I don't know if others have noticed, but since the Skull & Shackles adventure path, Paizo has had a shift in art direction to more egalitarian and realistic clothing. One of the results of this is that the fanservice-y costumes of Amri,Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya are becoming increasingly "out of step" with the fashions of the world setting.
My question is, do these characters need an art update to dress them more "realistically" for the Golarion setting?
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Yes, absolutely. It's 2014. Why is Paizo clinging to an art style that makes female characters into sexual objects and sends the message that rpgs are only for straight men?
Yes, absolutely. It's 2014. Why is Paizo clinging to an art style that makes female characters into sexual objects and sends the message that rpgs are only for straight men?
I think you missed the part where I said "Regardless, of your opinions on 'fanservice'." To amplify my point, I actually like (male oriented) fanservice in my gaming.
But they no longer fit into the art style that Paizo is using for Golarion (and all their products in general). I am talking about artistic consistency, not the rightness or wrongness of fanservice.
Yes, absolutely. It's 2014. Why is Paizo clinging to an art style that makes female characters into sexual objects and sends the message that rpgs are only for straight men?I think you missed the part where I said "Regardless, of your opinions on 'fanservice'."
My point was that they no longer fit into the art style that Paizo is using for Golarion (and all their products in general). I am talking about artistic consistency.
I'm working from the assumption that the move away from cheesecake art is deliberate. My assumption is that Paizo, to their credit, recognizes that it's embarrassing to their company. If the style for Golarion has changed, then the style for the iconics should change for the same reason.
It'll be interesting to see how the iconics for the ACG look. Will they continue the trend of the previous iconics or will they be less cheesecakey?
Edit: as a counterpoint, there's still some cheesecake in recent Pathfinder books. For example, the art for the swam maiden in Bestiary 4 is just... egregious.
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What's wrong with Amiri? She's a barbarian. A male barbarian would probably have less clothes on.
I'm working from the assumption that the move away from cheesecake art is deliberate.
This is almost certainly true.
If the style for Golarion has changed, then the style for the iconics should change for the same reason.
This is the question I was asking. We are likely reaching the same conclusion from different directions. While I like cheesecake, these characters no longer fit into the setting's art.
It'll be interesting to see how the iconics for the ACG look. Will they continue the trend of the previous iconics or will they be less cheesecakey?
This is true, and will solidify the company's direction one way or the other.
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And for what it's worth, there are more female iconics that are modestly dressed (merisiel, kyra, lini, seelah) than there are ones that are either immodestly dressed or...possibly immodestly dressed. The title of this thread implies that all female iconics are dressed scantly, when the majority aren't.
And for what it's worth, there are more female iconics that are modestly dressed (merisiel, kyra, lini, seelah) than there are ones that are either immodestly dressed or...possibly immodestly dressed. The title of this thread implies that all female iconics are dressed scantly, when the majority aren't.
True. However, you might also note that the ones I listed are more visible.
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I'm going to try to stay on topic here and not drag this down into an argument about fanservice as marketing.
Most people have more than one set of clothing. Giving any of the iconics some new duds that are still within their personal style is a great idea.
Currently we only ever get to see them change gear in pictures representing them as higher level. Their look is still fundamentally the same, they just have glowing weapons and things with runes all over it.
I can't think of any reason why what is done with their equipment couldn't be done with their wardrobe.
As someone who isn't a straight male... No, they don't need an update any more than Sajan or Mythic Valeros.
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I don't see a problem with updating iconics, although the word "iconic" does kind of imply that you're going to have a problem with changing the perception of a character. They'll always have their, well, "iconic" look. It's kind of like different costumes for super heroes. No matter how many times they try to redesign Spider-Man's look, they *always* come back to the original over and over again, because it's iconic.
Having said that, I certainly don't mind if they'll put Seoni in some different clothes now and then. I do think they should follow an established visual style for each character though -- real people can wear radically different clothes and makeup in different situations, so much so that they can be unrecognizable between day job and evening fun. But I think when we're talking about iconic characters, it strengthens the brand if there's a consistent look, a visual theme, for each character that recurs. Like, I don't think there's a problem with putting Seoni in red pants and hood with gold trim, but putting her in all black with goth makeup might not be the way to go.
I also note that scantily-clad characters should never be eliminated *entirely*. Saying "you have to look like this (covered from head to toe)" isn't much better than "you have to look like this (a pole dancer)". People like to dress in a lot of different ways and while I won't dispute the fact that scantily-clad women are overrepresented currently, I wouldn't want to see them significantly underrepresented either.
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Oh Mythic Seltyiel....
