OTOH, how many feats does it take to be a viable archer? 4+? 6+? How many does it take to be a viable 2-hander? 1.
It is not that much that it is uncommon. I would say that the relevant factor is the number of attacks. The halfling antipaladin use smite good in his 4 ranged attacks (2 iteratives + rapid shot + haster), then you can vaid like a 1/4 of the damage with deflect arrow.
The halfling antipaladin spirit charge you for 3d6 +80 of dmg, you avoid all the damage.
Like I said earlier, I suspect that there's a pretty decent chance that a defender won't get to use Crane Wing in an actual charger scenario at a table, if the rules are applied correctly.
I suspect it's probably a higher chance than the chance that, say, one of the magus's 1d4+howevermany images takes the hit. Getting Crane Wing up in such a scenario is possible, but not guaranteed.
Yeah, well the defensive fighting rules are just goading the instance of 'once I enter defensive fighting, that's how I am until the end of the adventure.' Because the way it is currently implemented makes no sense whatsoever.
But the fact is Deflect Arrows gets less and less useful with levels. Ranged people get full attacks, and then more attacks on top fo the full attack.
Melee attackers still have to deal with that standard action One Attack thing, and a wise Crane Winger can exploit that. He can also get his AC high enough that he can usually deal with all of an opponent's attacks with the combo of AC and Crane Wing, something that's hard to do against a missile person.
Missile guys are defeated by tactics. Stay out of the line of fire, get up on them fast and get them out of missile combat. Melee guys are limited just by moving ten feet!
Crane Wing retains much of its power even into higher levels. Deflect Arrows tends to get less and less valuable.
===Aelryinth
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It is not that much that it is uncommon. I would say that the relevant factor is the number of attacks. The halfling antipaladin use smite good in his 4 ranged attacks (2 iteratives + rapid shot + haster), then you can vaid like a 1/4 of the damage with deflect arrow.
The halfling antipaladin spirit charge you for 3d6 +80 of dmg, you avoid all the damage.
And if he walks up to you and full attacks along with his horse you have avoided less than 1/4 the damage. Said antipaladin does not have to be a one trick pony.
By your logic Deflect Arrows is too strong because it nerfs Vital Striking
ranged characters.
Missile guys are defeated by tactics. Stay out of the line of fire, get up on them fast and get them out of missile combat. Melee guys are limited just by moving ten feet!
Crane Wing retains much of its power even into higher levels. Deflect Arrows tends to get less and less valuable.
===Aelryinth
Are you joking? That whole moving 10 feet bit is a bit more tricky than you make out. Even taking a move action and eating the aoo hurts an enemies action economy.
Ranged combat is already shut down depending on the range to enemies combat starts in. They start in melee, stealth close, or in a narrow passage ranged isn't going to get off attacks. You can't cherry pick scenarios saying that melee is some sorta frail flower in need of protecting over ranged.
I get that you dislike automatic attack negation, especially in conjunction with a reduced attack penalty and an increase in ac atop that. Old crane was quite strong. But I Don't think this is the best way of going about your argument.
It is not that much that it is uncommon. I would say that the relevant factor is the number of attacks. The halfling antipaladin use smite good in his 4 ranged attacks (2 iteratives + rapid shot + haster), then you can vaid like a 1/4 of the damage with deflect arrow.
The halfling antipaladin spirit charge you for 3d6 +80 of dmg, you avoid all the damage.
And if he walks up to you and full attacks along with his horse you have avoided less than 1/4 the damage. Said antipaladin does not have to be a one trick pony.
By your logic Deflect Arrows is too strong because it nerfs Vital Striking
ranged characters.
Not sure how. Spirit charge is a strong option, ranged vital strike is absurdly weak.
The defensive combat thing is also an horror. It seems one of those cases in PF when they have to make a convoluted rule in order to "balance" another thing.
It is not that much that it is uncommon. I would say that the relevant factor is the number of attacks. The halfling antipaladin use smite good in his 4 ranged attacks (2 iteratives + rapid shot + haster), then you can vaid like a 1/4 of the damage with deflect arrow.
The halfling antipaladin spirit charge you for 3d6 +80 of dmg, you avoid all the damage.
And if he walks up to you and full attacks along with his horse you have avoided less than 1/4 the damage. Said antipaladin does not have to be a one trick pony.
