Crane Wing errata poll


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
At that point there really isn't much alot of melees can do to deal with the feat.
Melee-focused characters can't carry a bow as a backup weapon?

Already replied to that if you didn't bother to read the rest of it but here it is again on its own.

You can but you won't make an effective switch hitter at level 1. There generally aren't enough feats at level 1 to be an effective ranged character and melee character.

I edited my post while you were replying to it:

Melee-focused characters can't carry a bow or flasks of alchemist's fire or whatever as a backup weapon? Sure, they won't be effective switch-hitters, but that doesn't mean they can do nothing.


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
At that point there really isn't much alot of melees can do to deal with the feat.
Melee-focused characters can't carry a bow as a backup weapon?

Already replied to that if you didn't bother to read the rest of it but here it is again on its own.

You can but you won't make an effective switch hitter at level 1. There generally aren't enough feats at level 1 to be an effective ranged character and melee character.

I edited my post while you were replying to it:

Melee-focused characters can't carry a bow or flasks of alchemist's fire or whatever as a backup weapon? Sure, they won't be effective switch-hitters, but that doesn't mean they can do nothing.

You could also say that in 3.5 the 5th level rogue could flank against the DR 15 golem and hey he's still doing something.

Does that make for a good satisfactory gaming experience? Is that in fact a good thing?

Reducing people's characters to paltry dpr is little better than telling the character to go sit against the wall for this encounter. Yes they can do something but most players will not feel good in pathfinder about "yes I did 3 damage!" or "yes i give a +2 to hit!"

I argue that pathfinder made a smart move in attempting to shift away from the style of "certain people are very strong in certain situations and everyone else is next to useless." It shows in the rogue sneak attack, it shows in the treatment of cross class skills, and frankly it makes for a better gaming experience when certain players are not reduced to beneath standard commoner levels.


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I'm guessing people are against Fly too, right? It blocks all melee attacks unless the attacker has - you guessed it! - the ability to fly.


So are encounters against flying enemies out too? Meleers have trouble with those too.


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
So are encounters against flying enemies out too? Meleers have trouble with those too.

Not at low levels you don't. You start seeing them, ironically enough, about the level you see the spell fly. You certainly don't see them at 1st and by the time they really show up you can at least get a scroll of fly.


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Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
So are encounters against flying enemies out too? Meleers have trouble with those too.

Not at low levels you don't. You start seeing them, ironically enough, about the level you see the spell fly. You certainly don't see them at 1st and by the time they really show up you can at least get a scroll of fly.

So no one uses those CR1 and below flying creatures?


The numbers on the favorites poll a few posts down from the OP are pretty damning. Wonder if the Developers will see that.


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MagusJanus wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
So are encounters against flying enemies out too? Meleers have trouble with those too.

Not at low levels you don't. You start seeing them, ironically enough, about the level you see the spell fly. You certainly don't see them at 1st and by the time they really show up you can at least get a scroll of fly.

So no one uses those CR1 and below flying creatures?

Understand the data for me is about 5 years of pathfinder now and under about 6 different gms and pathfinder society.

Bats: Nope
Raven: Nada
Tooth Fairy: They seriously have this?
Hawk: Nope
Pterosaur: X

... Do I really need to go through the whole list?

As a side note, you'll see that every one of those creatures, typically animals, has not a single form of ranged attack on them. This negates the whole melee vs flying this as they're all small or below and thus have to at least get into melee range to attack.

However I think you already knew the fact that they would have to get into melee range in order to fight, so I think I'm done here...


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
So are encounters against flying enemies out too? Meleers have trouble with those too.

Not at low levels you don't. You start seeing them, ironically enough, about the level you see the spell fly. You certainly don't see them at 1st and by the time they really show up you can at least get a scroll of fly.

So no one uses those CR1 and below flying creatures?

Understand the data for me is about 5 years of pathfinder now and under about 6 different gms and pathfinder society.

Bats: Nope
Raven: Nada
Tooth Fairy: They seriously have this?
Hawk: Nope
Pterosaur: X

... Do I really need to go through the whole list?

As a side note, you'll see that every one of those creatures, typically animals, has not a single form of ranged attack on them. This negates the whole melee vs flying this as they're all small or below and thus have to at least get into melee range to attack.

However I think you already knew the fact that they would have to get into melee range in order to fight, so I think I'm done here...

That's incredibly odd...

And, I did already know it. Not my argument. I never saw it as a solution anyway, since a prepared martial could just follow the flying person...


