I'd wouldn't say the Rogue is "functional" past 10th level or so... He has too much trouble trying to survive to be actually useful in combat, and by then, they are far from being the most useful out-of-combat class.Not really. You just have to build them right.
Ah, right... I forgot you're the 2013 Rogue-Building World Champion. I'm sorry, Roges are not underpowered at all, it's obviously my fault...
And Bards don't need Int any more than Rogues do.
When I hear build it right it always makes me cringe.I'd wouldn't say the Rogue is "functional" past 10th level or so... He has too much trouble trying to survive to be actually useful in combat, and by then, they are far from being the most useful out-of-combat class.Not really. You just have to build them right.
When I see it, it says to me that some classes are less intuitive than others.
I'd wouldn't say the Rogue is "functional" past 10th level or so... He has too much trouble trying to survive to be actually useful in combat, and by then, they are far from being the most useful out-of-combat class.Not really. You just have to build them right.Ah, right... I forgot you're the 2013 Rogue-Building World Champion. I'm sorry, Roges are not underpowered at all, it's obviously my fault...
And Bards don't need Int any more than Rogues do.
There is a world of difference between underpowered and functional.
Also bards need more attributes than rogues.
On the other hand, they can go dervish dance and work pretty well. Bi stat dependency ftw?Bard would just be gimping herself with anything less than 14 and not putting most of their leveling points into cha. Their combat damage is about 1/3 of their kit. 1/3 being spells. 1/3 being skills with bard stuff adding to all of that. Focusing too much on one wrecks the triple threat.What's stopping a bard of focusing on Dex too? All he needs is Cha 14 and he's good to go. Hell, he can start with Cha 12 and be fine. He can also reduce his Wisdom to 8 without problem, since he has a good will save and can use Cha on Sense Motive checks.
"Able to be Dex-based" is not exclusively Rogue.
Bards should probably have some int too.
For archer bard you need dex, cha, con, int...
For melee bard you need str, dex, con, int, cha...Rogues definitely can afford int, so if you are "dumping" (as in 10) int then a rogue is now 4 skill points and bards have to wait until their third versatile performance before they overtake the rogue. (not counting knowledge skills because that was never within the rogues sphere of skills and is probably being done better by the wizard).
I don't see why a Bard needs Intelligence. Pageant of the Peacock + Bardic Knowledge negates needing any points in any knowledge skills while still being awesome at them, leaving you 6 points per level to fill in anything else as required. I always go for a lot of Cha myself, but it doesn't need to be terribly high; low DCs aren't important if you're focusing buffs instead of debuffs.
Bards should probably have some int too.
That's adding something in they have no class features that scale with though. They really shouldn't be pumping it like dexterity or charisma. They can, but they don't particularly have to. That's sort of like having a wizard pump his strength or charisma. No scaling class features, so not a really big reason to do it.
When I see it, it says to me that some classes are less intuitive than others.
Not a big fan of counterintuitive design or of designs that work like the class suggest but aren't really intuitive. Also sometimes when you hear that phrase it infers using things that are outside of the class, like dwarf for saves or human for skill points.
Without Int bards take a long time before they surpass rogue in skill points (because the rogue should be taking some int)
Without Int bards take a long time before they surpass rogue in skill points (because the rogue should be taking some int)
Eh... Not so much on rogues cranking intellect either. To be honest what they really appreciate is wisdom, imo.
Without Int bards take a long time before they surpass rogue in skill points (because the rogue should be taking some int)Eh... Not so much on rogues cranking intellect either. To be honest what they really appreciate is wisdom, imo.
Pretty much. Intelligence does nothing for a Rogue but give them more skill points on top of the 8 they already get. Hell, I'd consider dumping Int and being satisfied with a respectable 6 or 7 per level if it meant having a higher will save and/or having an additional 5% chance to hit.
Without Int bards take a long time before they surpass rogue in skill points (because the rogue should be taking some int)And con, and dex, and wis (they certainly can not dump this), and cha.
Cha because otehrwise the rogue is just plain better at social skills.
Rogue is plain better than Rogue?
Cha because otehrwise the rogue is just plain better at social skills.
One of the more awkward things I see a lot is people claim the rogue is great with social skills. Characters can be, but the rogue isn't really all that great unfortunately.
