I was hoping to find a guide or thread for helping to build and play a sword-and-board fighter tank that can take a giant beating, keep going, and dish it back out. I saw that there's a guide that uses core only, I was wondering if there's a guide using all of the books.
Thanks in advance for your help.
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Well...Unbreakable Archetype fighter might be up your alley along with using a reach weapon for zone control. But be aware that there is no threat mechanism in Pathfinder so tanking by being able to force your enemies to attack you rather than your allies doesn't happen. You have to be a credible combat force in your own right that your enemies would rather take you head on then suffer your attacks.
This usually means, as I said, a reach weapon, enlarge person, and improved and greater trip to deny other melee combatants the opportunity to ignore you and focus on your allies.
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Check out the Unbreakable archetype - you get Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats at first level. Make sure you grab Toughness and some of the save-boosting feats and their Greater versions. Obviously this is going to cut into your room for taking all kinds of crazy combat feats, but you're going to have to decide what the appropriate tradeoff for offense and defense is.
Make sure you keep in mind that boosting your AC really high just means that enemies ignore you. Honestly, you may be better off with a splash of fighter and then Barbarian - DR, high damage, and high HP is better for attracting enemy attention than AC.
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There actually is a "taunt" to make people attack you in Pathfinder, the Compel Hostility spell. It's hard for a core fighter to use, but It would work really well for a paladin or sword and board ranger.
Honestly a plain vanilla fighter well built around sword and board is a good tank. Best to use a dwarf since it is the only way you can get acceptable saves (against magic at least).
The problem with many of the archetypes on fighters is that while they seem to have neat tricks, they give up weapon training which is really necessary to have a fighter do enough damage to be deemed a threat. Otherwise you have to play games an hope they manage to work. Now a 1 handed fighter is only going to do around 60% of a THF (possibly less if they THF is using the archetype), but that is generally enough so they ignoring them is dangerous. If you add in abilities which do some battlefield control, you become even more compelling as a threat, but never skimp on the damage.
I'd say a dwarf fighter with steel soul, iron hide, glory of old trait, dodge, shield focus, greater shield focus, and perhaps stand still would serve you well (and of course the specialization stuff as well).
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I was hoping to find a guide or thread for helping to build and play a sword-and-board fighter tank that can take a giant beating, keep going, and dish it back out. I saw that there's a guide that uses core only, I was wondering if there's a guide using all of the books.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Here is a link to the mechanics and tactics of a Samurai I recently played to good effect. While the character primarily fought with two-handed weapons he would strap on a shield for the rare situations where it was more important to occupy a space in a narrow corridor than to put out the higher damage afforded by two-handed fighting.
Some general ideas for the beginner:
1. Read and re-read the combat section of the rules. Know it inside and out and try to game out against which kinds of opponents you'd be willing to eat an attack of opportunity to do a combat maneuver (supposing you don't have the relevant feat).
2. The best way to keep enemies away from your squishier friends is to demand their attention by dishing out glorious harm by the barrel full on the battlefield.
3. Conserve resources by avoiding unnecessary combat by diplomacy, bribery, or trickery.
I found another nice guide: A Guide to the Fighter in Pathfinder.
Hey, thanks all. I'll take a look at that guide, Humphrey.
If anyone has anymore input, feel free!
My suggestion is Fighter Armor Master, with Stalwart and shield feats.
Reach weapons, combat reflexes, step up, and massive damage make you a tank in pathfinder. You have to be a threat that enemies can't ignore and have a way to force them to move the way you want them to.
For sword and board, you're probably better off looking at two weapon fighting with shield bashing, because then you can shield slam enemies around the battlespace, get the ac bump of a shield, and can attack more to keep your damage up.
Also vanilla fighter isn't bad because the armor training will allow you to keep your movement up higher than the archtypes, and you will need to get yourself in front of enemies that chose not to come to you.
Throw in some teamwork feats if you have another heavy hitter in the party and you could be a pretty effective secondary smasher.
Quoting this for emphasis. If you make a character that's hard to hit and incredibly tough, but you do it at the expense of offensive output, enemies will simply ignore you.
