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"The barbarian can make an attack of opportunity against a foe that moves into any square threatened by the barbarian"
But this isnt like the normal AoO for moving out of a threatened square, as this happens when you enter it. the rules state you only provoke once from the same creature for moving out of a threatened square.
from my opinion it would work.
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Its definitely cheesy. As a GM I would probably rule against the two attacks as I believe the intent for the rage power was to allow the Barbarian an attack when it otherwise wouldn't get the attack, not to allow for extra attacks.
Then again, I generally don't allow barbarians in my games, because I've never met a person that doesn't munchkin the crap out of them and dig for the most ridiculous corner case cheese they can find. Also they don't really belong in any kind of civilized group. (Sometimes Salvatore really causes troubles...)
The only issue I have with this is that, RAW, it's essentially 2 AoOs for the exact same action, taken at the exact same moment.
It's not "at the exact same moment", but they are both in the same square.
1) Opponent moves INTO the threatened area
1a) Barbarian gets his Unexpected Strike
2) The opponent could just cease movement at this point (if, say he had a reach weapon of his own) and not be subject to another AoO. He could use his remaining action(s) to do something else entirely. However, if he elects to continue moving, then he'll provoke from leaving a threatened square.
Put me down for "the barb gets 'em both, provided he has combat reflexes and at sufficiently high dex mod"
Put me down for "the barb gets 'em both, provided he has combat reflexes and at sufficiently high dex mod"
Ditto....
The rules say you don't get two attacks of opportunity for an opponent leaving multiple threatened squares in one move, the barbarian isn't. He is getting two different AoOs from different actions, the same way if a caster started next to him, moved out of two threatened squares while circling behind him, then tried to cast a spell in a threatened hex. 2 different actions in the same round can provoke two different AoOs.
It's slightly iffy, because the AoO is caused by movement, but my first instinct is completely in favor of "Yes, you get both." The Unexpected Strike doesn't really feel like a movement based AoO, so I don't think the limitation should apply.
What Slim Guage said
What Slim Guage said
I +1 this +1.
So take it when he moves out of the square within your reach. You still get one for the enemy moving into a square and one for it moving out if one.
The specific rule of the feat (AoO when square entered) overrides the general (AoO occurs BEFORE square entered).
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I think it has to be allowed, based entirely on the fact that a character that leaves a threatened space first would have already had movement that provoked, but then the ability would trigger because it works regardless of whether it would normally provoke. Seems silly for it to work one way but not another. Definitely feels fishy, but I think it checks out.
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"a move action will only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent, regardless of how many threatened squares they move through"
Opponent moves into Barbs area and provokes an AoO. All other squares moved THROUGH (into, out of, past, by, etc...) do NOT provoke. Barb only gets one AoO. But it triggers when they come INTO range, not when they move out of range.
IMHO, the Barb would ONLY get AoO's when this feat gives it to them, and unless they start a combat round with someone closer than the trigger that move away, would not ever get a normal AoO for moving out of a threatened square (ie. they only get ONE AoO per move action, as stated and highlighted above)
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"a move action will only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent, regardless of how many threatened squares they move through"
Opponent moves into Barbs area and provokes an AoO. All other squares moved THROUGH (into, out of, past, by, etc...) do NOT provoke. Barb only gets one AoO. But it triggers when they come INTO range, not when they move out of range.
IMHO, the Barb would ONLY get AoO's when this feat gives it to them, and unless they start a combat round with someone closer than the trigger that move away, would not ever get a normal AoO for moving out of a threatened square (ie. they only get ONE AoO per move action, as stated and highlighted above)
I think by the fact it is an 8th level, single use per rage, power it extends the rules a bit. It gives another circumstance where an AoO is possible, not just limiting it to "moving out", "casting a spell", or the host of other actions that draw AoOs.
It still does not allow for multiple AoO, Combat Reflexes are still required for that.
The rules text supplied only functions when moving out of a threatened square, while the rage power allows the barbarian in question to make his attack when an opponent enters a square.
if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).
Since the triggers are from separate sources, according to this text, he'd get both attacks.
"a move action will only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent, regardless of how many threatened squares they move through"
That isn't an accurate reading of the rules
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
a verbatim paste of the rules PRD supports the viewpoint that these are separate triggering actions
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Attacks of Opportunity:
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.
Moving is 1 trigger, not multiple triggers.
The ability is triggered by the target moving. The target movement can't trigger another AoO.What are the benefits of the rage power:
- you can make an a AoO against an enemy entering a square your threaten, so you get an AoO against a target that normally wouldn't generate one.
- you can make an AoO against an enemy taking a 5' step to flank you, even if taking a 5' step normally don't generate a AoO.
The "it is only once for rage" argument has no validity, there are too many ways to avoid the fatigue for leaving your rage, so rage cycling make that limitation almost irrelevant.
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I think he gets both.
The Unexpected strike happens in the square that the opponent is in when he moves. A typical AoO happens in the square previously to the one you move into. It is also different that a normal AoO is that it is only triggered by movement.
