Sounds pretty crazy. We'll see how it goes when the time for my group comes up, although I hope that they won't fight Nocticula.
Well, there has been a long-standing argument that high-level AP modules are not really powered to a degree which realistically keeps up with groups consisting of players who choose their feats/spells by a more complex method than blindly stabbing their fingers at a random page in the appropiate section of the rulebook. :p
Since mythic puts high-octane fuel in the power tank of adventurers and the writers still insist that solo encounters make for good encounter design (even if there has been plenty of evidence to the contrary for years), that what your group experiened is what then happens.
As I said in this weeks report, I made a challenging encounter for my party (which, grantedly, is consisting of six players at a 20 point buy, although the mythic rules are somewhat nerfed, as pointed out in the first post of this thread) by combining three encounters into one and adding a former ally NPC to the mix. Then adding advanced templates to everything without class levels and to the vampire cleric to boot. At level 9/tier 2. I can only imagine what things will look like after book three, when the party will have had time to craft and buy stuff, instead of just taking with them and using what they find in the module proper.
To wit, the APL of the party should 11. (Level 9 + 6 players + 2 mythic tiers). Maybe 12 if you count Irabeth (lvl 6/tier 1) and the 20 building points. The combined CR of the encounter was about CR 15, if I add up CR/XP correctly. So, according to the encounter table I had to bring an epic or super-epic encounter to challenge the party a bit.
I am having similar issues but I'm not sure why I feel the way that I do. My encounters are beefed up, I can and do still drop PCs. They do fail some missions and encounters but the combination of higher levels and mythic power do not appeal to me.
Although I can't narrow down why, other than some timing issues as I spend hours setting things up that get killed in two rounds.
Maybe its the classic action movie syndrome. Why don't the big bads react vs the PCs now? None of the flunkies can really stand up to them, so why fight? I'm starting to have so many demons teleport away because combat is useless.
It's always a good question. Best answer so far I've got is "because demons", although that goes the exact other way, too.
Well if Goldfinger just shot James Bond than it would be a shorter movie. :) They even joke about it in Austin Powers.
Is not the converse also true? If monsters can drop the players in one turn (even with it being a lucky critical), then doesn't that also detract from the game?
Please note, I say this because my last RotRL game had a Ogrekin Barbarian/Rogue drop a 140+ hit point Barbarian to 9 hit points (including healing from the Cleric!) in three rounds. If any one of those hits had been criticals, it would have been faster. And if I hadn't modified the critical rules, then one hit could have caused half the Barbarian's hit points. Easily. If he'd taken a couple hits earlier he'd be dead in that situation.
If I'd not modified the critical rules, the NPC Arcane Trickster WOULD have probably died to a Critical Hit in the first round of combat (assuming it confirmed, a minimum of 68 damage would have easily squished her).
Do note, it was a most intense battle and the players enjoyed themselves quite a bit even as they were chewing through fingernails (sadly the player of the Barbarian wasn't there but I shared events with her via text messages). It also led the players to realize a huge number of ogres in Fort Rannick could be quite dangerous. ;)
So then, the question becomes not "do players kill encounters too quickly" but "is it possible for monsters to drop players as quickly as the players drop the monsters?" If it's the latter then your problem is the encounter has too few foes.
Yes, I can often drop a player in a round or two...which is why I am wondering what my dislike is. High level encounters can and do go both ways. I may want a more freeflowing combat with more options, which is not pathfinder and especially not higher level mythic pathfinder.
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Well, it may be that roleplaying game mechanics have an inherent problem: you have three elements - detailed combat, fast combat, and varied combat. But you can't have all three, and trying to combine just two of these will often result in something that doesn't work well. Pathfinder is fast/varied combat, and it gets unwieldy at times. The more variety you add to it, the slower it goes.
I wouldn't consider pathfinder varied, or not once PCs are set in their abilities. Once those are set it seems that combat goes the same way each time, or very similar variations.
Yes, I can often drop a player in a round or two...which is why I am wondering what my dislike is. High level encounters can and do go both ways. I may want a more freeflowing combat with more options, which is not pathfinder and especially not higher level mythic pathfinder.
Rocket tag is a fact of life at the highest levels and mythic makes it even more available as soon as tier 3 rolls in (Fleet Warrior). What I've heard so far from players/GM's who already managed to get to modules five and six is that PC's which have been reduced to -100 HP can be healed back to full by the healers during combat. Monsters do not have that option.