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Thomas Long 175 wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
So are encounters against flying enemies out too? Meleers have trouble with those too.

Not at low levels you don't. You start seeing them, ironically enough, about the level you see the spell fly. You certainly don't see them at 1st and by the time they really show up you can at least get a scroll of fly.

So no one uses those CR1 and below flying creatures?

Understand the data for me is about 5 years of pathfinder now and under about 6 different gms and pathfinder society.

Bats: Nope
Raven: Nada
Tooth Fairy: They seriously have this?
Hawk: Nope
Pterosaur: X

... Do I really need to go through the whole list?

As a side note, you'll see that every one of those creatures, typically animals, has not a single form of ranged attack on them. This negates the whole melee vs flying this as they're all small or below and thus have to at least get into melee range to attack.

However I think you already knew the fact that they would have to get into melee range in order to fight, so I think I'm done here...

Strix? Humanoid, flying, seems like a strong pick for a CR1 flyer.

there's not a ton of low level flyers but they're there.

Besides, goblins riding pterosaurs would be hilarious.... and effective.


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Sub_Zero wrote:

Strix? Humanoid, flying, seems like a strong pick for a CR1 flyer.

there's not a ton of low level flyers but they're there.

Besides, goblins riding pterosaurs would be hilarious.... and effective.

Now I keep imagining a whole PFS table unable to go through an encounter that consists of two 1st level Warrior Strix with crossbows.


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Lemmy wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:

Strix? Humanoid, flying, seems like a strong pick for a CR1 flyer.

there's not a ton of low level flyers but they're there.

Besides, goblins riding pterosaurs would be hilarious.... and effective.

Now I keep imagining a whole PFS table unable to go through an encounter that consists of two 1st level Warrior Strix with crossbows.

"OH GOD. THE HORROR. BOLTS BOLTS BOLTS!"-Sole Survivor


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Lemmy wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:

Strix? Humanoid, flying, seems like a strong pick for a CR1 flyer.

there's not a ton of low level flyers but they're there.

Besides, goblins riding pterosaurs would be hilarious.... and effective.

Now I keep imagining a whole PFS table unable to go through an encounter that consists of two 1st level Warrior Strix with crossbows.

At least they don't have Crane Wing... if they did melee types might be in trouble....

Because this is the internet the above is sarcasm.


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Lemmy wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:

Strix? Humanoid, flying, seems like a strong pick for a CR1 flyer.

there's not a ton of low level flyers but they're there.

Besides, goblins riding pterosaurs would be hilarious.... and effective.

Now I keep imagining a whole PFS table unable to go through an encounter that consists of two 1st level Warrior Strix with crossbows.

Give them deflect arrow for more fun


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Nicos wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:

Strix? Humanoid, flying, seems like a strong pick for a CR1 flyer.

there's not a ton of low level flyers but they're there.

Besides, goblins riding pterosaurs would be hilarious.... and effective.

Now I keep imagining a whole PFS table unable to go through an encounter that consists of two 1st level Warrior Strix with crossbows.
Give them deflect arrow for more fun

Two 1st Level Stryx Monks with Crossbows. That would seriously screw up a low level PFS group. Love it. :)

Clearly everything involved needs to be nerfed.


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Thomas Long 175 wrote:
I argue that pathfinder made a smart move in attempting to shift away from the style of "certain people are very strong in certain situations and everyone else is next to useless." It shows in the rogue sneak attack, it shows in the treatment of cross class skills, and frankly it makes for a better gaming experience when certain players are not reduced to beneath standard commoner levels.

I'm sorry, but your games must be very different than mine. You've never seen a shocking grasp magus build? A color spray oracle? A burning hands or sleep wizard? A rage-pounce barbarian? A trip monk? ANY SUMMONER or GUNSLINGER? Seriously?

The entire focus of Pathfinder (and 99% of the PFS games I've played) anymore is about nothing BUT one-trick ponies and specialists. The entire game system does NOTHING but reward specialization! Unless you specialize in defense, of course...


Scavion wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:

I would also suggest that since I'm seeing very little descriptions of how Crane Wing made for more interesting melee fights then the fact that so much complaining is occurring indicates that the complainers agree that it was simply a very powerful feat and they're unhappy about losing that power.

Don't deride the opposition by calling us complainers. There are very real problems with the nerf, how it came about, and what it means for the rest of the system.

I can immediately think of one way Crane Wing makes fights more interesting. The game is built around rocketing your offense about. Anything that delays that makes fights more interesting. Being able to build a BBEG who can last a few rounds with the Front Liner slugging him is a godsend.

