Wow has it really been two years?
I briefly played a Beguiler in a 3.5 campaign (it ended after a handful of games). I really enjoyed the class, though the full casting ability always seemed overpowered to me. I haven't looked closely at your conversion, but how did you address this issue?
Never mind. I found the answer to my question on the PF Subreddit.
This is most impressive.
Very cool. I like that you changed the counterfeit blood over to an illusion based disguise rather than polymorph, that seems way more fitting for a beguiler. I also love what you did with the shadowgraft skirmisher, I think it and the counterfeit blood are some of your best work flavorwise.
It'd be exciting to see some new equipment and spells, too.
It'd be exciting to see some new equipment and spells, too.I can probably come up with a few more items. Any idea about what kind of new spells you might be interested in? I don't think I want to add any more high level spells, but some lower level spells might be interesting.
I agree, some low level spells would be cool, especially a kind of signature cantrip that only beguilers could use. Not sure exactly what kind of spells they should be, though.
I'm currently working with one of my players who's running a beguiler to develop a new cantrip that he wants to make his signature spell. It opens an extradimensional link between one of his pockets and the pocket/coinpurse/other small container of another person within close range. This lets him reach into his own pocket and have his hand appear in theirs. The rules we're hashing out right now include: can't bring magical items through the link, must make sleight of hand check to successfully steal still and if the target reaches into the pocket it breaks the spell. Kind of a fun little situational trick that's mostly just good for grabbing keys and coins on the sly.
Maybe it's just me, but that sounds more like at least a 1st level spell.
Any chance of updating the Dragon Disciple? My son loves that class.
Any chance of updating the Dragon Disciple? My son loves that class.Right now I'm pretty busy so I don't foresee being able to tackle another conversion for a while.
No worries. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
It'd be exciting to see some new equipment and spells, too.I can probably come up with a few more items. Any idea about what kind of new spells you might be interested in? I don't think I want to add any more high level spells, but some lower level spells might be interesting.
I think it'd be cool to have a spell that functions like silence, but creates illusory sound both inside and outside the spell's radius. Basically a way to silence a creature/area without letting anybody know it has been silenced.
I'm currently working with one of my players who's running a beguiler to develop a new cantrip that he wants to make his signature spell. It opens an extradimensional link between one of his pockets and the pocket/coinpurse/other small container of another person within close range. This lets him reach into his own pocket and have his hand appear in theirs. The rules we're hashing out right now include: can't bring magical items through the link, must make sleight of hand check to successfully steal still and if the target reaches into the pocket it breaks the spell. Kind of a fun little situational trick that's mostly just good for grabbing keys and coins on the sly.
So what happens when the beguiler has his hand in somebody's pocket and they break the spell by reaching in to their own pocket? Seems like a crummy (though hilariously appropriate) way to lose a hand.
I'm currently working with one of my players who's running a beguiler to develop a new cantrip that he wants to make his signature spell. It opens an extradimensional link between one of his pockets and the pocket/coinpurse/other small container of another person within close range. This lets him reach into his own pocket and have his hand appear in theirs. The rules we're hashing out right now include: can't bring magical items through the link, must make sleight of hand check to successfully steal still and if the target reaches into the pocket it breaks the spell. Kind of a fun little situational trick that's mostly just good for grabbing keys and coins on the sly.So what happens when the beguiler has his hand in somebody's pocket and they break the spell by reaching in to their own pocket? Seems like a crummy (though hilariously appropriate) way to lose a hand.
It'd just shunt the beguiler's hand back to his own pocket.
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Hey everyone - I've really been enjoying this thread!
Hope you don't mind, but I wanted to ask that everyone check out the just released New Paths 8: The Trickster from Kobold Press
The New Paths line has had a number of popular classes so far, including the Spell-less Ranger, White Necromancer, Battle Scion, Shaman, and the New Paths Compendium
The Trickster class is essentially an arcane rogue type of class that has built in customization through its Forte class feature, which include Acrobatics, Arcane Accomplice, Spell Pilfer and ... you guessed it, Beguile!
While not a full-fledged Beguiler-like conversion like ertw has done so masterfully, if you choose the Beguile forte, you can make a class that has much of the Beguiler's flavor and ability. Please check out New Paths 8: The Trickster and see what you think!