Reach weapons, combat reflexes, step up, and massive damage make you a tank in pathfinder. You have to be a threat that enemies can't ignore and have a way to force them to move the way you want them to.
I'm probably forgetting something, but it seems like Reach weapons don't combo well with step up. Sure, they can't get out of your reach with a 5-foot step, but you don't threaten those spaces immediately surrounding you, so they could just take a move action to move 5 feet, anyway, if that's all they need to go, or just take the AoO to get where they need to go. Then, if they're not adjacent, they can just 5-foot step away. Sure, they'll still have to take a fair amount of time to get out of your reach, but you can't punish them much for it, since you can't hit them, if they're adjacent. And moreover, you could really get just as much out of having either, rather than both.
You can always go the Improved Shield Bash/Two-Weapon Fighting route. Depending on exactly what you want to accomplish, mobile fighter (for more melee attacks, even when moving), phalanx soldier (for attacking at reach), or two-weapon warrior (for higher bonuses to AC and attacks) can work.
Mobile fighter - go with 15-16 Dex to start and increase to 17-18 to pick up Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; scimitar and light (spiked/bashing) shield; Bashing Finish and Improved Critical are good feat choices to increase the number of attacks even more; Double Slice is recommended to keep the shield damage respectable, as is Shield Master.
Phalanx soldier - doesn't really need more than 15-16 Dex; polearm and light shield after 3rd level; invest in Improved Bull Rush and Shield Slam (the shield bash plus free bull rush is to push adjacent opponents into reach distance, where you smack them with your (impact) polearm); Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Greater Trip (or other maneuver feats) can also be worth looking at, since many polearms gain bonuses with maneuvers.
Two-weapon warrior - again, go with 15-16 Dex to start and increase to 17-18; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Falcata) and switch from a light shield to a heavy shield at 11th level; you won't get as many attacks on average as the mobile fighter, so stack as many bonuses on attack rolls and damage (Double Slice, Improved Critical (Falcata), Power Attack, Shield Master, Two-Weapon Rend, etc.) as you can to make them hurt.
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Reach weapons, combat reflexes, step up, and massive damage make you a tank in pathfinder.
Depending upon how old-school you want to get with definitions, "tank" originally meant someone who can ward off massive punishment (physical and mental) -- he is not normally the PC capable of dishing out the most damage (although he often, from mere appearance, fools the enemy into assuming so). A good way to judge a the "tankiness" of a build is to measure how much healing/unsucking it needs during combat with challenging opponents.
The mentality of the steroid barbarian is "I'm going to dish it out faster than I take it!"
The mentality of the tank is "I'm going to take it less than I dish it out!"
-- S&B paladins and dwarf fighters are the toughest tanks.
T'nk (20pt dwarf)
STR:15 (7)
DEX:14 (5)
CON+16 (5)
INT:14 (5)
WIS+14 (2)
CHA-05 (-4)
traits: Birthmark (religion), Glory of Old (regional)
01 fight1 [Tower Shield Specialist], Iron Will, Steel Soul
...equipment: four mirror armor (45), tower shield (30), dwarven waraxe (30)
Attack: (3-2=)+1; AC:22; saves vs. magic: F+10/R+7/W+9 (+11 vs charm/compulsion).
-- At 1st level, T'nk is only ~45% to hit crappy mooks, but they need a 19 or 20 to hit him. He makes his saves ~80% of the time. Party healer seldom has to "budget" resources for him.
02 cleric1 [Abadar:Protection/Travel], 1st
... saves: F+13/R+8/W+13 (no cloak, no spells!); Sense Motive now class, speed doubles to 40 in heavy armor with Longstrider up.
03 fight2 [Burst Barrier], Shield Focus, Additional Traits [Militant Merchant (racial), Defender of the Society (combat)]
...AC now +2, Perception jumps +5 this level (assuming bought).
04 fight3 STR>16, [Tower Shield Training]
05 fight4 Dodge, Combat Expertise
06 fight5 [Tower Shield Specialist]
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Skills per level: 4 (spent on Perception, Sense Motive, rest grab bag).
Tactics: Takes point (or is second after a rogue). Expects to (and positions himself to) bear the brunt of melee attacks. Unlike most fighters, invites being targeted by spellcasters.