There are multiple points of which people are frustrated with the nerf and I don't like the way you're dismissing them with the folks who believe melee combat is relatively uninteresting.

First and foremost is it lowers variety. Defensive builds are already an incredible minority to the rocket tag builds of martials. With or without Crane Wing. Likely this nerf will push those builds even further away. People are going to be disappointed by the lack of support for duelist style defensive fighting.

Second you have the folks(like me) who are bothered by the fact that PFS seems to have a major part in this errata which has affected all of Pathfinder.

Third we have the people annoyed that the Caster Martial disparity has grown even moreso since Crane Wing was an ability that scaled as you went. It also had an interesting reversal of the power chart. Martials are strong early and less powerful later on. Crane Wing was held as a shining example of a Martial feat, so of course it was powerful early on. At later levels it decreased in effectiveness as all Martials do.

There are more reasons and I'd love for people to add to my list.

Sorry if I came across a bit harsh but I've been worn a bit thin by the constant "asolutely no problem as it was" when by definition of the number of opposing posts it quite clearly was a problem for many games (and not just PFS).

That said I completely agree that the nerf went to far and I also agree that it was a excellent balanced feat in the majority of builds. Unfortunately the broad nerf just killed the feat instead of fixing the significant minority over powered builds/situations.


Doomed Hero wrote:
The numbers on the favorites poll a few posts down from the OP are pretty damning. Wonder if the Developers will see that.

I haven't been using the favourites but if you think it's important I'll go through and favourite all the posts I liked (other than my own that is). :-)


Stephen Ede wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
The numbers on the favorites poll a few posts down from the OP are pretty damning. Wonder if the Developers will see that.
I haven't been using the favourites but if you think it's important I'll go through and favourite all the posts I liked (other than my own that is). :-)

He means these three posts.

Pretty much, 175 people agree the nerf was not best, while 34 say it's good. Of those 175, 109 say the feat should not have been nerfed at all. So that means that, as of this post, the majority is saying the feat should have been left alone.


Just for interest because someone mentioned Balors I did the Math for a Balor going 1 to 1 with the Crane Wing PC in my game.
11th lev character. When Defensive Fighting is AC = 49
The Best Sword hits on 18, the Best Whip on 19 and the rest 20's

The chance of him getting a single hit in a round is 32.6%.
The chance of getting 2+ hits in a round is 8.2%

So Crane Wing reduces the chance of this (admittedly tough) 11th level PC taking damage going 1 to 1 vs a Balor CR 20 from 40.8% per round down to 8.2%.

Now admittedly if the Balor can successfully use his Greater Dispell to knock out Mage Armour (not sure if that's with Bark Skin up) then things improve somewhat with the 1st attacks having better odds, but that's not a guaranteed success, and the Player can just recast Mage Armour.

The rest of the spells will probably be saved against.


MagusJanus wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
The numbers on the favorites poll a few posts down from the OP are pretty damning. Wonder if the Developers will see that.
I haven't been using the favourites but if you think it's important I'll go through and favourite all the posts I liked (other than my own that is). :-)

He means these three posts.

Pretty much, 175 people agree the nerf was not best, while 34 say it's good. Of those 175, 109 say the feat should not have been nerfed at all. So that means that, as of this post, the majority is saying the feat should have been left alone.

And as was pointed out early on, by nature the people who hate a change are the most active. So we have 109 of 210 think the feat should've been left alone. Honestly, that's a lose for the "feat should've been left alone". If that's all you can get and the Designers pay attention to it (which I hope they do) then you won't see the nerf removed. What you will hopefully see is the nerf reduced significantly, since that would be looking at a 176 of 210, and that's the point where you are looking at a significant ratio (not overwhelming, and I'm saying this as a person who supports reducing the Nerf, but definitely significant).

Edited when I realised I hadn't put my vote in. :-)


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Stephen Ede wrote:
I am amused that you think the GM should easily adapt the encounter to make sure Crane Wing isn't a problem, but yet you don't think the GM can adjust the encounter so that DPR-focused 2-handed/archery builds aren't the only way Martials can be effective. LOL

Adjusting to DPR is a bit trickier, considering it's pretty much all martial classes can do. But by all means, if it's a problem, adapt to it as well. I have GMed for a TWFing Pistolero Gunslinger in the past, and while I did have to take it into consideration when planning encounters, it wasn't any more troublesome than, say... The Cleric, the Paladin or even the Ranger/Monk.

