Combat balance in mythic gameplay - Ongoing campaign coverage


Wrath of the Righteous

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magnuskn wrote:
No, he didn't cast those spells during the multiple Time Stops. He used that time to buff himself up, then readied an action when he came out to use a swift action to cast another spell (Greater Dispel Magic + Moment of Greatness) then the standard action to cast another Time Stop. When he finally was done with that, he cast the Mythic Augmented Maximised Empowered Elemental Disintegrate.

I gotta say that I am currently with Raisse. I don't see how this possibly works in 1 turn.

Sorceror starts turn, and cast Time Stop, extended (1) - this is his standard action.
Inside the Time stop(1),
he casts Time stop, extended (2)...(N)
He then casts many buffs.
His accumulated time stops end.
He uses a quickened spell or a Wild Arcana to cast a second spell: Greater Dispel Magic (and expended his bonus from Moment of Greatness on the CL check...).

But after that, he cannot cast another spell this turn - P213, core rulebook "A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round." Nothing that I can think of in mythic allows you to cast 3 times per round - note that Amazing Initiative additional standard action "can't be used to cast a spell". He could use the extra standard action to read a scroll of limited wish, but he still needs to cast his Mythic Augmented Maximised Empowered Elemental Disintegrate the turn afterwards, allowing a Deskari (and anyone else) another opportunity to act.

Also, why didn't Deskari actually do something during his turn - his aura is an automatic effect... looking a MDJScorpion's statblock, which you are using IIRC, Deskari's turn should have looked something like this.

Standard Action: Mythic Time Stop, allowing him and all his allies to buff and maneuver. Deskari closes (flying) to melee range while casting creeping doom, summon demons and symbol of weakness DC 32.

After the end of the time stop, he uses amazing init to get another standard action, and full attack. Focus on the healer other than the paladin, who has already acted... Try and put the healer down. Don't forget the poison - it stacks with the poison from his abyssal swarm aura, and it reduces con, making further saving throws more difficult as you go, and also stacks with the infestation ability (another -4 to saves...).

Finally, using another mythic power, he uses his demon lord ability to use his SLA's as a swift action, and attempts to imprison a PC, DC 34, and he's smart enough to pick the one with the weakest will save.

Then the demons and swarms he summoned during the Time Stop go. Don't forget swarm master for his creeping doom swarms (dc32 Fort distraction saves and 10d6 dmg). I suspect the most useful thing for the Demons is dispelling...

As each post-paladin characters turn comes up, his abyssal swarm aura forces 2 Saving throws DC 44 Fort (Poison and then Nauseating). Note that poison makes the nausea save hugely difficult - 3d4 less con and infestation (another -4 to saves...). Then another save DC 36 frightful presence. After that use, Deskari's free action, so he can do it during their turn to force a 4th save (DC 42 Fort vs Stunning, and 20d6 dmg save for 1/2)... EDIT and the symbol of weakness for another save...

And God's alone know what Arleesh, Gimcrak and K reborn got up to during the TS. Note that Arleesh can cast just about whatever she wants using Arcane Surge.


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It works because of this "wonderful" spell from Mythic Origins:

Borrowed Time

School transmutation; Level alchemist 6, bard 6, magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal Target you
Duration 1 round/level (D)

This spell allows you to reach ahead in time and draw alacrity from the future at the expense of your own health. For the duration of this spell, you gain an extra swift action you can use only during your turn. You can't use this swift action to take a second immediate action between turns, but you can use it to take a swift action the turn after you've taken an immediate action. Each time you take an extra swift action in this fashion you take 1 point of Constitution damage. If you're immune to ability damage, you take 5 points of hit point damage instead.

When the spell ends, you are staggered for 1d4+1 rounds from the temporal backlash.

Mythic: If you expend one use of mythic power, instead of taking an extra swift action, you can take either an extra move or an extra swift action each round. You can use this extra swift action to take two immediate actions between your turns; this consumes your extra swift action in your next round. Each extra action you take still deals damage to you as described above.

As for Mythic Time Stop... we both agreed to not use it, because it is one of those "who goes first, wins" mutually assured destruction spells.

So, yeah, taking the nukes off the table nerfed the opposition somewhat, but so did it nerf the PC's. In fact, the Sorcerer did not even take Mythic Improved Initiative for that very reason, so it wasn't as if he couldn't have optimized himself to always going first and being the one to cast Mythic Time Stop if he would have put his mind to it, if we both would have went all-out.


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I am kinda thinking about doing such a combat balance campaign journal as this one for RotRL, my next campaign, due to a houserule we are going to use, which in this campaign could not be properly tested: You only get the benefit of three buffs at the same time, although class abilities from PC's don't count (so Inspire Courage would not count as such a buff, for example) and casters can buff themselves up as much as their spell list allows.

