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A character that can sneak, steal, disable traps, perhaps diplomance too (optional). Contributing to combat is also important, which class best suits this role?
A cursory look through the Pathfinder online materials makes me think it's "Trickery domain Cleric", as you get this:
-Bluff, Disguise, Stealth as class skills
-Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
-Master's Illusion (Sp): At 8th level, you can create an illusion that hides the appearance of yourself and any number of allies within 30 feet for 1 round per cleric level. This ability otherwise functions like the spell veil. The save DC to disbelieve this effect is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier. The rounds do not need to be consecutive.
-Domain Spells: 1st—disguise self, 2nd—invisibility, 3rd—nondetection, 4th—confusion, 5th—false vision, 6th—mislead, 7th—screen, 8th—mass invisibility, 9th—time stop.
Trickery Channel Divinity: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on Bluff, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks for 1 minute. Harm—Creatures gain a channel penalty on Perception and Sense Motive checks for 1 minute.
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And then there's this trait....
"Trap Finder"
-Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable Device checks, and that skill is always a class skill for you. In addition, you can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue.
Which stacks nicely with the divine spell "Find Traps"
This also works well with Inquisitor. Since they already have stealth as a class skill and a ton of skill points you can take another domain/inquisition instead of Trickery, such as one that lets you use WIS instead of CHA for social interaction skills.
What other classes are good for the archetype of a guy who sneaks around disabling traps?
-Ninja with Trapfinder?
-I've heard that Alchemists make fantastic sneaky stabby guys, but I'm not familiar with that class
Are there arcane ways of building sneaky/stabby/trap disabling guys too? Like some kind of bard or magus archetype.
A character that can sneak, steal, disable traps, perhaps diplomance too (optional). Contributing to combat is also important, which class best suits this role?
There are several options, and cleric isn't one of them - clerics get too few skill ranks, despite their spells.
The best options are (and for brevity's sake I'll skip on archetypes):
Rogue - this is, by archetype, the rogue's primary job, and he can do it. He has trapfinding for finding the traps, the skills to disable them, to diplomance, and sneak attack in a fight...
Ninja - technically a rogue archetype, the ninja is what the rogue wishes he could be. Take everything the rogue has and add mystic powers...
Ranger - the ranger is arguably the better scout, and with one trait (or archetype) he can disable traps as well as a rogue can. He's also a LOT better as a supporting fighter, especially the archer version. Ranger is pretty much the default for "party scout"...
Bard - the bard has a lot of skill ranks, like the ranger one trait (or archetype) gets him trapfinding, and he's an effective fighter. And he gets spells, and is the buffermeister for the rest of the party on top. Cersatile performance means that his skill-ranks go further than the rogue or ranger's.
Inquisitor - I said cleric wasn't a good idea, but inquisitor certainly IS. You get 2/3 cleric casting, all the skill ranks the cleric doesn't have, the domain, better weapon skills, buffs like Judgement and Bane to go with those weapons, and again one trait bags you Disable Device as a class skill.
These are the best scout options you have got. There are a few other options that may work well, though, especially if you want to try multi-classing:
Rogue/barbarian - everybody's favourite barbarian was a rogue! Give them intelligence, and dip a level or two of rogue for skills and Evasion, then go barbarian the rest of the way and you have an awesome scout who can trapfind and kick butt.
Monk - a monk can function as a scout, and is defensively a lot stronger than a rogue. He doesn't hit as hard, though, and he struggles to get the skill ranks enough to make it work with MAD being his big issue.
Cleric/rogue - it's a weird combination but it can work, following your idea above. But you need that level of rogue to get the skill ranks and proficiencies, and you have to keep dipping it. In effect, this ends up being inquisitor-lite, and why do that when you have the inquisitor?
I'd echo what andreww said above. Although for te ultimate rogue type character I like to use a rogue + sage sorcerer to eventually enter arcane trickster. I play one in my group and he had an answer for nearly any out of combat situation.
That Seeker Sorcerer looks fun to play. It's nice to have so many effective choices available for the thief archetype
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Please, you're not giving the Alchemist enough credit here. The guy gets most of the non face Rogue Skills, and with a single trait (Student of Philosophy) they can base Diplo and Bluff off of the Int, so there's no need for Cha at all, they've got the extracts to do anything a Rogue would want to do, and could even get sneak attack if you miss it.
Mindchemist Vivisectionist Alchemist with a one level dip in Pathfinder Delver at 6th.
Can disable magic traps without the trait.
Can take 10s on Stealth and Disable Device.
Can make all knowledge skills untrained and doubles his Int bonus to them.
Gets Sneak Attack full progression.
Tons of skill points with 6+int per level and Int being one of your main stats.
Access to Invisibility, Alter Self, Disguise Self, and many more handy sneaky magics
I'd go so far as to say this is THE sneaky, skillful, Rogue-like class in Pathfinder right now. And most likely most effective.
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Don't forget the summoner with the pet built as a rogue and use summons for combat.
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I'll second Lucio on the Archaeologist Bard. He gets an Improved trap finding (clever explorer works on all Perception checks, not just looking for traps), Archaeologist's Luck which can boost important skill checks, attacks, or saves, and a Spell list which has a rogues bent, plus several unique spells which focus on social situations.