Rogue is plain better than Rogue?
Typo maybe. Clearly Rouge has the best effect on charisma.
Cha because otehrwise the rogue is just plain better at social skills.One of the more awkward things I see a lot is people claim the rogue is great with social skills. Characters can be, but the rogue isn't really all that great unfortunately.
I'm guessing he meant Bard.
Marthkus said Rogue should be getting some int, and Nicos completed with "And con, and dex, and wis (they certainly can not dump this), and cha".
Then, in the next line the meant Bard, but brain-farted and typed Rogue.
Hey who are you and what you have done with the lemmy that make fun joes about that kind of things?
Unnecessary... Rogues are already a joke. :D
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Ouch, Right in the skills.Hey who are you and what you have done with the lemmy that make fun joes about that kind of things?Unnecessary... Rogues are already a joke. :D
Funniest part is... Bards are better at Perform(Comedy) too! ;)
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When did the Rogue have any edge with Social Skills?
It has "rogue" written at the top of the character sheet. To a lot of people, that counts as a class feature.
I never understand why they keep giving rogue class features to other classes.
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I never understand why they keep giving rogue class features to other classes.
Well, it's not like the Rogue is making good use of them... >.<
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Cha because otehrwise the rogue is just plain better at social skills.One of the more awkward things I see a lot is people claim the rogue is great with social skills. Characters can be, but the rogue isn't really all that great unfortunately.
Obviously, you forgot about the amazing rogue talents like obfuscate story, steal the story and rumormonger. Especially rumormonger; who know high school girls were all level 10+ rogues?
I never understand why they keep giving rogue class features to other classes.Well, it's not like the Rogue is making good use of them... >.<
In the new book they have some New rogue talents. Good thing it doesn't work in reverse.
And only half-orcs use whips are drive caravans... this new book is weird.
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Obviously, you forgot about the amazing rogue talents like obfuscate story, steal the story and rumormonger. Especially rumormonger; who know high school girls were all level 10+ rogues?
In the new book they have some New rogue talents. Good thing it doesn't work in reverse.
You know... I felt a bit bad for my mean commentaries about Rogues... But seeing Rogue Talents like these, it's pretty obvious that making fun of Rogues is RAI.
Obviously, you forgot about the amazing rogue talents like obfuscate story, steal the story and rumormonger. Especially rumormonger; who know high school girls were all level 10+ rogues?In the new book they have some New rogue talents. Good thing it doesn't work in reverse.You know... I felt a bit bad for my mean commentaries about Rogues... But seeing Rogue Talents like these, it's pretty obvious that making fun of Rogues is RAI.
Always with the rogue jokes. But please, continue.
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I enjoy the fact that this topic is titled "Why the Rogue is Not Underpowered", and the discussion has come to the point where rogues are just being mocked. Then again, the original intent seems to have been more along the lines of "Rogues are on par with fighters", which also amounts to mocking rogues.
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Always with the rogue jokes. But please, continue.
I... I can't stop! It's like I failed my save against a compulsion effect! Maybe it's because as an 2nd level commoner, my Will save is about as awful as a Rogue's!
ARGH! I can't stop!
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When did the Rogue have any edge with Social Skills?It has "rogue" written at the top of the character sheet. To a lot of people, that counts as a class feature.
I hardly ever loudly laugh whilst online, but this made me shoot coffee out of my nose.
This is just so hilariously true, that I had to stop in the middle of cleaning up the coffee, just to chuckle to myself.
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It's just a theory, but I think one of the reasons some people take such a pleasure in exposing the rogue's weaknesses (and lack of strong points) is the fact that many rogues are played extremely obnoxiously.
Nah, most of the people complaining about the rogue are rogue players - or, at this point, former rogue players
Are the forums buggin out for other people too?
By the way, here you go Marthkus.
Auto spots and disables most traps. Takes 10s on Disable Device. Can Stealth respectably, but can use Invisibility in a pinch. Might acquire shadow armor.