Also, players who build their characters for AC can and will make their characters almost unhittable.
That's of course also correct.
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Quick question magnuskn, if you don't mind. I've been following this thread with interest.
I'll be starting my own WOTR game in a few months. In your opinion based on experiences so far, assuming a 4-player group with 15-point buy, would you still recommend one or both of these mechanics:
- Mythic power per level is halfed, i.e. player characters only get 3 + 1/tier mythic power.
- Player characters only recover 1d4 mythic power per day.
I'm thinking about applying these, but noticed that you also had 6 players with 20 point buy, and wasn't sure how much you were doing to increase the enemies themselves beyond what you listed.
I would recommend using my adjustments for mythic gameplay. So far it has had a very restraining effect on the party going all-out with their use of their mythic power.
Aside from liberally applying advanced and fiendish templates and sometimes subbing in better opponents, I use Scorpion_mjd's upgrades for the mythic opponents of the AP. So far they have made the fights interesting and challenging.
However, keep in mind that I am still at the end of only module two. After they have finished it, the party will have for the first time the leisure to craft and buy the equipment they really want (big six items and so on, mostly) and they will have another tier to their name. Fleet Warrior probably will be a popular choice for the champion characters.
So my advice may well be still naive from my side. I'll have a much better handle on how well the changes I made (and will make) are going to keep the party challenged when they have finished module three.
I would agree with lowering mythic power as well, that would bring it closer to mythic monsters. I'm not sure about the recovery; if I used it I would base it off of the surge value.
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Oooh, I like Seannoss's idea too. Recovering 1d4 might be too limiting for a party of four, but recovering based off the surge bonus (1d6 at 1-3, 1d8 at 4-6, 1d10 at 7-9, and 1d12 at 10) could be a nice way to scale it.
As for the mythic power cap: is having the normal amount really a big issue? It seems like the "recovering" mechanic is limiting enough. If a player has 7 MP at 2nd (normal) instead of the 5 MP you use (reduced), that's not too many extra uses, and once they've begun using it up, the recovery mechanic can keep it even further in check (once they're down to 1, they'll be back to 3 either way if they only roll a 2, so the total amount only matters if they roll high or don't use much).
Of course, I might need the extra challenge. Two of my players are Paizo employees, so I think I have my work cut out for me.
Oooh, I like Seannoss's idea too. Recovering 1d4 might be too limiting for a party of four, but recovering based off the surge bonus (1d6 at 1-3, 1d8 at 4-6, 1d10 at 7-9, and 1d12 at 10) could be a nice way to scale it.
It's too much. The whole point of limiting mythic power is to make the resource scarce enough that players have to seriously think about using it. If your mythic power is 10 at tier 7 and you can recover it in one go with a good roll, then what was the point of having a limited recovery mechanic in the first place?
Also, given the pacing of the AP, I think the last module would be the only place in the last four modules where the group would have such a time crunch that they can't take off a few days to recover fully. So if they really want to be at their peak, they can limit themselves. Most groups would probably want to press on as soon as possible, though, so that is where limiting mythic power by reducing it and making recovery harder will reign in their power level.
BTW, stuff like Ambrosia and the mythic power draining spells should of course be proscribed, lest this whole exercise becomes futile.
How about handling mythic power for the enemies? Unlike the PCs, a mythic enemy fighter has no reason to not burn through his mytic power. Either he uses it now and perhaps wins, or he doesn't and gets cut down. Same as with enamy casters, saving that fireball for later is somethign that PCs are supposed to do.
Well, yeah. That's how NPC's work, who unlike PC's have to deal with having inferior gear all around.
Session of April 15th 2014:
Five of six players in attendance. Again a one-fight session, with some trap avoidance at the beginning and some celebration and important RP at the end. The fight was against Eustoyriax and his two shadow demon entourage.
The plan, highly successful at the beginning, was to keep the room permanently in Deeper Darkness and let Eustoyriax do his thing. The two shadow demons alternated in casting DD against the Daylight casts of the two arcane casters and the cleric. Eustoyriax possessed the barbarian and began whaling on the nearby party members.
Since there was a half-full Wand of Daylight in play, the party could keep up with the tactic until they figured on readying actions and thus managed to get in an unopposed Daylight, followed by a Terrible Remorse, mythically dual cast on both normal shadow demons. The both of them didn't last very long after that and while Eustoyriax managed to still put some pressure on the party (and there some hilarity with the rangers boosted animal companion chewing off the barbarians face, since the ranger (who had been possessed when Eustoyriax jumped to her, instead of staying in the prone, Slow'ed barbarian) couldn't countermand her command to the animal companion to trip up the barbarian via bite attacks.
