No what makes the disparity clear is that merely owning a dead magic plane is not going to help the martial in the slightest.Meh, if I were a fighter with something to guard, hide or otherwise protect, I think I'd take my chances inside the demiplane. It may not be perfectly safe, but consider the alternative.
I hope you don't plan to do anything else with your life besides guarding that.
I say that, because it's terribly hard to cast Planeshift inside a dead magic demiplane, so once you got there, you can't get back.
He could have an active Portal planar trait, but this makes him very vulnerable.
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Well... maybe we can get some solid ideas here to help martials be better so that the odds aren't so overwhelming. The issue is not really combat (only a little bit due to the Fighters forced move-attack issue, other martials like the Barbarian are over this), but really narrative power and versatility. Some significant improvements to both would help considerably.
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@ Gustavo, wwww: Yeah, if only you could add a permanent planar portal to your demiplane which would allow for travel. It would be even better if it said so in the spell description.
Regarding planar binding, animated objects (iffy whether these would work in the land that magic forgot, but I'd grant Golems at any rate) an undead... well, I think there are definite practicality concerns, but grant that this seems like a reasonable strategy to beat the martial in the dead magic demiplane. Still, it feels a lot like beating a martial with a better martial, but I'll also grant that it's a bit different since a caster gets these things in a way that's uniquely different than a martial could.
So, the conclusion is that casters are, indeed, better than martials; they have absolutely no defense, short of having the wizard add the dead magic trait before the portal, followed by murdering the wizard. And that's sort of a hollow victory.
As you have said yourself, making the plane accesible is absurd. An army of golems will eat the fighter. And not because the golems are better than the fighter, they are not. It's because anti-magic fields and dead-magic zones hurt martial classes as much as they hurt wizards. The golems beat the fighter because he's in a dead magic demiplane.
That's not counting the fact the wizard could seal the portal from the other side, with lots of different permanent walls, which the fighter won't probably be able to break from the other side because he is in a dead magic zone. Being permanently trapped in a prison count as victory?
2. Feats stacked and were usable with most everything. Vital Strike with Spring Attack for example...
I don't really want this. Feats that stack tends to lead to cookie-cutter builds and even more specialization, rather than broadening. Also, it essentially often becomes new feat chains even if they're not officially one. I'd much rather see feats that are good on their own, and don't _need_ to stack to be useful (much how like spells mostly don't stack yet are useful)
5.??? Got anything to add here?
Honestly, apart from skill points those are all combat solutions and I don't think the martials issue is in combat. And the issue with skills is more that skills suck than anything else. At even mid levels, most skills are surpassed by readily available low level magic. A maxed stealth is just a bonus to the primarily magic act of sneaking (through invisibility etc). Climb is made irrelevant by spider climb and fly. Etc. A few skills are always good; perception and acrobatics for example, but those are the exception.
So, more skills, and the skills need to do more stuff and not be confined to "like reality but more". Have 10 ranks in climb? You should have climb speed 10ft at least.
I want martial characters of heroic levels, say about 7-12, to be able to bend the rules of reality through sheer awesomeness. The barbarian is a fine example of this, being able to rip apart magic with her might (though I wish she had more similar stuff). The monk is a good example of this _in theory_, but is far too bad at it. I want them to be able to be Cu Chulainn and Hercules.
At the demigod levels of 13+, I want martials to simply transcend from what would be considered mundane, and have powers similar to the divine and semidivine beings of mythology; stuff like seven league strides, jumping into other planes of existance, striking down mountains and castles with their swords. Things that are obviously supernatural and mythical, but not overly spell-like.
The difference for me is martials do what martials are supposed to do. A pure fighter is a master at weapons. Does the fighter accomplish this type of character? Yes, it does.The issue is that that isn't a 20 level concept. It's more like a 7 level concept. If you want a 20 level "master at weapons" it needs to be able to do stuff like shoot an arrow that breaches the barriers between planes to strike a demon lord in her castle.
Martials are supposed to hit stuff. Every time I've seen martials do something in stories, it is with weapons, mundane fighting techniques, or magic items. They have this in abundance.Oh. I've seen martials in stories catch a hind so fast it outruns an arrow and rerouting two major rivers in a single day in order to clean a divine stable. Even the ancient greeks had that kind of stories.