*cough*
I'd also rather we got more situational clothing for them, along the lines of Arctic Action Kyra in People of the North. As well as continuing to aim for a reasonable range between sensible and fanservice, which I really believe Paizo has been hitting pretty well. They don't go exploitative(or to Exalted's Panty Sorceress levels of what) nor do they go sex-negative. Of course, everyone has different limits on what is this and what is that.
edit-just no high-heels in combat situations plz, I mean damn
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I don't mind things the way they are. This cover link of the Skin saw Murders caught my eye made me pause as i was walking down the RPG shelves of my gaming store. Then I picked it up and began flipping through it. I liked what I saw, and I picked up Burnt Offerings next to it. Then I bought both issues. The rest is history. I suppose you could say Seoni sold the rise of the rune lords adventure path to me.
While the image of Seoni initially caught my eye, I liked the rest of the artwork. I liked the stories too.
So I don't mind that Amri, Seoni, etc have revealing outfits. If Paizo wants to change their outfits so they are less revealing, that is fine with me too.
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I think human bodies are pleasant to the eye but the art has to make some sense, I am not bothered by bare chested men or scantily clad women. A seductive sorceress is fine a fighter in chain mail bikini is not, unless maybe it is a gladiator slave pit fight.
I do not think there is a problem with depicting a character's sexuality, only when it makes the characters appear shallow and non-sensical do I have an issue.
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More bewbs. Even on the dudes. I want to see Valeros with a rocking pair of armor kittens under that breastplate. Lem needs to be in a bodice. Heck, put those furry little feet of his in bodices.
My question is, do these characters need an art update to dress them more "realistically" for the Golarion setting?
Any change would need to be incredibly gradual, or it annuls the point of iconics. Honestly, it would actually bug me a bit if Seoni's (or Kyra's, or Ezren's) clothing changed color, let alone style too much.
Overall, I don't think it's necessary.
situationnaly (is that a word?)
Situationally, yes.
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chain mail bikini/ breast plate armors have their place in fantasy, as both harem guards and in pit fighting arenas.... and even yes in a battlefield where that was the quickest thing at hand......
end of the day, its the character's creator point of view.
Why? I mean, the only reason a chain mail bikini exists is that the censors wouldn't let you show the character's nipples.
Chain mail bikini provides no protection and no support, and the only point of the bikini in general is to stay within the narrow boundaries of modern American decency laws. Those should have no place in a fantasy world, logically.
Your harem should be naked. Your fighters should be armored.
No one should ever wear a chain mail bikini, regardless of gender. Melt them down, already.
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wait so which iconics now am I bad for liking
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Remember, Seoni is not written as a crazed nympho - she seems to be written as an almost asexual character. However, I would say that her mythic outfit is way cooler looking than her base costume.
I think that they have a decent balance of cheesecake/beefcake and practicality. The only time I get furious is when every female character is drawn for the male gaze, such as the cover for Elder Scrolls I: Arena.
A little bit here and there is not a problem because some people are proud of their bodies and should be, and they shouldn't be shamed for wanting to display it.
To me, slutshaming is just as bad as prudeshaming.
No one should ever wear a chain mail bikini, regardless of gender. Melt them down, already.
Umm ... (western) Belly Dancers sometimes do wear the metal brassier part of the chainmail bikini as part of their costume. So there is a proper use for them.
But ... back to the original topic. Characters "belong" in their world setting (unless that strangeness is the point).
Pathfinder/Golarion setting art has changed - so should the characters most representing that art also change?
Remember, Seoni is not written as a crazed nympho - she seems to be written as an almost asexual character. However, I would say that her mythic outfit is way cooler looking than her base costume.
But, you point out another issue. Seoni's costume is not really appropriate to her disciplined and pragmatic (LN) character. Indeed, going all the way back to Pathfinder AP #7 (Edge of Anarchy), it is not even a reasonable Varisian dance dress.
Doesn't Seoni need to have her tattoos visible as part of her magic? I thought I read about that somewhere.
Then again, I never play with the iconics in my campaigns so I know very little about them.
Another point is that since Paizo has multiple artists working on different pieces, the clothing is what is more recognizable. Just look at the different facial looks that we have had for Seoni over the years (including the comics). Without the similarity of the clothing, it might be hard to tell as quickly which 'iconic' is which.
I also agree that the clothing should cover a range of styles for travelling all over the Inner Sea area, but they should keep their more iconic color schemes as others have stated.
Creative Director
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Doesn't Seoni need to have her tattoos visible as part of her magic? I thought I read about that somewhere.
Then again, I never play with the iconics in my campaigns so I know very little about them.
They don't need to be visible, but she's quite proud of them and wants to show them off and wants the world to know she's a sorcerer.
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Creative Director
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I for one would like more "realistic" art pieces of Amiri, also more art of her not facing away to fight some monster or other
Fun Art-time Note!
When you see a character facing away from a monster, that's almost ALWAYS a choice made by the art director or the artist, because it's naturally more compelling to look at a person's face or to see them facing you.
