Regardless of valid tangential arguments LoTR is by no stretch of the imagination more than an E6 campaign.
The only one potentially playing a high level campaign is Gandalf, who is always worried about far greater powers than the foes the rest of the party is suppose to face. And he did at the cost of his own life kill a CR 20 encounter. For the most part though, Gandalf remains contained, perhaps not to draw the attention of greater powers during a stealth mission.
I'd be a little more generous and say maybe level 8 maximum by the end of RotK. Reason being, Helms Deep was a ridiculous battle and the Uruks were much better fighters than average goblins or orcs. All members of the fellowship present should have leveled once there. As for Frodo and Sam, they've be 6 max probably. Shelob, if you apply both the advanced and giant templates, then add another couple hit dice, is only a CR 4 encounter. Merry and Pippin watched a battle from walking trees, then got high, no XP.
One of the more interesting implications of your statement, Marthkus, is what precisely that encounter with the Balrog makes the Witch King, in comparison. They never really tangled in the books, but the movie version had him annihilating Gandalf's staff with but a gesture from across a clearing. Balrog didn't do that. And yet, this is the undead jerk that Aragorn chased off with a sword and torch when there were four other Nazgul nearby. A being as old and mighty as the Witch King wouldn't misjudge Gandalf's power, yet he fled from one schmuck ranger?
what precisely that encounter with the Balrog makes the Witch King, in comparison. They never really tangled in the books, but the movie version had him annihilating Gandalf's staff with but a gesture from across a clearing. Balrog didn't do that. And yet, this is the undead jerk that Aragorn chased off with a sword and torch when there were four other Nazgul nearby. A being as old and mighty as the Witch King wouldn't misjudge Gandalf's power, yet he fled from one schmuck ranger?
That doesn't mean the Witch King is super high level. It just means he has Disjunction as a Spell Like Ability.
Definitely a powerful ability, but if you're a 6th level dude wielding a torch, it doesn't mean much to you.
The problem you're running into there, Cerberus Seven, is the movie being the movie.
Always go to the original canon for this kind of conversation.
The other thing is, the Nazgul were still growing in power earlier in the books. It may have been down to the Ring getting closer to Mordor, Sauron martialling his strength, or simply getting more desperate, but it seemed as time went on the forces of Evil in general, and the Nazgul in particular were getting more and more powerful.
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They should be able to craft magical armor and weapons without taking three feats :(
Actually...the idea occurs to me that it might be a good idea to introduce a Martial Level principal into the game... similar in principle to caster level and granted ONLY by levels taken in classes which grant no casting (Maybe Ranger and Paladin grant 1/2 their class levels to Martial Level?) Then we can come up with tons of cool stuff based on Martial Level (as opposed to BAB which casters get too, in lesser supply.)
I could get behind this idea.
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This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.
This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.
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So, for martial characters to get nice things, first we'd need an agreement how the game should be structured.
Option 1: Low-level characters are all fairly mundane, and high-level characters can all do game-breaking crazy shit.
Option 2: Fairly mundane stuff is spread across 20 levels, and mythic tiers are used to allow game-breaking crazytime.
The way the game is written now, the casters fit Option 1, and the martials fit Option 2. That's pretty schizophrenic.
If we go with Option 1, we leave the casters alone and go nuts with the martials at higher levels. That's what they did with the Tomes stuff, and also the direction I took with "Kirthfinder," but it's not the only possibility.
If we go with Option 2, then things like teleport and planar binding become tiered Mythic powers instead of spells that you just get.
It would be possible to blend the two -- scaling back non-mythic casters a little bit, expanding high-level non-mythic martials a little bit, and so on, but that would be twice the effort.
But in any case, before anything else, someone would have to make a decision which direction to go in.
So, for martial characters to get nice things, first we'd need an agreement how the game should be structured.
Option 1 sounds like it means creating a whole new set of abilities for martial characters, that could end up overlapping or clashing with Mythic rules for people that wanted to use those as well.