Anyway, Irabeth was the one who landed the killing blow and since she will be staying Drezen from now on, instead of accompanying the party, I gave her another mythic tier and level 7. ^^ The party was pretty much empty on mythic power at the end of the fight, but then again they are also done now for days or weeks with fighting.
Module three awaits next week and we'll see how the party looks like after they had time and opportunity to equip themselves with items of their own choosing.
I had a similar experience with Eustoyriax. The Wizard failed his save vs fear, so no dispel magic on DD and the Ranger failed her will save. It was fun turing her companions into pincushions with Mythic Rapidshot for several rounds.
My PCs made all of their saves, and had CoP up too. Very long and drawn out fight.
After he ran out of meatbags to occupy (or better said, daily magic jar uses), the combat was over pretty soon. The party is well supplied with melee/ranged types with good to-hit numbers and know how to flank and support each other. Since Eustoyriax did not have something like blindsight or tremorsense, using a hit-and-run tactic with his pounce ability was not feasible.
I could have let him fly around and use some his Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spell-likes or pounce from the air, but the ranger with her excellent firepower would have made that a short exercise, too. So I let him stay to follow his orders and fight to the death and that at least gave Irabeth her last blaze of glory, making for a good coda of her following the party into the heaviest combat areas of the campaign. After this, she'll be more in the background (at least in terms of actively going with the party) and it'll be Arueshalae's turn to shine. Or so I presume. ^^
Yes, but it seems odd that one Daylight spell could negate 20 Deeper Darkness spells - or one Deeper Darkness negate 20 Daylight spells. So if you have two Daylight spells (or a Daylight and a Continual Light), then the Deeper Darkness should be negated by the Daylight and light caused by the second light spell allowed to function.
Some comments on mythic gameplay from my recently-finished campaign:
First, a few clarifications on the game-style that was run: It was 4 PC's with several guest-star PC's run by a single player (She wanted the opportunity to see all the paths/traits). The Party was optimized by our standards, though would probably be laughed off these boards, and used rolled stats FAR in excess of standard point-buy (probably somewhere in the 50-range on average). Finally, we came into the campaign with the intent of a light, heroic experience, so there wasn't a great need to give real threats to the PC's, just catch them off-guard every so often. Also, this was my first extended campaign in Pathfinder, so I was not playing the opponents to their best by a long-shot.
All that out of the way, yes the power levels are absolutely ridiculous by the end. Despite not trying to kill the PC's, I had to constantly upgrade the monsters, especially their Attack values, in order to have any chance to deal damage. This was at its most severe in adventure 5, which had a LOT of solo encounters, each of which were fairly separated. Adventure 6 actually only has 2 solo fights that I could see, but by that point, I'm not sure I could have thrown a big enough threat at them.
For early adventures, as a comparison, they were able to get through part 1 and 2 of adventure 1 without even needing a rest, and took out about 2/3 of the grey garrison in a single encounter, Not needing to rest at all. I believe the minotaur sub-boss got 1-shotted. Oracle final boss at least put up a decent fight. I added in a couple of demons just to make it interesting.
Adventure 2 was mostly the same, with the exception that Staunton Vhane nearly killed the Cleric and Eustoryiax was a royal pain for them to kill.
Adventure 3, the group went severely off-the-rails, and because of that, I was actually able to provide a decent challenge. As soon as I started dropping hints about the key NPC (not sure how spoilerish I should be), they busted out every divination spell they could to find her. When that didn't work (non-detection), they looked for the Hag chasing her. Since there was no non-detection on her, I determined that she was still on the road looking for her. In order to deter them from derailing too much, I threw the Woundwyrm at them, which severely depleted them but didn't scare them off. So, in the same day as that fight they ran into the Hag and her entire entourage in a single encounter. That encounter dropped the cleric (again), and nearly got the rogue and magus. Fighter was a defensive monster, and I could hardly touch her, though. For the rest of the sandbox section, the player had a tendency to voluntarily split the party, so the threats were reasonable. In the final dungeon, I DM-edicted another party split (Which dropped the cleric AGAIN when the rogue got mind-controlled), but after they got back together, it was a steamroll.