The fantasy books I've ready fit fine with the Pathfinder game.Can you give any examples in which the martials are like pathfinder martials and the spellcasters are like pathfinder spellcasters, and the world is NOT exclusively ruled by spellcasters?
I see more of the problems with the high level game having to do with encounter design rather than the caster/martial disparity. I design with the story in mind. I design encounters to make my players feel heroic. The reality is even the wizard is weak if I design encounters to make him so. Why would it be any different for martials? You design an encounter with the idea of fighting a party, not this encounter where the wizard shows up and ends the encounter.The issue is that challenging the caster is a much larger work than challenging the martial, in the mechanical system we have. Yeah, you can implement soft house rules and it can work better but that doesn't say much about the system as such.
But it's not so much that casters can end encounters in a single round (though that is also an issue) but that they can simply bypass encounters unless the...
Lvl 7 concept? That is purely your opinion.
Why does a fighter need to fire an arrow that breaches a barrier between planes? A wizard can't do that with his best spell unless he pays 25,000 gold. And even then it is up to the DM.
I don't want anime/video game martials myself. I want Launcelot type of martials at level 20. That's what he was: a lvl 20 cavalier/fighter, not lvl 7. Unmatched on the battlefield against other martials, but wizards are a problem unless they have a swords like Excalibur or something similar.
I don't look at characters as having to be equal in power. I look at them as elements in a story. I hope Pathfinder never decides to move martials into the anime/video game category. I want them to keep them like martials would be: highly skilled, high level physical combatants that can go toe to toe with a demon lord, but don't have a bunch of magical powers to do so.
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This is fundamental difference between the camps. It isn't martial vs. caster.
It's Video Game/Anime Martial vs. Classic Story Martials.
The first camp wants martials to become like mythical demigods like Hercules, superheroes, or anime characters.
The second camp wants Launcelot, King Arthur, Aragorn, and Conan.
The first camp tells the second camp that those characters are low level concepts.
The second camp isn't buying that. Launcelot, Aragorn, King Arthur, and Conan were lvl 15 to 20 characters. Their abilities were founded in skill with weapons and knowledge, not magical anime/video game like powers. If we were to make high level martials with anime/video game powers, then we lose the highly skilled archetype who relies on nothing but his skill and ability with weapons. I don't want to lose that archetype because it is classic fantasy. It isn't limited to low level concepts like those in the first camp believe.
I know there are generational differences. The generation raised on video games/anime may one day decide things. I grew up reading Arthurian Legend, Lord of the Rings, Conan, and the like. That is my preference for certain martial archetypes like fighters, cavaliers, and the other mundane classes.
I like that fact Paizo builds fantasy archetypes rather than a one sized fits all. None of this "If the wizard can do this, then the fighter should have some way to do that as well". I prefer the feel right now where Paizo goes "This is a fantasy archetype you find in stories, what would it be able to do in the Pathfinder world". I hope they stick to that.
2. Feats stacked and were usable with most everything. Vital Strike with Spring Attack for example...
I don't really want this. Feats that stack tends to lead to cookie-cutter builds and even more specialization, rather than broadening. Also, it essentially often becomes new feat chains even if they're not officially one. I'd much rather see feats that are good on their own, and don't _need_ to stack to be useful (much how like spells mostly don't stack yet are useful)
5.??? Got anything to add here?Honestly, apart from skill points those are all combat solutions and I don't think the martials issue is in combat. And the issue with skills is more that skills suck than anything else. At even mid levels, most skills are surpassed by readily available low level magic. A maxed stealth is just a bonus to the primarily magic act of sneaking (through invisibility etc). Climb is made irrelevant by spider climb and fly. Etc. A few skills are always good; perception and acrobatics for example, but those are the exception.
So, more skills, and the skills need to do more stuff and not be confined to "like reality but more". Have 10 ranks in climb? You should have climb speed 10ft at least.
I want martial characters of heroic levels, say about 7-12, to be able to bend the rules of reality through sheer awesomeness. The barbarian is a fine example of this, being able to rip apart magic with her might (though I wish she had more similar stuff). The monk is a good example of this _in theory_, but is far too bad at it. I want them to be able to be Cu Chulainn and Hercules.
At the demigod levels of 13+, I want martials to simply transcend from what would be considered mundane, and have powers similar to the divine and semidivine beings of mythology; stuff like seven league strides, jumping into other planes of existance, striking down mountains and castles with their swords. Things that are obviously supernatural and mythical, but not overly spell-like.