Option 2 sounds like it'd be more a case of creating some new Mythic abilities to represent some desirable martial abilities currently not in there and shuffling some standard spells into Mythic tiers. That could potentially result in less work being necessary due to being able to reuse much of the current Mythic framework (and given it's in the PRD, leans towards being able to pull the existing parts you want into a shiny new document under the OGL)
I'd suggest option 2 purely because it uses so much of the groundwork that's already been done (the Mythic rules) and provides that clear line of demarcation between the mundane and the mythic - it also looks like individual tables could choose when those abilities cut in - there seems to be varied opinion around whether it starts around L5 or L8 for the sort of games you're looking for, and I expect others feel differently too, so allowing for table variation here would allow for tuning it to table preference. It also may mean a lot more people would be interested in participating - for example, people who are also interested in scaling down magic use rather than scaling up martial abilities, as it provides for both ends of the scale.
(Also, I'm quite happy with how I'm currently house-ruling things in Pathfinder, so I don't really have any vested interest in either option over the other, just wanted to point out some things that might help people decide :) )
This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.Like stopping time for about a day?
Yeah... that's honestly what made me go from really liking to really disliking Mythic rules in a short span of time. Mythic solved my issues with Martial characters very well, especially with Paths like the Guardian and Marshal, which allowed martial characters to do things that I couldn't get without going back to 4e (I'm not as down on that system as most people, but still, I'd prefer pathfinder) or a Point Buy universal system (which would be my go-to response, but it's almost impossible to get people to play HERO for fantasy, because invariably the group just looks kind of befuddled and goes "What? I don't know that system; why not just play D&D/PF?"), but it went too far in several areas, Magic being one of them.
I personally find Torchwick, Blake, and Sun to be great examples of where I want melee to be in my games.
Yeah... that's honestly what made me go from really liking to really disliking Mythic rules in a short span of time. Mythic solved my issues with Martial characters very well, especially with Paths like the Guardian and Marshal, which allowed martial characters to do things that I couldn't get without going back to 4e (I'm not as down on that system as most people, but still, I'd prefer pathfinder) or a Point Buy universal system (which would be my go-to response, but it's almost impossible to get people to play HERO for fantasy, because invariably the group just looks kind of befuddled and goes "What? I don't know that system; why not just play D&D/PF?"), but it went too far in several areas, Magic being one of them.This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.Like stopping time for about a day?
That spell DOES require being tier 10 and using at least 2-3 points of mythic power. You also can't rest to regain anything in it. Just saying, it's not going to break the majority of mythic games.
That spell DOES require being tier 10 and using at least 2-3 points of mythic power. You also can't rest to regain anything in it. Just saying, it's not going to break the majority of mythic games.Yeah... that's honestly what made me go from really liking to really disliking Mythic rules in a short span of time. Mythic solved my issues with Martial characters very well, especially with Paths like the Guardian and Marshal, which allowed martial characters to do things that I couldn't get without going back to 4e (I'm not as down on that system as most people, but still, I'd prefer pathfinder) or a Point Buy universal system (which would be my go-to response, but it's almost impossible to get people to play HERO for fantasy, because invariably the group just looks kind of befuddled and goes "What? I don't know that system; why not just play D&D/PF?"), but it went too far in several areas, Magic being one of them.This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.Like stopping time for about a day?
The actual spell isn't the problem, specifically, but what it represents: simply that Mythic came along and got Martials to be closer to where I wanted them, but then turned Casters up to 11, when they already curb-stomp non-casters, to the point that I can't use mythic rules without serious house-ruling.
The actual spell isn't the problem, specifically, but what it represents: simply that Mythic came along and got Martials to be closer to where I wanted them, but then turned Casters up to 11, when they already curb-stomp non-casters, to the point that I can't use mythic rules without serious house-ruling.That spell DOES require being tier 10 and using at least 2-3 points of mythic power. You also can't rest to regain anything in it. Just saying, it's not going to break the majority of mythic games.Yeah... that's honestly what made me go from really liking to really disliking Mythic rules in a short span of time. Mythic solved my issues with Martial characters very well, especially with Paths like the Guardian and Marshal, which allowed martial characters to do things that I couldn't get without going back to 4e (I'm not as down on that system as most people, but still, I'd prefer pathfinder) or a Point Buy universal system (which would be my go-to response, but it's almost impossible to get people to play HERO for fantasy, because invariably the group just looks kind of befuddled and goes "What? I don't know that system; why not just play D&D/PF?"), but it went too far in several areas, Magic being one of them.This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.Like stopping time for about a day?
