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A bit of set up: I play a Chelaxian Oracle of Asmodeus as my "main" and, pretty much from the beginning, had my heart set on the Diabolist prestige class from Princes of Darkness. To that end, I gradually leveled the Oracle up to level six and, after double-checking that I'd done everything right, went ahead and took my first level in the prestige class - I have since reached level ten, with fully half of my character levels being in Diabolist.
This, of course, has now been thrown somewhat into flux with the most recent change to the PFS Additional Resources page regarding the Diabolist: specifically the fact that a character must be able to cast Lesser Planar Ally or Lesser Planar Binding using his/her own spell slots prior to taking levels in the class, which means the earliest my character can now retroactively have picked up one is level nine (as I cannot cast fourth level spells until I reach level eight as an Oracle).
Now, I have accepted this easily enough (though I have been mourning the fact that I'll no longer get Infernal Transport next time I level...) and the fact that I will now have to rebuild my character somewhat is a foregone conclusion.
My question is this: How much leeway do I have in such a rebuild? Do I need to limit myself purely to those three levels that MUST now change in order to be in compliance with the new rules, or am I allowed to tinker with some of my earlier choices as well (i.e. class feature choices, skill rank allocations, feat and spell selections, etc.)?
As a prime example, I chose the "Haunted" Oracle's Curse when I first built the character, but have since come to the conclusion that a different curse would have served my concept better - in part, due to the fact that I've expanded my library since she was first designed. Can I, through this rebuild, swap out my old curse for a new one?
Thanks in advance.
Lady Imperia Korva Alazario
Signifer of the Order of the Gate
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This is actually a hard one, because the requirement for the prestige class did not actually change, it was always required that you had to cast the spell from your own spell slots, it was just poorly worded before, and before that it was only clarified on the boards.
That said, that is not your fault so we are only left with what the guide says about rebuilds that most closely fits your situation.
If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment
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Yeah, the requirement isn't a new one, it was just never listed on AR before.
Since you took the prestige class by mistake (which is to say you weren't aware of the rule), you'll need to remove those levels and replace them with whatever you want. Levels prior to that aren't eligible for rebuild, IMO. I see where Dragnmoon is coming from with his quote, but the class wasn't actually altered, so I don't think it would apply.
Couldnt he have used Lesser Planer Binding off of a scroll prior to level 8? I dont have that book but the PFSRD reading doesnt specify that you have to cast it from your own slots. Im not sure how the actual class reads.
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Couldnt he have used Lesser Planer Binding off of a scroll prior to level 8? I dont have that book but the PFSRD reading doesnt specify that you have to cast it from your own slots. Im not sure how the actual class reads.
He could have, as the wording for the PrC doesnt state this outright. So it had been intrepreted by some that a scroll was possible to meet the PrC requirement.
For PFS it was specifically spelled-out in the AR that you needed to cast the spell yourself with your own spell slot which meant you also had to have it on your spell list.
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If I may...
The requirement that I cast Lesser Planar Ally was (until recently) spelled out only in the "Special" section of the prerequisites, wherein the book states that I must conjure a devil using Planar Ally or Planar Binding (or a similar spell) an successfully coax it into performing a service lasting for more than one day.
I felt that this requirement could have been met via use of a scroll, as per the way it is written in the book itself and the Additional Resources doc at the time, but it is something of a moot point regardless. Roleplaying requirements of this sort are waived for Society play (see Organized Play Guide pg 22). I took Lesser Planar Ally as a spell known upon hitting 8th level anyway, but not because I felt I was forced to do so.
It was only this most recent change to the AR that invalidated my choices, and the rule stating that I get a rebuild, while seemingly straightforward, is also rather nonspecific as to what I can and cannot alter. Hence my reason for asking.
If, for example, this change had utterly and irrevocably broken my ability to make the Chelaxian Devil-Binder I'd envisioned (which it hasn't, I might add; merely delayed it), am I then stuck with a character that can only ever be half of what I wanted out of it? Or can I decide that I'd like to be a male Paladin of Sarenrae now?
So the minimum levels requirements are:
- Cleric 7
- Oracle 8
- Wizard 9
- Sorcerer 10This is due to the fact that Lesser Planar Ally is a 4th level spell, and Lesser Planar Binding is a 5th level spell.
Just so.
If I may...
I would say your prestige class was altered. And you would follow the rule Dragnmoon posted.
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I guess the question for this is what happens to the class. This is a full ten level prestige class. Maybe it should be changed to a level 3 class. Honestly, something had to happen. I've seen the Imp familiar exploited horribly in local play. The imp companion is in some ways better than some players with the additional levels.
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The class didn't change. This requirement was laid out in 2012. Here is the link: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oz9s?Requirements-for-Diabolist-For-PFS-play#1 9
It was added to the AR because it had not previously been added to the AR, but the fact is, the class did not change when it was added. In this case--and likely many others, which is why I campaigned for the ruling to be changed or added to the AR--the class was taken illegally. There is no full rebuild; only the illegal levels can be changed.
