Goblin Squad Member
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Baelnorn liches are the elven liches. The Srinshee is the most famous per http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have read thread after thread and post after post of "alignment/CE will suck/CE shouldn't suck/Use Rep instead" and so forth. While I intend to play the neutral band, I may here and there slip into E or G on my main and would like to explore the CE band on occasion. We all know that GW is developing the game under their own methods and rules and has stated that CE will be lesser. Why? Because it is... when played as Chaotic Stupid, and with any computer based game you can't get all the nuances of TT so 95% or more of the time CE evil will be played as Chaotic Stupid and a greifer or what looks like a greifer to everyone not playing that character, because it doesn't translate well, doesn't have enough detail to really play CE in the RP way without also playing it in the greifer way most of the time. Again 95%+ are going to end up looking like greifers, no matter what they intend, based on the actions that alignment normally takes and can take in a programed system. It doesn't matter if you kill someone, because you thought they had something of value you wanted to steal, if there is no way for that to look like a legitimate RP reason and matching your alignment through game mechanics. From their side it's greifing. Lets find a way within the system to make that action not greifing but actual RP.
My proposal is that those of us that have an interest in being CE in some way take the opportunity in Alpha and EE to really shine. To explore the game mechanics that GW creates (as they are NOT changing them, no matter how much we argue over it) and actually PLAY CE characters and show them it can be done without greifing in the game. We will find out if it IS possible or if CE really is the alignment of greifing or just Chatoic Stupid is. During this process we would have to test the boundaries of the system and find the lines where CE becomes CS. We would have to not care that the system is going to penalize us for this choice at first. Unless we can prove to GW we can make it work, without ruining the system they have created to keep the greifers at bay, they won't have any reason to change it.
I think that as a developer of games for people like us, if we can prove a system where we can have the CE alignment and not make it greifing or a bag of jerks, then they can recalibrate the system to be more lenient on those who choose CE, build more or different options for the CE groups. Maybe CEs don't have big settlements at all but end up creating Camps in wilderness hexes that can pack up and move to the next one, or hidden lairs of cultists (like outlaws have) but give us all the training we need for our chosen roles. I would think this small group of CE done right characters would need to make it their top priority to find and take out (read as "stop") all the CS greifers that aren't playing it right (and I'm sure there will be many at first) and make it a top notch group that has a legitimate place in the game. Steelwing's Road Warriors, the Barbarian Hoard (for hire!), the Kamikaze Assassins, Necromacers R Us and groups of a similar nature. GW can then really asses how it is working in the game then and we can get what we want. The system will evolve because we crowdforge it into something worth having, not by arguing over it, but by SHOWING them it can be done within the bounds they give us. We won't be building settlements right off the bat. We will have time to make it work. The hard part is how to get a bunch of selfish, greedy, backstabbing CE evil characters to work together in the first place. Give them a common goal! A selfish one, that gets them something they really want! In this case it is being who they really are!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've rarely seen them and it probably won't happen in PFO. But there are cases of good aligned undead.
I can't remember her name at the moment, but there was an Archlich in DnD's FR setting that was good. She raised a few undead to protect her and the city she lived in secretly.
Undying, as for the campaign setting... I'm at a loss. I know it was 3.5 edition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Undying, as for the campaign setting... I'm at a loss. I know it was 3.5 edition.I've rarely seen them and it probably won't happen in PFO. But there are cases of good aligned undead.
I can't remember her name at the moment, but there was an Archlich in DnD's FR setting that was good. She raised a few undead to protect her and the city she lived in secretly.
One I vaguely remember was 2E AD&D.
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My proposal is that those of us that have an interest in being CE in some way take the opportunity in Alpha and EE to really shine.
This, and then some.
Also, for those who want to play CE without griefing players who are really trying to avoid unwanted PvP, why not embrace the idea of fighting other players who actually, you know, dig random PvP? Play CE and prey on other CE Characters. Whip 'em into shape and then lead 'em rampaging through the more civilized lands every once in a while.