We've had a problem with the party going into the latter part of the campaign always buffed to the gills during the campaigns before WotR and this is a solution the Pathfinder developers were thinking about during the time of the alpha, but never implemented. It'd be interesting to record how this affects a normal campaign, together with some other optional rules (magic item crafting 25% over WBL from Ultimate Campaign and hero points, which have helped a ton in the RotRL campaign I am currently being a player in).

Sovereign Court

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My players are buff-buddies to an impressive extreme (and I'm looking forward to running Rise), so consider me interested, Magnus. :)

I'm currently running this path, and I'm not sure about the problems in my game yet. Not denying they exist at all; it might just be my group. They're exploring in Book 3 currently. We have a paladin, obv, with Legendary Radiance and a big Divine Source focus. (I'm a bit worried about the Resurrection domain as SLAs.) A dwarf bloodrager who tends to Mythic Enlarge himself, and who just learned Haste (red flag). And an inquisitor/holy vindicator who's all about Channel Smite. Those three, plus 2 cohorts (cleric and paladin/rogue/swashbuckler), 15 point buy. They also fed a lot of gold back into Drezen, like 80k.

I'm curious what the experts think about my chances. No Foe-biter, no Vital Strike, no mounted charges, no mythic full-casters. They did just down the Woundwyrm (Giant template added to fit the mini) at lvl 10/tier 3, although they went all-out. If details would help, I'm here. Thanks! :)


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Kalindlara wrote:
My players are buff-buddies to an impressive extreme (and I'm looking forward to running Rise), so consider me interested, Magnus. :)

actually thats a James Jacobs house rule i believe (or at least he has suggested it multiple times:)


Interestingly, we never had a problem with "excessive buffage" in any of the other APs we played. Even in RotRL the bard combined Good Hope with Inspire Courage for a mere +5 to hit/+5 damage, which wasn't game-changing.

I don't know whether it's the versatility offered by the mythic rules for clerics, the extended duration provided to clerics as a mythic ability, or the fact that it's our first GMNPC cleric, but in WotR our fighter is routinely running around with +9 to hit, +11 damage from buffs. (Alter Self, Bull's Strength, Weapon of Awe, mythic Heroism, and Inspire Courage at +2). Add mythic damage on top of that and things get stupid awfully fast.

Ah... typing that up I just noticed it: Mythic Heroism not only doubles the morale bonus from +2 to +4, but also applies to damage, which regular Heroism doesn't.

Mythic again. Go figure...


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What you need to do is have them blow their surges on stupid s&%% before the monsters.

An example: They're trolling thru The Ivory Labyrinth when they turn a corner and suddenly they're in a town square setting, with a stage and everything. Baphomet has entered them into a Pie Baking Contest!
Suddenly everyone is blowing thru Mythic Surges trying to bake the most kick ass pie so they can win some prize (lets say a scroll of true resurrection or something) so when they face the actual opponents they'll wish they had more Surges (at least those pies are going to be outstanding tho:-p)

Edit: Actually that would be a good way to add more personality to The Ivory Labyrinth, have Baphomet throw a bunch of stupid small town b%*&*+!# contests and such with one off tho impressive sounding items to get them to blow resources:p


"The Ivory Labyrinth -- Baking Nirvana. No BS!"

I love it!


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I have considered using a maximum number of buffs too, mythic heroism really brought that to the forefront. Not sure if it should be a static number, based on stat or level though.


magnuskn wrote:

I am kinda thinking about doing such a combat balance campaign journal as this one for RotRL, my next campaign, due to a houserule we are going to use, which in this campaign could not be properly tested: You only get the benefit of three buffs at the same time, although class abilities from PC's don't count (so Inspire Courage would not count as such a buff, for example) and casters can buff themselves up as much as their spell list allows.

We've had a problem with the party going into the latter part of the campaign always buffed to the gills during the campaigns before WotR and this is a solution the Pathfinder developers were thinking about during the time of the alpha, but never implemented. It'd be interesting to record how this affects a normal campaign, together with some other optional rules (magic item crafting 25% over WBL from Ultimate Campaign and hero points, which have helped a ton in the RotRL campaign I am currently being a player in).

What do you consider buffs? Would defensive spells like Mage Armor or Resist Energy count? What about something that only buffs skills?


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I have enacted maximum buffs. That said, Divine magic differs from Arcane magic in this setting, and the maximum number of buffs is 1+Charisma Modifier. Also, spells you cast on yourself do not count toward this, nor do buffs caused by magic items.

