Is it worth it? I am not totally convinced the Dragon Bloodline is all that good, to be honest. Claws for a Sorcerer are pretty... Meh.
However, it DOES feel like the PRC is much better suited for a Sorcerer, unlike that joke of a PRC in 3.5. Except for the strength bonus.
there are a bunch of decent builds for dragon disciples... like imbicatus said, they're really designed generally to be melee primarily with magic for support.
my friend had a fighter 4/bard 1/DD. he was really effective. the archaeologist archetype is great with the fate's favored trait and lingering performance and/or extra performance is great. he also took eldritch heritage and improved eldritch heritage[orc] and had a crazy strength.
and i've had two different 'dragonknights' both of which were fun and pretty effective. one was pally 2/silver dragon sorc 4/DD. the other was a base aasimar who started pally 2/gold dragon sorc 1 then took 2 eldritch knight levels, followed by 4 dragon disciple levels, and then leveled as an EK the rest of the time (never had to decide what would have happened with the last 3 levels); its obviously not a pure DD build but it has a lot of DD flavor and through 17th level only loses 2 BAB and casts as a sorc of level-4 (plus has the extra Str and draconic stuff).
It's a gish PRC and it's a fairly effective one. The claws and strength bonus both help to fill that role so it's actually quite fitting.
As a caster, you usually focus on buffs, touch attacks, or blaster to work in tandem with the melee ability. If you wanted to be another type of caster, there are certainly better builds than this PRC (though you can certainly do whatever you wish and probably be effective enough).
I actually went full Sorcerer to start as a Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Paladin 2. It has a weak beginning if you plan on playing the character the same way with bloodline claws as a sorcerer, but came into its own and dominated later on.
I had no problem whatsoever soloing CR 20 creatures with natural attacks.
Personally for me the Dragon Disciple is not a Prestige that is meant to go all in for.
As Theconiel said, a Dragobarian is a powerful enemy, seeing as it is really easy to stack the strength bonuses from raging, DD, and enlarge person.
Sorcs can go into it and not lose out on much of their bloodline.
I feel that even with the changes allowing SLA's to qualify for DD, it still falls a bit flat when compared to some of the more recent PRC's.
So, yes the DD is not that good on it's own merits, but for a quick 2 or 3 level dip for some power it's not that bad.
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It's not worth it for a pure spellcasting sorc. It is fantastic for a sorc/bard/summoner who wants to gish or for melee classes who want to add some magic and a lot of bonus stregnth.It's not a bad choice for a pure draconic sorcerer who is willing to trade a bit of magic for enhanced survivability and having a bit more "dragon" in his or her sorcerer.
True, and magical knack makes it less painful. However, sorcerer has slow access to spells already, and the further delayed spell levels really hurt.
Between early entry and esoteric training it can be done, yes, but there may be better/easier ways to do it.
Aasimar Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / EK 10 / DD 8 and (with Esoteric Training and Magical Knack) end up with 9th level spells as a 20th level caster and a BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3 not to mention 11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12.
You could also go Arcanist straight in to DD with no other dips at all.
True, and magical knack makes it less painful.
It's true and worth seconding that Magical Knack is practically a requirement for Dragon Disciple.
However, sorcerer has slow access to spells already, and the further delayed spell levels really hurt.
I hear this all the time from arrogant wizards who think that spell access is why they're godly. Usually it's right before their brains get bashed in.
It's not worth it for a pure spellcasting sorc. It is fantastic for a sorc/bard/summoner who wants to gish or for melee classes who want to add some magic and a lot of bonus stregnth.
A summoner would be a bad choice for a dragon disciple. A synthesist loses the strength bonus when his "suit" is on, and any other archetype would lose too much eidolon power.
If I were building a dragon disciple, I would go with giving him as many full BAB class levels and as few actual caster levels as possible. You lose too many caster levels to be able to keep up as a spallcaster, so don't even try. Instead, focus your spells on personal buffs and other no save spells that are not harmed too badly by your lack of caster levels.