By your logic Deflect Arrows is too strong because it nerfs Vital Striking
ranged characters.
Are you seriously, using ranged vital strike as an example? I have only ever seen it on paper Ive never ever actually had an NPC in any game use it. ITs a horrible example.
However, to clarify I dont really have a dog in the whole fight. No one in my local area appears to have ever used any version of crane wing and personally I have no issue with how fighting defensivly works.
To be honest, i think half the conflict with CW is that alot of people appear to not understand how fighting defensively workd and that may have made CW appear stronger than it was. That said, I do think it was on the strong side but Its previous existance or removal has not affected any game ive played.
I just thought an example of ranged vital strike as any real argument was honestly weak sauce.
It is not that much that it is uncommon. I would say that the relevant factor is the number of attacks. The halfling antipaladin use smite good in his 4 ranged attacks (2 iteratives + rapid shot + haster), then you can vaid like a 1/4 of the damage with deflect arrow.
The halfling antipaladin spirit charge you for 3d6 +80 of dmg, you avoid all the damage.
And if he walks up to you and full attacks along with his horse you have avoided less than 1/4 the damage. Said antipaladin does not have to be a one trick pony.
By your logic Deflect Arrows is too strong because it nerfs Vital Striking
ranged characters.Not sure how. Spirit charge is a strong option, ranged vital strike is absurdly weak.
Double Hackabut+Immovable Rod+Ninja+Vital Strike Chain... Just saying.. that hurts... ALOT...
I do not know that combo, can you elaborate?
It is not that much that it is uncommon. I would say that the relevant factor is the number of attacks. The halfling antipaladin use smite good in his 4 ranged attacks (2 iteratives + rapid shot + haster), then you can vaid like a 1/4 of the damage with deflect arrow.
The halfling antipaladin spirit charge you for 3d6 +80 of dmg, you avoid all the damage.
And if he walks up to you and full attacks along with his horse you have avoided less than 1/4 the damage. Said antipaladin does not have to be a one trick pony.
By your logic Deflect Arrows is too strong because it nerfs Vital Striking
ranged characters.Are you seriously, using ranged vital strike as an example? I have only ever seen it on paper Ive never ever actually had an NPC in any game use it. ITs a horrible example.
However, to clarify I dont really have a dog in the whole fight. No one in my local area appears to have ever used any version of crane wing and personally I have no issue with how fighting defensivly works.
To be honest, i think half the conflict with CW is that alot of people appear to not understand how fighting defensively workd and that may have made CW appear stronger than it was. That said, I do think it was on the strong side but Its previous existance or removal has not affected any game ive played.
I just thought an example of ranged vital strike as any real argument was honestly weak sauce.
Of course it is silly. The argument was that since old Crane Wing shut down some one trick ponies it was overpowered. The Vital Striking archer just illustrates that shutting down a one trick pony does not necessarily make something overpowered.
Incidentally, how would you guys propose a behemoth hippopotamus (or T-Rex) handle a fifth level monk with Crane Strike?
Incidentally, how would you guys propose a behemoth hippopotamus (or T-Rex) handle a fifth level monk with Crane Strike?
Call their friends... Or, you know... Just die. Is the game really that much easier because one character can solo easy monsters?
When a level five can solo a CR 10 without the vaguest element of risk? Yeah, I worry.
When a level five can solo a CR 10 without the vaguest element of risk? Yeah, I worry.
So you ban Fly?
But that's a caster. They're supposed to be the best. :(
Incidentally, how would you guys propose a behemoth hippopotamus (or T-Rex) handle a fifth level monk with Crane Strike?
Keep out of reach of the monk, utilize the reach advantage. Sooner or later the monk will give the T-rex an AoO or it will be a stalemate(since total defense doesn't let the monk get an ApP either).
However, given the intelligence of the T Rex, it should totally charge in first. Let the monk deflect. Then, after it realizes it's losing, which even an animal should have a morale chart, it should run away. If pressed, then it should do the above.
Or, if it's an awakened T-re x, go straight to the keep out of reach game
A little part of me dies when I have to have a behemoth hippo flee a martial class.