Given that a couple of the players (and the NPC) have a Charisma of 12 or less, this does limit buffs somewhat. (The characters with high charisma scores - the Sorceress and the Cleric - don't really enter into combat so buffs don't affect them as much.)


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NobodysHome wrote:

"The Ivory Labyrinth -- Baking Nirvana. No BS!"

I love it!

A Mythic baking contest, we're talking big leagues here! Areelu Vorlesh, Jezelda, Kurgess (cant have a divine competition without him) Norgorber, Iron Chef Morimoto, whatever wanna be biker d-bag that paid Samcro to install him as "pie dude" of FoodNetwork


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NobodysHome wrote:
Interestingly, we never had a problem with "excessive buffage" in any of the other APs we played. Even in RotRL the bard combined Good Hope with Inspire Courage for a mere +5 to hit/+5 damage, which wasn't game-changing.

In Jade Regent, my guys went into the final important fights with about 10-15 buffs on them. Per character.


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Tels wrote:
[What do you consider buffs? Would defensive spells like Mage Armor or Resist Energy count? What about something that only buffs skills?

Energy resistances, Freedom of Movement, Haste, Blessing of Fervor, Heroism/Good Hope, Death Ward and so on. There are a lot more than I can think off the top of my head, but they are there and they were getting used. My players themselves agreed to the buff limit because they themselves were unhappy about easily they destroyed the Jade Regent and his entourage.


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I have been running Carrion Crown as well as play in a Kingmaker game, and both I and the DM from that instituted a maximum 5 buffs per PC rule, which has made the choosing of which buff might be the most useful a fun tactical decision besides the usual 'buff everything, be immune to 90% of the effects, and stomp everything with un-typed damage and conventional ranged/melee attacks within 2 round' fights. Even in Carrion Crown, in which my PCs have 1 mythic tier, the horror factor has persisted due to the fact that someone has nearly died every session, even at level 12. I think a buff limit should be considered for 'Unchained' as something beyond a houserule.
That said, I don't plan on allowing my PCs to advance past the second tier of Mythic, in largely thanks to your cautionary tale, Magnuskn. Thank you again for consistently posting this journal. While I own the WotR AP, I hesitate even further to run it now, at least not without some of the heavy overhaul suggested by others.


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Well, now that I'm in Book 4, I'd say three mythic feats could resolve most of the problems:

(1) Grant "Servant of Balance" to all 3rd-tier monsters. (Cannot be crit -- roll normal damage instead.)

(2) Grant a similar "Ignore Foe-Biter" to all 3rd-tier monsters. In short, once you're 3rd-tier mythic, you can't be one-shot any more.

(3) Maybe at 6th tier, add "SR, resistances, and immunities cannot be ignored". So much for those mythic fireballs that ignore fire immunity.

Maybe I'm wrong, but so far it just seems that my major issue is the ridiculous damage produced by criticals, combined with a 15-20 critical by a scimitar, combined with fireballs that ignore any and all resistances.

We'll see how that works as I move forward...


magnuskn wrote:

It works because of this "wonderful" spell from Mythic Origins:

Borrowed Time

School transmutation; Level alchemist 6, bard 6, magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal Target you
Duration 1 round/level (D)

This spell allows you to reach ahead in time and draw alacrity from the future at the expense of your own health. For the duration of this spell, you gain an extra swift action you can use only during your turn. You can't use this swift action to take a second immediate action between turns, but you can use it to take a swift action the turn after you've taken an immediate action. Each time you take an extra swift action in this fashion you take 1 point of Constitution damage. If you're immune to ability damage, you take 5 points of hit point damage instead.

When the spell ends, you are staggered for 1d4+1 rounds from the temporal backlash.

Mythic: If you expend one use of mythic power, instead of taking an extra swift action, you can take either an extra move or an extra swift action each round. You can use this extra swift action to take two immediate actions between your turns; this consumes your extra swift action in your next round. Each extra action you take still deals damage to you as described above.

As for Mythic Time Stop... we both agreed to not use it, because it is one of those "who goes first, wins" mutually assured destruction spells.

So, yeah, taking the nukes off the table nerfed the opposition somewhat, but so did it nerf the PC's. In fact, the Sorcerer did not even take Mythic Improved Initiative for that very reason, so it wasn't as if he couldn't have optimized himself to always going first and being the one to cast Mythic Time Stop if he would have put his mind to it, if we both would have went all-out.

1) Borrowed Time still does jack for the limitation from page 213 of the core rulebook. You've got a maximum of 2 spells per round. You've got an extra swift action - you could use a quickened SLA, or some other swift/immediate action - but it doesn't get you to 4 spells per turn. Was your sorceror using items for 2 of those spells - according to your initial write up he was straight casting all of them - I only got him to 3 spells by using a scroll...