Between bard and sorcerer, I think I might actually favor bard as the spellcaster class since you would be able to wear light armor and not risk arcane spell failure. I might even consider a one level dip into oracle (either lore or nature mystery) for a major AC boost at a cost of one point of BAB. If you make paladin your full BAB class, you would have formidable defenses but would need to find ways to shore up your offensive power.
As for early entry, I have no idea how you would manage that. The Dragon Disciple only requires the ability to cast 1st level spells, and the casting advancement is useless without at least one level of a spontaneous arcane class. As far as I know, there is no way to meet skill rank requirements early, so 6th level is the earliest level at which you could manage to take a level of dragon disciple.
Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.
I'm pretty sure that means you can have the skill ranks by 3, first DD level at 4.
Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.
I'm pretty sure that means you can have the skill ranks by 3, first DD level at 4.
That is from 3.5. In pathfinder, your max ranks in a skill is equal to your HD, but every class skill gets a +3 if you have at least one skill rank in it.
People are willing to take that hit in order to get the juiciness of cross-blooded.
If you want the juiciness of cross-blooded, you dip 1 level in it, go into Wizard or Witch to also get their juiciness, with just 1 level delay like normal Sorcerors have vs. Wizards.
The drawbacks of DD delayed casting progression and Cross Blooded -1 Spell Known just aren't really that equivalent. Casting Progression Delay continues to add up the deeper you get into the PrC, -1 Spell Known doesn't escalate. Cross Blooded still has otherwise normal progression with full spell levels and spell slots... You can easily alleviate the -1 Spell Known with Feats or Items like Mnemonic Vests or Pages/Rings of Spell Knowledge. DD delayed caster progression just can't be fixed.
The OP seems to approach the PrC as something for "a Sorceror". To the contrary, I think DD works best as something for "a Melee Class with 1 level of Sorceror" (or Bard). Quite a difference there between those two concepts. Interestingly, Paizo ended up making a Full Base Class out of the same concept as DD (just expanded to work with all Sorceror Bloodlines), called the Bloodrager (it is also based off the Barbarian on the melee side). I would say that base class is vastly closer to "Barbarian with 1 level of Sorceror + DD" than to "full Sorceror + DD".
That is from 3.5. In pathfinder, your max ranks in a skill is equal to your HD, but every class skill gets a +3 if you have at least one skill rank in it.Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.
I'm pretty sure that means you can have the skill ranks by 3, first DD level at 4.
I dug a bit deeper, and you're correct:
You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. Level 6 is in fact the earliest you can enter DD.
I wish Cavalier had some more abilities that made actual use of CHA score, seems appropriate, yet oddly lacking.
I guess you could combine Cavalier/Bard/DD with the "Cav/Bard hybrid" Battle Herald PrC, although I'm not sure how well that works out.
The thing about the Paladin build is that PrC'ing out means you have very few Smites.
If you do go 4 levels in, you do get Channel Energy, which qualifies you for Channel Smite, as a stand-in for Smite damage.
This isn't a DD build, but for a versatile gish a Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 build would end up with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.
Heck they'd still be able to cast level 9 spells at 20 even without Esoteric training...and they'd get it at level 17 with it! Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter. Not bad at all.
*Note, you’d need to do something to get an extra +1d6 in sneak attack to qualify for Arcane Trickster. Pending what’s allowed at your table, this might derail this build. The simplest solution is to go 1 level of Assassin or Vivisectionist; or go Fighter 1/Wizard 1 / Rogue 3 / AT 10 / EK 5 which would get it done, but play much differently.