I don't want this in core at all.
I don't mind an extra book like Mythic Adventures to add options like this for players like yourself. I do not want the standard game to have martials as demigods or legendary heroes favored by the gods. It was the gods who gave those characters their powers, not their innate martial abilities.
Becoming a demigods or favored by the gods should not be the standard martial template.
Well... maybe we can get some solid ideas here to help martials be better so that the odds aren't so overwhelming. The issue is not really combat (only a little bit due to the Fighters forced move-attack issue, other martials like the Barbarian are over this), but really narrative power and versatility. Some significant improvements to both would help considerably.
This I wouldn't mind.
Let's say you make an ability called "Tactical Supremacy" as a fighter ability. The guy can gain advantages alike to a Foresight spell or something similar. These kinds of changes I would like to see. Higher end combat skills that still fit what you might expect from a high level mundane warrior of great skill.
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This is fundamental difference between the camps. It isn't martial vs. caster.
It's Video Game/Anime Martial vs. Classic Story Martials.
The first camp wants martials to become like mythical demigods like Hercules, superheroes, or anime characters.
The second camp wants Launcelot, King Arthur, Aragorn, and Conan.
The first camp tells the second camp that those characters are low level concepts.
The second camp isn't buying that. Launcelot, Aragorn, King Arthur, and Conan were lvl 15 to 20 characters. Their abilities were founded in skill with weapons and knowledge, not magical anime/video game like powers. If we were to make high level martials with anime/video game powers, then we lose the highly skilled archetype who relies on nothing but his skill and ability with weapons. I don't want to lose that archetype because it is classic fantasy. It isn't limited to low level concepts like those in the first camp believe.
I know there are generational differences. The generation raised on video games/anime may one day decide things. I grew up reading Arthurian Legend, Lord of the Rings, Conan, and the like. That is my preference for certain martial archetypes like fighters, cavaliers, and the other mundane classes.
I like that fact Paizo builds fantasy archetypes rather than a one sized fits all. None of this "If the wizard can do this, then the fighter should have some way to do that as well". I prefer the feel right now where Paizo goes "This is a fantasy archetype you find in stories, what would it be able to do in the Pathfinder world". I hope they stick to that.
I'm sorry, but when the Greek gods are clocking in at level 10-12, you can't say that Arthurian legend, Lord of the Rings and Conan are clocking at 15-20. I mean you can believe that if you want, it just doesn't compare well with what the system models. Name one time Conan dunked himself in lava without magical protection and survived for example. He'd only need to be level 8 to do that. I'm sorry but "Their skilled with weapons" doesn't make them level 15-20, it makes then level 6 in a world where most people are lucky to hit 3 and only the villains make it to 10.
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This is fundamental difference between the camps. It isn't martial vs. caster.
It's Video Game/Anime Martial vs. Classic Story Martials.
I'm not sure I understand your point. If it's that it's the video game/anime guys clamoring for martial improvements whereas classic story guys are content, that's clearly BS... but perhaps not?
If it's that the video game/anime guys agree with the story guys that improvements are needed, but disagree about what type of improvements...
*big shrug*
Put them both in. Golarion is frickin' huge already in terms of the multitude of tropes it draws from. It has plenty of room for both.
I mean, it already has room for Viking raiders and crashed spaceships in the same setting. Why not?
Then the people who have a strong preference for one type of ability but not the other can choose from the abilities of one type, and avoid the ones of the other.
(Not, by the way, that they seem to be that different. I don't watch anime and I've never owned a console in my life, but it seems obvious, from the examples given here, that many of the martial tropes some people are branding with the anime/video game mark of shame have been in rotation in classic stories, East and West, for thousands of years.)
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It seems like many people agree that narrative power is where martials are hurting. This is my work on the subject, abilities meant to give narrative power while minimally affecting current balance within combat. I actually run these in my games, so I'd appreciate any feedback. I also welcome any concepts for new abilities to add to the list.
It's a miracle some amount of agreement on this point has been reached, but for anything productive to result actual ideas are needed.
You can get extraordinary flight by being a race that gets wings, or having a flying mount. I think Barbs can get it as a rage power, but it might be SU.
A melee with an adamantine sword in an AMF isn't going to have much of a problem with a golem, barbs esp.