2) Even if you don't use Mythic Time Stop, use regular Time Stop - like your sorceror is doing. I didn't actually do anything in the posted turn that required a Mythic Time Stop - I just noted that Deskari's friends would have been able to play too...


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pad300 wrote:
1) Borrowed Time still does jack for the limitation from page 213 of the core rulebook. You've got a maximum of 2 spells per round. You've got an extra swift action - you could use a quickened SLA, or some other swift/immediate action - but it doesn't get you to 4 spells per turn. Was your sorceror using items for 2 of those spells - according to your initial write up he was straight casting all of them - I only got him to 3 spells by using a scroll...

Well, then this particular move apparently was illegal. Good to know for the next campaign, if he wants to keep using the non-mythic version of Borrowed Time. Wouldn't have saved Deskari in the long run (i.e. after another round).

Although I am pretty sure that he could have pulled off a nearly as good result without the additional swift actions, if both of us would have known about that two spell limitation.

pad300 wrote:
2) Even if you don't use Mythic Time Stop, use regular Time Stop - like your sorceror is doing. I didn't actually do anything in the posted turn that required a Mythic Time Stop - I just noted that Deskari's friends would have been able to play too...

Normal Time Stop only applies to yourself. About everyone present had buffs cast already, if they had any to go around.


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Hi Magnus,

you forget to tell that i wasn´t only a sorcerer, i was a assimaar L8-sorcerer-wildblooded:empyreal/ L7-priest combined with L10-mystic-theurge. In this final battle i was using my daily mystic-theurge power of spell synthesis.

On my rdy action after the several time stops i cast with my quicken rod the greater dispel magic and forfeit my moment of prescience as swift action. Following the cast of limited wish (-7 to the next saving throw) and my with mystic augmented empowered spell + consecrate spell prepared divine desintegrate by the power of my spell synthesis.

Backgroud info:
I played under lightly nerfed condition additionaly to the basic nerf the whole group agree.
- My char forfeit every second path ability, getting an off main class level instead.
- Serveral overpowered path ability´s and mystic feats where banned
- Some Spells looses the Mystic version (time stop, meteor swarm,... and so on)

I could prepare desintegrate with consecrate spell and empowered spell cuz i had magical linage "deintegrate".

I hope this facts brings some sense into the story.

___________________________

Quote:

Spell Synthesis (Su):

At 10th level, a mystic theurge can cast two spells, one from each of his spellcasting classes, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. The mystic theurge can make any decisions
concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both of the spells takes a –2 penalty on saves made against each spell. The mystic theurge receives a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with these two spells. A mystic theurge may use this ability once per day. (PFRPG:core_p388)
Quote:

Consecrate Spell:

You infuse spells with heavenly power, drastically increasing their effectiveness against would-be heralds of evil.

Prerequisites: Aasimar, able to prepare or cast consecrate. Benefit: A consecrated spell is treated as a maximized spell against evil creatures and creatures with the evil subtype. Against all other creatures, this feat does not modify the spell in any way (for example, a consecrated fireball acts as a normal fireball against neutral or good creatures). This feat does not stack with Maximize Spell. A consecrated spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level. (PFRPG:blood of angels_p25)

Quote:

Magical Lineage:

One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.(PFRPG:ultimate campaign_p57)


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To be honest, I totally lost track what each individual player could do at the end of the campaign and basically relied on the honor system in regards if they played their characters honestly. As you can see, my player knew what he was doing.


magnuskn wrote:
To be honest, I totally lost track what each individual player could do at the end of the campaign and basically relied on the honor system in regards if they played their characters honestly. As you can see, my player knew what he was doing.

Yeah, Magnuskn, th3M1ghty, it's clear you've got some very fiddly stuff running around, and extremely optimized, and I still don't think you can do this the way you have been, RAW.

Aside, nerf?:
"My char forfeit every second path ability, getting an off main class level instead." Lets just say that I wouldn't call that a nerf... It allowed you to pick up 5 levels of casting ability... without which you would be a 12th level caster on the clerical side, not 17th.

One key problem being is that someone coming out of a time stop doesn't have a "readied action" available. A "normal" time stop, works like this:
Out of a whole round, you have a standard, a move action, and a swift action available. The caster uses his standard action to cast Time Stop, and acts for the duration in rounds. This is outside the normal time flow. You can't carry a action from outside the timeflow into the timeflow, so when TS ends, you have a move and swift action left over from the original turn. If you have ended your "time in Time Stop" preparing a readied action, the action needs to be performable with either the remaining move or swift actions. Or the action waits until the next turn.

