taught since childhood to do it for others. Judging other people by your own standard of appropriate sexuality is wrong in both directions, whether you are telling someone to cover up, or whether you are telling someone to expose more.
For this reason, I think the approach that Paizo has towards all their characters is pretty great. Most worry about practicality, but there are some who have other priorities. Jessica's analysis of the CRB pictures is a pretty objective assessment, and while Seoni might be "too sexualized" for some, and while the rest might not be sexualized enough for others, the fact that there is such diversity is the important part.
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Other industries' objectification of women doesn't excuse games'.Someone gave my daughter a "Bratz" doll. The thing was dressed like a hooker. The suggested age on the package was 6 and up.
Just saying'; This is not an RPG thing.
See this is something I just don't understand at all.
Is there some dark, secretive world of boys and grown men that collect Bratz dolls?
My impression was that this is marketed to small girls, and that is who winds up with the things.
Girls are sold princess culture and similar forms of entertainment, which teaches them that being pretty is the most valuable thing they can do. It's pretty innocent-looking when you're 4 or 5, but the older you get, the more our culture tells you that pretty = sexy. And that starts really young.
No self respecting 7 year old boy would touch one for fear of cooties that Lysol couldn't take off.
That's not a problem with it being sexy, though -- it's a problem with it being "girly." And why is it so terrible to like girly things if you're a boy? Because our culture tells us that masculine = more valuable than feminine. Tomboys (girls that are boyish) are cool, sissy boys (boys that are girlish) are not cool.
I'd like you to explain to me why little girls are interested in Bratz dolls at all. Instead of demurely dressed ones.
I just did.
Now here is a statement for you to disagree with, or say I'm wrong. But if you do, explain why you think it is wrong.
If you reduce the sex appeal of your art, of the female characters depicted, you will sell less to women.
Why on earth, if you're asserting something you know people will disagree with, is it their responsibility to prove you wrong? You want to convince people of anything, it's your responsibility to prove there's data to support the idea. Anyone can just throw out crazy ideas -- don't expect people to waste time taking them seriously unless you've got a strong argument. Show me some data.
And why is it so terrible to like girly things if you're a boy? Because our culture tells us that masculine = more valuable than feminine.wut
I love ballet.
Feel that sudden little twinge in your opinion of me? That's what Jessica is talking about.
And why is it so terrible to like girly things if you're a boy? Because our culture tells us that masculine = more valuable than feminine.wut
TvTropes describes the Flat What you just linked as "'What.' You've just been witness to something so bizarre, so eye-crossingly stupid (or possibly so mind-crushingly terrifying as to put you beyond the capacity for rational thought), that your brain no longer has the cognitive faculties to put together a more articulate response."
Was what Jessica Price said that dumb or horrifying to you? Sounds like a valid opinion to me. Even if you don't agree with it, there is certainly some evidence to me. The very next line she uses is one such example: "Tomboys (girls that are boyish) are cool, sissy boys (boys that are girlish) are not cool."
If you need something more specific, look at bronies. Even if you having some valid reason to not like them, most people who look down on them are doing so because they enjoy a show intended for little girls. Would society hate/mistrust a group of women who loved G.I. Joe so much? I doubt it.
Edit: Good on you, Wrong John Silver. In this case, you are Right John Silver.
Double Edit. I don't hate bronies. Just a mistype.
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What twinge? Ballet is awesome. To develop that level of grace and poise is pretty impressive. (Also, male Ballet dancers may wear awkwardly tight pants, but they typically don't wear skirts)
What's wrong with wearing skirts?
Absolutely nothin, though I wouldn't personally be comfortable doing so.What twinge? Ballet is awesome. To develop that level of grace and poise is pretty impressive. (Also, male Ballet dancers may wear awkwardly tight pants, but they typically don't wear skirts)What's wrong with wearing skirts?
(/shrekvoice)Spoken like a true non-Scotsman. A real man wears his kilt with pride! It's our way of saying "if I'm not a wee bit afraid to wear this then I'm sure as hell not afraid of you little man."
. . . Undies?
Well, this thread has changed my mind - I no longer want any female Iconics to have an art update. :)
OTOH I thoroughly agree about banning Bratz dolls, or My Little Hooker dolls as a Simpsons episode once called them.
It's not "our culture" it's "boy culture". We are genetically wired for competition. Liking "girl things" makes you a lesser compeditor. Tomboys are cool because they're girls who are closer to understanding us. They are also girls a guy can closer identify with.
No, it doesn't. Not at all. We're just taught to think that it does.
So I like ballet and the occasional shojo anime and antiquing and Downton Abbey and tea parties.
I dare you to tell me that I'd be a fiercer competitor if I just stopped liking that stuff.
Yaoi is actually targeted at women (usually focusing on Pretty Boys and such), there's an entirely different genre targeted at males.
Man on man for women is yaoi. Man on man for men is bara. Yaoi tends to be focus on pretty males as Kyrt said. Bara tends to have more realistic to muscular males involved
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Couldn't read the entire thread, but if we're taking votes, I cast my lot in the 'more cleavage' pile.
;-)
Couldn't read the entire thread, but if we're taking votes, I cast my lot in the 'more cleavage' pile.
;-)
So do I.
However, this thread has become a proxy for the "Hypersexualization" thread. It should be closed for the same reason.