So, yeah, adjusting to DPR is possible. And okay, if that's the problem. Personally, I never had any problem with high DPR characters either, especially when DPR is all they do (cough cough... Gunslinger... cough...). Hell! Even a Gunslinger's DPR is pretty easy to counter!

When I say that the game forces players into 2-handed and archery build, it's not because those builds are too powerful, but because the other options are so weak (or at least, vastly inferior to those two).

I suppose we could all nerf CR-appropriate enemies to make the guy who wants to use crossbows, thrown weapons, TWF and/or dueling feel better, but I'd rather see those combat styles improved instead of downgrading encounters to their level.


Stephen Ede wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
The numbers on the favorites poll a few posts down from the OP are pretty damning. Wonder if the Developers will see that.
I haven't been using the favourites but if you think it's important I'll go through and favourite all the posts I liked (other than my own that is). :-)

He means these three posts.

Pretty much, 175 people agree the nerf was not best, while 34 say it's good. Of those 175, 109 say the feat should not have been nerfed at all. So that means that, as of this post, the majority is saying the feat should have been left alone.

And as was pointed out early on, by nature the people who hate a change are the most active. So we have 109 of 210 think the feat should've been left alone. Honestly, that's a lose for the "feat should've been left alone". If that's all you can get and the Designers pay attention to it (which I hope they do) then you won't see the nerf removed. What you will hopefully see is the nerf reduced significantly, since that would be looking at a 176 of 210, and that's the point where you are looking at a significant ratio (not overwhelming, and I'm saying this as a person who supports reducing the Nerf, but definitely significant).

Edited when I realised I hadn't put my vote in. :-)

I never said it was a significant majority :P

But it should give designers an idea that the nerf was too much, at least.


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Stephen Ede wrote:

Just for interest because someone mentioned Balors I did the Math for a Balor going 1 to 1 with the Crane Wing PC in my game.

11th lev character. When Defensive Fighting is AC = 49
The Best Sword hits on 18, the Best Whip on 19 and the rest 20's

The chance of him getting a single hit in a round is 32.6%.
The chance of getting 2+ hits in a round is 8.2%

So Crane Wing reduces the chance of this (admittedly tough) 11th level PC taking damage going 1 to 1 vs a Balor CR 20 from 40.8% per round down to 8.2%.

Now admittedly if the Balor can successfully use his Greater Dispell to knock out Mage Armour (not sure if that's with Bark Skin up) then things improve somewhat with the 1st attacks having better odds, but that's not a guaranteed success, and the Player can just recast Mage Armour.

The rest of the spells will probably be saved against.

Why the hell would a Balor go toe to toe with your PC? After 1 round a Balor would change tactics. Have you taken a look at the Balor's abilities? It doesn't give one single f+&* about Crane Wing, or your PC's defenses.

Your PC will never hit that Balor (so the Balor doesn't care about the PC really), but if he wanted your PC dead what he'd do is summon a Merelith to keep your PC busy and then cast Greater Dispel Magic to knock out your PCs buff spells, and then spam Dominate Monster.

What's your PC's will save? That DC 27 is no joke.

I'd love to see your PC's sheet, but my guess is, the Balor wins the fight hands down in 4 rounds or less.


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Change not needed. But then again, monks did have something cool, so I guess that had to be taken away.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Change wasn't needed, it was balanced and acceptable. This retroactive crap irritates me.

Shadow Lodge

Journ-O-LST-3 wrote:
Change not needed. But then again, monks did have something cool, so I guess that had to be taken away.

Hahaha, this made me laugh. So true, so true. lol


Please vote on page 1. I really want to see the numbers at the end of all this.


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Stephen Ede wrote:

Just for interest because someone mentioned Balors I did the Math for a Balor going 1 to 1 with the Crane Wing PC in my game.

11th lev character. When Defensive Fighting is AC = 49
The Best Sword hits on 18, the Best Whip on 19 and the rest 20's

The chance of him getting a single hit in a round is 32.6%.
The chance of getting 2+ hits in a round is 8.2%

So Crane Wing reduces the chance of this (admittedly tough) 11th level PC taking damage going 1 to 1 vs a Balor CR 20 from 40.8% per round down to 8.2%.

Now admittedly if the Balor can successfully use his Greater Dispell to knock out Mage Armour (not sure if that's with Bark Skin up) then things improve somewhat with the 1st attacks having better odds, but that's not a guaranteed success, and the Player can just recast Mage Armour.

The rest of the spells will probably be saved against.