==Aelryinth
You can get extraordinary flight by being a race that gets wings, or having a flying mount. I think Barbs can get it as a rage power, but it might be SU.
That really helps out human fighters.
Well, again... even a special mount is going to go down like a chump against Conjurations. And even if the Fighter is a Strix, they are still going to have get past the casters summons/animated/calls minions.
Undead won't be that much of a problem, as all their dangerous stuff that drains gets annulled by the AMF. So does Supernatural DR. Summoned creatures can't get into an AMF, you'd need called creatures...which would also lose all their magical abilities and be reduced to just combat stats (which, if you're a marilith, is a good thing).
And I'm not defending the disparity, I'm just saying something is possible. Conjuration offensive spells able to bypass AMF's and SR are pet peeves of mine too, doncha know.
==Aelryinth
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That is not not a flaw in my premise. A party of 4 10th level wizards is going to steamroll a team of 4 fighters, or 4 rogues. It's not about fighting against each other its about fighting period. The sum of 4 Wizards is greater then the sum of 4 fighters, or of 2 fighters and 2 wizards, or then a fighters, a rogue, a wizard and, cleric. And that's because Fighters only have one purpose... to fight and deal damage. And guess what... *any* class can do that. Wizards just happen to be able to do that and a ton of other things, most of which a Fighter literally can't do anything about without having access to spells. Because of this a CR 10 is not a CR 10. I would much rather fight a level 15 Fighter then a level 11 Wizard... and that's the problem.
So Captain America, Hawkeye, the Black Knight and the Black Panther couldn't take out 4 enemy spellcasters?
Hmm.
Have to think about that. The comics certainly make it seem like they'd steamroll them.
==Aelryinth
So Captain America, Hawkeye, the Black Knight and the Black Panther couldn't take out 4 enemy spellcasters?
Hmm.
Have to think about that. The comics certainly make it seem like they'd steamroll them.
They couldn't even handle one bard (Loki) by themselves.
LOL, Loki is the Norse God of Trickery, and he's been flamboozled by those 4 before. And in the comics he's a very powerful sorcerer, not a bard. Loki had best be especially cautious around the Panther, who has contingencies for dealing with Galactus, let alone Thor's snotty little brother.
==Aelryinth
So Captain America, Hawkeye, the Black Knight and the Black Panther couldn't take out 4 enemy spellcasters?
Hmm.
Have to think about that. The comics certainly make it seem like they'd steamroll them.
==Aelryinth
Deus Ex Machina is strong with these comic heros...
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Oh, that's right. Martials are actually capable in the comics. I forget sometimes.
Carry on!
==Aelryinth
Egad. All the component hunters keeping those spell component cases stocked would have to find new jobs!
==Aelryinth
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This is fundamental difference between the camps. It isn't martial vs. caster.
It's Video Game/Anime Martial vs. Classic Story Martials.
I know you need to make the comparison with Video Game/anime to make your argument look good, but that's absolutely false.
It's Epic Classic Martials vs Tolkien Martials.
It's Boromir, who died fighting a bunch of level 1 orcs, versus Achilles, whose anger could stop a flooding river. It's Beowulf, who fought 1 week under sea with a Sea Serpent. It's Cu-Chulain who raged into a giant monster that destroyed armies, Gilgamesh who seduced a goddess and defeated Death, Hercules, strong enough to split Africa from Europe. It's David, who killed a giant with a single sling shot. Samson , who defeated an entire army with an improvised weapon made of the jawbone of a donkey. It's Sigurd, who defeated a dragon and became invulnerable. Did you mention Arthurian legends? Sure. It's Sir Cai, who:
"nine nights and nine days his breath lasted under water, nine nights and nine days would he be without sleep. A wound from Cai's sword no physician might heal. When it pleased him, he would be as tall as the tallest tree in the forest. When the rain was heaviest, whatever he held in his hand would be dry for a handbreadth before and behind, because of the greatness of his heat, and, when his companions were coldest, he would be as fuel for them to light a fire". Yes, Arthurian Legends would do it for me too.
The first camp tells the second camp that those characters are low level concepts.The second camp isn't buying that. Launcelot, Aragorn, King Arthur, and Conan were lvl 15 to 20 characters. Their abilities were founded in skill with weapons and knowledge, not magical anime/video game like powers. If we were to make high level martials with anime/video game powers, then we lose the highly skilled archetype who relies on nothing but his skill and ability with weapons. I don't want to lose that archetype because it is classic fantasy. It isn't limited to low level concepts like those in the first camp believe.