Offense is worthless at low-level but mainly irrelevant since his job is to block the choke-point eating all the incoming; offense steadily improves thereafter (he is, after all, a fighter). Teener levels: T'nk has traded some offensive power (Weapon Training + gloves) for best-in-game defense (tower shield bonus now applying to touch AC as well); he considers this well worth it, since he expects to be a target three to four times as often as he gets to attack.
For the sake of debate, how does this character keep intelligent enemies he engages from walking around him and pounding on the caster or rogue first?By making it so they can't hit the caster or rogue either.
Your ally's AC will still be lower than yours, and you've voluntarily reduced your offensive output to zero. So now there really is nothing stopping enemies from taking move actions right past you to hit your still-squishy ally. You can't even make attacks of opportunity when using Total Defense, which is so incredibly situational that it will rarely, if ever see use. Definitely not something worth spending a feat on.
The best way to avoid taking damage is still to kill or debilitate enemies before they can damage you.
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An 11th lvl wizard or sorcerer can make short work of you though. Vs him you can neithe rprotect your allies, nor threaten him with your mediocre damage.
So you want the fighter to be able to take out any and every threat singlehandedly? I thought this was a discussion about building tanks, not Superman.
An invulnerable rager utilizing the stalwart feats and the superstition rage power tree will be an excellent tank and still deal great DPR and have debuffing and battlefield control abilities with dazzing assault and come and get me.
Combine with Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess, and a Cruel weapon. Add Dreadful Carnage at level 11. Now you're making Intimidate checks against everyone that you hit with Power Attack, and everyone in a 30' radius every time you land a killing blow.
Intimidating Prowess and maybe Skill Focus, maybe a Competence bonus from an item, means your Intimidates are likely to succeed most of the time. Hitting a shaken opponent with a Cruel weapon makes them sickened on top of it. That'll get their attention.
It's not very feat-intensive (certainly not as much as Two-Weapon Fighting) so it's a great option for Paladins and Barbarians as well. As a Fighter you can use your spare feats and a reach weapon (and Potions of Enlarge Person) to lock down a huge area.
An invulnerable rager utilizing the stalwart feats and the superstition rage power tree will be an excellent tank and still deal great DPR and have debuffing and battlefield control abilities with dazzing assault and come and get me.
Honestly, every time I see this come up, it confuses me. Why do people seem to thing a CaGM Barbarian is Tanky. It's really just the opposite of tanky. The Bonus to attack and damage rolls is tanky, but getting an AoO on every attack made against you defeats that. Essentially, any enemy above animal intelligence, would probably deprioritize you as a target, once they notice their friend get turned into chunky salsa when they tried to attack you. Sure, the first guy sees you as a good target, but after that first guy, everyone else turns around and sees if they can get at another PC. Preferably someone who won't hit them in the face before they get a swing in.
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A great counter indeed, but it is a 5th lvl spell. Wizards get at at 9th lvl, which is the level when barbarians can dip Oracle for fatigue immunity.
And then he's not a straight-up barbarian and thus does not fall within the purview of my comment. Much the same as 11th level casters didn't fall within the purview of my fighter comment.
"This makes it immune to that tactic" is so obvious it hardly bears mentioning.
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I am not talking about any sword and board fighter, but for the ones that invest everything in defense, sacrificing their offensive capabilities (combat expertise, tower shield, archetyeps that exchange weapon training etc.).
Yeah, because a Shielded Fighter who 2-hands a Shield Bash can get some pretty insane AC and offense, and with the right feats, decent saves too.
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Or ranged attacks, especially against one who pops CaGM... sure they provoke, only you are not in position to do anything about it.
I mean, sure it's a fun build, but this nonsense that a sword and board fighter does so little damage that people will just ignore them is just ridiculous.
Not ridiculous at all. While GMing PFS tables I've encountered several PCs with great defense and weak offense. In most cases they were able to effectively protect their allies. In some few cases tactically savvy foes utterly ignored them and did great harm to the rest of the team, which they were unable to protect.