But that's a caster. They're supposed to be the best. :(
Also, can I say that it's thinking like this that ticks off a lot of martial players :P
Of course it is silly. The argument was that since old Crane Wing shut down some one trick ponies it was overpowered. The Vital Striking archer just illustrates that shutting down a one trick pony does not necessarily make something overpowered.
It was not all the argument, but even in that case those ponies were good ponies, not gimped ones.
A little part of me dies when I have to have a behemoth hippo flee a martial class.
Why? Animals shouldn't be able to tell how powerful a guy is, what difference to the beasties if he's 5 or 15? Fight or flight kicks in sooner or later.
But that's a caster. They're supposed to be the best. :(
Can't argue with that logic...
But that's a caster. They're supposed to be the best. :(Also, can I say that it's thinking like this that ticks off a lot of martial players :P
those ponies were good ponies
So they were, like, Rarity?
But that's a caster. They're supposed to be the best. :(Can't argue with that logic...
Awesome. Poll resolved. Another thread expertly KC'd.
But that's a caster. They're supposed to be the best. :(Also, can I say that it's thinking like this that ticks off a lot of martial players :Pthose ponies were good poniesSo they were, like, Rarity?
Ah lol. Apologies. It's hard to read satire online with out a /joke or something
Incidentally, how would you guys propose a behemoth hippopotamus (or T-Rex) handle a fifth level monk with Crane Strike?
Hippo readies an action to slam the Monk at the start of the Monk's turn before he can go back into Total Defense. Effects that last 1 round end at the start of your turn.
Theres a chink in every armor.
But the monk can just run away—he move faster than the hippo if he takes Fleet a few times. I say we give monks a slow BAB to even the scales.
ALERT: THE ABOVE IS A JOKE
ANY RELATION TO REAL-LIFE HIPPOS OR MONKS, LIVING OR DEAD, IS PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY PISSED ME OFF AND THIS IS MY PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE WAY OF GETTING BACK AT THEM
I DO NOT OWN PAIZO, PATHFINDER, OR A COPYRIGHT ON THE WORD MONK
/meta joke
But the monk can just run away—he move faster than the hippo if he takes Fleet a few times. I say we give monks a slow BAB to even the scales.
ALERT: THE ABOVE IS A JOKE
ANY RELATION TO REAL-LIFE HIPPOS OR MONKS, LIVING OR DEAD, IS PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY PISSED ME OFF AND THIS IS MY PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE WAY OF GETTING BACK AT THEM
I DO NOT OWN PAIZO, PATHFINDER, OR A COPYRIGHT ON THE WORD MONK/meta joke
I think Hasbro need to file a lawsuit because he's referencing Hippos without permission.
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I do not know that combo, can you elaborate?
Take a level of gunslinger to get proficiency
Jerry Rig Immovable rod to act as a "mount" for the double Hackabut (reduces set up time to move action instead of full round action)
Use Ninja vanishing trick to get close.
Set down Double Hackabut
use Vital Strike with the Double Hackabut (base Damage is 2d12). You are now aiming at Flat-Footed Touch AC. So with Vital Strike you are dealing 2d12+2d12+Sneak Attack damage. Add in feats like Point Blank shot and weapon enhancements, you can do ALOT of damage in a single shot. If you end up going Gunslinger 5/Ninja X it gets even funnier since you add Dex to damage. Additionally, if you are a Mysterious Stranger, your grit is based on Cha (so Ki Pool and Grit run on same attribute) and you can also add Cha to damage by spending a Grit (which does not mean much since you can 1 shot most things pretty consistantly.
I do not know that combo, can you elaborate?Take a level of gunslinger to get proficiency
Jerry Rig Immovable rod to act as a "mount" for the double Hackabut (reduces set up time to move action instead of full round action)
Use Ninja vanishing trick to get close.
Set down Double Hackabut
use Vital Strike with the Double Hackabut (base Damage is 2d12). You are now aiming at Flat-Footed Touch AC. So with Vital Strike you are dealing 2d12+2d12+Sneak Attack damage. Add in feats like Point Blank shot and weapon enhancements, you can do ALOT of damage in a single shot. If you end up going Gunslinger 5/Ninja X it gets even funnier since you add Dex to damage. Additionally, if you are a Mysterious Stranger, your grit is based on Cha (so Ki Pool and Grit run on same attribute) and you can also add Cha to damage by spending a Grit (which does not mean much since you can 1 shot most things pretty consistantly.