Gadrick, the better Rogue
Human Vivisectionist Alchemist 9/Pathfinder Delver 1 20 Pointbuy
Traits: Deathtouched, Reincarnated
Str:10
Dex:18(20)(Ability score increases +2)
Con:14
Int:16(18)(+2 Human)
Wis:10
Cha:10
Feats:
1: Combat Expertise, Skill Focus(Bluff)
3: Weapon Finesse
5: Two Weapon Fighting
7: Two Weapon Feint
8: Skill Focus(Perception)
9: Improved Feint
Discoveries: Whatever you want, take infusion at some point though.
Gear:
+1 Agile Light Mace
+1 Agile Dagger
Cloak of Resistance +3
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves
+3 Mithril Chainshirt
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Ring of Protection +1
Wayfinder equipped with Clear Spindle
Approximately 4.6k gold remaining
Skills(92 points):
Acrobatics: +10(5 ranks)
Bluff: +21 (10 ranks)
Perception: +29 (10 ranks)
Kn.(History): +11 (4 ranks)
Disable Device: +25 (10 ranks)
Stealth: +18 (10 ranks)
UMD +13(10 ranks)
(33 points left for free)
DEFENSES
HP: 78
AC: 24(31 with Mutagen boosting Dex and Barkskin)
Fort:+9(+6 vs Poison) Ref:+9 Will:+6(Immune to possesions and mental control)
OFFENSES:
This guy gets completely outrageous with buffs.
Melee Attack Bonus: +10/+10/+5 (+6 BAB +1 Wpn +5 Dex)
Ranged Attack Bonus: +12/+6
Full Buffed Attack Bonus: +17/+17/+12 Breakdown: 6(BAB)+7(Dex)+1(Wpn)+2(Morale)+2(Invis)+1(Haste)
Buffs: Heroism, Mutagen, Haste, Greater Invisibility (He can supply himself with all of these)
Damage: 1d6+10+5d6, 1d6+10+5d6 and 1d4+10+5d6 or 1d4+10+5d6, 1d4+10+5d6 and 1d6+10+5d6 However one of these is likely to be dropped to feint.
Yeah, the forums are screwed up for me too.
Yes it seems that yesterdays posts have gone away.
Edit: to be clear my posts since friday morning are gone.
That trait is not a campaign trait from the upcoming Mummy's Mask campaign. It is from a Player Companion book.Traits > Campaign Traits > Mummy's Mask >
Trap FinderThe player companion book is doubling as the players guide to the mummy's mask.
The player's guides are free. Where are you getting your information?
@Humphrey: Thanks for the post. Yes it seems that most people don't think sneak attack is worth a feat, independent of the rogue's other issues. Perhaps I'll offer it to my players next campaign and see if they jump at it. I've always considered it to be worth a feat, but I could be wrong.
It is not really worth a feat. At best it would be worth a feat to a class that has a way to boost its attack bonus, and even then it would not be worth taking every level. The rogue would be better off with a scaling hit and damage boost every level, even if it was limited per day.
@Lemmy: Let's say you are a fighter, and it requires BAB +9 to get. Do you think you would incorporate Super Smack Attack into your build?For 1 feat? Probably. Having full BAB and Weapon Training means I don't need it to be functional, but it's a nice extra. Especially since I can afford to stand still and take a few hits.
Like I said, it's not that Sneak Attack is a horrible class feature. It's just not good enough to be your main offensive tool. It's simply not even close to being good enough to make up for the other problems with the Rogue class.
You add all the damage and then substract the DR.IIRC, there was a rule somewhere saying that secondary effects (such as SA) only take place if the initial hit deals at least 1 point of damage.
So if your Rogue deal 4 damage with his attack +5d6 SA, but the opponent has DR 5/-, he doesn't take SA damage because the attack itself failed to cause damage.
Lemmy that rule applies rider affects. SA is not a rider affect. It is just a boost to damage.
Yeah, that wasn't how it worked in 3.5. I was unaware that they changed it in PF.Yes, secondary effects like bleeding, poison or dazing assault. SA just add damage.
You add all the damage and then substract the DR.IIRC, there was a rule somewhere saying that secondary effects (such as SA) only take place if the initial hit deals at least 1 point of damage.
So if your Rogue deal 4 damage with his attack +5d6 SA, but the opponent has DR 5/-, he doesn't take SA damage because the attack itself failed to cause damage.
That is how it worked in 3.5. It did not change.
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Especially rumormonger; who know high school girls were all level 10+ rogues?