Those require you to ignore a good portion of the Balor entry.

Why would the Balor be that close? Teleport away, summon a demon to keep you distracted, firestorm to soften you up, then smack you with the vorpal whip. At its attack bonus level, it's going to hit you, even with that AC, probably two or three times a round. Your character would never be able to get close enough for long enough to be a danger to it, and eventually it would either crit and take your character's head off, the other demon would kill you, or the sheer damage would.

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Removed some personal sniping. Please revisit the messageboard rules.


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Crane Wing was perfectly balanced before they errataed it, it is now useless.

the ability to autodeflect a single melee attack per round wasn't too bad, even if you could also deflect melee touch attacks with it. the real issue, was not with the feat, but with poor encounter design and poor monster tactics.

it used to be one of the few things keeping unarmed and dervish dance builds viable. neither of which have the damage of a 2hander or archer.

it's not the original feat that was problematic, it's that it was often combined with characters whom maximized their armor class at the expense of offense and the DM's lack of ability to go around the character and realize, that they don't need to down the survivor to feel they challenged the party, crane style monks were not walls, they were selfish survivors.

but monks and rogues are the two classes that keep getting nerfed beyond everyone else.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:

Just for interest because someone mentioned Balors I did the Math for a Balor going 1 to 1 with the Crane Wing PC in my game.

11th lev character. When Defensive Fighting is AC = 49
The Best Sword hits on 18, the Best Whip on 19 and the rest 20's

The chance of him getting a single hit in a round is 32.6%.
The chance of getting 2+ hits in a round is 8.2%

So Crane Wing reduces the chance of this (admittedly tough) 11th level PC taking damage going 1 to 1 vs a Balor CR 20 from 40.8% per round down to 8.2%.

Now admittedly if the Balor can successfully use his Greater Dispell to knock out Mage Armour (not sure if that's with Bark Skin up) then things improve somewhat with the 1st attacks having better odds, but that's not a guaranteed success, and the Player can just recast Mage Armour.

The rest of the spells will probably be saved against.

Why the hell would a Balor go toe to toe with your PC? After 1 round a Balor would change tactics. Have you taken a look at the Balor's abilities? It doesn't give one single f&&~ about Crane Wing, or your PC's defenses.

Your PC will never hit that Balor (so the Balor doesn't care about the PC really), but if he wanted your PC dead what he'd do is summon a Merelith to keep your PC busy and then cast Greater Dispel Magic to knock out your PCs buff spells, and then spam Dominate Monster.

What's your PC's will save? That DC 27 is no joke.

I'd love to see your PC's sheet, but my guess is, the Balor wins the fight hands down in 4 rounds or less.

Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.

He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a
Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.
As a 1st lev Cleric he can cast Protection from evil. He can cast Mage Armour as a sorcerer spell. So basically it may well come down to whether the Balor can pull of a Dispell Magic + Dominate sucessfully before he runs out of hit points.
He also has a curse that allows me (the GM) to kick in rage as per the Spell as an Extrodinary ability when I feel like it. Will to resist, but I would be cheating if I said it wouldn't kick in at this time. So that increases his Will save by another point, albeit at a cost of 2 from AC.


MagusJanus wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:

Just for interest because someone mentioned Balors I did the Math for a Balor going 1 to 1 with the Crane Wing PC in my game.

11th lev character. When Defensive Fighting is AC = 49
The Best Sword hits on 18, the Best Whip on 19 and the rest 20's

The chance of him getting a single hit in a round is 32.6%.
The chance of getting 2+ hits in a round is 8.2%

So Crane Wing reduces the chance of this (admittedly tough) 11th level PC taking damage going 1 to 1 vs a Balor CR 20 from 40.8% per round down to 8.2%.

Now admittedly if the Balor can successfully use his Greater Dispell to knock out Mage Armour (not sure if that's with Bark Skin up) then things improve somewhat with the 1st attacks having better odds, but that's not a guaranteed success, and the Player can just recast Mage Armour.

The rest of the spells will probably be saved against.

Those require you to ignore a good portion of the Balor entry.

Why would the Balor be that close? Teleport away, summon a demon to keep you distracted, firestorm to soften you up, then smack you with the vorpal whip. At its attack bonus level, it's going to hit you, even with that AC, probably two or three times a round. Your character would never be able to get close enough for long enough to be a danger to it, and eventually it would either crit and take your character's head off, the other demon would kill you, or the sheer damage would.

I've responded about the other abilities, but regards the hitting 2-3 times a turn in melee.

