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I love reading about the ancient necromancer lords, and I am curious about what are the real differences, other than their names and location, between Geb and Tar-Baphon? It seems like the only one is that Geb was actually successful in making a functional undead nation whereas Tar-Baphon got his arse kicked and sealed away.
What in their philosophies and actions made it prudent for Aroden to fight Tar-Baphon and have a crusade led against his nation of undead and not such a massive undertaking been attempted against Geb? Did Geb not reanimate one of Aroden's heralds and use her as a mockery and a slap in the face against worshipper of Aroden and those of the holy knights who seek to vanquish the taint of undead on Golarion?
The most I have read about anything being done about Geb are agents of Ozem sneaking in and attempting to sabotage things, but no where have I seen any cohesive effort to take the nation down.
Anyone have any insight as to why the citizens of Golarion reacted to the rise of both of these necromancers in such vastly different ways, and why Geb is free to rule his own plot of land while Tar-Baphon was imprisoned within his.
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It seems to me that I recall Tar-Baphon going out and picking a fight with Aroden, which probably drew his interest (all in the name of a master plot, as it turns out, by T-B).
The links between Aroden and TB's source of power in one of the Azlanti Runelords also links him more closely to Aroden than is Geb.
(Plus, TB killed Aroden's herald first! Geb was just an also-ran.)
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One of the impressions that I received is that Geb wasn't as active broadly as Tar Baphon. Geb, mostly just stayed in his own little section of Garund & only really got into it with Nex.
The Arazni thing was as much a reaction as anything else, the Knights of Ozem invaded his domain, he didn't go looking...
I suspect, also, that Geb, unlike Tar Baphon didn't really intend to become an all-powerful undead blight on creation, he just really hated Nex, enough so that the uncertainty of what 'really' happened to Nex as a result of their war was enough to bring Geb back from death.
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Tar-Baphon was an active expansionist evil, sweeping over the lands around him and quite possibly being ready to usher in an undead apocalypse. If the tenets of the Whispering Way are to be believed, he's still kind of interested in killing every man, woman and child on the planet.
Geb stayed within his boundaries, far from any of the great nations to his north, and spent most of his energies fighting Nex, an equally powerful and amoral wizard who *also* picked a more or less out of the way place to set up shop. Unlike Tar-Baphon, he didn't even choose to embrace undeath, and, even centuries later, the ruling Blood Lords of Geb include a number of still living necromancers, while the 'Dead Laws' only give the intelligent dead *the same rights as the living,* (not, as Tar-Baphon would likely have it, no rights at all). Obviously, as one of many slaver nations in Golarion (the rest all dominated by living folk), there are indeed living people without rights, and there are also undead (skeletons and zombies, mostly) who also have no rights, and undead like mohrgs, with their appetite for murder, who aren't tolerated.
Fighting Tar-Baphon is a struggle to survive, as his goals include the destruction and subjugation of everyone around him, while Geb, given that his nation sells food to it's northern rival (and former enemy), is actually kind of a 'good neighbor,' and possibly more so than Qadira or Cheliax or Molthune or Razmiran, who have a history of either conquering nearby nations, or trying to do so, or expanding into places where they are not welcome.
Any forces for good spent opposing Geb, ignoring the vast apocalyptic threat of the Worldwound, or the lesser but active threats of Cheliax, Belkzen, Irrisen, etc. is just basically handing Team Evil a win, as they subtract from the forces of good to attack a nation that, while evil and unsavory and monstrous, *isn't actually threatening anyone.*
Which leaves the Knights of Ozem, who could someday realize that, by abandoning their responsibilities in Avistan and going on a crusade against some Garundi dude who had never heard of them (and wasn't threatening anyone), they pretty much sowed what they had reaped, which coming on the heels of messing up so bad that they got their *god* killed, had to sting. Given the alternative, of admitting they dun goofed, and are actively further weakening the forces of good by continuing their quixotic quest against Geb, I imagine the Knights of Ozem will continue to do the least good possible, while clinging to their self-righteousness and denial, since it's all they have left.
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Which leaves the Knights of Ozem, who could someday realize that, by abandoning their responsibilities...