For traits, I'd suggest either Vagabond Child or Nimble Fingers, Keen Mind to get Disable device as a class skill +1, and Fortune's Favored, which increases your Archaeologist's Luck bonus (and all other luck bonuses) by 1.
Race-wise, Aasimar can accelerate their luck progression to bet bigger a bigger bonus sooner, but that will cap out around lvl 12. Half Elves and Half Orcs can add 1 round of performance per level, which is useful since the Archaeologist doesn't get additional rounds with levels normally.
In regards to feats, Lingering Performance is a must have. It effectively triples your luck rounds, which means that if you are a half elf/orc, after a few levels you will have enough luck to always have it running in combat, and some extra for out of combat skill checks here and there.
The crypt breaker alchemist is pretty good too.
Mindchemist Vivisectionist Alchemist with a one level dip in Pathfinder Delver at 6th.
Can disable magic traps without the trait.
Can take 10s on Stealth and Disable Device.
Can make all knowledge skills untrained and doubles his Int bonus to them.
Gets Sneak Attack full progression.
Tons of skill points with 6+int per level and Int being one of your main stats.
Access to Invisibility, Alter Self, Disguise Self, and many more handy sneaky magicsI'd go so far as to say this is THE sneaky, skillful, Rogue-like class in Pathfinder right now. And most likely most effective.
You can't take these two archetypes together. Really wish you could but you can't. They both get rid of Mutagen.
You can't take these two archetypes together. Really wish you could but you can't. They both get rid of Mutagen.
Umm... Vivisectionist gets rid of bombs, not mutagen. In fact bombs are the only thing vivisectionist gives up. I usually see it paired with beastmorph for combat characters.
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To be perfectly honest, rogue is your best bet. Yes, it is considered sub-par, but you have listed, definitively, the things a rogue does, and asked what class to play to do them.
A character that can sneak, steal, disable traps, perhaps diplomance too (optional). Contributing to combat is also important, which class best suits this role?
Stealth is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it.
Slight of hand is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it.Disable device is a rogue class skill, they get trapfinding, and they have the skill points to take it.
Diplomacy is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it.
Rogues have a medium BAB, some martial weapon proficiencies, and sneak attack. Contributing to combat is really the only grey area here, but heavy investment of gear can help alleviate this. Also: use magic device is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it. Get a wand.
To be perfectly honest, rogue is your best bet. Yes, it is considered sub-par, but you have listed, definitively, the things a rogue does, and asked what class to play to do them.
A character that can sneak, steal, disable traps, perhaps diplomance too (optional). Contributing to combat is also important, which class best suits this role?Stealth is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it.
Slight of hand is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it.
Disable device is a rogue class skill, they get trapfinding, and they have the skill points to take it.
Diplomacy is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it.
Rogues have a medium BAB, some martial weapon proficiencies, and sneak attack. Contributing to combat is really the only grey area here, but heavy investment of gear can help alleviate this. Also: use magic device is a rogue class skill, and they have the skill points to take it. Get a wand.
Everything listed here is within the capabilities of the Mindchemist Vivisectionist Alchemist with a one level dip in Pathfinder Delver.
And then some.
Everything listed here is within the capabilities of the Mindchemist Vivisectionist Alchemist with a one level dip in Pathfinder Delver.
Also all within the power of the bard and his archetypes.
Don't forget the summoner with the pet built as a rogue and use summons for combat.
What pets are good for the thieving/scouting/flanking/trap-disarming* role?
*yeah "badger disarms trap by walking over it" is a D&D staple
Personally, I'd say the Archaeologist Bard is a better Rogue than a Rogue. Sure you don't get disable device as a class skill and can't disable magical traps, by default before level 6, but traits exist (especially this new one) which can solve this problem.
Don't forget the summoner with the pet built as a rogue and use summons for combat.What pets are good for the thieving/scouting/flanking/trap-disarming* role?
Eidolon! With skilled, preferably.
Much easier to send the army of badgers or ponies to their doom though. You can even do that on a wand.
I have to agree with the archeologist bard being the best sneak in the game. He has the best skills in the game for one reason. Archeologist Luck and Heroism stack. This means at 4th level you can get +4 (with Fate Favored) on all skills. Heroism is a 2nd level bard spell so is available earlier than for any other character. It also last 10 minutes per level so even at 4th level it lasts for 40 minutes.
Your best bet is to pick your spells so that saving throws are not important. Stick with mostly buff spells and you only need enough CHA to cast your spells so you can afford to put more points into other stats.
A Slyph actually makes an incredible archeologist bard especially at 9th level and above when they can pick up Wings of Air. Hard to catch a character who can fly, turn invisible, assume a gaseous form, and has misdirection going. Throw in some divination spells for like detect thoughts, clairvoyance, for scouting and gathering information and not much is going to be able to match you.
Lingering performance is almost required for an archeologist. A single extra performance with this feat means you will probably never run out of luck.