Incidentally, how would you guys propose a behemoth hippopotamus (or T-Rex) handle a fifth level monk with Crane Strike?
A T rex and a behemoth hippo both have reach. Thus, this,
When a level five can solo a CR 10 without the vaguest element of risk? Yeah, I worry.
is not at all accurate to the rules. It is not even difficult for either a T rex or hippo to defeat Crane Wing, due to their reach.
I thought we had been over this.
If you're still not convinced, I invite you to roll up a 5th level old Crane monk, try to punch it out with the monster which I am willing to run over on the pbp forums, and then once you have been eaten perhaps we can properly bury this line of argument with all due funerary rites.
Your choice of hippo or Rex.
Incidentally, how would you guys propose a behemoth hippopotamus (or T-Rex) handle a fifth level monk with Crane Strike?
a. Grapple (not an attack so can't be immune with the feat as discussed in Amulet of Mighty Strikes thread)
b. Unarmed Strikes (every creature is proficient in PF): high BAB = multiple ones.c. Throw trees at the monk. He can stop the damage but not the weight that means he is slowly being crushed to death.
d. Fight Defensively means he must have hit someone. You can't fight defensively without fighting. Hit him before he fights defensively (winning initiative helps).
The behemoth can also trample the monk. Not an attack roll: just damage. It can just use evasion if it forgoes an attack of opportunity true. But then the monk either runs up to you provoking your huge reach (no Fight Defensive means no Crane Wing blocking this one) to attack and fight defensive.
The behemoth hippo is a silly example for 1 its an animal and wont do half the stuff people suggest. And two it can just trample the monk who dies in 2 rounds with no chance. 2d6+13 Without power attack no attack roll ergo no crane wing.
But really the whole argument is silly. Crane wing kept the better part of the feat chain in geting large bonuses to ac while attacking defensively.
Wether it was over powered or just huge parts of the player base don't understand how fighting defensively works I don't know. Though the fact that so many people made 1 trick ponies wrapped around the avoiddd hit shows why they looked at it.
is not at all accurate to the rules. It is not even difficult for either a T rex or hippo to defeat Crane Wing, due to their reach.
I thought we had been over this.
We went over an intelligent human fighter, not a hippo. If my questions are bothering you, let somebody else answer them. Which, y'know, people already did?
Keep in mind I'm not on a side here. I'm just bringing up potential problems with the feat to see if they're as big an issue as they seem. As long as they get addressed, I've got nothing to argue about.
a. Grapple (not an attack so can't be immune with the feat as discussed in Amulet of Mighty Strikes thread)
I'm adressing this because its one of the things that frustrates me about the boards. When people appear unable to understand simple statements or deliberstely mis read text. In this case you are mis reading easy english and then pushing that mis reading.
At no time did pdt say grapple was not an attack. I am paraphrasing here as I am on my phone but it was along the lines of " a grapple is not an unarmed strike or natural attack. Its a grapple" that statement in no way implied it wasn't an attack.
Try this statement lawn darts is not a game played with a ball and bat. Its played with large darts. Your not then going to tell your friend lawn darts is not a game.
Anyhow shirt story is crane wing stops grapple cold as combat maneuvers are treated as atttacks.
Eh...
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.
Nowhere do the rules say CMB checks are attacks. I think the burden of proof's on you. :P
Eh...
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.Nowhere do the rules say CMB checks are attacks. I think the burden of proof's on you. :P
You should quote the whole section.
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
That bit in the following paragraph?
We went over an intelligent human fighter, not a hippo. If my questions are bothering you, let somebody else answer them. Which, y'know, people already did?is not at all accurate to the rules. It is not even difficult for either a T rex or hippo to defeat Crane Wing, due to their reach.
I thought we had been over this.
Coriat has numerous times, on this thread and others, pointed out that the idea that a large single natural attack creature with reach can wipe the floor with a low level crane styler. Your questions are 'bothering' because they cause people to repeat themselves, ad nauseum. If you can't be bothered to run a basic check on what has been settled and left unsettled in a debate, I'm surprised that you not only think your opinion is worthwhile and helpful, but that you can be rude about it as well.
However, for the sake of pointing it out once again, in such a combat, monk vs T-Rex,
Option 1. T-Rex goes first. Moves to or charges within its reach of the monk, eats monk.