When you do a fight, unless you do it side-by-side in profile, the choice to have one of the two facing away so that both are facing the viewer is often one made to make the art more dynamic.
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Clothing aside where is the elderly or middle-aged woman iconic?
All of the female iconics and as far as I can tell all the female NPCs (except for Baba Yaga the hag-crone) seem to be stereotypically young and beautiful.
I hate to insert reality into a fantasy topic (I'm not being sarcastic, I really do generally believe that fantasy and reality don't mix)but ...
I think adventuring in general would attrack young fit people, at least if they want to survive. There would of necessity be few elderly or unfit adventurers.
I think this is normal. When I was in my 20's I was a college football player, loved to work out, run around, challenge myself, etc. Now twenty years later you could not pay me to run, I work out only out of necessity and if I were to run into 20 year old me he would trounce me at everything.
I think the one exception to this is pure magic using classes. I would expect elderly wizards, clerics, etc. as they would simply continue to become more powerful over time.
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Artistically: Meh. Who cares.
My opinion: I think Seoni's outfit is downright gratuitous, but that really only bothers me because I run an RPG club at the middle school in my VERY conservative community. I'm dreading a parent giving me a lashing for promoting that art. Again, I don't mind it...I just don't want to get yelled at for promoting it. It's a shame. I don't think the others are a big deal. Amiri has more clothes on than Pocahontas.
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Short answer to the OP: No. No I do not believe there should be an update to the female iconic characters (or at least not the original female iconic characters), because I do not see any real intention on the part of Paizo or their artists to simply objectify women.
Were every single female iconic character (or the vast majority) drawn to present as much leg and cleavage as possible, then I would say yes. Definitely, there should be an update. However, even from the beginning of the Pathfinder Iconics, it is clear that most of the female iconic characters are dressed conservatively as opposed to those who are dressed more scantily. In the core rulebook, the only scantily clad female iconic was Seoni, and to a lesser degree, Amiri (bare midriff and thighs), while Kyra, Lini, Seelah and Merisiel are all dressed rather conservatively.
I do not find there to be any sinister or prurient motivations behind these artistic depictions.
I think that if paizo were simply to give us artwork of characters who dress to suit both the role the clothing is intended to fill and their personality, and, sadly, even though Paizo has a few admirable examples of non-sexualized females (Seelah and Kyra, chiefly), they are certainly in the minority.
We've gotten some good artwork of armored females, and in spite of how impractical it would actually be, I find I can forgive the "breastplates with breasts." Cleavage in breastplates is a whole other matter though. As pleasing as it may be for me, as a straight male, to look at, it's not practical, it's not why I get the books, and I do find it kind of insulting. Imrajka's artwork is SO close, but most artists seem to be unable to resist that smidgen of sexuality.
That's not to say that it doesn't have a place. Given her apparently forward personality AND the acrobatic nature of what she surely does on adventures, I've long thought Merisiel should actually be wearing less (I'm sure those hard leather pauldrons limit the mobility of her arms, for example). However, the worst offenses seem to show up on characters who, if we are going by background, personality, and practicality, have no business romping around in what they're drawn in. Even with her tattoo pride, Seoni shows far too much, and I can't believe it's easy to adventure in that. And then we've got Feiyi, who was regularly abused and assaulted by hags as a child. If anything, I think she would want to do go out of her way to NOT advertise herself.
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No one should ever wear a chain mail bikini, regardless of gender. Melt them down, already.Umm ... (western) Belly Dancers sometimes do wear the metal brassier part of the chainmail bikini as part of their costume. So there is a proper use for them.
No, there's not. I spent 12 years as a professional belly dancer, and I can say without equivocation that you don't "wear a chain mail bikini": you "attach it over your bra as a form of decoration" (and often have to take the thing apart to get it to lay flat). That is a huge distinction, even on small breasts. :-)
The chain mail bikini by itself does provide the support you need as a dancer. It slides when you sweat, and it does not stay in place during a chest roll or upper body undulation. And OMG, you do not want to see what happens with an Egyptian rib cage shimmy!
It's not useful as armor. It's not useful as clothing. It's not even all that flattering on women who aren't fortunate enough to have anti-gravity boobs. It doesn't deserve the sacred "well, of course, you can't get rid of it" place it occupies in the fantasy imagination.
Metal plate bikini tops, barbarian fur bikinis, leather bikinis, any form of bodice: all of these are far more deserving of the "go to female fantasy look" than the chain mail bikini.
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I think that they have a decent balance of cheesecake/beefcake and practicality. The only time I get furious is when every female character is drawn for the male gaze, such as the cover for Elder Scrolls I: Arena.
I agree: Pathfinder does a really good job, not just on the artwork but on the overall issues of gender stereotyping and sexism.