Looks very interesting. Added to my cart!
Looks very interesting. Added to my cart!Thanks DungeonmasterCal!
Once you've had a chance to give it a good once-over, please consider posting a review :)
It might be a couple weeks before I can get it, but I'll definitely do so! I'm saving my cash to buy it and Ultimate Intrigue at the same time.
I'm currently working with one of my players who's running a beguiler to develop a new cantrip that he wants to make his signature spell. It opens an extradimensional link between one of his pockets and the pocket/coinpurse/other small container of another person within close range. This lets him reach into his own pocket and have his hand appear in theirs. The rules we're hashing out right now include: can't bring magical items through the link, must make sleight of hand check to successfully steal still and if the target reaches into the pocket it breaks the spell. Kind of a fun little situational trick that's mostly just good for grabbing keys and coins on the sly.** spoiler omitted **...
Absolutely perfect. I love the idea that a perceived theft has a chance to fail. Great job, Ertw.
That's a mighty fine cantrip right there.
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So I just found this class after seeing glowing recommendations in a few of my regular haunts and all I have to say is WOW! You have done an absolutely spectacular job with this document. It's beautifully designed (seriously how did you get it to look like an official product?), it has tons of flavor and is full of spectacularly interesting crunch. I am so excited to get started putting my character together. Thank you for your all your tremendous work on this project, ertw.
I've put together another new spell, let me know what you think of it.
** spoiler omitted **
Isn't that just touch injection?
So does the target of impose dependence suddenly feel a general malaise, or do they know specifically that they're suddenly addicted to a drug they've never taken? More importantly do they have any way to know exactly which drug they're addicted to?
I'm thinking maybe I'll add a short delay between the touch and the onset of the addiction
That'll be good to give the beguiler a moment to get away before the enemy knows what's happened.
I recently came across this FAQ, I'm curious if you were aware of this ruling. It seems to suggest that even a silent and still spell would be noticeable. I think it may impact the beguiler a little and especially the false theurgy and enchanted casting order powers.
So they did not intend to allow subterfuge while casting with Still Spell?
I just downloaded the pdf and can't find this in the document. Is there a new download link that I'm not seeing somewhere? Or where is this new class ability in the document I just re-downloaded (from the link posted a few weeks back). I'm honestly not seeing this in the document anywhere.
Hidden Signs
I like it. Simple, straightforward, and if you're not using the clarification from that FAQ it doesn't actually change the class at all.
New class feature to patch the FAQ issue SylverFox brought up:
** spoiler omitted **
Doesn't enchanted casting need to be updated too to take this ability into consideration (since a spell that still has material/focus components would technically not allow for the bluff check as worded)?
I just downloaded the pdf and can't find this in the document. Is there a new download link that I'm not seeing somewhere? Or where is this new class ability in the document I just re-downloaded (from the link posted a few weeks back). I'm honestly not seeing this in the document anywhere.I haven't updated the PDF yet, I just posted here to get peoples' thoughts. I'll likely push it out with a few new spells I've been working on.
Oh, excellent! Thanks for getting back to me.
Move Heavens looks cool, but it seems to be useful only in super-specific circumstances.
I agree with Arakhor, move heavens looks really interesting, but it's super situational. That said, I'm intrigued by the opportunity to use the spell beyond just the mechanical benefits listed in the spell description. Particularly using them to fake signs from the gods (eclipses at opportune moments, meteors acting as heralds of prophecy, ect.) seems like it could get fun. Probably not a spell to learn, but maybe one to pick up with savvy preparation when it comes in handy. I think it might be more interesting if it came with a way to lead a foe who is navigating by the stars astray, possibly an opposed bluff check against their survival.
Halcyon veil is great, I'm guessing it'll mostly be used projecting outward to hide murders or break into guarded areas and whatnot, but the whole time I was reading it I had this hilarious image in my mind of a beguiler strolling through a burning city under siege with somebody giving them a "guided tour" of this "burgeoning metropolis".