I don't see it being any different than a readied action that goes off when an opponent enters a threatened square. Which I think is the intent.
There could be timing issues in that the normal AoO happens in the previous square. So if the first AoO tripped him or knocked him down or another AoO from a different party prevented him from moving into the square...that can be interesting....if he gets hit with the first AoO can he elect to stay in the previous square not provoking the unexpected strike?
I also disagree with rage cycling.
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"a move action will only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent, regardless of how many threatened squares they move through"
Maouse, where is that quote from? I am unable to find it. This is how I understand the movement and AoO should work but I am unable to find that exact phrase in the core rulebook.
edited for formatting.
The PRD says
"Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents."
and then a bit later it says
"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
Attacks of Opportunity:
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.
Moving is 1 trigger, not multiple triggers.
The ability is triggered by the target moving. The target movement can't trigger another AoO.What are the benefits of the rage power:
- you can make an a AoO against an enemy entering a square your threaten, so you get an AoO against a target that normally wouldn't generate one.
- you can make an AoO against an enemy taking a 5' step to flank you, even if taking a 5' step normally don't generate a AoO.The "it is only once for rage" argument has no validity, there are too many ways to avoid the fatigue for leaving your rage, so rage cycling make that limitation almost irrelevant.
Bolded a little extra for emphasis. Right after it states that there are two ways to trigger an AoO, it specifies that they are "moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square." The first trigger is not simply any type of movement, but specifically moving out of a threatened square. Since the trigger listed in the rage power isn't moving out of or performing a specific action within a threatened square, we can assume that it is a "Specific Trumps General" scenario that adds an entirely new trigger. This reading has precedent in Greater Trip, which allows you to make an AoO against opponents tripped by you despite said opponent not moving out of or taking any actions within a threatened square.
You get 2 AOO, they are different reasons. One is for enterig a square, the other one is for leaving a square.
It's like a character with Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. You tirip someone, and you get 2 AoO. One for trippping a foe, the other one for the opponent falling prone. It seems like it's the same but it0's not.
Attacks of Opportunity:
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.
Moving is 1 trigger, not multiple triggers.
The ability is triggered by the target moving. The target movement can't trigger another AoO.What are the benefits of the rage power:
- you can make an a AoO against an enemy entering a square your threaten, so you get an AoO against a target that normally wouldn't generate one.
- you can make an AoO against an enemy taking a 5' step to flank you, even if taking a 5' step normally don't generate a AoO.The "it is only once for rage" argument has no validity, there are too many ways to avoid the fatigue for leaving your rage, so rage cycling make that limitation almost irrelevant.
I stressed the key word for easier understanding
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"a move action will only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent, regardless of how many threatened squares they move through"
Opponent moves into Barbs area and provokes an AoO. All other squares moved THROUGH (into, out of, past, by, etc...) do NOT provoke. Barb only gets one AoO. But it triggers when they come INTO range, not when they move out of range.
IMHO, the Barb would ONLY get AoO's when this feat gives it to them, and unless they start a combat round with someone closer than the trigger that move away, would not ever get a normal AoO for moving out of a threatened square (ie. they only get ONE AoO per move action, as stated and highlighted above)
But, Unexpected Strike says
Benefit: The barbarian can make an attack of opportunity against a foe that moves into any square threatened by the barbarian, regardless of whether or not that movement would normally provoke an attack of opportunity.
That bit about regardless of normally makes me think the Barbarian gets two attacks of opportunities (Assuming Combat Reflexes of course). Specific rule here trumps the general rule about movement only provoking once. In the worst case, the Barbarian takes the normal AoO for them leaving the 10 feet away square first, and when they enter the 5 feet away square, they make a second AoO becuase they are entitled to it regardless of whether the movement normally provokes.
It looks like MrCab has this right...
The specific exception highlighted in the feat supersedes the general rule in regards to moving through threat zones...
Seems pretty cut and dry...
RAW says yes.
And for precedent check out the FAQ for Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip.
FAQ
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That precedent doesn't apply.
It's been made quite clear, when that particular example is discussed, that the two provocations are caused by different events; one is from being successfully tripped, and one is from actually falling prone.
The case being discussed here is different - it's just one event (moving from one square on the board to the next square along the path).
I'd allow an attack of opportunity to be made for every part of the movement that moved into a threatened square, and I'd also allow one attack for movement out of the threatened area. But I don't think a single step can provoke two attacks; it might provoke for two reasons, but that only results in one attack.
On the other hand, though, I don't believe that an attack of opportunity has to be taken on the first provocation; if an enemy moves through my threatened area I can choose when to strike at him.
While some have focused on the two triggers happening on the same square, I should point out that the attacks occur in different squares.
1) Move out of square (normal AoO): Attack opponent before he does that part of the move, therefore opponent is still in the square.
2) Move into square (Rage Power AoO): Attack opponent before he does that part of the move, therefore opponent is not yet in the square, but rather the square before.
Also, consider tiny creatures. They can trigger for entering your square, at the same time they trigger for leaving a threatened square. That is two AoOs for one move due to two triggers being satisfied.
/cevah