Wolves who slink away from other wolves with their tails between their legs and only ever seek out young or injured sheep for prey are likely sick themselves and should be culled.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... for those who want to play CE without griefing players who are really trying to avoid unwanted PvP, why not embrace the idea of fighting other players who actually, you know, dig random PvP? Play CE and prey on other CE Characters.
It would be great if your idea was a viable possibility but it's currently not, there's already an explicit answer to your question in this case. Any character sheet near the CE label is being designed to run the spectrum from purposely not fun to sucking hard, ignoring responsibility as a member of the community.
From the information we've been given, to be your fullest you're going to need a character sheet that says LN Core (or very close) and meta role play a different alignment while taking completely identical in-game actions to what you described.
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The ultimate take away here is that Alignment is not meant to be free-form the way you would expect in a TT roleplay game. Part of the reason is the lack of GMs to keep players from abusing each other in the name of their alignment, and the other part is the vast number of players that need to be managed.
Lawful alignments are meant to provide incentives for keeping your fellow players that associate with your settlement in line.
Chaotic alignments are meant to give a break to players who know up front that they don't want to worry about keeping everyone else in line. It provides a cushion for those who expect a certain lack of management instead of putting them on the same tier as those who want to be super-managers.
Good alignments tend to be focused towards cooperation and PvE.
Evil alignments tend to be focused towards competition and PvP.
When you cross the axis, you find CE is an unmanaged PvP-oriented base. This group risks driving away other customers. As soon as you start adhering to reputation, you begin following a number of laws. You are purposefully following the laws for the benefit of high reputation, and are thus not really acting in a chaotic way. This doesn't really hit CG the same way because reputation rules are largely centered around PvP behavior, meaning CG just happens to follow the rules because they would behave that way anyways and not out of any real sacrifice to the rules. Alignment is not just an In-Character roleplay attribute, it is an Out-Of-Character playstyle measurement.
As a roleplayer, I fully understand the frustration felt over the CE alignment penalties. However, I have also come to understand that Alignment is not being implemented as a Storytelling Roleplay element in the sense that you and I would recognize it, but it is being added in the sense of defining the role you are playing through the Mechanical Role you fill in the game.
TLDR;
Alignment = GameElements.MechanicalRoleDefinition;
if (Alignment != GameElements.StorytellingRoleplay)
{
Roleplayers.Emotion = Emotions.Sad | Emotions.Angry;
}
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If you're only fighting other CEs, your relative power level will be just fine. Think of it as a challenge to overcome.
because by and large those folks who are going CE are not going to be doing it for the challenge, they are going to do it for the mechanical advantages it has, namely not caring about any penalties associated with their actions.
i am sure there will be some CE folks with high rep in NE settlements could just as easily have their alignment be LE or NE. However i think that most of the people who are looking at CE and going "i want to do that" are looking at not having to care about rep or alignment no matter what they do.
anyway i think lifedragn has it right, alignment is not about morals and whats right and wrong, in a game you cant code those kinds of things. Alignment is used to provide social structure to groups and encourage different styles of play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they don't care about the training limitations and other penalties that come from low rep, why would you need to attach any alignment shifts to actions outside the rules in the first place?
That has always been my wonder. Perhaps it is meant to serve as a dual layer of protection from people who may be able to game one system but not the other?
But even still, I think "CE Sucking" is more about the Unrest and Corruption defaults putting them at settlement disadvantages. I'm not sure how this will look in game, but seeing that LE and CG are meant to be viable play styles and they each have disadvantaged base Unrest and Corruption respectively, this barrier alone may not be too terrible if you do manage to stay high rep. You may only be able to afford one max-level building per settlement and require multiple settlements for all training needs, but it should be doable even if disadvantaged. Assuming Unrest is even across all Evil and Corruption across all Chaos.
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If they don't care about the training limitations and other penalties that come from low rep, why would you need to attach any alignment shifts to actions outside the rules in the first place?
To keep them from turning PFO into a murder simulator.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd try to join you in giving it a shot if I didn't already have my hands full. I would very much like to see an evil organization rise up that is not out to win the game, in a meta sense, but that serves to actively develop events and activities for others to participate in. To be a group meant to challenge without actually setting out to overwhelm... frankly, a group of GMs trying to entertain other players XD
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For clarity of the OP, this is a call for evil and not necessarily Chaotic Evil. There are evil alignments that are not extremely hindered, and at least one on the axis that has been hinted to be fairly competitive on the settlement level.