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I guess the question for this is what happens to the class. This is a full ten level prestige class. Maybe it should be changed to a level 3 class. Honestly, something had to happen. I've seen the Imp familiar exploited horribly in local play. The imp companion is in some ways better than some players with the additional levels.
Nothing happens. Many PrCs are 10-level classes. You don't have to take all 10. You don't have to take any. There's no reason to change the class just because PFS doesn't make use of all of it.
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The class didn't change. This requirement was laid out in 2012. Here is the link: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oz9s?Requirements-for-Diabolist-For-PFS-play#1 9
It was added to the AR because it had not previously been added to the AR, but the fact is, the class did not change when it was added. In this case--and likely many others, which is why I campaigned for the ruling to be changed or added to the AR--the class was taken illegally. There is no full rebuild; only the illegal levels can be changed.
What if his character was created before the Oct 04, 2012 date that Michael Brock weighted in? PFS is a social game for fun, I would hate to cripple someone who did it in ignorance.
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You can advance the character to level 18 in PFS by using the sanctioned module or Sanctioned AP content. So you can complete the entire 10 level PrC as a Cleric, Oracle, or Wizard. Not sure about Sorcerer I'd have to check.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I would say that character is illegal and needs to be fixed now. Every level of Diaboist needs to be rectified and can effectively be "retrained for free," including skill points and feats.
I think this is a fair assessment, since the player in question was honestly unaware of the rules regarding the PRC (rules that have been argued by many need to be clearly displayed or changed), and they're earnest in their effort to fix things.
In my mind, it's similar to a situation where someone took 5 levels of oracle and then 5 levels of Paladin while being Chaotic Good. They physically can't have those Paladin levels and they need to be fixed. The character is illegal as it stands.
No need to penalize someone that already has to restructure their concept.
I would not allow the first 5 levels to be retrained however. They are not illegal for the character to have and do not need to be fixed. Fortunately, retrain rules exist for players now, and for some prestige, the OP could rethink his concept a bit to coincide with this rebuild.
Thoughts?
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What if his character was created before the Oct 04, 2012 date that Michael Brock weighted in? PFS is a social game for fun, I would hate to cripple someone who did it in ignorance.The class didn't change. This requirement was laid out in 2012. Here is the link: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oz9s?Requirements-for-Diabolist-For-PFS-play#1 9
It was added to the AR because it had not previously been added to the AR, but the fact is, the class did not change when it was added. In this case--and likely many others, which is why I campaigned for the ruling to be changed or added to the AR--the class was taken illegally. There is no full rebuild; only the illegal levels can be changed.
Then the exact same ruling from the previous Campaign Leader, Joshua Frost here would be in effect.
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Then the exact same ruling from the previous Campaign Leader, Joshua Frost here would be in effect.
Ehhhh ... that gets tricky. It was explicitly added to the Guide v4.something that messageboard clarifications are binding, which raises the question of whether the ones before were as well. I don't know if I'd agree that Josh Frost's word is gospel, especially because a lot of the stuff he clarified isn't relevant anymore.
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What if his character was created before the Oct 04, 2012 date that Michael Brock weighted in? PFS is a social game for fun, I would hate to cripple someone who did it in ignorance.Then I'd say sure, whatever, why not. But I don't think that's the case here.
The requirement was actually laid out in 2009, in this post. So, it has been that way for a very long time.
Edit: Ninjas abound
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I would say that character is illegal and needs to be fixed now. Every level of Diaboist needs to be rectified and can effectively be "retrained for free," including skill points and feats.
I think this is a fair assessment, since the player in question was honestly unaware of the rules regarding the PRC (rules that have been argued by many need to be clearly displayed or changed), and they're earnest in their effort to fix things.
In my mind, it's similar to a situation where someone took 5 levels of oracle and then 5 levels of Paladin while being Chaotic Good. They physically can't have those Paladin levels and they need to be fixed. The character is illegal as it stands.
No need to penalize someone that already has to restructure their concept.
I would not allow the first 5 levels to be retrained however. They are not illegal for the character to have and do not need to be fixed. Fortunately, retrain rules exist for players now, and for some prestige, the OP could rethink his concept a bit to coincide with this rebuild.
Thoughts?
I agree with this. Especially since the OP isn't whining or arguing. He realized he had a build that didn't mesh with the additional resources and he's asking politely what his options are to fix it.
No need to be overly harsh.
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What if his character was created before the Oct 04, 2012 date that Michael Brock weighted in? PFS is a social game for fun, I would hate to cripple someone who did it in ignorance.Then I'd say sure, whatever, why not. But I don't think that's the case here.The requirement was actually laid out in 2009, in this post. So, it has been that way for a very long time.