Did you not read what I wrote. With Crane Wing the Balor is reduced to hitting with 1 or more attacks 8.2% of the time from a full Attack! I've done the maths on it. I can give the numbers in detail if you like.


Stephen Ede wrote:


Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.
He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.
As a 1st lev Cleric he can cast Protection from evil. He can cast Mage Armour as a sorcerer spell. So basically it may well come down to whether the Balor can pull of a Dispell Magic + Dominate sucessfully before he runs out of hit points.
He also has a curse that allows me (the GM) to kick in rage as per the Spell as an Extrodinary ability when I feel like it. Will to resist, but I would be cheating if I said it wouldn't kick in at this time. So that increases his Will save by another point, albeit at a cost of 2 from AC.

I'm confused. Round 1 Balor summons Vrolikai Demon who then quickens an Enervation. Then it at will Enervation. So you have a -5 to your saves, attack bonus and lost 25 hp.

Round 2 The Vrolikai quickens Enervation and Enervates again. Then the Blasphemy comes when you have a -10 to your saves.

Round 3 You die from Negative levels or Power Word Stun.


Quote:

Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.

He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a
Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.

Even putting aside that a silver dragon is by no means a normal PC, if you like, you can PM me and we'll hop on mIRC sometime this week and I'll run a balor encounter for your Crane silver dragon.

If your grand plan is to get into melee with a balor and then slay it with your +19 attack bonus, I can already tell you the result, though. You'll lose.

Heck, with a high teens Fort save the balor could stand immobile for the entire fight, and by trying to hit it you would likely paralyze yourself with failed saves against its DC 26 unholy aura before you dealt enough damage to kill it, since you're going to need many, many rounds of attacking.

If it stood still the entire fight and let you hit it.

The only thing preventing that outcome from happening, as other posters have pointed out, is that against a real balor the balor would kill you in any of a dozen horrible ways long before you could rack up enough failed Fortitude saves vs. Str damage to paralyze yourself.


Stephen Ede wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:

Just for interest because someone mentioned Balors I did the Math for a Balor going 1 to 1 with the Crane Wing PC in my game.

11th lev character. When Defensive Fighting is AC = 49
The Best Sword hits on 18, the Best Whip on 19 and the rest 20's

The chance of him getting a single hit in a round is 32.6%.
The chance of getting 2+ hits in a round is 8.2%

So Crane Wing reduces the chance of this (admittedly tough) 11th level PC taking damage going 1 to 1 vs a Balor CR 20 from 40.8% per round down to 8.2%.

Now admittedly if the Balor can successfully use his Greater Dispell to knock out Mage Armour (not sure if that's with Bark Skin up) then things improve somewhat with the 1st attacks having better odds, but that's not a guaranteed success, and the Player can just recast Mage Armour.

The rest of the spells will probably be saved against.

Those require you to ignore a good portion of the Balor entry.

Why would the Balor be that close? Teleport away, summon a demon to keep you distracted, firestorm to soften you up, then smack you with the vorpal whip. At its attack bonus level, it's going to hit you, even with that AC, probably two or three times a round. Your character would never be able to get close enough for long enough to be a danger to it, and eventually it would either crit and take your character's head off, the other demon would kill you, or the sheer damage would.

I've responded about the other abilities, but regards the hitting 2-3 times a turn in melee.

Did you not read what I wrote. With Crane Wing the Balor is reduced to hitting with 1 or more attacks 8.2% of the time from a full Attack! I've done the maths on it. I can give the numbers in detail if you like.

Did you read the part of my post about "taking your character's head off?"

It doesn't matter your character can block one attack per round... especially when said character will be getting pounded on by the Balor and another demon as well (which means your character will probably not be blocking those Balor attacks just due to dealing with the more immediate, up-close threat). Because, why would you waste time blocking the balor's attacks when you have a marilith smacking you around with six longswords and its tail?

So, you tell me... which of the 11 attacks per round are you negating?

Yeah, the Balor won't hit you much... but he doesn't need to.


Scavion wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:


Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.
He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.
As a 1st lev Cleric he can cast Protection from evil. He can cast Mage Armour as a sorcerer spell. So basically it may well come down to whether the Balor can pull of a Dispell Magic + Dominate sucessfully before he runs out of hit points.
He also has a curse that allows me (the GM) to kick in rage as per the Spell as an Extrodinary ability when I feel like it. Will to resist, but I would be cheating if I said it wouldn't kick in at this time. So that increases his Will save by another point, albeit at a cost of 2 from AC.