As mythic you can pick up another standard action from amazing initiative (that "can't be used to cast a spell") and you could also potentially get another swift or even a move action from "Borrowed Time". But neither of these lets you bypass the rules on p213. Synthesis will let you workaround the p213 rule once per day, by combining a spell from your cleric and sorcerer "sides". That would get you to 3 spells per turn (once per day), which is still not 4 spells per turn.

To actually make your turn work, would require something like this:

Use Time Stop from a scroll (standard action, non-spellcasting)
Use nested time stops - your own castings
Cast "many" buff spells
exit nested time stops (free action)
Use Amazing Init and get another standard action (Free action)
Use Synthesis to cast both Greater Dispel Magic (Cleric spell) and Limited Wish (Sorcerer spell simultaneously). (Standard action, casting)
Use a Greater Quicken Rod to cast " mystic augmented empowered spell + consecrate spell prepared divine desintegrate" (Swift action, casting).

You've spent roughly 100,000 more GP on equipment. Maybe not a big issue.

On a bigger issue, "Wouldn't have saved Deskari in the long run (i.e. after another round)." Magnuskn, 1) it does if the sorcerer is dead/incapacitated before his 2nd round, which is distinctly possible if Deskari drops a full attack on his head as I have described. 2) As DM saving Deskari is not the point. The point is to have an epic fight. If Deskari puts a PC or two down, it's a lot more interesting. Clearly you were massively jaded by the time you got to this fight, but if Deskari's not nuked to death's door, the ranger can't easily kill him and then Areelu also gets a turn, with her own ability to pull TimeStop, using Wild Arcana... things snowball in this kind of fight.


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Dude, seriously... let it go. If Mighty wouldn't have nerfed the normal progression of mythic advancement and built his character the normal way mythic arcane spellcasters can be built, his turn would have more or less gone like this: Use the active of Mythic Improved Initiative. Time Stop. Cast Buffs. Come out of Time Stop with a readied action. Using Arcane Metamastery and an appropiate rod, cast Mythic Augmented Maximised Empowered Meteor Swarm with Channel Power and Mythic Spell Penetration and Eldritch Breach, take a surge if both dice come up low on the spell penetration roll. Deskari can save against a reflex DC of about 50-something, no resistances, no immunities, he'll take something like 840+56d5 damage. You can scrape Deskari's gooey remains off the wall behind him after that. Ain't no Greater Spell Immunity save you from that.

Oh, wait, Channel Power actually let's you ignore spell resistance, so the abilities dealing with SR are actually not necessary by that point.

And equipment ain't a big problem if you got a WBL which is wildly over its normal level, a friendly planar city with an obscene gold limit and mythic crafting feats.


Hi Magnus,

you where right. Non nerfed a arcane spellcaster would go for the total annihilation via meteor swarm like this:

mathematic theory craft

DC calculation:

Charisma ability
_20 start base ability score (Cha)
+05 Character advance til L20
+05 Five wish to add +5 cha (and, if the money is no problem, of course any other ability score)(don´t forget using abundant casting to raise the ability score of another PC at no additional cost)
+10 From Mystic tier
+06 From Enhancement
+02 From Enhanced Ability(ex) - mystic path ability
+02 From adventure path WotR reward from Iomedea
+02 Profane bonus fron Arushalea
-----
_52 Charisma ability aka +21 DC (imagine what a scenario walking as female sorcerer with charisma of 52 through the streets / the character ooze sex appeal)

Characterbuild like this: Human Sorcerer L19 arcane bloodline / L1 Oracle lore

Traits: Magical lineage meteor shower; Magical lineage fireball

Feats: imp. initiative (bloodline feat);imp. counterspell (bloodline feat); spell focus evocation(bloodline feat); gr. spell focus evocation; elemental focus fire; gr. elemental focus fire; elemental focus cold; gr. elemental focus cold; elemental spell cold; maximized spell; quicken spell; Tenebrous Spell; spell perfection meteor swarm; spell perfection fireball; spell penetration
(10 feats@L20 + 1 feat being human + 1 feat from ap:WotR Iomedea reward + 3 bloodline feats)

Revelation: Sidestep secret (su)

Curse: deaf at L10 bonus (+9 from off class and +1 from oracle class)

Mystic feats: mystic imp. initiative; mystic spell focus evocation; mystic elemental focus fire; mystic elemental focus cold; mystic spell penetration

mystic path abilities: enhanced ability charisma; eldritch breach; elemental bond fire; resilent arcana; arcane metamagic 4; abundant casting; channel power

Gear:
Ring1 - Ring of Transcendent Spells;....etc
Headband - something with cha+6;..etc
Rod - Greater metamagic rod of extend
Rod - Greater metamagic rod of empower
Rod - Greater metamagic rod of quicken
Gloves - Grove of storing (greater metamagic rod of empower)

Combat scenario
You start using your mystic improved initiative special get +20 instead of rolling a dice, so in normal case you start first

If you tumble unprepared into the battle you should start with the extend mystic time stop to give you and your party the time to raise all your buffs up, change to the quicken rod an forfeit the last extra turn to set into ready action.