Edit: Ninjas abound
There is no requirement to have read every post ever made. Message board posts are binding if you have read them, but not otherwise.
I think that he should be allowed to rebuild the illegal levels for free and would have to retrain any other stuff
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Since the class did not change, and there was a misunderstanding of how the requirement works. You aren't eligible for a full rebuild as Dragnmoon quoted.
The fastest, and probably simplest, way to correct the issue is to rebuild 2 levels of Diabolist for Oracle, and adjusting any bonus feats. Instead of Oracle 6/Diabolist 4 you would now have a Oracle 8/Diabolist 2. Then continue on from there.
As another alternative you could drop down to Oracle 6, and then add any other class you qualify for up to level 10.
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I think that he should be allowed to rebuild the illegal levels for free and would have to retrain any other stuff
No doubt, no doubt. I don't think anyone's saying the character's just hosed--he can definitely rebuild the illegal levels. The question seems to be whether the others can also be rebuilt for free, which I don't think they are, because the clarification has existed for quite some time.
However ...
There is no requirement to have read every post ever made. Message board posts are binding if you have read them, but not otherwise.
That's a very good point.
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I'm the person who told him about the 'clarification' and my take on it was like most folks. All he had to do was 'fix' the two illegal levels. IE.. go from Oracle 6/Diabolist 4 to 8/2. I had spotted the comments on the posts and discussions and I had mentioned before that I thought that the spell requirement would be clarified BUT at the time I didn't see any issue with it.
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Apologies for the late reply... Busy day, et al.
Suffice it to say, the character in question was built early last year, but not before the 2012 post linked above, which I was not aware of until this point.
Consequently, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that the five levels of Diabolist are open to rebuilding but the five levels of Oracle preceding them are not, and I shall be proceeding accordingly.
This means more skill points, more hit points, and a new revelation, but that I am ironically still haunted (guffaw guffaw) by my choice in oracle's curse - sadly not one of the class features open for retraining via Ultimate Campaign, else I'd have done so months ago.
Thanks for the input, everyone.
I'm the person who told him about the 'clarification' and my take on it was like most folks. All he had to do was 'fix' the two illegal levels. IE.. go from Oracle 6/Diabolist 4 to 8/2. I had spotted the comments on the posts and discussions and I had mentioned before that I thought that the spell requirement would be clarified BUT at the time I didn't see any issue with it.
Hey, it gave me an excuse to spend the afternoon telling everyone how you broke my character. :p
At least, while I wasn't busy trying to survive The Goblinblood Dead with my Level 2 Investigator and a party that seemed to really like the taste of the floors.
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And then back out of it! ;psadly not one of the class features open for retraining via Ultimate Campaign, else I'd have done so months ago.If you have Inner Sea Magic, you could retrain the curse into the Black Blooded Archetype.
Hmm... That is a thought. A bit gimmicky and loopholey, but what kind of diabolic barrister would I be if I let that stop me. :p Need to scrounge up some gold pieces...
Thanks again, all.
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And then back out of it! ;psadly not one of the class features open for retraining via Ultimate Campaign, else I'd have done so months ago.If you have Inner Sea Magic, you could retrain the curse into the Black Blooded Archetype.Hmm... That is a thought. A bit gimmicky and loopholey, but what kind of diabolic barrister would I be if I let that stop me. :p Need to scrounge up some gold pieces...
Thanks again, all.
If it makes you feel any better, take legalistic from blood of fiends afterwards and promise never to do it again (or risk being sickened for 24 hours!)
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If it makes you feel any better, take legalistic from blood of fiends afterwards and promise never to do it again (or risk being sickened for 24 hours!)And then back out of it! ;psadly not one of the class features open for retraining via Ultimate Campaign, else I'd have done so months ago.If you have Inner Sea Magic, you could retrain the curse into the Black Blooded Archetype.Hmm... That is a thought. A bit gimmicky and loopholey, but what kind of diabolic barrister would I be if I let that stop me. :p Need to scrounge up some gold pieces...
Thanks again, all.
In his defense, he's already suffered for his presige class. I think he's on his.. 2nd/3rd Imp AC? Bad timing for the most part.
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I feel your pain (I had to wait till 10th level to get my first level of diabolist and only recently got the Hellish soul ability!)
But the requirements were quite clear for a while. Eariest reference of PFS requirements for Diabolist
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I tend to ignore the boards, there can be a lot of conflicting opinions. It must daunting for a new player.
The Additional Resources page is very useful The FAQ is fine but less so. Sometimes you have to drill down into the book and as some issues covering the one topic can run over several books it's not as easy I'd like.
As far as I was aware for organised play only the AR page and FAQ's are legal for PFSOP, please correct me if I am wrong.
Messageboard clarifications by the campaign leadership are binding. See page 5 of the Guide.
... and the Guide, of course, is also binding. I only bring that up because it wasn't on your list. :)