The highschool girl ability "rip out heart and stomp on it" alone obliterates the rogues sneak attack advantage!
Eyup. Was the same in 3.5
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actually isnt rumormonger worse than simply doing well in bluff?
i mean, since (with rumormonger) if they're using your bluff check to repeat something, that means someone can possibly pass that DC and discern it's a lie.
if you DONT have rumormonger, when someone repeats it they CANT fail at all (the interrogator cant tell they're lying), since they honestly believe that's the truth. said interrogator would have to speak to you directly to find out it's a lie via check, or go hunt down contrary evidence themselves.
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actually isnt rumormonger worse than simply doing well in bluff?
i mean, since (with rumormonger) if they're using your bluff check to repeat something, that means someone can possibly pass that DC and discern it's a lie.
if you DONT have rumormonger, when someone repeats it they CANT fail at all (the interrogator cant tell they're lying), since they honestly believe that's the truth. said interrogator would have to speak to you directly to find out it's a lie via check, or go hunt down contrary evidence themselves.
Rumormonger is a horrid ability because it puts mechanics to something that really shouldn't have them.
Because its in the game, no one but Rogues can start a rumor.
Or everyone can, its just the Rogue can't do it unless he has the talent. And hes worse at it.
Balance is always greater than the messageboards percieves it- Sun Tzu
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Balance is always greater than the messageboards percieves it- Sun Tzu
lots of players with firsthand experience percieves it thus and bring it to the attention of others on those message boards
~Me
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I want to compile a list of exactly what makes the rogue underpowered for the purpose of houseruling in my campaign. I'd make another thread, but I don't think we need another thread dedicated to bashing the rogue class. Maybe you can help me with it?
1) Rogues have very few class features, especially for a class with a 3/4 BAB.
2) Nearly all rogue talents are terrible because their mechanical benefits are simply weak or involve things any character should be able to do
3) Many of their specialties can be replicated or done better by low-level magic
I want to compile a list of exactly what makes the rogue underpowered for the purpose of houseruling in my campaign. I'd make another thread, but I don't think we need another thread dedicated to bashing the rogue class. Maybe you can help me with it?
1) Rogues have very few class features, especially for a class with a 3/4 BAB.
2) Nearly all rogue talents are terrible because their mechanical benefits are simply weak or involve things any character should be able to do
3) Many of their specialties can be replicated or done better by low-level magic
4) having a 3/4's BAB attack bonus with no class feature to boost it in some way, combined with sneak attacks, makes for a character who doesn't hit as often or as hard as other 3/4 BAB classes.
Are the forums buggin out for other people too?
By the way, here you go Marthkus.
Auto spots and disables most traps. Takes 10s on Disable Device. Can Stealth respectably, but can use Invisibility in a pinch. Might acquire shadow armor.
** spoiler omitted **
I just have to point out that improved two weapon feint does not require two weapon feint. So it would be better to grab improved feint until you get improved two weapon feint.
Ok so my post disappeared so I think my claim was that
1. Rogues have a better bluff than bards
2. Rogues do more damage than bards
3. Rogues have more skill points than bards for a long time
1 |Combat Expertise, Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Deceitful
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |Minor Magic(Prestidigitation)
7 |Arcane Strike
8 |Major Magic(Silent Image)
9 |Greater Feint
10|Skill Mastery(Bluff, UMD, Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics)
Now you didn't post a bard, but it's basically the same idea SO let's assume basically the same items for the rogue (rapier instead of dagger, +2 shortbow instead of light mace)
1. This rogues takes a 10 on bluff for a (10ranks+10feats) 33 total before any magical items. SO this rogue still better at bluffing
2. You have 92 skill points. This rogue has 110. SO rogue still has more skill points
3. Damage. This rogue's to hit = 7BAB+1enh+6dex = 14 before any buffs. Damage on hit is 6d6+10(1d6weapon+5d6SA+3arcanestrike+6dex+1enh) Damage on hit is the same. Rogue to-hit is higher, your build has more attacks. Buffs require action economy or preparation to pull off and are difficult to compare to. Although I would say haste+mutagen puts you over in DPR compared to this rogue with haste only.
Now you can make arguments about your build being "better" but it is not the rogue+more. Your build is not to rogue what fighter is to warrior.