Easy mark is I think where things fell off. I get what you're trying to say, but the wording is just super muddled and kludgey it'd be easy for people to misunderstand the spell. I can't really think of any way to make the wording any clearer myself, which makes me think this one might be dead on the table. It's definitely an interesting concept, but I feel like it just overpowers things like phantasmal killer or shadow evocation (even with the extra save). My recommendation is to scrap this one.
Based on SylverFox's suggestion about a silence-like spell where the beguiler could control illusory sounds emanating from within/without:
** spoiler omitted **
Totally awesome! I like this way more than just the auditory illusion idea I had.
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Updated conversion document, 2 year anniversary edition with two new orders and three new archetypes can be found here:
bit.ly/pathfinderbeguiler
Sorry it took so long, but I've finally got around to compiling my thoughts on the new options here:
- Counterfeit Blood: It's hard for me to decide whether this new order or the Shadowgraft Skirmisher are my favorite additions to the class. CB is full of flavor, its powers are unique and exciting (even though they are more suited to an intrigue game than a combat game). Absolutely perfect.
- Ghastly Claw: I never particularly cared for the Spell Kill ability, I think Malicious Maneuvers is a pretty good replacement power. The wording about feat qualification seems a bit clunky, I wonder if it might be better served by granting them the benefits of the Dirty Fighting feat which is basically the same thing.
- Petrified Mind: Not really my cup of tea, but still an interesting option for an intimidate build. Probably synergizes well with something like a few levels slayer or anti-paladin, haven't really theorycrafted that to completion, but you'd still be giving up beguiler spellcasting for that so it seems a fair trade. Does the Daunting Illusion ability pertain to illusions that are purely sonic in nature like ghost sound? If so you might want to change the last line of the ability to match that. I like the way that the Creeping Fear ability is stepped which will prevent a simple 7 level beguiler dip being used to make a super powered lockdown build. Typo note: you've got their 3rd level order spell listed as "REPLACE", I'm guessing that was a note to yourself that made it through the editing process.
- Shadowgraft Skirmisher: As I mentioned this is a favorite addition of mine. It's a very cool take on the Stygian Skirmisher PrC from the Inner Seas Beguilers document. I love the flavor and mechanics of the Shadowblade, IMHO it's a much better implementation than Paizo's recent release of Shadowcraft Weapons from Blood of Shadows. One big question I have is: how does the Shadowblade interact with Wraith Strike? It seems like a perfect opportunity for use of the d6 damage dice instead of d4s, but as written it wouldn't gain this benefit. Maybe you can say it's treated as if it were made of a special material like umbrite and add umbrite weapons to the list of things that advance Wraith Strike's damage dice? It also seems to me that taking a full round action to change the type of an already summoned weapon is a bit prohibitive (especially since it's already keying on Weapon Focus as a feat tax), maybe the ability to decrease the change time as a move/swift action could be added at the cost of a few arcane pool points? Another thematic option I had thought of for Umbral Sorcery was an option to spend arcane pool points to charge and full attack like the Swordmaster Rogue's Tiger Trance (particularly because this is meant to be a more martial beguiler).
- Tomebound Beguiler: An interesting option for those who want to go guild-less. I like the pseudo-spellbook of the tome, but I think the spellcasting ends up a little wonky because it's mixing the standard sorcerer progression with a lot of savvy preparation. I'd recommend just outright giving this archetype Arcanist spellcasting which will result in the same more breadth at the cost of decreased spell slots mentality. If you're still restricting the spell list, that kind of casting doesn't seem particularly unbalancing. Beguiling Strike is kind of a fun antipode to the Magus' Spell Combat. Adept Beguiler seems like a bit of a let down in terms of a capstone for the archetype, but I'm not sure what you could do there. Typo note: in the Beguiling Strike ability, you have an unmatched closing bracket at the end of the sentence about the spell's reduced range.
- Whispering Initiate: I don't 100% have a feel for this archetype. It seems like more of a NPC class than a PC class (as others have said). I suppose it has its niche in an intrigue-based game, but this really doesn't grab me the same way that a Wandering Heart beguiler would for that purpose. As others have stated, the strong scrying focus is a tad odd for PCs. I wonder if adding enchantment/mind-affecting spells to Piercing Gaze might give the archetype a bit more heft as more than a scrying master.
I hope you find these comments helpful and thank you again for your hard work these past two years.