Because one Dominate Monster on the fighter later, and that DPR of his just wiped a member of your team.
Because one Stun effect later, and he's out of commission, and your rocket tag one round kill is on the ground and useless.
Because the minion that got in the way of your one round kill set him up for the bad guy to maul him really bad, and now he can't recover his own hit points...meaning he's dead, because your DPR cleric isn't going to bother to pause to heal him. Too bad, so sad.
And none of those are really Paladin problems.
Note also that movement isn't a paladin problem once you have mithral armor.
note that the FIghter doesn't have a dex advantage with his armor until he actually has that dex and can make use of it. That's generally not until 12+ unless you're playing a dex build.
Because the fighter and paladin can use the exact same point buy, and what the Fighter puts into Wis to bolster his crappy will save the Paladin puts into Cha to bolster ALL his saves, as his Good Will save actually lets him get away with an 8 wis without a problem. Yeah, the Paladin takes 8 Wis where the fighter takes 8 Cha, and the paladin ends up with a net positive! And they both have the same physical ability scores.
Armor Mastery is a crappy argument on all levels. a 1evel 0 DWARF gets the entire benefit.
==Aelryinth
A high enough DPR leads to a one-round, one-turn encounter. Why would you bother building anything else (besides maybe Initiative, which is hardly a hurt on any other investments) than a frontliner who maximizes DPR?
You can't ignore damage as a frontliner.
But you also get punished for ignoring saves, defenses, resiliency.
The higher level the game, the more punishing this becomes, because it becomes less and less likely that you're going to be able to end every encounter in a single turn before they can affect you in any way.
When you're fighting a goblin 2nd level warrior? Yeah, he might be pretty likely to go down without getting a chance to do anything, if you win init. So a myopic focus on DPR makes a little sense here.
When you're fighting the iathavos? Even if your damage could theoretically take it down in a turn, you're going to have to be passing saves just to be near it even if it hasn't done a thing yet.
Also, damage per round is an average assuming ideal circumstances. Average assuming ideal circumstances. That means that even in ideal circumstances, it will not happen all the time. A PC will be in dozens upon dozens of CR-appropriate encounters (not all of them in ideal circumstances). Sometimes you will roll s!*&ty and fail to deal it, and then you will have to survive what follows.
Which is why a powerful class offers a balance of formidable offense, formidable defense, and formidable versatility.
A high enough DPR leads to a one-round, one-turn encounter. Why would you bother building anything else (besides maybe Initiative, which is hardly a hurt on any other investments) than a frontliner who maximizes DPR?You can't ignore damage as a frontliner.
But you also get punished for ignoring saves, defenses, resiliency.
The higher level the game, the more punishing this becomes, because it becomes less and less likely that you're going to be able to end every encounter in a single turn before they can affect you in any way.
When you're fighting a goblin 2nd level warrior? Yeah, he might be pretty likely to go down without getting a chance to do anything, if you win init. So a myopic focus on DPR makes a little sense here.
When you're fighting the iathavos? Even if your damage could theoretically take it down in a turn, you're going to have to be passing saves just to be near it even if it hasn't done a thing yet.
Also, damage per round is an average assuming ideal circumstances. Average assuming ideal circumstances. That means that even in ideal circumstances, it will not happen all the time. A PC will be in dozens upon dozens of CR-appropriate encounters (not all of them in ideal circumstances). Sometimes you will roll s++#ty and fail to deal it, and then you will have to survive what follows.
Which is why a powerful class offers a balance of formidable offense, formidable defense, and formidable versatility.
And the Fighter has to considerably force a lot of what could go into his DPR into those same "formidable defenses" and "versatility". The Paladin doesn't have to do that, making his DPR much better, and with how great his defensive features are, his DPR will be higher, his Defenses will always be higher, no matter how much the Fighter invests into his defenses, and his Versatility will be negligible due to his sheer effectiveness in the other 2 aspects.
The numbers are the numbers; and if the numbers support Paladin being #1 Frontliner instead of Big Stupid Fighter, then there isn't much ground for the Fighter to stand on.
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as a damage class and a melee wall for your casters, i would say that a switch hitter fighter is the best choice.
if you need a hp sponge, or a melee only/ranged only class that excels at anti caster defenses.
in terms of enjoy ability, and flexibility i would suggest a fighter(switch hitter). in terms of overall survive ability i would go with the paladin.
but then again if i were playing a melee character i would build a Dragon Disciple or a barbarian mage killer/debuffer over either choice.
if you need a hp sponge, or a melee only/ranged only class that excels at anti caster defenses.