Just wanted to address this last bit - by and large, the Knights of Ozem haven't abandoned their responsibilities. They're operating out of Lastwall, keeping watch over Gallowspire while keeping the Tyrant's lingering undead suppressed.
As best I can tell, the group of Knights of Ozem who went off and attacked Geb in an attempt to gain glory were a renegade faction, and they're still paying for their error - Geb reanimated the whole lot of them as undead slaves, and they serve as Arazni's bodyguards to this day.
Figuring out how to "fix" things by putting down Arazni the lich is a long-term goal of the Knights, but their primary duty is to keep Ustalav's Virlych county under control, and they're still doing that. They're trying to obtain Arazni's canopic jars as they get the chance, but they aren't sending squads on suicide missions to Geb.
As to Geb himself - Geb's self-contained. While he's a terrible and spiteful ghost, he spends much of his time in a bummed out funk and can't leave his nation's borders. Arazni's the one who's actually running Geb at this point, and would presumably be the mastermind if the nation went hostile and started expanding again. Considering Geb's limitation as a ghost, expanding his nation's borders, even temporarily, is what's needed to extend his personal influence.
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Dot. I think of Tar-Baphon as an evil overlord first and a necromancer only incidentally, and Geb the other way around.
Also the Whispering Tyrant is playing the evil overlord necromancer-lich Horned King trope more or less straight, while Geb is sort of skewing expectations by being a ghost rather than the more "traditional" lich or vampire.
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Gallowspire is the Realm/Castle of the Undead Lord trope played straight. Geb is that same trope subverted and played with extensively, for example the tireless undead who till fields to grow food to feed the country's living populace and to sell abroad, and the intelligent undead and living people who form partnerships and even friendships, as per the web short Blood Crimes.
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Geb is more cuddly.
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Indeed. Geb hated Nex so much that he couldn't stop, even in death, and became a ghost. His reason for still existing is basically so he'll be there to kill Nex if he ever returns to the Material Plane. Geb (the nation) was more or less a settled issue by the time Aroden came around. Wiping them off the planet might be a good thing, long term-wise, but would be difficult in the extreme, but in the short term Geb isn't doing anything any slave-owning society doesn't do.
Tar-Baphon is a evil dude who loved death and power so much be became a lich and tried to conquer the world, which is just unacceptable to the people who live in said world.
Might be interesting to see what happens if Tar-Baphon marched his legion up to Geb's border and the two have to throw down over control of hordes of undead.
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Geb was the kind of necrommancer who really didn't wanted to become an undead himself but be pragmatic about mindless undeads making life for the living easier. However his obsession for eradicate Nex became so great this project was twisted into the Geb we know now, one in which intelligent undead made the elite of society. Geb is a very pragmatic and rational individual (if we ignore his obsession for Nex), a good example of this is the commerce relation with the nation once ruled by his arch-nemesis and the rules which basically force intelligent undead behave like civilized individuals and not mindless hunger driven beasts.
Tar-Baphon is just an insane nhilist (or used to be, the imprisonment on Gallowspire perhaps has changed his mind) which pretty much was a pawn of a bigger threat.
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Geb is more cuddly.
Screwed up as it may be, this is spot on. Geb is certainly more sane and personable and less completely wackadoo evil.
Speaking extremely relatively of course. ;)
If I had to choose between two of those particular devils to deal with, it'd be Geb. But damn I'd still be reluctant about that. Dude was a nasty piece of work even before he got undeaded.
That and Geb has kept his good looks much better.
Sounds like Geb invented True Blood.
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Tar-Baphon is just an insane nhilist (or used to be, the imprisonment on Gallowspire perhaps has changed his mind) which pretty much was a pawn of a bigger threat.
I have a vision of a party busting into gallowspire to find T-B surrounded by mounds of yarn. "Nah, done with the conquest thing. I've taken up knitting. Here, have a scarf! It matches your armor!"
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One was successful.
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I have a vision of a party busting into gallowspire to find T-B surrounded by mounds of yarn. "Nah, done with the conquest thing. I've taken up knitting. Here, have a scarf! It matches your armor!"