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I'll clarify by stating that I assumed the OP is not as familiar with the system as many other posters here, and that really what I meant by "best" was "easiest". It may be his or her first game, and many of the options listed may not be available. I generally assume people familiar with the system can dig through the options and build a character to do this broad of a role without asking the good folks on these boards.
I have a player I game with that would likely do worse with most of these options than the rogue simply because the ways they are better than a rogue are more complicated. He would likely forget many of the important features, making the end result, in effect, a rogue with (if it's even possible) even fewer class features.
Now if this assumption is not correct, the other posters here are right, and you should really be looking to play something other than a rogue. Of course, this is the fundamental issue with the rogue, which is even when what you want to play is exactly what the rogue is meant to do, other classes and archetypes do it better. I'll throw my vote for either a ranger with what will now be know as the trait, or an archaeologist bard, depending if you want to melee/ranged or spellcast.
Personally, I'd say the Archaeologist Bard is a better Rogue than a Rogue. Sure you don't get disable device as a class skill and can't disable magical traps, by default before level 6, but traits exist (especially this new one) which can solve this problem.
Lots of classes make better rogues than the rogue. Not necessarily better at being the dedicated trap-finder, but good enough at it that you don't need a rogue, and good at a load of other things besides that the rogue himself cannot do.
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The archivist bard is certainly my favorite; amazing bard song, great face powers, and the ability to disable traps. Makes more sense than rogues and such; their job is to buff party and debuff bad guys, and have stat points around int and cha... it's just easier if you don't sweat trying to be "good" at combat simply by making everyone else better (otherwise you get too multi-attribute dependent).
Beyond that, Urban Ranger if you want to be a combatant as well. Or as many have said the summoner does a great job of it.
The existence of this thread makes me want to cry. The character described in the title should have been ROGUE with no hesitation. Now Paizo has created several characters whose only purpose seems to be to make the rogue class obsolete.
Not quite; The rogue was obsoleted before they came up with stuff like the Archaeologist, the Ninja, the Alchemist, or ect. The reason they came up with these classes or archetypes were that people were dissatisfied with how lackluster the Rogue was, but they still wanted to play a roguish character. They couldn't very well rewrite a whole class, but these classes could fill the role the rogue could never do very well.
I'm not sure if obsolete is the right word. One of the big things before those archetypes was the way class list worked. Before cross class skills were awful, and to be honest this hurt everyone(even the rogue!) Now its less punishing and using in class skills is rewarding(which is what I'd call good design personally), but in turn the rogue isn't as good with skills comparatively. They did get a minor buff in rogue talents, but most rogue talents are just awful. Skills were already kind of iffy, in that spells can steal them really quickly and even outperform them(flight and invisibility... I'm looking at you.)
Oddly enough, the new classes that 'make the rogue class obsolete' aren't considered overpowered, but more on par. Something to think about is maybe the problem isn't so much with them stealing a role, but how well the rogue itself filled its own role. It doesn't get amazing skill energy or use, it doesn't get class skills, it lacks spells or the ability to really excel better than those guys who cast them, and that kind of leaves them in a bleh place. There were also some stealth nerfs, but that's probably best left out of the conversation.
The existence of this thread makes me want to cry. The character described in the title should have been ROGUE with no hesitation. Now Paizo has created several characters whose only purpose seems to be to make the rogue class obsolete.
You mean the bard and ranger didn't do it in core?
Seriously, though, the rogue is not obsolete, but he IS in need of a power-up. He either needs to be the outstanding best at what he does (he's not at the moment, other classes match and even beat him at it), or he needs more breadth to his focus, as the other skills classes do.
Give him a strong Fort save, and a rogue talent every level rather than every other level and he starts looking good again.
The existence of this thread makes me want to cry. The character described in the title should have been ROGUE with no hesitation. Now Paizo has created several characters whose only purpose seems to be to make the rogue class obsolete.You mean the bard and ranger didn't do it in core?
Seriously, though, the rogue is not obsolete, but he IS in need of a power-up. He either needs to be the outstanding best at what he does (he's not at the moment, other classes match and even beat him at it), or he needs more breadth to his focus, as the other skills classes do.
Give him a strong Fort save, and a rogue talent every level rather than every other level and he starts looking good again.
I'm not sure if it's the frequency of getting rogue-powers but rather the power level of the rogue powers. There are a lot of them that don't really do anything, since most GMs would allow what they provide, even without spending a talent. And even then, with the ones that do do something, they don't tend to be all that powerful. Basically, the rogue talents never seem to try to push the envelope with what they can do, the same way they've done with Barbarians' Rage Powers or even some feats. More of them will only result in more subpar abilities, where more powerful talents (a more difficult undertaking) would fix the problem.
Perhaps, but a lot of little powers can add up to a big effect, I have found.
Kirthfinder Rogue is the best I've seen. If you're not doing PFS, I'd look into it.
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The existence of this thread makes me want to cry. The character described in the title should have been ROGUE with no hesitation. Now Paizo has created several characters whose only purpose seems to be to make the rogue class obsolete.
Class is just a metagamey concept. My goal is to roleplay a cool thief character, so what he's capable of doing is more important than something written on the character sheet.