Adventure 4 was pretty much consisted of either embarrassing encounters that didn't even register on the party's radar, or tough encounters that frustrated the group, but generally didn't scare them. I believe this was when the mythic reroll ability entered play, and it makes debilitating spells almost impossible to land, especially from non-mythic sources. I killed the cleric's familiar (a BIG deal in our homebrew setting), but otherwise didn't severely hinder them. When they tried to start a fight in the city, I rolled 3 separate random encounters, rolled very high on two of them (Vrolikai and Umbral Dragon), and threw them all at them at once, and STILL couldn't do more than token damage (Inspire Spell -> Greater Restoration makes energy drain feel like a waste of time).
In conclusion, we still absolutely LOVED the campaign. The story is good, and playing the super-powered knight-in-shining-armor is fun. However, Villains always lose syndrome will be in full effect, and it will be severe by late levels (though sometimes funny. The Drow Cleric in Heralds got hit with a talisman of Pure Good and rolled a 2 on the save, when all she needed was a 3)
And that's my somewhat brief rundown of my experience in WotR. Let me know if you would like any more specifics.
That isn't how DD and daylight work btw, they are touch spells so basically impossible to counter each other. When brought into conflicting radius', they negate each other temporarily, making the light level go back to what ambient lighting was (I think regular darkness)
Yeah, but to be honest I didn't want to screw over the party too badly. Without Daylight countering Deeper Darkness, the best they could have done is the two spells cancelling each other out and them still having to fight in total darkness. I thought the fight was okay as it went.
And that's my somewhat brief rundown of my experience in WotR. Let me know if you would like any more specifics.
More specifics are always fun to hear about (I personally would be most interested in how Baphomet, Deskari and Areelu went down and if they managed to put up a good fight on the way. Also how the Xanthir Vang fight went), but the short version also already serves as another data point on how mythic is too good for the PC's.
True enough, I hadn't thought of that at the moment of writing the post. However, most of the party was very low on mythic power. Still, good point.
Darkvision doesn't work in deeper darkness btw.
Yeah, but DD and Daylight cancel each other out, so normal non-magical darkness remains and half the party should have been able to see perfectly well. Oh, well. Let this be a lesson to other GM's. :p
ya, I did the reverse with a nabasu. Saw that it had deeper darkness and sneak attack felt like a great combo. Until I realized later that it can't see through its deeper darkness.
And that's my somewhat brief rundown of my experience in WotR. Let me know if you would like any more specifics.More specifics are always fun to hear about (I personally would be most interested in how Baphomet, Deskari and Areelu went down and if they managed to put up a good fight on the way. Also how the Xanthir Vang fight went), but the short version also already serves as another data point on how mythic is too good for the PC's.
Baphomet went down fairly chumpish, but that was at least partly my fault. It was the end of a session, and I forgot several of his abilities, as well as the Minotaur Antipaladin, whom I had planned to arrive with him. The Wizard countered his opening time-stop as well, so it was a single-monster encounter. He did one very good full-attack, but wasn't enough to drop the fighter, who, as I said, was a defensive monster. I think if he has a full supporting cast, he will be dangerous.
Areelu put up a good fight, since they literally pulled her with the entire bottom-half of that dungeon. Saves were an issue, as they were able to surge out of both dominates, then they countered the other spells I attempted with her, and then they were able to kill Gimcrak to zap her mythic. If you have a counter-spell specialist, it might be good to let her have 20-levels worth of hexes as a backup plan, as well as possibly giving her a minor int boost for saves.
Deskari was a bit disappointing, though that's at least partly because I forgot about his Rasping armor until it was too late. PCs rolled amazingly on their saves versus his poison, too. He still dropped the fighter, who bodyguarded a full attack made on the cleric. I think if his HP gets upgraded, he probably does not need too much more help to be credible.
Xanthir Vang actually was a very good fight. The group hadn't packed anti-invisibility protections, so he was hard to deal with. The fighter rolled amazingly on Perception, though, and was able to see him even through the invis, and essentially tugged on his foot while trying to successfully grapple him. The Riftwarden Orphan was a blaster evoker, so she was the star of that fight, fittingly. A few mythic lightning bolts took him down, but he lasted about 3 rounds as-written. And that fight was with a full party of 6 and a significant number of NPC's
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Baphomet went down fairly chumpish, but that was at least partly my fault. It was the end of a session, and I forgot several of his abilities, as well as the Minotaur Antipaladin, whom I had planned to arrive with him. The Wizard countered his opening time-stop as well, so it was a single-monster encounter. He did one very good full-attack, but wasn't enough to drop the fighter, who, as I said, was a defensive monster. I think if he has a full supporting cast, he will be dangerous.