I am not proposing a straw man, I know no one has claimed anything like that. This is purely for new readers that might get an inaccurate picture based on the CE side discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're only fighting other CEs, your relative power level will be just fine. Think of it as a challenge to overcome.
So if you want to role-play a chaotic evil villain we should just accept a lower tier of play?
They really are going for the "Wild-west" feel of the River Kingdoms huh?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'll have to find a Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil Settlement that is actively trying to keep their rep high enough to compete with other Settlements which means that de facto you'll be playing with and like less chaotic and less evil characters - the whole Settlement may be playing in ways that tend to drift their alignment away from Chaotic Evil.
So if the Settlement is well managed, you will likely have access to a fairly broad range of character abilities, but still not the absolute most exotic. That may or may not matter materially.
If you want to play your Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly, you'll probably not be able to remain a part of that Settlement - they'll boot you to protect their own Development Index.
Does that bolded part read the same way for all of us here? I am curious because, to me it seems to indicate something. It indicates that if you can somehow manage to play a CE toon and maintain a decent rep in an allowed settlement, that you will not be greatly disadvantaged.
Am I reading it wrong?
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, I think you are reading well, Bringslite. That and the 'flat' power curve suggest that the calculated theorycrafting indicates they need to do more work on the combat tables. CE play, well played, does not seem it will be 'lower tier', only less resourceful in terms of the array of available skills to slot, not the power of the skills they can slot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For clarity of the OP, this is a call for evil and not necessarily Chaotic Evil. There are evil alignments that are not extremely hindered, and at least one on the axis that has been hinted to be fairly competitive on the settlement level.
I am not proposing a straw man, I know no one has claimed anything like that. This is purely for new readers that might get an inaccurate picture based on the CE side discussion.
That is a valid and important reminder for the more casual reader, Charlie.
is chaotic evil characters = griefers?( what i mean is if im roleplaying a chaotic evil character and start to grief ppl im perfectly roleplaying a chaotic evil character, its what they do by nature)
isnt a chaotic evil with high reputation in truth a neutral or perhaps a lawful evil?
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(what i mean is if im roleplaying a chaotic evil character and start to grief ppl im perfectly roleplaying a chaotic evil character, its what they do by nature)
Random player-killing isn't necessarily griefing, but it's also not desired. And I tend to agree with you that Chaotic Evil is almost by definition full of random player-killing. It's certainly true that random player-killing is Chaotic Evil.
But no, I don't think Chaotic Evil = Griefer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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isnt a chaotic evil with high reputation in truth a neutral or perhaps a lawful evil?
Interestingly, there was a time where Ryan was viewing Reputation as the Law-Chaos axis.
Reputation is basically the Law - Chaos axis, and Alignment is the Good - Evil axis of the classic alignment graph.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that random player killing is desired, but to a point.
You want enough of it so that when people leave the safety of settlements they have to stay alert and watch whats going around because they know they could be a target, however you dont want it so that everytime people step out there is a gank squad waiting for them.
So if someone randomly kills you, nothing wrong with that, but if say a settlement of people start doing daily server ganks thats an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that random player killing is desired, but to a point.
You want enough of it so that when people leave the safety of settlements they have to stay alert and watch whats going around because they know they could be a target, however you dont want it so that everytime people step out there is a gank squad waiting for them.
So if someone randomly kills you, nothing wrong with that, but if say a settlement of people start doing daily server ganks thats an issue.
It took me a while, but I've come around to exactly this position.
For what it's worth...
I now believe the answer is "No", although I still believe the game would suffer immeasurably if the majority of PvP were of the type that carried Alignment and Reputation penalties.Could Pathfinder Online thrive as a successful game if everyone simply chose not to engage in Unsanctioned PvP?
I believe the answer is clearly "Yes", and conversely that the game would suffer immeasurably if the majority of PvP were Unsanctioned, but I'm curious to read others' arguments.