Those ARE low level concepts, from a D&D/pathfinder point of view.
A 20th level D&D/pathfinder fighter can wrestle with a dinosaur, naked and win. Aragorn can't do that. A 20th level D&D fighter can fall from the Niagara's Falls, and do not die. Aragorn would die. A 20th lvl fighter can drink regular poisons, such as arsenic, with no chance to get poisoned except with a 1 in 1d20 roll.(Fortitude save 12+Con. Not counting magic items, a 20th level fighter NAKED has a +14 or so save, +16 with Great Fortitude Feat. That makes him to bypass any natural world poison, such as hemlock -DC16-, Belladona -DC14- , Arsenic -DC13- or black adder -DC 11- with any 2+ roll) Aragorn can't do that.A 20th lvl fighter is fighting BALROGS (or the Pathfinder equivalent, the Balor). Aragorn *struggle* to fight CR6 cave trolls, CR5 Shelob, CR3 barrow-wights and CR 5 Nazguls. He is decently challenged by any orc that rides a CR 3 dire wolf. That's the level of his foes. He's not able to even dream to defeat a CR 20 Balor, a CR 20 dragon like Smaug, or a CR 20 Sorcerer like Sauron. He wouldn't even be a match for a CR 8 Treant, for God's sake!
If Aragorn were a 20th lvl fighter, he could ignore normal, non-supernatural poisons without any danger. He could survive falling from the White Tower of Gondor. He would be able to wrestle a troll even with a hand tied to his back (CMB 20+STR bonus. LOL at the Troll's CMD of 22, even with -4 for only having 1 free hand). He is not able to do any of that because he is not level 20
I know there are generational differences. The generation raised on video games/anime may one day decide things. I grew up reading Arthurian Legend, Lord of the Rings, Conan, and the like. That is my preference for certain martial archetypes like fighters, cavaliers, and the other mundane classes.
Again, I know you need to make this argument to be derisive toward the other camp, but I'm 38 years old. I grow up reading lord of the rings, but also the Illyad. Maybe you should try to broaden the kind of books you read.
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It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
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It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
What do you mean by strictly martial?
Falling is not magical. Surviving a poison is not magical. Wrestling is pure martial too. And this is a 20th lvl fighter, with NO magic items, in Pathfinder:
STR: 15 +2 racial (human)+ 3 leveling up= 20
DEX: 13 +1 Leveling up=14
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
Let's take Great Fortitude, and weapon training Close Combat as his 2nd best weapon training.
Fortitude: 12 + 2 CON + 2 feat = 16
CMB= 20 +5 str +3 Weapon training= 28
HP = 10 (first level) + 95 (5x19) + 40 (CON) +20 (favored class)= 165 hp.
That means this character can eat cicuta (hemlock) and not be even sick for it, 95% of the time (DC 18, makes it with 2+). He can fall from the top of the highest tower in the world, with no chance to die (20d6 damage, max 120). And he can wrestle a 6000 pounds wolly rhinoceros (CMD=26) with a hand tied to his back (-4 to grapple, makes it with 2+), or trip it (CMD 30 to trip).
No spell-like ability used, no magical item involved, pure martial. In current Pathfinder, no mythic rules added or 3pp product needed, just core rulebook.
Is that something you'll read about Aragorn, without breaking your suspension of disbelief? I won't. But... would you read it about Beowulf? Sure. The guy who killed Grendel's son barehanded? That guy can trip a rhino, yes. The guy who fought 1 week in the deep sea? Yeah, cicuta isn't going to kill him.
Why? Because of LEVEL. Boromir and Aragorn are Level 4 characters, fighting level 4 enemies (like wights, dire wolves, masses of orcs and young-templated rock trolls), and facing level 4 challenges (like travelling in wilderness). If you insist to keep every martial ability tied to Aragorn's level of skill, you insist to keep martials bound to under-level-6 prowess. Beyond level 6 the game isn't "realist" anymore. Beyond level 10, fighters survive being *chewed* by tyranosaurus rex and being *crushed* by 20ton dragons who land on top of him. High level martials aren't magic, but they aren't bound by reality anymore. Suggesting they do, is just closing the eyes to the huge, pink, saxophon-playing elephant in the room.
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This is fundamental difference between the camps. It isn't martial vs. caster.