Haven't had that problem in our games. Martials received WAY more of a boost than casters.
The actual spell isn't the problem, specifically, but what it represents: simply that Mythic came along and got Martials to be closer to where I wanted them, but then turned Casters up to 11, when they already curb-stomp non-casters, to the point that I can't use mythic rules without serious house-ruling.That spell DOES require being tier 10 and using at least 2-3 points of mythic power. You also can't rest to regain anything in it. Just saying, it's not going to break the majority of mythic games.Yeah... that's honestly what made me go from really liking to really disliking Mythic rules in a short span of time. Mythic solved my issues with Martial characters very well, especially with Paths like the Guardian and Marshal, which allowed martial characters to do things that I couldn't get without going back to 4e (I'm not as down on that system as most people, but still, I'd prefer pathfinder) or a Point Buy universal system (which would be my go-to response, but it's almost impossible to get people to play HERO for fantasy, because invariably the group just looks kind of befuddled and goes "What? I don't know that system; why not just play D&D/PF?"), but it went too far in several areas, Magic being one of them.This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.Like stopping time for about a day?
What other mythic spells and abilities for casters have caused you that much of a problem?
What other mythic spells and abilities for casters have caused you that much of a problem?I would guess the ability, given out at Tier 1, to cast any spell off your list regardless of whether or not you know the spell for the low low cost of a single mythic point. It is pretty much better than any ability available to any of the martial paths and just keeps getting better as you go up in level.
...
Caster cast more. Oh no! Not a significant power increase.
Archers shooting at 5x range while generating no AOOs, being able to move and full-attack at double speed, full attack with not iterative penalties without expending mythic power. Can gain flight, polymorph, spell-like abilities, planeshift ect.
No martials gain access to things they could normally never do. Casters only get what paragon surge abuse could already give them. Plus some over fun things, but it's no-where near what martials gain.
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I didn't want to link to the entire series, but RWBY does a great job of integrating superhuman feats into a distinctly martial context, and has a very fluid, active combat style that emphasizes movement and positioning.
Which, y'know, PF kinda doesn't do very well.
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What other mythic spells and abilities for casters have caused you that much of a problem?I would guess the ability, given out at Tier 1, to cast any spell off your list regardless of whether or not you know the spell for the low low cost of a single mythic point. It is pretty much better than any ability available to any of the martial paths and just keeps getting better as you go up in level....
Caster cast more. Oh no! Not a significant power increase.
I'm pretty sure that paragon surge on crack represents a significant power increase.
I'm pretty sure that paragon surge on crack represents a significant power increase.What other mythic spells and abilities for casters have caused you that much of a problem?I would guess the ability, given out at Tier 1, to cast any spell off your list regardless of whether or not you know the spell for the low low cost of a single mythic point. It is pretty much better than any ability available to any of the martial paths and just keeps getting better as you go up in level....
Caster cast more. Oh no! Not a significant power increase.
Exactly. It's only slightly better than what they could do without mythics.
Exactly. It's only slightly better than what they could do without mythics.I'm pretty sure that paragon surge on crack represents a significant power increase.What other mythic spells and abilities for casters have caused you that much of a problem?I would guess the ability, given out at Tier 1, to cast any spell off your list regardless of whether or not you know the spell for the low low cost of a single mythic point. It is pretty much better than any ability available to any of the martial paths and just keeps getting better as you go up in level....
Caster cast more. Oh no! Not a significant power increase.
There's quite a lot of difference between "easy access to any spell on their spell list" and "be a specific combination of class and race, spend one round and a 3rd level spell slot to gain access to any spell on their spell list for some duration".
Not saying paragon surge isn't crazy broken, but it has some pretty specific prerequisites that the mythic power doesn't have (such as, you can't be a wizard).