Also, in another thread Nate Lange posted a couple of builds that blew my mind:
although... if you're taking Scion of Humanity
Oracle 8/DD 8/Holy Vindicator 4:: this requires picking up Racial Heritage [kobold]... i know, that sounds crazy- it actually opens up a couple interesting dragon-related feats, and one called Scaled Disciple that lets you do DD as an oracle instead of a Sorcerer. you have to choose Life for your mystery (for HV), but you end up with +16 BAB (full iteration), CL 16 with no traits/feats (if you can take that Esoteric Training that ecw mentioned you'd be at CL 19 with 9th level spells), all the abilities of an 8th level oracle (14th for curse) with 12th level channeling (15th, if you buy a phylactery), and all the powers of an 8th level sorc/DD (12th if you buy the robe), plus 4 levels worth of HV stuff- including proficiency with all martial weapons and all armor (which you can wear with no ASF%); the hp are slightly lower (8d8+4d10+8d12) but it should be a fun build with great offense/defense for a healer, lol.barb or ranger 1/witch 4/DD 8/EK 7::
make an Agathion or Archon-blooded aasimar (even though it disqualifies early EK), this time take Racial Heritage [orc], then, after a level of ranger or barbarian, go Scarred Witch Doctor: strength or transformation patron, with the Swamp Hag hex (a lvl 1 SLA). take DD the old fashioned way, except with all your casting Con based (well... by old fashioned, i mean by qualifying with your hex SLA...). +16 BAB, 16 CL (19 with that Esoteric Training), all the DD stuff, and tons of HP (with your Con as your casting stat). of course, now that i think about... there's actually no need to make an aasimar- any race that can get a +2 to Con (and counts as an orc or qualifies for racial heritage) would work
How are you qualifying for AT with only 1d6 SA?
minor threadjack, but that advice from 'natelange' seems to be suggesting that 'casterlevel boosts' will progress spellcasting, i.e. giving access to higher spell levels. that just isn't true, as i thought is common knowledge to this game. the terminology is ridiculously confusing, but that's just a basic aspect of how 'casterlevel boosts' work. they basically just apply for scaling spell effects, SR/Dispel checks, and Concentration checks.
@Morgen: Ah, I did forget that a few Orders do actually leverage CHA to a greater extent, although it's weird that they don't ALL do so in some way, and that it is so 'buried' in the class. Actually, Order of the Star also leverages CHA, and I would say that it does so in a more powerful way than the Order of the Lion, although the non-CHA linked Attack bonus (fixed to +1) being usable unlimited times/day might make it more attractive over-all. Neither one's higher level abilities (e.g. 8th level) are likely relevant to a DD build, unless one is talking of basically a DD dip with mostly Cav levels.
Re: a Cav/DD build, I think it's worth pointing out that Samurai's Resolve ability (allowing Condition removal ala Paladin Mercy) has similar usages to Cavalier Tactician, except it is also 'rechargeable' when you defeat the target of Challenge... Which seems extra relevant if you aren't taking many levels in the base class, and want to maximize your effective usages/day. Not really sure why that difference exists, perhaps just because it's a good idea yet Paizo don't like issuing 'rules change' Errata to catch the Cav up with the Samurai (?). Samurai with Lion or Star Order is 100% legit (as are Cavs with the Samurai Orders).
How are you qualifying for AT with only 1d6 SA?
You are right, edited.
And Quandary, Nate is right, at least regarding Eclectic and Esoteric training, both things increase actual caster level, new spells and all:
It's from Inner Sea Magic page 22. Basically you can get +1 bonus to your caster level essentially effortlessly, and +3 to 1 class / +1 to another with some leg work. You gain fame by passing knowledge checks, deeds, or whatever your DM throws at you:
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
Things like Magical Knack and the Orange Ioun Stone, however, do *not* give access to new spells.
@ Quandary-
i have never actually played with the rules ecw just posted (i think they're in a golarion specific book that nobody i game with owns). in the other thread he quoted from, he had put them forth as options in his campaign and i proposed those builds specifically for him in that context. i can understand not wanting to use those rules but by RAW (if you are using them) those are valid builds with the correct casting information.
edit: i just noticed that he actually cited it (inner sea magic, pg 22)- well done ecw!
Thanks, those things do certainly work... I was probably misled by CL boosting 'Feats/Traits' initially being mentioned (when those are neither). It's misleading or not fully accurate to characterize those options as 'caster level' or 'actual caster level' boosts. Magical Knack does increase 'actual caster level', as 'caster level' is a distinct mechanical concept from spellcasting progression. Those options are simply boosting MORE than 'actual caster level'.