Option 2. Monk goes first. Moves through T-Rex's reach, suffers attack of opportunity which can't be deflected because the monk has not yet attacked and thus can't be fighting defensively. Monk gets eaten.
It's just frosting that you're also wrong about combat maneuvers not being attacks. They are. The reason they don't matter with regards to Crane Wing is because they don't deal damage.
"Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you."
Since it doesn't alter any other effects, a bull rush still succeeds, a grapple still succeeds, etc. No damage, but the effect carries through.
Kain, both you and Coriat miss out on the fact that those are NOT the only options available to the monk.
Option 3. Monk goes first, throws a weapon (while using Fighting Defensively) at the T-Rex. T-Rex moves to or charges within its reach of the monk, monk deflects.
There are other options available but this is the simplest.
Kain, both you and Coriat miss out on the fact that those are NOT the only options available to the monk.
Option 3. Monk goes first, throws a weapon (while using Fighting Defensively) at the T-Rex. T-Rex moves to or charges within its reach of the monk, monk deflects.
There are other options available but this is the simplest.
In which case the 5th level monk is left at the edge, or more likely in the middle of the Rex's 20 ft reach when his next turn begins. He can move forward (AoO, undeflectable), backward (AoO, undeflectable), take a full round withdraw (no AoO, but no fighting defensively for when the Rex pursues), attempt to continue ranged attacks or go on full defense or something similar to gain deflectability (which will overload his deflections via the combination of AoOs and normal on turn attacks)... perhaps do a few other things. But in most cases, the resolution to your option three just cycles back to Option 1 or 2 next round.
I didn't miss out on it. It just doesn't really end up helping against 20ft reach.
Not to mention the fact that you can just go Total Defense before moving in.
In which case you can deflect the AoO but you won't have a deflection left over for the dinosaur's on-turn attack.
Coriat, with Enlarge+Lunge+5' step it is just fine.
There are any number of ways to deal with it and it isn't like the T-Rex is going to surprise the monk. He will have at least a round to drink an enlarge potion in advance and the T-Rex is a CR9 creature so the monk should be able to have the lunge feat unless it is a higher CR battle.
Even in the case of a higher CR battle there are options for the monk.
The monk can keep 5' stepping out of the way and use ranged attacks or if the T-Rex moves to 15' away the monk can 5' step in and use melee attacks.
In short, there are many options for a monk to not take damage from that single attack, especially not from a stupid animal.
Coriat, with Enlarge+Lunge+5' step it is just fine.
There are any number of ways to deal with it and it isn't like the T-Rex is going to surprise the monk. He will have at least a round to drink an enlarge potion in advance and the T-Rex is a CR9 creature so the monk should be able to have the lunge feat unless it is a higher CR battle.
I'm not really going to bother analyzing this in greater detail because even if it is correct I doubt that 1 minute worth of enlarged is enough for a 5th level monk to kill a T rex, especially if he is using shuriken.
I'm happy to run it for you instead of KC if you like though. Then you can actually put your ideas to the test and see how well they work.
Coriat, with Enlarge+Lunge+5' step it is just fine.
There are any number of ways to deal with it and it isn't like the T-Rex is going to surprise the monk. He will have at least a round to drink an enlarge potion in advance and the T-Rex is a CR9 creature so the monk should be able to have the lunge feat unless it is a higher CR battle.
Even in the case of a higher CR battle there are options for the monk.
The monk can keep 5' stepping out of the way and use ranged attacks or if the T-Rex moves to 15' away the monk can 5' step in and use melee attacks.In short, there are many options for a monk to not take damage from that single attack, especially not from a stupid animal.
If we're above 5th level, almost any spellcasting class can shut down the T-Rex without much trouble.
Readied action to attack him at the start of his turn gets past Crane Wing since he needs to go back into total defense or fight defensively each round.
Coriat, apparently you missed the point. The point behind Enlarge Person was not that he was using shuriken consistently, it is that he can more readily get within reach.
Anyhow, this is really a "is not" vs "is too" debate but the general point is that even in the case of a monk that is reasonably well prepared can avoid damage from a T-Rex with the old version.
Scavion, I was not the one that stated level 5. I am dealing with the idea that a monk cannot keep up fighting defensively and thus block the T-Rex's one attack per round.