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Just trying to find out how many more of us are out there in the pre-game community. So basically if you plan on playing evil, just poke your head in.
@Pax Deacon
Sorry for going off on CE only. NE and LE seem like they will be playable and have quite a following of those intending to play them. CE on the other hand seems to be the most argued about.
@ All
I stand behind my proposal that we just PLAY CE and show GW it can work. By the time the end game comes around, by the time we have full settlements, by the time we need the training that CE has been cut off from, we could have proven the system and GW can make something to allow for those players without opening it up to griefers. We are the people playing the game, it's HOW we play it that will matter and make GW change it.
The system they have now allows us to play CE and as I see it, CE is only nerfed in the later game because we can't find a settlement to call our own but we won't even have PC settlements until the end of EE and into OE so we have plenty of time. GW can adjust things. We can make it work and stop trying to make them change it before we see HOW it works. You never know, CE may end up working great and having everything it needs to balance it out even though it looks like it will be nerfed in the late game. Don't let that stop you from setting your character to CE and RPing the hell out of it without becoming what the system is trying to stop.
I'm pretty sure we will find it is viable in many ways that we don't expect and can't see right now. It may be something where if training can be sold, that is what CE groups are paid in even from LG settlements and we can have a contract that once fulfilled we get the training time. I'm sure being ever so slightly lawful to complete the contract won't save our souls and we can stay CE quite easily.
Lets just give it a go and leave it alone until we can!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't let that stop you from setting your character to CE and RPing the hell out of it without becoming what the system is trying to stop.
That's a really good point.
Chaotic Evil isn't designed to suck because Ryan and the devs think Chaotic Evil should suck, but rather because they think Random Player-Killers should suck and they (with very good reason) expect virtually all Chaotic Evils to be Random Player-Killers, and vice versa.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't let that stop you from setting your character to CE and RPing the hell out of it without becoming what the system is trying to stop.That's a really good point.
Chaotic Evil isn't designed to suck because Ryan and the devs think Chaotic Evil should suck, but rather because they think Random Player-Killers should suck and they (with very good reason) expect virtually all Chaotic Evils to be Random Player-Killers, and vice versa.
So true! I have played D&D (over 25 years) and Pathfinder as a CE character many times and running CE players as a DM. It is totally possible and they are only "put down" when they rampage insanely and kill their own (without reason) or take on more than they can chew. Don't be INSANE as CE, be cunning and efficient, deadly and wicked, controlling and maniacal, manipulative and wrathful, or powerful and frightening! We can do this within the system and if we do they will make it workable for those that do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't be INSANE as CE, be cunning and efficient, deadly and wicked, controlling and maniacal, manipulative and wrathful, or powerful and frightening! We can do this within the system and if we do they will make it workable for those that do.
Of course, if you do, that might make you Lawful Evil :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ T7V Wexel Daventry
You choose a hard road, but I wish you success if I read your intent properly.
I think you do and I hope those that want to ride the CE wave can make it work. It's going to take them really doing it well to make it work. It won't be easy because it is the most abused and closet to abuse character play style. It's a fine line that if done well can be amazing, if done poorly is greifing and abolished. Let's see if we can show GW there are 12 alignments instead of 9:
Lawful Stupid (the Lawful Good idiot) (<--- NO)
LG
LN
LE
Neutral Stupid (Everything balances and nothing does) (<--- NO)
NG
TN
NE
Chaotic Stupid (Geifers R US) (<--- NO)
CG
CN
CE (<---- YES!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't be INSANE as CE, be cunning and efficient, deadly and wicked, controlling and maniacal, manipulative and wrathful, or powerful and frightening! We can do this within the system and if we do they will make it workable for those that do.Of course, if you do, that might make you Lawful Evil :)
True, but even the Chaotic have Lawful tendencies at times. I've had a CE character that would never break his word on pain of death and would rather die than lie. That seems pretty lawful at first but he just spoke the truth about his intentions and motives and backed up his words with actions (usually the killing type if questioned about his moral character).