And why is it so terrible to like girly things if you're a boy? Because our culture tells us that masculine = more valuable than feminine.
Mine doesn't. Mine just tells me that they're different, and that thats okay.
I don't think anyone liking anything is inherently terrible nor do I know anyone else who does. As a boy I played with dolls and as an adult male I have a knack for women's fashion and interior design. Not very good with power tools though. Lady GaGa and Melissa Etheridge are two of my very favorite artists and even though I have an unblemished record of staunch heterosexuality, I've never been able to change the oil in my car. Go figure.
I will say that I see the 'chicken before the egg' argument too often in my opinion, the presumption that girls like feminine things because they are somehow forced to by society, and the same with boys. Gender roles and predispositions are actually a very real thing, as ingrained in the DNA of some, most I'd say, as homosexuality is in others - feminine girls and masculine boys are in fact 'born this way'.
Its like someone who is born blind claiming that people are only able to see because society forced them to. I can understand why, from the blind person's perspective they might think that (or want to think it), but that certainly doesn't make it so.
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That said, I wouldn't mind seeing all the iconics in different outfits otherwise it feels like a cartoon where everyone wears the same thing every day for the rest of their lives.
Agree wholeheartedly with this. Even Barbi had a full wardrobe. Personally I'd like to see different artists spin their take one the various iconics, including regional wear when appropriate for the terrain (Arctic Feiya, Desert Feiya, Pirate Feiya, Out-for-a-night-on-the-town Feiya...)
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I will say that I see the 'chicken before the egg' argument too often in my opinion, the presumption that girls like feminine things because they are somehow forced to by society, and the same with boys. Gender roles and predispositions are actually a very real thing, as ingrained in the DNA of some, most I'd say, as homosexuality is in others - feminine girls and masculine boys are in fact 'born this way'.
This isn't really true, though. There are certainly legitimate physiological and even psychological differences between men and women (or boys and girls) but the vast majority of things our culture says are gender based simply aren't. Pink, for example, was once considered a highly masculine color. There are cultures where men are expected to do the cooking, or raise the children, and so on and so forth, as well as societies where men showing extremes of emotion is considered normal, all of which are considered 'female roles' in our current society and considered odd for a man, even if they aren't looked down on. And all that's off the top of my head.
Our culture has very specific boxes it wants men and women in. You don't fit perfectly into those boxes, but then almost nobody does, you don't feel bad about that (which is great), but that doesn't mean the culture doesn't predispose people to following those roles to some degree. Heck, I ignore large portions of expected male roles...but that doesn't mean they aren't expected, it means I'm weird.
Are more 'masculine' girls and 'feminine' boys born that way? Probably a lot of the time, yeah, but that's not really the issue, the issue is are all the 'feminine' girls and 'masculine' boys born that way? And the answer's pretty clearly no. A lot of them were much less inclined in that direction and pushed in that direction by society.
Are more 'masculine' girls and 'feminine' boys born that way? Probably a lot of the time, yeah, but that's not really the issue, the issue is are all the 'feminine' girls and 'masculine' boys born that way? And the answer's pretty clearly no. A lot of them were much less inclined in that direction and pushed in that direction by society.
Could you point me to statistics on that? It'll help clear up my own confusion on the real-life PC issue vs. the gamer PC issue.
We are different, as much as it pains a lot of people to accept it. From the first few weeks of our lives, we have a distinct personality, which is inherited to a very large part (twin studies put personality traits at about 80% due to inheritance, not environment). This accounts for facial expressions all the way to political views, from interests to risk of criminality. To clarify, all the above are expressions of how the person in question feels about various things, like what their reward wiring gets triggered by, what feelings are important and difficult to handle, and how good they are at long-term planning. Sure, there is room to develop as a person as well, but that happens largely within the boundaries of who you were born as. Psychology today doesn't know any method that actually changes someone's personality - unless you are talking about the most terrible things a person can go through, like torture, war, and the like. Homosexuality is a genetic trait, as is gender identification. People have tried to work for ages on "praying away the gay" - with no results to show for it. Recently, one of the higher profile groups doing this made an official apology for their work and quit.
And still, it is so difficult for so many to accept that culture is not 100%.
We are a competitive species. We want the things that come with being on top of things, admired, successful. So we compare ourselves to others and try to do better than them. The exact forms of this differ through cultures, admittedly, but more importantly: Every culture that I am aware of is clearly split down the middle according to sex. One for men, and one for women, with different things that make you successful in each. Challenging that is difficult whichever way you do so. Women getting top management jobs. Men getting custody of their children.
One of the most important interests for everyone, and one of the most vital issues for being seen as successful is looking good. It is an area where things have changed over the years, but overall, being looked at and looking good have been Good Things (tm) since day one of humanity. Even today, you get a far better salary than people that don't look as good as you. You have more choices in partner. You get more influence. Of course we like looking good, whatever that means.
So, yes... We are born that way. Whatever "that way" means to us. And then a lot of people try to claim that we aren't - unless "that way" means homosexual, that is getting accepted now. And don't try to claim that puberty doesn't change people - it does, firmly and irrevocably. For most of us, it means we find ourselves trying to deal with the idea of getting a partner, when we did not before. That isn't society changing our interests, it's biology doing it.
While that's interesting, I do challenge you to find data about any sizable groups to match it. It is also quite possible that you never knew the whole story, no?