Now checking if the opponents had any protection up like arodens spellbane,...etc via greater arcane sight. If yes just use quicken gr. dispel magic.
Use additional swift action (borrowed time) to activate arcane metamagic path ability for maximize spell.
Use glove of storing as free action for getting the empowered rod into the hand.
Cast mystic, augmented, potent, resilent, maximized, empowered, tenebrous, still, elemental spell cold(half fire half cold) meteor swarm (incl. activation of mystic elemental focus) - spell perfection / Channel power

DC:
10 base
09 Spell
21 ability score
02 potent
02 Ring of trancendent spell
08 mystic spell focus evocation - spell perfection
08 mystic elemental focus fire - spell perfection
08 mystic elemental focus cold - spell perfection
02 Tenebrous spell - spell perfection
01 Arcane bloodline arcana
02 Arcane bloodline school power(ex) evocation
01 Fiery body (fire spell)
05 Mystic augmented Elemental body IV fire elementar
----
79 DC
04 From being hit by an meteor (should be no problem against touch AC)
02 From channel power (4 against non mystic opponents)
-----------
85 Effective DC against mystic opponents (need to save twice cuz activateted mystic elemental focus)
87 Effective DC against non mystic opponents (need to save triple cuz activateted mystic elemental focus and archmage tier 10)

DMG:
Combined all four meteor 840 + (1.5 X 56d5) = 924 to 1260 (bypasses fire resistance and fire immunity) at area four 40-ft.-radius spreads

This should be enough to clear any conflict once and for all.

Oh and for everybody who thinks counterspell via gr. dispel magic could be work against the meteor swarm. Just calculate: (if the opponenent could beat mid blank / imp. invisibility to see you casting. Cuz you cast still the opponent cannot hear you casting)

11 Base DC
19 From L19 sorcerer
10 From elemental bond fire
10 From resilent arcana
04 From casting resilent
---
54 DC to counter the meteor swarm (still having mystic wish: Alter fate in the backhand to let the opponent get a 1 instead of rolling d20 dice(s) for the case of gr. dispel + forfeit moment of prescience)

PS: Better don´t try a char like this cuz your game master will hate you

Further: buffed def stats will look like this AC~72; Saves ~40 to 50; HP ~300 to 450


Note! Magical Lineage twice doesn't work, but Magical Lineage (Meteor Swarm) and Wayang Spell Hunter (Fireball) does.

Scarab Sages

@Magnuskn: thank you for running this post! I'm currently into book 4 of WotR (PCs are about to meet Noticula) and I'm starting to notice wacky damage outputs.

Current Party:
changeling druid 14/hierophant 6 with roc companion
lizardfolk bloodrager 4/fighter 1/sentinel of Iomedae 9/champion 6
half-orc brawler 14 (steelbreaker)/champion 6
human mythic lich (MR 7) wizard (arcane gun) 12

Most of the problems I'm noticing are coming from the mythic spells. Mostly having fireball spells deal 12d10 + 50% more (can't remember if empowered or channel power) and ignore fire immunity/resistances of targets. Demonic SR is a joke (this wizard has the trait that gives him +6 against demonic SR, and he also has mythic (greater) spell penetration for an additional +10).

I'm otherwise running the AP as is, but may consider doubling/maxing enemy hp, only worrying about mythic fights, and fixing the crit rules/doubling damage rules.

Best change I made at the start of the AP was removing the "double damage before crit" part of Power Attack. So far the biggest damage I've seen is the lizardfolk's consistent 110 hp/round with Mythic power attack, Improved Vital Strike, Mythic Vital Strike, and Improved Devastating Strike with a +4 evil outsider bane furious phase locking planar longsword and while raging. So far I haven't seen anyone in the group go over that 100ish hp/round damage output with melee.

Other rulings I've made that have worked so far:
-amazing initiative (the extra action can be used to activate a magic item, but not a staff or wand)
-inspired spell/wild arcana: swift action to activate, must still use the relevant casting time for the actual spell (so no quickened spell the same round as wild arcana, barring extenuating circumstances as mentioned earlier on this page))

I'm planning on having my players fight Baphomet in book 5, so I'll post on how well that fight goes. I'll make note of any other fights that catch my attention since then.