Not saying paragon surge isn't crazy broken, but it has some pretty specific prerequisites that the mythic power doesn't have (such as, you can't be a wizard).Nah, you can get in on the Paragon Surge crack pipe with the Wizard, Cleric or other prepared caster as well. It's easy:
Step 1: Know the Feat Heighten Spell
Step 2: Be a Half Elf or Human with Racial Heritage (note human version does not work in PFS)
Step 3: Cast Paragon Surge selecting the Preferred Spell feat
Step 4: Cast your new preferred spell as much as you want, spontaneously, and with the ability to add metamagic to it.
Step 5: Cackle madly
Step 6: Profit!
That's completely up to GM fiat though. Preferred Spell requires you to select a spell "you have the ability to cast". What constitutes "ability to cast" isn't defined in the rules and is subject to table variation. One GM might say anything on your spell list is fine, another might say only a spell you could actually cast at the moment of taking the feat (that is, a spell currently prepared or that you have an an SLA) Yeah, that might be somewhat sidestepped through having a bonded item you haven't used for the day, but that's another (risky) investment and still only allows spell you have in your spellbook.
The actual spell isn't the problem, specifically, but what it represents: simply that Mythic came along and got Martials to be closer to where I wanted them, but then turned Casters up to 11, when they already curb-stomp non-casters, to the point that I can't use mythic rules without serious house-ruling.That spell DOES require being tier 10 and using at least 2-3 points of mythic power. You also can't rest to regain anything in it. Just saying, it's not going to break the majority of mythic games.Yeah... that's honestly what made me go from really liking to really disliking Mythic rules in a short span of time. Mythic solved my issues with Martial characters very well, especially with Paths like the Guardian and Marshal, which allowed martial characters to do things that I couldn't get without going back to 4e (I'm not as down on that system as most people, but still, I'd prefer pathfinder) or a Point Buy universal system (which would be my go-to response, but it's almost impossible to get people to play HERO for fantasy, because invariably the group just looks kind of befuddled and goes "What? I don't know that system; why not just play D&D/PF?"), but it went too far in several areas, Magic being one of them.This is why I always liked the Mythic rules. Martials (or anyone, really) can jump miles in the air, carry thousands of tons or more, create shockwaves from melee attacks that shatter the ground from under, can knock opponents up to 100 feet away in a single melee attack, and other cool things that's not on the top of my head, right now.Like stopping time for about a day?
So you really wanted/expected them to print a book about bringing new powerful "mythic" into the game and give spellcasters nothing?
That book was "the book of mythic martials" it was "Mythic Adventures" . . . of course there had to be options for spellcasters included.
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That book was "the book of mythic martials" it was "Mythic Adventures" . . . of course there had to be options for spellcasters included.
Honestly, about half of the CRB spells should have been mythic by themselves.
But when a book like Ultimate Combat adds 50 pages of spells and only 13 pages of feats, what should one expect?
That book was "the book of mythic martials" it was "Mythic Adventures" . . . of course there had to be options for spellcasters included.Honestly, about half of the CRB spells should have been mythic by themselves.
But when a book like Ultimate Combat adds 50 pages of spells and only 13 pages of feats, what should one expect?
To be fair its 48 pages of new feats (page 76-124) and 42 pages of spells (p208-250). . .
To be fair its 48 pages of new feats (page 76-124) and 42 pages of spells (p208-250). . .That book was "the book of mythic martials" it was "Mythic Adventures" . . . of course there had to be options for spellcasters included.Honestly, about half of the CRB spells should have been mythic by themselves.
But when a book like Ultimate Combat adds 50 pages of spells and only 13 pages of feats, what should one expect?
Oh, sorry, read completely wrong. My fault. Still, I'd have preferred like 2 pages of spells in that book, and all of them restricted to the full-bab casters.
Oh, sorry, read completely wrong. My fault. Still, I'd have preferred like 2 pages of spells in that book, and all of them restricted to the full-bab casters.To be fair its 48 pages of new feats (page 76-124) and 42 pages of spells (p208-250). . .That book was "the book of mythic martials" it was "Mythic Adventures" . . . of course there had to be options for spellcasters included.Honestly, about half of the CRB spells should have been mythic by themselves.