I think that's why the few really bad examples stand out so much. Natalia in Rise of the Runelords is probably the worst, for me. (Look! A "breastplate" that only covers her breasts! Ha! I get it! But WTF is up with the spandex-looking stuff she's wearing with it?)
Some of the pawn sets are pretty annoying: most of the males are drawn in "action" poses or just "normal standing around" poses, while most of the females are drawn in pin-up style body cants. It becomes really obvious when you have pawns of the same race and class with only the gender different. And the problem isn't their clothing: it's the attitude.
But at least I haven't seen any of them in those physically impossible positions that somehow manage to show off both their breasts and their butts at the same time...
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I like cheesecake, and I don't see why it should not be here, unless we go for an all-realistic approach, where swords are the correct size, dagger wounds actually kill you, armor is actually funtional, wounds are handled realistically, combat is actually deadly, and magic has realist outcomes (nil effect).
In short, no prudeness in my Fantasy.
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As a Brazilian from Bahia, i cant understand how you manage to dress with so many cloth. Even Seoni, Amiri and Sanjan attire seems unconfortable and "hot". That said, Seoni choice of lack of "cover" is unusual even for our tastes
Brazilian, eh?
Your average daytime temperature is probably hotter then it gets on our worse days here.
Your nights might be about the same as our days.
Our summer nights would make you feel positively chilly.
You'd basically only have to live up here for an autumn and a winter and you'd understand perfectly why we have so many clothes all the time! :) Sweaters and warm pants exist for very good reasons!
I will also have you know that you're not alone. I go walking around in Maryland here in t-shirt and shorts, and pass by people basically wearing snowcoats, hats and mittens because they can't take a balmy 40 degree Fahrenheit day (~3 C). You southerners crack me up sometimes!
===Aelryinth
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Personally I don't care about cheesecake one way or the other...or more aptly I can see both sides on that debate. But I will say this if they make changes, they need to be subtle, for one very important reason. Branding, like them or not as they look currently these characters have a history that is linked to the pathfinder brand through advertising, product placement etc....and if you are going to make changed it is paramount they still be recognizable as who they are. So Seoni in a turtleneck and a floor length skirt is not a bright idea for business.
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What I want to know is how Seoni prevents wardrobe malfunctions? Having a boob pop out in the middle of every second combat could become annoying.
sovereign glue....just like Hollywood.
What I would like to see is a more practical appearance for the characters who portray a specific class. Realism is not necessarily a must in Fantasy, however does make the world seem more believable. Take for example LOTR and Game of Thrones. Those characters costumes were relatively practical from a naked eye view. And it takes the Heroes from looking like a person who stands among his fellow man/woman differently however NOT looking like they are gaudy over decorated fashionable Super Heroes.
I realize the aim at making "memorable" characters that become a franchise recognition. But this could be done with a touch more reality/fantasy in mind. Remember they aren't going to a GenCon...they are going to a tactical situation.
Class based designs with Region based influence and very minimal personal flare would be my template for the artists.
And maybe even bring in some actual costume/clothing designers...this is WA state we are talking about after all.
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My question is, do these characters need an art update to dress them more "realistically" for the Golarion setting?
I can't speak for all of the other iconics, but I am personally quite happy with the fashion choices I am usually depicted in. There's room for lots of different types of clothing options and I would rather see a wide spread of different looks going forward on new iconics than retconning older art.
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Every real person I've ever known to have worn a chainmail bikini has suffered. i've seen chainmail over a deerskin bikini, and that was pretty good. But chainmail bikini (even with a "nipple gambeson") = pain and suffering.
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I'd also rather we got more situational clothing for them, along the lines of Arctic Action Kyra in People of the North.
Did you see my cold weather gear, too?
/shamelessly shows off
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i just love that the attacks about this being for straight males, although predictably fast, are simply wrong. Look at Cosmo or any other womans mag. they are full of half naked women in sexual poses and half falling out of what they are wearing. Art if strong sexy women sells to women as much as the men or more. Hell you could take the covers of maxim and cosmo and switch them and very few would notice.
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I find it slightly unsettling, Feiya, that your cold weather gear appears to be made of fox fur...and that your familiar is nowhere in sight in that image
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i just love that the attacks about this being for straight males, although predictably fast, are simply wrong. Look at Cosmo or any other womans mag. they are full of half naked women in sexual poses and half falling out of what they are wearing. Art if strong sexy women sells to women as much as the men or more. Hell you could take the covers of maxim and cosmo and switch them and very few would notice.
Blame...Cosmo?
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Yes, absolutely. It's 2014. Why is Paizo clinging to an art style that makes female characters into sexual objects and sends the message that rpgs are only for straight men?
I know/have known several strait women, as well a gay men and women, who not only appreciate the female figure but would take issue with your hasty generalization.