Minagho, as written, fell easily to a flesh to stone spell cast by the wizard gunman (her saves were about +10ish) (getting a free +5 DC on spells in exchange for 4 opposition schools, which you can choose wisely, exascerbated the issue)

As for mirror image, the brawler consistently uses Blind-Fight and closes her eyes (which usually means she strikes the enemy caster 75% of the time, instead of less).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I hope your adjustments help you out. Try to make your martials not take foebiter as a legendary weapon ability, that halves the insane melee damage on critical hits already.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, Minagho as written as a terribly inferior NPC. She's poorly made, underpowered and has many errors on top of that.

It was a very disappointing fact about this AP that so many NPCs have mistakes in them.

And just say no to foe biter... and mythic vital strike.

Scarab Sages

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@magnuskin and seannoss: yeah none of my players have foe bitter thankfully. As for Mythic Vital Strike only the lizardfolk has that and I think the druid might have it.

Just ran the fight with Hepzamirah (gave her the advanced and giant simple templates, but kept her size at Large. Also gave her max hit points and dual initiative). Also I noticed that Blancher's crit range should have been 19-20 due to Improved Critical. These changes brought her hp to 522 and AC to 40 (T 14, FF 38)

Note: Hepzamirah did not have any buff spells on her based on her character description saying that she was busy working on the Nahyndrian crystal and trusted her minions to deal with the PCs.

Who fought:
changeling druid 14/hierophant 6 with roc companion
lizardfolk bloodrager 4/fighter 1/sentinel of Iomedae 9/champion 6
half-orc brawler 14 (steelbreaker)/champion 6

Hepzamirah was placed in the room such that there was a wall right behind her. I assumed a 30 foot high ceiling.

(the lich was out blasting the lesser minions in the mines with maximized mythic augmented fireballs)

Hepzamirah went first (init 40 with -1 mythic power via mythic imp. initiative), casting freedom of movement and quickened shield of faith on herself. She took a moment to draw Blancher as well.

The druid (in Huge air elemental form) and her roc moved into D10, triggering the unhallow's dispel magic ability which was able to dispel the animal growth on the roc and death ward buff on the druid. Both characters set up flanking positions along the same wall as Hepzamirah. Neither were able to hit Hepzamirah.

The brawler flew into the room via a headband of aerial agility (from Ultimate Equipment) (the unhallow's dispel magic wasn't able to remove any buffs from her) to the square right above Hepzamirah (Hepzamirah did not take an AO) and attempted to sunder her armor. Out of 4 or 5 sunder attempts via Improved Sunder, only the brawler's natural 20 succeeded. The +3 full plate took 39 damage, dropping Hepzamirah's AC from 40 to 34.

The lizardfolk sentinel went next, moved up to Hepzamirah (Hepzamirah's AO hit the lizardfolk; a confirmed critical hit that did 142 damage, 12 bleed, and 3 charisma damage), and did Mythic Power Attack (-1 to ignore attack penalty) + Mythic Improved Vital Strike + Improved Devastating Strike (+12 more damage on Vital Strike, already included in 3d8+72, see below)) + swift action mythic Arcane Strike (added keen to +4 evil outsider bane furious planar phase locking longsword) for base damage of 3d8+72 + 36 power attack + 3 arcane strike. Also used amazing initiative to get another standard action and made another Vital Strike. Net damage: 112 and 104 via 2 Vital Strikes.

Hepzamirah took her immediate action to cast mythic blade barrier (with -1 mythic power for +4 spell DC) in a line that included her, the druid, roc, and brawler. The blade barrier did not pierce Hepzamirah's SR and all 3 PCs failed their Reflex saves (vs. DC 35) and took 57 damage.

Hepzamirah took her Init 20 turn. Cast mythic harm on the brawler (brawler made the Will save and took 82 damage). Attempted to hit the brawler with Blancher (missed again against AC 40) via amazing initiative.

Start of new round Hepzamirah casts mythic heal on self (+165 hp), then hits the lizardfolk with Blancher (for 47 damage).

The druid and roc again were unable to hit Hepzamirah in melee (owing to really bad attack rolls). They spend a 5 foot step to move out of the blade barrier.

The brawler full attacked Hepzamirah. Attack rolls were in the high 40s and I think 1 out of 4 or 5 missed. Total Damage: 218. Then spends a 5 foot step to move out of the blade barrier.

Two more Vital Strikes (with Mythic Power attack and Arcane Strike still in effect) and a swift action for an extra attack (via champion mythic whatnot) led to 3 hits with net damage 9d8+216+108+9, which was enough to kill Hepzamirah (she had 253 hp left).

And that's the fight. Without my changes to Hepzamirah, she would be dead at the end of the first round. Staying out of melee range against this party was next to impossible (the brawler can fly at 60 ft all the time with the headband, the air elemental and roc both have fly speeds in the 80+ ft range, and the lizardfolk 3/day can use boots of flying).