It's Video Game/Anime Martial vs. Classic Story Martials.
The first camp wants martials to become like mythical demigods like Hercules, superheroes, or anime characters.
The second camp wants Lancelot, King Arthur, Aragorn, and Conan.
.
.
.
I know there are generational differences. The generation raised on video games/anime may one day decide things. I grew up reading Arthurian Legend, Lord of the Rings, Conan, and the like. That is my preference for certain martial archetypes like fighters, cavaliers, and the other mundane classes.
Raith, the generational difference is you want 20th century heroes like Aragorn and Conan, while others want legendary heroes from the other 5,000 years of human history.
Gustavo Inglasias gives a good example of how Arthurian characters are actually superhuman, but you're unfamiliar with the actual stories and instead mistake 20th century hollywood interpretations for what the actual legends had in them. Raith, you are obsessing over 20th century desires for 'realism' to constrain their heroes, its blinding you to what older heroes that our ancestors wrote about were capable of. Please stop mixing Die Hard into real Arthurian legend and acknowledge that John McClane is at best 6th level, not 20th.
Let the realm of lvl 10+ and beyond be true to the legends of our ancestors, where men accomplished superhuman feats that Hollywood producers would scoff as 'unrealistic'.
If you want your 20th century Hollywood Lancelot, play at 7th level. If you want real Arthurian legend, you need heroes that can match those capabilities.
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It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
What do you mean by strictly martial?
Anything a normal person in our world might have trouble doing, such as punching people and turning them into stone, hitting the ground hard enough so that nearby enemies fall down and/or turning the area into difficult terrain because you punched it so hard = That must be magic so martials should not be able to do it to some people.
And saying play E6 or E8 is not what most people want to hear, and it wont help both sides resolve their differences in versimilitude.
I am all for extraordinary things, but as the game is now, the modular/optional approach is the best way to do it in order to satisfy both sides.
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It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
What do you mean by strictly martial?
Anything a normal person in our world might have trouble doing, such as punching people and turning them into stone, hitting the ground hard enough so that nearby enemies fall down and/or turning the area into difficult terrain because you punched it so hard = That must be magic so martials should not be able to do it to some people.
Turning people into stone, yes, that's magic. Producing small terrain with a direct hit, I'm not so sure.
How is that level of strength much more different than, say, wrestling a 3 ton prehistorical rhinoceros with a hand tied to your back, which is something that fighters do, without any help from magic, in the current incarnation of the rules?
I am all for extraordinary things, but as the game is now, the modular/optional approach is the best way to do it in order to satisfy both sides.
I'm all for it, but I'd like it in a book specifically targeted to martials. Mythic does not close the gap, because it gives martials some epic things, but it gives casters the mythic spells as well. A Tome of Battle / Book of 9 swords *might* help, but I don't want *different* classes to have those abilities. I want *current* martials to be able to do so. Making it optional is fine for me. Call it "the book of fighters for players who want to roleplay Beowulf instead of Boromir", and I'll preorder it right now.
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Here's an example of "Fighters from history & legend" that Gary Gygax made:
Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristan, and Sinbad. El Cid, Hannibal, Alexander the Great, Charlemagne, Spartacus, Richard the Lionheart, and Belisarius.
Here's some of the feats accomplished by characters from the stories those names are from:
-Strong enough to hold up the weight of the world
-Strong enough to tear monsters limb from limb
-Strong enough to hurl an apple hard enough to go through a shield and knock a guy's brains out from his skull
-Strong enough to bury a guy into the ground with a single piledriver
-Able to walk to Hell, then leave.
-Able to punch/wrestle ghosts
-Able to jump 20ft right into the air
-Trained in super secret fighting techniques to unleash devastating killing blows, like doing a somersault to hurl a spear and kill their target instantly
-Able to warp into a raging shapeless monster that can destroy armies
-Fighting in wars since age 7
-Being so incredibly androgynously good lookimg that great bearded kings feared their queens would leave for them.
-Incredibly charismatic leaders that can form world conquering armies and lead them to the ends of the earth
-Able to shape broken slaves into elite warriors with only a few training sessions
-Able to shatter boulders with a single blow
-Able to hold their breath for hours, days, weeks while fighting
-Able to forge magical arms, armor, rings because they're just that good at smithing and/or have magical materials to work with
-Bathe in dragon's blood and become invulnerable
-Able to jump off of multiple spears thrown at them in mid flight like stepping stones to go kill the spear throwers without touching the ground.