Edit: To add to that, quite often, CE characters don't see themselves as CE. The above character once cut out a paladin's tongue (because he said he would) if she lied one more time, and she did in his eyes, so he took her tongue. Granted it was a white lie, but he didn't see it that away. He saw himself as moral because he didn't break his word or lie and didn't allow others to either but his actions spoke for themselves in the chaos and rampant destruction and pain he caused.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just trying to find out how many more of us are out there in the pre-game community. So basically if you plan on playing evil, just poke your head in.@Pax Deacon
Sorry for going off on CE only. NE and LE seem like they will be playable and have quite a following of those intending to play them. CE on the other hand seems to be the most argued about.
@ All
I stand behind my proposal that we just PLAY CE and show GW it can work. By the time the end game comes around, by the time we have full settlements, by the time we need the training that CE has been cut off from, we could have proven the system and GW can make something to allow for those players without opening it up to griefers. We are the people playing the game, it's HOW we play it that will matter and make GW change it.
The system they have now allows us to play CE and as I see it, CE is only nerfed in the later game because we can't find a settlement to call our own but we won't even have PC settlements until the end of EE and into OE so we have plenty of time. GW can adjust things. We can make it work and stop trying to make them change it before we see HOW it works. You never know, CE may end up working great and having everything it needs to balance it out even though it looks like it will be nerfed in the late game. Don't let that stop you from setting your character to CE and RPing the hell out of it without becoming what the system is trying to stop.
I'm pretty sure we will find it is viable in many ways that we don't expect and can't see right now. It may be something where if training can be sold, that is what CE groups are paid in even from LG settlements and we can have a contract that once fulfilled we get the training time. I'm sure being ever so slightly lawful to complete the contract won't save our souls and we can stay CE quite easily.
Lets just give it a go and leave it alone until we can!
I agree and that is what I will be doing in EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reason I prefer LE is that you will keep your word and still be ruthless. There can still be honor there. Dunno how you can do that with CE.
You can be CE and keep your word and have honor as well. It's a hard at times but can be done. The CE character I spoke of above was a Gladiator who won his freedom (and was honored and honorable) by being ruthless and winning in the "games", but always doing what he said he would. Once freed he killed his current owner then started hunting down and killing each of the owners who had enslaved or kept him or put slaves against him and anyone else who got in his way. He eventually killed the Emperor who the "games" were for on the moral grounds of condoning slavery but saw killing as a natural way to do what was needed if no one was forcing you to do it against your will. He ran with a mostly good group and the Emperor was LE but that didn't matter to him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Way back in the day, a group that I played with took a break from regular. We played Drow characters and CE. It was horrible because we really did play Chaotic Stupid and most of the originals were dead within about 3 marathon sessions. We continued the campaign and it went on for a while, but looking back it only worked because we were actually playing NE or LE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Way back in the day, a group that I played with took a break from regular. We played Drow characters and CE. It was horrible because we really did play Chaotic Stupid and most of the originals were dead within about 3 marathon sessions. We continued the campaign and it went on for a while, but looking back it only worked because we were actually playing NE or LE.
I completely understand that. Even in TT CE becomes CS easily. I have actually played a CE pacifist to see if it was possible; it was possible but not much fun for a game based on adventuring. CE doesn't mean violent though it is often thought of as such, but just a moral grounding to self preservation without much order. In RL CE people are not going around murdering people all the time, that's insanity in a lot of cases although in some it may be CE. In RL I'm sure CE people have family and loved ones, look out for their own and take what they can get wether it is legal or not. Really 9 alignments (or even 12) doesn't even remotely cover the plethora of human characteristics and is just a game mechanic to easily define an over all general scope of what a character might be willing to do. But games need systems like that in order to have some approximation of reality. We chose how to play that role though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll probably play my RL alignment which is NE. Though I'm seriously tempted to play CE for the challenge, and prove that you don't have to be a random player killer. Since it's likely to suck I'll most likely get frustrated and game the system and play NE in the end anyway.
I've been re-reading all of the Forgotten Realms books that relate to the Drow in the Underdark, so can totally see 'how' a CE community could work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll probably play my RL alignment which is NE. Though I'm seriously tempted to play CE for the challenge, and prove that you don't have to be a random player killer. Since it's likely to suck I'll most likely get frustrated and game the system and play NE in the end anyway.