In future I may have to change the stat blocks of some villains, perhaps using the changes proposed earlier in this post.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Did you change critical hits for her? Have no idea how she could do so little damage on a crit as her weapon does x4 or x5 damage. She was the biggest reason I went to critical hit decks. And 39 pts of dmg is no where near enough to break large +3 full plate. (hardness 16 and 150 hp or so)

My biggest fix for fights like this was that NPCs start fights with all relevant spells in play. It helps them survive and it helps with the whole action economy thing.


Seannoss wrote:

Did you change critical hits for her? Have no idea how she could do so little damage on a crit as her weapon does x4 or x5 damage. She was the biggest reason I went to critical hit decks. And 39 pts of dmg is no where near enough to break large +3 full plate. (hardness 16 and 150 hp or so)

My biggest fix for fights like this was that NPCs start fights with all relevant spells in play. It helps them survive and it helps with the whole action economy thing.

Indeed, an item must take in excess of half it's total HP in damage before it gains the broken condition.

Scarab Sages

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Boss Fight vs. Deskari: I won't bore people with a detailed playback, but here are some key features:

1. divided the party amongst six locations (some were in the enclosed building thing)
2. swarmed the field with balors (those there before and those summoned by Deskari)
3. encased people in mounds of earth via polymorph any object during Deskari's time stop
4. Brawler effectively 1 shotted the balors (as expected, she = CR 25 > advanced balor CR 21) with her fists (damage in the 400s I think)
5. Wizard kept focusing on Deskari with thanatopic mythic fingers of death (2x per turn via greater metamagic rod) for a net 600 damage per turn to the big bad boss. I applied some changes to Deskari (as outlined below) such that Deskari succeeded the Fort save (DC 43 or something due to Mythic Greater Spell Focus + Spell Perfection and Int of 53 or something) all but once and made him was immune to the Con drain/damage.
6. Lizardfolk fighter greater vital striked and, like the brawler, 1 shotted balors. Who needs full round actions anymore?
7. Druid took her time fighting a balor and apocalypse locus (she a new player but was having fun as a giant dragon via shapechange!). Eventually she went to Deskari and with cage enemy prevented him from teleporting away (rolled a nat 20 on to hit)
8. Deskari had mythic power attack and mythic combat expertise active during the fight, so brawler and druid could only hit on 18-20 and fighter (a sentinel of Iomedae) could hit on a 14-20. Party had to use lots of surges to hit Deskari.
9. Deskari killed the fighter and brawler once each (the wizard spent wishes to resurrect the two on the spot) (fighter had 550 hp, AC 40; and brawler ("steel breaker?" archetype) had 250 hp, but AC 60 only against Deskari)
10. PCs won after expending most of their resources and some dumb luck (as it should be). And I ran it such that Deskari's death was permanent (see AP p. 50 or something for details).

I finished Wrath of the Righteous about a month ago and here are a few things I would recommend to make the experience more exciting:

*Demon lords: give them some of the benefits of 10 mythic ranks while in their domains (the +natural armor, +SR, +mythic versions of feats). Don't bother giving them mythic powers (as per the mythic rank) but give them a flat +2 on d20 based rolls (like the ability score increase of the advanced template, but not towards things like AC).

*PCs and path abilities: abilities that give a static benefit dependent on tier should be "+1/2 tier" instead of "+1 per tier), and abilities that give a benefit upon expenditure of mythic power should be "+1 per tier" or whatever they were before (whichever is lower).
This should also be applied to those trait things introduced in the first part of the AP.

Reasons for the changes (based on case studies):
-My party heavily abused AOs with the ever ready mythic ability such that they were effectively getting 4 AOs per round

-the wizard at CL 20 could bypass SR 50 with a 6 on a d20! (CL 20 + archmage trait + mythic spell penetration + greater/regular spell penetration feats = 20 + 10 vs. demons + 10 + 4 = +44 vs. SR). It is my opinion that things with SR with CR higher than the party should ignore 50% of the PCs spells via SR if the PC did everything they could to be an SR badass. I would have been happier if the wizard had +34 vs. SR instead (as per my path ability fixer upper).

-mythic spells that let you outright ignore energy resistance and immunity should be changed to "1/2 of the energy damage is arcane damage that is not susceptible to immunity/resistance". I find it ridiculous that the wizard could mythic empowered fireball and swift mythic empowered fireball (both augmented) for 60d6 fire damage (average 7*30 = 210 damage) without anyone else being damaged (cuz let's face it, everyone knows how to well place a fireball).

*Some of the abilities and feats and spells need revision to be more in line with them (not a lot of them). I will post some of my suggested revisions for anyone to try them in this post.

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