I think it is telling re: how badly named/undifferentiated the terms/mechanics of caster level/spellcasting progression are, that Paizo themself could not directly and succinctly refer to boosting spellcasting progression, but rather had to refer to caster level and specify the spellsknown/slots as well. Just making a note for things to fix in Pathfinder 2nd Edition.
If you're playing PFS (or can otherwise use those Fame options), those indeed are great things to aim for.
(are they PFS legal? that's just where I mainly associate Fame with)
Seems like my group is pretty much the only ones I know of who plays with them, at least I'm the most vocal proponent of them on the message boards!
It hasn't been breaking the game, though, since more spells doesn't equal more action economy...just more options. I make them pass the rolls for their 'exams' and do the odd side quest. I will say, all things being equal, it's probably a little too easy to get those levels, RAW. But any given GM can make it as hard as they want to accomplish, I suppose.
However, with the glowing exception of the Leadership feat, I try not to ban any official Paizo stuff at my table.
*And I'm not sure about PFS Qundary, I never play it. Probably so, though, since it's pretty easy to pull off and offset low level power loss for a game that's going to end at 12, anyways.
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I am currently playing a "suboptimal" Draconic Sorc 5/Dragon Disciple 7 blaster and I love it.
Character IS Crossblooded, and that has hurt a bit with spell choices and gaining new spells at certain levels, but it is hella fun.
Crossblooded Draconic/Elemental. Mostly AoE blasty, with semi-decent save DCs.
I know, I know...blasting sorc's are weak.
Its really a bunch of fun.
O, and character is a Kobold, for the best of all suboptimization.
@ Bomanz- lol, it takes some stones to show up at a table with a kobold; i applaud you.
Would Preferred Spell ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/preferred-spell ) meet the spontaneous casting requirement for a Magus to go this route?
For a strength based Magus with Shocking Grasp preferred (so obviously not too bothered about optimisation anyway), is it a terrible idea (picking up that Draconic bloodline power looks very tasty, and this seems worth more than a single level of sorcerer).
True, I don't see many kobolds, but I know of at least one Goblin that's a world-breaker
Throne it would, but so would any race with a level 1 arcane SLA.
Aasimar Magus 1 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Dragon Disciple 9 works RAW.
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Would Preferred Spell ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/preferred-spell ) meet the spontaneous casting requirement for a Magus to go this route?
For a strength based Magus with Shocking Grasp preferred (so obviously not too bothered about optimisation anyway), is it a terrible idea (picking up that Draconic bloodline power looks very tasty, and this seems worth more than a single level of sorcerer).
I don't think so. Preferred Spell allows you to cast a certain spell Spontaneously; this is like the clerical ability to spontaneously cast cures instead of other prepared spells.
DD requires that you can cast spells without preparation, which is not the same as spontaneous casting.
People are willing to take that hit in order to get the juiciness of cross-blooded. People take kensai for the hit on magic to enhance other aspects of the class. Going the DD route for a pure draconic sorcerer is simply another example of this. In exchange the dragon aspects of a draconic sorcerer do get a boost, it's a matter of choice if that is what one wants, just as there are benefits from staying single class pure.True, and magical knack makes it less painful. However, sorcerer has slow access to spells already, and the further delayed spell levels really hurt.It's not worth it for a pure spellcasting sorc. It is fantastic for a sorc/bard/summoner who wants to gish or for melee classes who want to add some magic and a lot of bonus stregnth.It's not a bad choice for a pure draconic sorcerer who is willing to trade a bit of magic for enhanced survivability and having a bit more "dragon" in his or her sorcerer.
You can take the cross blooded draconic/x and then roll into dragon disciple. The penalty of cross-blooded is partially alleviated by doing this.
Your overall casting is 1 level behind... and you have 1 less spell known at ever spell level. But! You still get your bloodline spells at the correct level, which for a pure sorc/dd is their character level. This means you get your bloodline spell known when you get your new spell level.
Fun times.