Timestop is an SLA, which explicitly can't be counter-spelled.
Areelu put up a good fight, since they literally pulled her with the entire bottom-half of that dungeon. Saves were an issue, as they were able to surge out of both dominates, then they countered the other spells I attempted with her, and then they were able to kill Gimcrak to zap her mythic. If you have a counter-spell specialist, it might be good to let her have 20-levels worth of hexes as a backup plan, as well as possibly giving her a minor int boost for saves.
Again, make sure you watch the difference between spells and SLAs. SLAs can't be countered. And a witch doesn't feel the familiar burn until she neeeds to change her spells.
Xanthir Vang actually was a very good fight. The group hadn't packed anti-invisibility protections, so he was hard to deal with. The fighter rolled amazingly on Perception, though, and was able to see him even...
Uhh, Xanthir by the book has a +25 Stealth. +20 from moving while invis, and a roll of a 1 is a minimum of 46. And even if they beat his Stealth check, it's still full concealment.
Oh, SLA's can't be counterspelled? Another thing which is good to know, since that is exactly what happened with the third Magic Jar attempt by Eusty. Oh, well, spilled milk and all that. ^^
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Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
Well, good to know for the future. Thanks!
Page 554 of the CRB
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal
*edit* that is to say - isn't this correct? That's the 4th printing CRB
*edit a second time*
After changing my search a bit apparently this was changed in errata - SLA's can not be counterspelled.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
Cool, thanks! And, yes, I think she got a 48 on the perception, Vang rolled a 2. Also, I think concealment actually prevented a successful attack twice in the entire campaign (and not for lack of trying. The percentile dice just always rolled over 50. I've had more misses due to concealment in the first 2 sessions of Skull & Shackles part 2 that we've done since then)
And thanks to isaic for the descriptions of those fights, it'll help me prepare for them. :)
And thanks to isaic for the descriptions of those fights, it'll help me prepare for them. :)
Happy to help. I've been enjoying your descriptions so far, and I'm looking forward to seeing how things go.
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Session of April 22nd 2014:
Four players out of six in attendance, two of them quite late.
Pretty tame session. I didn't come really fully prepared, since I just came out of the large easter weekend and following the end of Sword of Valor, most time was spent selling loot and buying better equipment. There was some RP in the middle with Irabeths ascension to ruler of Drezen and the newly "divine" cleric and Jesker Heltons disappearance was noted and investigated. At the tail end of the session, the party departed to investigate Delamere's tomb and had a random encounter with a young red dragon on the way. It didn't go well for the poor thing, which thought that it might do one pass over the party and escape. It did not. Well, at least two of their horses are toast (literally), so they have to travel a tad slower.
The downtime aspect has been heavily de-emphasized by me, with me cooking up a RTS style queue, based on Seannoss idea and stats. It's not very elaborate, but at least it keeps them engaged with Drezen a bit.
Its too late for me, but I am interested to hear what changes you make to the first half of this book. I didn't really like the format or pace... or encounters as many of us have discussed.
Eh, to be honest, I still am undecided. Since only three of the campaign traits were chosen, I'll probably combine two background traits with each other (two times, Exposed to Awfulness with Stolen Fury and Child of the Crusades with Riftwarden Orphan. Touched by Divinity is good by itself, since those characters have the best backstory, anyway), so as to have a slightly more connected module.
Module three is for me the worst written one of the whole bunch, because the different parts seem to connect very poorly to each other.
Wizards being able to recharge charge items with 1d10+tier is g##!~#n bonkers, all those wands sell for maximum value.
Just read through this entire thread, and I have to say, I nearly spit up laughing at this. For some reason, I pictured King Bumi's face getting closer to a monitor at the 'goddamn bonkers' bit.
@magnuskun, This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for here on the forums. Campaign journals just don't cut it when I'm looking for hard analysis of Mythic Rules.
My group's first taste of Mythic is in our Legacy of Fire campaign and they want to play Wrath afterwards (which I got volunteered to run). I've seen some serious issues come up because of staggeringly powerful synergies which then synergize extremely well with the non-mythic synergies.
Mythic Pathfinder at high levels feels less like Rocket Tag and more like Nuclear Tag.
@Tels: Happy to be of service. This thread was started with the exact intention of providing an overview of how mythic rules interact with actual gameplay.