I also recall once playing with a very defensive tanky ally who got ignored, and having to pick up the slack with a reach Cleric. That worked, but hurt and was risky.
If I had to choose one martial ally I'd choose a Barbarian with a polearm over a defensive tank. If I could have two martial allies I might take one of each, as they are complementary.
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Or ranged attacks, especially against one who pops CaGM... sure they provoke, only you are not in position to do anything about it.
I mean, sure it's a fun build, but this nonsense that a sword and board fighter does so little damage that people will just ignore them is just ridiculous.
Not ridiculous at all. While GMing PFS tables I've encountered several PCs with great defense and weak offense. In most cases they were able to effectively protect their allies. In some few cases tactically savvy foes utterly ignored them and did great harm to the rest of the team, which they were unable to protect.
I also recall playing with a very defensive tanky ally who got ignored, and having to pick up the slack with a reach Cleric.
If I had to choose one martial ally I'd choose a Barbarian with a polearm over a defensive tank. If I could have two martial allies I might take one of each, as they are complementary.
I can find exceptions and select cases too... but when having discussions of this nature one generally considers the most, not least common... unless they are trying to skew the debate. So my statement stands.
And I know you are contractually obligated to mention reach combat in every thread you post on, but I have to wonder if any GM that deals with constant spear fighters ever takes the time to sunder the games most fragile melee weapons.
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I actually agree with you, Fomsie. The defensive tank builds were usually effective, and sometimes perfect for the situation. They are rarely ignored. That's speaking as a neutral GM.
Edited: I admit it. Acme Polearms & Longspears, Ltd. pays me a gratuity to mention them in every thread. I'm a sockpuppet for the reach weapon industry. Your sunders are our profit!
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(Regarding the T'nk fighter build I posted earlier in the thread....)
I would say that the efectiveness of such a build depends on your ability to bottleneck the enemy. In my experience, this is more often possible at lower lvls in dungeons. But in open ground or against flying enemies, youa re just going to look like a fool (no offence) when everybody just ignores you and goes after your team.This is really just a standard whine about melees in general concerning an aspect which is solved with proper feat selection and tactics -- which the T'nk character would certainly have available to him given that he's a fighter with a good half-dozen levels to go before flying opponents become a concern.
You have combat exp. which means that you can take some maneuvers that will give you some way to battlefield control effectively for some lvls, but with the penalties from combat expertise, the tower sjield and the loss of weapon training you are not very reliable,a fighter without Weapon Training remains on-par with the attack-bonus of other melees; as noted, it's a trade-off for jacking touch AC to the nines. Note also that the tower shield penalty disappears at 5th in the archetype.
neither youa re in position to aquire dazzing assault.I would hardly call every melee who lacks Dazing Assault suboptimal (and most monsters will easily beat a 10+level fortitude save in the teen levels. The -5 attack penalty of the feat makes it a hard sell for even highly offensive fighters.
At least Pin down exists.Not to mention Pushing Assault (which is a charge-lane-breaker when AoO-smacked against opponents attempting to rush by you).
However, I think that suck a build is viable only if all your comrades can do what they do from a very long range. Otherwise you will often find yourself Last Man Standing.
If they're doing a good job funneling the bad guys via wall spells and pits (etc), they can do what they can do from a few paces behind me. A simple Enlarge Person has T'nk controlling 20' of access and being a plug for 10' of it.
Lastly, being "Last Man Standing" is preferable (both from a personal and a party POV) to "First Man Down".
You have combat exp. which means that you can take some maneuvers that will give you some way to battlefield control effectively for some lvls, but with the penalties from combat expertise, the tower sjield and the loss of weapon training you are not very reliable,a fighter without Weapon Training remains on-par with the attack-bonus of other melees; as noted, it's a trade-off for jacking touch AC to the nines. Note also that the tower shield penalty disappears at 5th in the archetype.
Except, not really. All other full BAB classes have some ways to increase their To-Hit and damage. Without WT, you're closer to being on par with classes like the Magus or Inquisitor. With the loss from Combat expertise, you're even lower than that. You're a bigger threat than classes not really intended for combat, but that's about it. You're not going to be tanking effectively, since the enemy has no real reason to care about your presence.