-Able to run up a vertical surface like a spear shaft, and stand on top of its point
-When enraged, hair spikes up on end and generate an aura of fire that will cause water to boil on contact
-Be born with multicolored hair/eyes
It's a shame that if I described these powers to some Pathfinder players, they would scoff "ANIME powers?? I don't want that in my European fantasy setting! Now here's my fighter based off of Jaime Lannister..." :p
The problem here really is with scaling. Lunge should scale with levels. Whirlwind attack should go from full round to standard to attack action. You should at first just trip, then trip so they fall on their head (stun?) and then so hard they fall on their head and get buried half way into the ground.
Main problem with Whirlwind, like many other fighter feats, it's the prereq, which are purely feat taxes.
Mobility and Spring attack aren't useful with Whirlwind, because it's a full round action. If you want to play a character who whirlwinds, you have to pay those feats, purely as a feat tax. Same goes with, say, Combat Expertise and Trip. Using Combat expertise *hurt* your chances to trip someone, so it's probable that you don't want to use it when you trip. It also makes you to spend points in Intelligence, even if you don't want. I wonder why wizards don't get their STR bonus as AC when they cast Mage's Armor for example. Or why they don't have STR 13 as a prereq for Empower spell or Maximize spell.
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-He is Strong enough to hold up the weight of the world
-He is Strong enough to tear monsters limb from limb
-He is Strong enough to hurl an apple hard enough to go through a shield and knock a guy's brains out from his skull
-He is Strong enough to bury a guy into the ground with a single piledriver
-He is Able to walk to Hell, then leave.
-He is Able to punch/wrestle ghosts
-He is Able to jump 20ft right into the air
-He is Trained in super secret fighting techniques to unleash devastating killing blows, like doing a somersault to hurl a spear and kill their target instantly
-He is Able to warp into a raging shapeless monster that can destroy armies
-He was Fighting in wars since age 7
-He is so incredibly androgynously good lookimg that great bearded kings feared their queens would leave for them.
-He is an Incredibly charismatic aleader that can form world conquering armies and lead them to the ends of the earth
-He is Able to shape broken slaves into elite warriors with only a few training sessions
-He is Able to shatter boulders with a single blow
-He is Able to hold their breath for hours, days, weeks while fighting
-He is Able to forge magical arms, armor, rings because they're just that good at smithing and/or have magical materials to work with
-He is Bathe in dragon's blood and become invulnerable
-He is Able to jump off of multiple spears thrown at them in mid flight like stepping stones to go kill the spear throwers without touching the ground.
-He is Able to run up a vertical surface like a spear shaft, and stand on top of its point
-He is When enraged, hair spikes up on end and generate an aura of fire that will cause water to boil on contact
-He was born with multicolored hair/eyes
He is... the most interesting man in the world.
Stay nerdy my friends
Yeah, okay, feat taxes and requirements being stupid are also a problem, but I think scaling is a bigger one.
I think Whirlwind scales just fine. If you could take it without prereqs, at level 1 you'll be doing like 2d6+6 to everything in 5'. At level 10 you'll be doing something like 2d6+20 to everything in 10'. I'm ok with that.
But I'm never going to use it, because it needs 6 zillion stupid requisites who aren't useful for that kind of character. Make it free to take, and it'll be much more interesting
It's a full round action. When the alternative is to full attack, you have to basically engineer situations where it's useful (unless you are a fighter and take it at like level 3 or something, where hordes of goblins is still a thing).
There's also the fact that spreading damage to multiple targets is way worse than focusing it on a single target.
Say you are lvl11 fighting three whatevers. A full attack would kill one, and reduce the threat by 1/3rd (when you get full attacked back, because you were stupid enough to go into melee). A whirlwind attack will take off 1/3rd of the HP off of each. That is assuming all of them decide to stay in your range and you can even land a whirlwind of course.
Sure, full attack is always a good option. However, fighting 3 whatevers, with whirlwind you get 3 attacks at your best BAB. With a regular full attack, you get a second attack at -5 and a third attack at -10. Depending on whatever's AC, that's clearly an issue. Also, you can use Whirlwind to do stuff beyond hitting people. A whirlwind trip or a whirlwind disarm is nice. Specially if you can get extra AOO from those.