Tar-Baphon is just an insane nhilist (or used to be, the imprisonment on Gallowspire perhaps has changed his mind) which pretty much was a pawn of a bigger threat.
That gave me a good chuckle.
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Espagnoll wrote:
Tar-Baphon is just an insane nhilist (or used to be, the imprisonment on Gallowspire perhaps has changed his mind) which pretty much was a pawn of a bigger threat.
LOL! So the party finally batters their way through the levels of Gallowspire only to be met by Tar-Baphon wearing a flowing white robe, lyre in hand..."Welcome heroes, have you heard the word of Shelyn?"
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Espagnoll wrote:
Tar-Baphon is just an insane nhilist (or used to be, the imprisonment on Gallowspire perhaps has changed his mind) which pretty much was a pawn of a bigger threat.LOL! So the party finally batters their way through the levels of Gallowspire only to be met by Tar-Baphon wearing a flowing white robe, lyre in hand..."Welcome heroes, have you heard the word of Shelyn?"
Nah, Brah, he's become a Stoner down there.
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Maybe not as significant as some of the above differences, but Tar-Baphon supplemented his undead armies with united orc hordes (being right beside Belkzen can't have hurt).
When confronted with the obvious threat of positive energy-channellers, TB hedged his bets with some living troops, whereas Geb just outlawed the channelling of positive energy.
No doubt Tar-Baphon would demand Geb bow down and kill all their living and then become vassels. This would be him being generous because Geb is so undead friendly.
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A 9 year necromantic resurrection of the discussion is quite appropiate talking of those two guys.
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No doubt Tar-Baphon would demand Geb bow down and kill all their living and then become vassels. This would be him being generous because Geb is so undead friendly.
And Geb would tell him to sit down like the petulant child he is.
Reading through Book of the Dead, I get the sense that Geb respects Tar-Baphon's power and accomplishments on an academic level, but has little interest or regard for his long term goals. Geb sees him firmly as a problem that will solve itself - either he will overreach and the living will slap him down again, albeit at great cost, or he'll eventually destroy himself. Either way, as long as he confines himself to the Gravelands he's a thorn in someone else's side.
He's interested in researching the new undead forms that have cropped up in The Whispered One's wake, and tolerates the Whispering Way for its efforts to make being undead seem cool and hip with the young necromancers, but Geb regards both the cult and their master as impractically foolish and doomed to inevitable failure. He's too busy running an actual country, rather than the incoherent mess of shrieking horrors that Lastwall turned into, and while Tar-Baphon may be more powerful with stolen magic and divine power, Geb is much older, has the resources of a properly run nation, organised armies of undead compared to Tar-Baphon's ravening hordes, and regional allies (or at least people who would see him as the lesser evil). And (he would argue) HE achieved everything he has through his own work, whereas Tar-Baphon stole the power of others.
In a way, the two of them coming to blows would be the best long-term outcome for the living (barring the nations that lie between them) since either way, the world would be down one powerful undead wizard-king, and the other left severely weakened.
I think any wizard who sees someone become a god, and doesn't immediately decide they're going to become one too instead of worshipping them, isn't worthy of the name wizard. :P
To be fair, he views Orcus as someone not worth his time as well and the a divinity. Only a demigod so it's not entirely the same, but definitely does give some info on the requirements for Geb to consider you worth his time.
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I think more importantly, the two disagree on fundamental philosophy. Tar-Baphon's ultimate goal is to rock the boat, and Geb's is to rule it. Tar-Baphon and the Whispering Way's end-goal is to exterminate humanity and other living creatures across first Golarion then the rest of the universe, leaving only an undead utopia with him as sole ruler. Cultists of the Whispering Way just want to be on the winning side. Geb might appreciate undead supremacy, but his ego would never allow someone who isn't him being at the top of the pyramid. He also understands that ghouls, vampires and other hungry dead still need something to feed on, and to keep the living pliant they need the illusion of safety and freedom. Tar-Baphon is a cult leader. Geb is a statesman.
AFAIK the Whispering Way predates Tar-Baphon by a very long time. He hijacked it for his own agenda, but it was there before him and very likely will be there after.