I'm confused. Round 1 Balor summons Vrolikai Demon who then quickens an Enervation. Then it at will Enervation. So you have a -5 to your saves, attack bonus and lost 25 hp.

Round 2 The Vrolikai quickens Enervation and Enervates again. Then the Blasphemy comes when you have a -10 to your saves.

Round 3 You die from Negative levels or Power Word Stun.

Summons is a 1 round action. Not to mention any inmunity to negatve energy a defense character could have.


Nicos wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:


Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.
He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.
As a 1st lev Cleric he can cast Protection from evil. He can cast Mage Armour as a sorcerer spell. So basically it may well come down to whether the Balor can pull of a Dispell Magic + Dominate sucessfully before he runs out of hit points.
He also has a curse that allows me (the GM) to kick in rage as per the Spell as an Extrodinary ability when I feel like it. Will to resist, but I would be cheating if I said it wouldn't kick in at this time. So that increases his Will save by another point, albeit at a cost of 2 from AC.

I'm confused. Round 1 Balor summons Vrolikai Demon who then quickens an Enervation. Then it at will Enervation. So you have a -5 to your saves, attack bonus and lost 25 hp.

Round 2 The Vrolikai quickens Enervation and Enervates again. Then the Blasphemy comes when you have a -10 to your saves.

Round 3 You die from Negative levels or Power Word Stun.

Summons is a 1 round action. Not to mention any inmunity to negatve energy a defense character could have.

Supernatural abilities are standard actions unless explicitly stated otherwise. Even if it did, the Balor isn't dying in 4 rounds.

He didn't state he did. The Balor has True Seeing and can adjust tactics easily.


Scavion wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:


Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.
He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.
As a 1st lev Cleric he can cast Protection from evil. He can cast Mage Armour as a sorcerer spell. So basically it may well come down to whether the Balor can pull of a Dispell Magic + Dominate sucessfully before he runs out of hit points.
He also has a curse that allows me (the GM) to kick in rage as per the Spell as an Extrodinary ability when I feel like it. Will to resist, but I would be cheating if I said it wouldn't kick in at this time. So that increases his Will save by another point, albeit at a cost of 2 from AC.

I'm confused. Round 1 Balor summons Vrolikai Demon who then quickens an Enervation. Then it at will Enervation. So you have a -5 to your saves, attack bonus and lost 25 hp.

Round 2 The Vrolikai quickens Enervation and Enervates again. Then the Blasphemy comes when you have a -10 to your saves.

Round 3 You die from Negative levels or Power Word Stun.

I will admit I was ignoring the Summon abilities because Ussually Balors on the Material Plane are there by some method that denies the Summon Demon ability.

That said your Vrolikai still has to hit with the Enervation. Less than 50% chance.


Scavion wrote:


Supernatural abilities are standard actions unless explicitly stated otherwise. Even if it did, the Balor isn't dying in 4 rounds.

He didn't state he did. The Balor has True Seeing and can adjust tactics easily.

It state it work like the spell, so yes 1 round casting.


Stephen Ede wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:


Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.
He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.
As a 1st lev Cleric he can cast Protection from evil. He can cast Mage Armour as a sorcerer spell. So basically it may well come down to whether the Balor can pull of a Dispell Magic + Dominate sucessfully before he runs out of hit points.
He also has a curse that allows me (the GM) to kick in rage as per the Spell as an Extrodinary ability when I feel like it. Will to resist, but I would be cheating if I said it wouldn't kick in at this time. So that increases his Will save by another point, albeit at a cost of 2 from AC.

I'm confused. Round 1 Balor summons Vrolikai Demon who then quickens an Enervation. Then it at will Enervation. So you have a -5 to your saves, attack bonus and lost 25 hp.

Round 2 The Vrolikai quickens Enervation and Enervates again. Then the Blasphemy comes when you have a -10 to your saves.

Round 3 You die from Negative levels or Power Word Stun.

I will admit I was ignoring the Summon abilities because Ussually Balors on the Material Plane are there by some method that denies the Summon Demon ability.

That said your Vrolikai still has to hit with the Enervation. Less than 50% chance.

Touch AC? The Vrolikai has a +25 Ranged touch Attack.


Scavion wrote:
Touch AC? The Vrolikai has a +25 Ranged touch Attack.

I did not pay attention, what level is the monk.?


Nicos wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Touch AC? The Vrolikai has a +25 Ranged touch Attack.
I did not pay attention, what level is the monk.?

Level 11.