I've been re-reading all of the Forgotten Realms books that relate to the Drow in the Underdark, so can totally see 'how' a CE community could work.
Read these all many times so I know it CAN work but I wouldn't want to live there in RL. In a fantasy world it can be fun though. I think NE will be quite easy to stick with and still have access to everything you want from the start.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've never played CE in TT game before. I find it hard to just play CG. However, I have played LE a few times. There was one game where I played a LE Bard for a year and not once killed anything. I had the other PCs do my dirty work. :P It was more of a political intrigue type game than exploration.
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It's becoming readily apparent I've had much better rpg conflicts with CE than most of all y'all. And they used weapons.
In real life we're highly conditioned against chaotic behavior because everything that socializes us is a system and innately lawful to perpetuate itself. So it can be difficult to flip the mental switch and be fluid without external rules even in a fantasy setting.
Just because a real life person is chaotic doesn't mean they're going to start randomly driving in oncoming lanes because who is anyone to tell them where they can drive. It's not that kind of chaos which is where I think the alignment word is largely a misnomer.
I recognize the concern that a large number of kids will equate chaotic evil with stupid or rpk and take it as license to act that way which is why I favor systems that physically shut down strings of nonstructure pvp. Literally no better protection from toxic behavior than an absence of toxic behavior.
Tying nonstructure pvp to an alignment and giving that entire alignment redundant penalties to what anyone gets already when they break rules... lawfuls don't question it, "Just go along with the system I'm sure it's for the best". Chaos wonders wtf mate?
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I consider myself a chaotic person in RL, not evil. I bristle at authority figures. I obey laws mostly out of fear of all the s~$% that comes at you if you don't. Have a hard time working at places that are too uptight with stupid rules. I've move around a lot. I am a total liberal. There is probably more. Not sure if that makes me chaotic but my life certainly feels chaotic a good deal of the time. (This is probably a little TMI)
As for role-playing I honestly have a hard time playing anything but a Chaotic-something. I find lawful characters boring. I actually was toying with the idea of a lawful PFO character, but have already kinda killed that idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's becoming readily apparent I've had much better rpg conflicts with CE than most of all y'all. And they used weapons.Please share. :)
You know your standard powermonger that kows disparate forces into a whole for as long as he retains enough power to either out-threaten the forces pushing them apart or more likely to convince them they get more by serving than being on their own. The Khalisaar (sp?) from Game of Thrones was CE or CN that way. His prowess as a warrior (literally never lost) gave the big Hawaiian guy enough power to make an abnormally huge group act in concert but once he died each of his lieutenants claimed themselves a Khal and took off with a bloc of the whole.
Attacking the village to distract the Heroes from the real goal of gaining the Ruby of Win from that ancient temple or whatever.
All your graveyards are belong to us.
Plain old "this is mine now" yoink for supplies or a good fort to base in a new area as the Grand Evil Plan matures.
While you can have good plots sometimes without that I think all of it belongs in a fantasy setting game at least as potential; as in it's incomplete without it.
But in these forums CE seems to be getting viewed as an invulnerable shadowy boogeyman where resistance is futile (Borg are highly Lawful anyway) or insurmountable catalyst for open pvp hooligans to interpret the CE label as license to go be CS serial killers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If he went to other settlements and broke their goody two-shoes laws a lot as sets to overthrow their petty cities and SADed the flood of non-hostile merchants fleeing the warzone, he'd end up with a C. If they didn't have so many laws, PO might only recognize him as NE because unlike a GM the server won't register the character's willingness to have broken them anyway if they had been there. But breaking settlement laws isn't toxic for low rep, just Chaotic.
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If he went to other settlements and broke their goody two-shoes laws a lot as sets to overthrow their petty cities and SADed the flood of non-hostile merchants fleeing the warzone, he'd end up with a C. If they didn't have so many laws, PO might only recognize him as NE because unlike a GM the server won't register the character's willingness to have broken them anyway if they had been there. But breaking settlement laws isn't toxic for low rep, just Chaotic.
What would this hypothetical person be doing that has been established as Evil in PFO?