IIRC the Whispering Way originated from the Bone Sages of Eox who have been undead far far longer than TB.
I didn't know about the Bone Sages but you're more or less right, the philosophy is thought to have originated on Golarion during the Age of Darkness, making it much older than TB (or even Geb) but on the other hand I don't think this really changes anything about the analysis. The majority of the Whispering Way it seems have clustered around their most famous adherent as leader regardless whether the whole scheme was his idea or not, and Geb's disregard for them is not likely to be affected by the age of the philosophy.
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I didn't know about the Bone Sages but you're more or less right, the philosophy is thought to have originated on Golarion during the Age of Darkness, making it much older than TB (or even Geb) but on the other hand I don't think this really changes anything about the analysis. The majority of the Whispering Way it seems have clustered around their most famous adherent as leader regardless whether the whole scheme was his idea or not, and Geb's disregard for them is not likely to be affected by the age of the philosophy.AFAIK the Whispering Way predates Tar-Baphon by a very long time. He hijacked it for his own agenda, but it was there before him and very likely will be there after.
IIRC the Whispering Way originated from the Bone Sages of Eox who have been undead far far longer than TB.
Granted. But Geb is not all that wise either.
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I don’t quite understand the necro of this thread, but…
Geb is a wizard, a necromancer of profound study and talent who carved a nation out in his own image millennia ago. For all that his undying vendetta against Nex consumes Geb, his creation is a functional (if cruel!) society of the living and the dead that coexists with its neighbors via diplomacy and trade. Whatever consuming plagues he once unleashed, he’s a canny political figure.
Tar-Baphon is a necromantic warlord with unholy backing and aspirations of divinity. His land is a creeping blight and an existential threat, his servants’ goal is the triumph of undeath over life. Though likewise denied a resolution of his time-old grudge, TB has other things on his mind than a vanished rival at this point.
One is a scholar-king absorbed by his obsessions and the demands of his court, the other is a murderous conqueror backed by the goddess of undeath. They’re very, very different villains; Geb has had thousands of years of peace, while the Whispering Tyrant immediately destroyed one country and laid siege to another upon his return and actively menaces the entire region he touches.
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I think more importantly, the two disagree on fundamental philosophy. Tar-Baphon's ultimate goal is to rock the boat, and Geb's is to rule it. Tar-Baphon and the Whispering Way's end-goal is to exterminate humanity and other living creatures across first Golarion then the rest of the universe, leaving only an undead utopia with him as sole ruler. Cultists of the Whispering Way just want to be on the winning side. Geb might appreciate undead supremacy, but his ego would never allow someone who isn't him being at the top of the pyramid. He also understands that ghouls, vampires and other hungry dead still need something to feed on, and to keep the living pliant they need the illusion of safety and freedom. Tar-Baphon is a cult leader. Geb is a statesman.
And there's a big difference right there. Tar-Baphon, at the end of the day, is a nihilist. His endgame of killing all life on the planet will also condemn any vampires and ghouls among his hordes to eternal starvation (and also deeply frustrate the murder-happy mohrgs, life-hungry shadows, wraiths and specters, etc.). Within a few years of Tar-Baphon extinguishing all life on Golarion, half of his undead followers will have turned on each other out of hunger and frustration, and he's fine with that, since he never liked those guys anyway, he was just using them to usher in the necropocalypse.
Geb is willing to *provide for his people*, even if they are horrible life-devouring atrocities. Tarby does not give a rat's butt about them, and the eternal torment that awaits them in his undead utopia.
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I don’t quite understand the necro of this thread, but…
At least for me, it's interesting to consider because we know so much more about both of them than when the thread was originally started. Tar-Baphon rang out 1e with Tyrant's Grasp, and we now have Blood Lords plus Book of the Dead for Geb's perspective and ethos. And each of them is the closest equivalent to the other, and yet have very different interests and methods.
TB vied with Aroden for the title of Ultimate Egomaniac.
I initially read this as "tied with Aroden for the title of "Ultimate Egomaniac", and my first reaction was...well, that's not wrong. A significant chunk of 1e revolved around Aroden and his legacy. And a significant amount of 2e is centres on the looming menace of ole' Baphy.