Nicos wrote:
Scavion wrote:


Supernatural abilities are standard actions unless explicitly stated otherwise. Even if it did, the Balor isn't dying in 4 rounds.

He didn't state he did. The Balor has True Seeing and can adjust tactics easily.

It state it work like the spell, so yes 1 round casting.

With a +19 to hit having to punch through AC 36 and DR 15, that's not likely to be disrupted, so the full round seems unlikely to present much of a barrier.

This is a vast digression however. The character in question is so thoroughly outmatched that there's nothing to learn about the balance of the Crane feats. It's going to get so curbstomped either way that you wouldn't be able to tell any difference between the encounter with the old Crane Wing in place or the new.

So I repeat the encouragement to take it to PMs if Stephen feels the need to have that demonstrated.


Nicos wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Touch AC? The Vrolikai has a +25 Ranged touch Attack.
I did not pay attention, what level is the monk.?

Apparently the character is an 11th level 1/2 young silver dragon with a level in cleric and some other stuff with crane style.


Coriat wrote:
Quote:

Will save low 20's, Reflex high teens, fort inbetween, and he has Evasion and Fire Reistance from a Lesser Helm of Brillance. If that cooks off things get dicey.

He's a Silver Dragon - 1/2 Very Young (hasn't finished growing into it). With old style Crane Wing I would expect the fight to be long and hard. When Defensively fighting he only has about +19/20 to hit. He would be hampered by not having found a
Chill Touch Spell Page to buy yet. He has a couple of Hero points. + a Ring of Freedom of movement.

Even putting aside that a silver dragon is by no means a normal PC, if you like, you can PM me and we'll hop on mIRC sometime this week and I'll run a balor encounter for your Crane silver dragon.

If your grand plan is to get into melee with a balor and then slay it with your +19 attack bonus, I can already tell you the result, though. You'll lose.

Heck, with a high teens Fort save the balor could stand immobile for the entire fight, and by trying to hit it you would likely paralyze yourself with failed saves against its DC 26 unholy aura before you dealt enough damage to kill it, since you're going to need many, many rounds of attacking.

If it stood still the entire fight and let you hit it.

The only thing preventing that outcome from happening, as other posters have pointed out, is that against a real balor the balor would kill you in any of a dozen horrible ways long before you could rack up enough failed Fortitude saves vs. Str damage to paralyze yourself.

Was trying to work out where the Strength Drain came from then saw the Unholy Aura. Yeah, not so much. I mentioned the curse. He's sort of slipped of the LG area. More LN alignment so the Unholy Aura won't be doing much. I will contact the player and see if he's interested. I don't have the full specs for him. Just remember the stuff he crows about.

Yep, he is non standard. I did say he was "tough lev 11". :-)


The main point stands that just using the Melee abilities, which are pretty impressive, the Balor would easily win against the AC of the Silver Dragon PC, but by adding Crane Wing it turns that into an almost certain loss unless he switches to spell casting. And the fact that he would need to go to spell casting to me says something wrong.

I would note that the Balor prefers Melee combat (the description makes that very clear) so comments about the Balor avoiding Melee combat would be blatant metagaming. Indeed it says the Balor uses it's spell casting on those that try and avoid melee combat.

Quote:

A balor typically commands vast legions of demons, and while it often lets these slavering and eager minions fight its battles, the balor is far from a coward. If presented with an opportunity to join a fight, few balors choose to resist.

In combat, a balor relies upon its spell-like abilities to fight foes wise enough to avoid melee range, favoring destructive powers like fire storm or implosion and saving dominate monster for use against the rare foe it would prefer to capture alive. A balor usually uses telekinesis to disarm ranged weapons or pull foes into melee—with the use of a quickened telekinesis, a balor can use the latter tactic and still inflict a full-round attack on a hapless foe. A balor reduced to fewer than 50 hit points almost always seeks to flee via teleportation, but if that and flight prove impossible it seeks to position itself such that, if it is slain, its death throes are as devastating as possible to the enemy host.


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Stephen Ede wrote:
Things about a SILVER DRAGON WITH CRANE STYLE

So, your Dragon PC is cursed with something that gives them BONUS to their main combat attributes...

That poor fellow.

As long as we're just making up non-standard characters to pit against monsters who don't use their best abilities in a fight, for the sake of ridiculous anecdotal evidence, I have this idea for a 1/2 very young Balor monk with Crane style. He'd be cursed with occasionally breaking out in Protection From Good.

If the GM gets frustrated with my character it's probably Crane Wing's fault.

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