But when a book like Ultimate Combat adds 50 pages of spells and only 13 pages of feats, what should one expect?
And I would have preferred not to have page counts in ultimate magic devoted to Ranger Traps and Monk vows. . . but that's not how Paizo does things; they like to put something for everyone into every book so Ultimate Combat isn't labelled "Fighters only" and anyone who prefers casters just ignore it, or vice versa.
I'm sure spells like fabricate bullets are really powering up casters too. . . honestly most of the UC spells are buffs of some variety, or affect/create weapons, almost all are most useful by Magus/other gish types, or for the wizard to cast on the stuff of the martial
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Yes, buffs. Which specifically by Paizo are meant to make the Cleric as good at fighting as the Fighter.
Because "It's Ultimate Combat, it's supposed to make everyone good at combat".
Paraphrased, of course, but they actually commented on this a while back.
Martials can have nice things sometimes, but on such occasions casters need to get things that are just as nice (if not more so) at the same time, but if casters get nice things martials don't need to be treated the same courtesy: The design philosophy of Pathfinder.
I didn't read the entire topic, but based on the opening post and title, here's my opinion:
(Monks)
- should have a much bigger Ki Pool, like double the amount
- should have Ki Weapon as defauts to make them efficient weapon users
- should be able to use their enhancement speed better
- should be able to bypass more damage reduction
(Fighters)
- should get an archetype for free without trading abilities
- should get Tome of Battle's maneuvers, no seriously, it should
(Gunslingers)
- should get 1 grit point per 2 levels plus its Wisdom modifier
(Magi)
- should get spells ranging from 1st to 9th level... compressed as a 6-level list. Debatable, but it still sucks that the Magus can't access higher level spells.
I didn't read the entire topic, but based on the opening post and title, here's my opinion:
(Monks)
- should have a much bigger Ki Pool, like double the amount
- should have Ki Weapon as defauts to make them efficient weapon users
- should be able to use their enhancement speed better
- should be able to bypass more damage reduction(Fighters)
- should get an archetype for free without trading abilities
- should get Tome of Battle's maneuvers, no seriously, it should(Gunslingers)
- should get 1 grit point per 2 levels plus its Wisdom modifier(Magi)
- should get spells ranging from 1st to 9th level... compressed as a 6-level list. Debatable, but it still sucks that the Magus can't access higher level spells.
The only thing about the monk I don't necessarily agree with is the ki pool adjustment. Numerous items and two different, compatible archetypes allow for the monk to regain ki points throughout the day already. It's the base features of the monk, like Diamond Soul or Stunning Fist, that need adjustments.
HIGHLY agree on maneuvers, more classes should get something like that, they're neat. It would give the fighter something to do that makes them look like more than just 'warrior+'.
Gunslingers and magi don't need any help. The former already can regain their grit throughout the day and the latter can toss out highly damaging spells in the middle of a full-attack.
I can outshoot any 3.X first level martial character against a stationary or mostly stationary target.)
no lol
(Fighters)
- should get an archetype for free without trading abilities
- should get Tome of Battle's maneuvers, no seriously, it should
But can't Fighters get them through feats already?
Or do you mean an Archetype that grants a maneuver progression?
(Fighters)
- should get an archetype for free without trading abilities
- should get Tome of Battle's maneuvers, no seriously, it should
But can't Fighters get them through feats already?
Or do you mean an Archetype that grants a maneuver progression?
Basically, fighters should choose ONE archetype at 1st level... WITHOUT trading anything.
What's the point of trading weapon training, armor training and bravery, when the archetypes are supposed to COMPLEMENT these class features?
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One simple fix would be for easier called shots. When i think of legendary fighters(or similarly themed martials) doing stuff it seems well within the realm of thematic possibility that a skilled fighter should be able to easily hamstring the giant and bring him to his knees (literally). This would give them more versatility while preserving a unique identity. Yea the wizard or sorcerer might deal a ton of damage with their fireball, but the fighter can puncture the dragons wings or chop off the driders legs etc.