Doesn't paladin have the better defenses against casters though?
It almost seems as though the Fighter, as a class with few class features and many bonus feats, is a flawed concept at its core. If there are a lot of powerful combat feats, anyone could take them, albeit fewer of them. Paladins could take them and still be better than the Fighter. If the feats are Fighter-only, they might as well be Fighter class features — Otherwise the Magus and Eldritch Knight can still take them, and be better than the Fighter.
It almost seems as though the Fighter, as a class with few class features and many bonus feats, is a flawed concept at its core. If there are a lot of powerful combat feats, anyone could take them, albeit fewer of them.
Almost? That's definitely how it was in 3rd. Pathfinder inherited that too, and without much/if any of the improvements in later books. Not that I mean to start an edition war, but that is definitely one of the core things about the fighter.
This is why I'm looking forward to the Path of War classes.
This is why I'm looking forward to the Path of War classes.
It has alignment restrictions and daily resources. The author is a firm believer in alignment and that its perfect.
Your dreams are now crushed.
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This is why I'm looking forward to the Path of War classes.It has alignment restrictions and daily resources. The author is a firm believer in alignment and that its perfect.
Your dreams are now crushed.
:(
Gods... I hate alignment... It ruins things before they even come into existence...
This is why I'm looking forward to the Path of War classes.It has alignment restrictions and daily resources. The author is a firm believer in alignment and that its perfect.
Your dreams are now crushed.
Assuming you're not just pulling my leg ... yes, yes they are.
Ah well, Tome of Battle works fine still.
Gods... I hate alignment... It ruins things before they even come into existence...
Yes, that was my thought. I usually avoid talking about it because of it. The big thing that annoyed me was that alignment to errantx wasn't arbitrary at all, and it was codified and not up for argument.(I thought it was pretty opinionated). One of the big draws to TOB being a lack of alignment restrictions and daily resources, that's a pretty big mark against it imo. Its not worth toilet paper to me atm because of it.
Assuming you're not just pulling my leg ... yes, yes they are.
I am not. Read the bit at the end of the first one in particular.
Probably way off topic at this point though. I will say I do like TOB and was planning to use a warblade in the next game if I could. Made a good mundane. A large part of power in this game is options, and in pathfinder paladin always looked like it had way more to me than fighter. Or at the very least access to more.
Fast way to ruin a great idea. Ah well, at least I won't waste my time with it.
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I suppose the silver lining is that I'll save a few bucks... -.-'
Too bad, it was one of the few 3pp I was interested in.... Now I feel like it's not worth even looking at.
Alignment restrictions are that bad. While I'm not against daily resources, it goes against the whole point of the book.
I suppose the silver lining is that I'll save a few bucks... -.-'
Too bad, it was one of the few 3pp I was interested in.... Now I feel like it's not worth even looking at.
Alignment restrictions are that bad. While I'm not against daily resources, it goes against the whole point of the book.
While I don't disagree with this, we've really managed to fix the alignment issues in our campaign with regards to the Paladin.
After a great deal of experimentation, with the end goal to separate the Paladin from the Cleric thematically and to ease the stumbling block of alignment restriction, what we've come up with has worked really well - Paladins as avatars of Order (Law), Chaos, Good and Evil.
Basically Paladins work the same way as they do now, except that the alignment buzzwords get switched around - a Paladin of Good has Detect Evil and Smite Evil and can be Lawful Good, Neutral Good or Chaotic Good... its upholding the Good that matters above all else, whereas a Paladin of Chaos has Detect Law and Smite Law and can be Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil. One example we used was as Batman as an Good agent of Chaos, working outside the law to do what those bound by the law cannot, while the Joker was an Evil agent of Chaotic, using evil methods to sow an agenda of Chaos and destruction.
A few slight tweaks to class abilities like Divine Bond, but nothing complicated or counter-intuitive. Its really revitalized the Paladin class for us without any sort of balancing issues whatsoever. I can't recommend this option highly enough.
1 |Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Bows), Point-Blank Shot
10|Bravery, Rapid Shot
11|Armor training, Deadly Aim
12|Far Shot
13|Weapon training(Spears), Leadership
14|Bravery, Mounted Combat
15|Armor training, Mounted Archery
16|Ride-By Attack
17|Weapon training(Close), Spirited Charge
18|Bravery, Trample
19|Armor mastery, Improved Iron Will
20|weapon mastery(GS), Improved Critical(GS)
Mythic Feats: Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, Toughness, Deadly Aim
Mythic Path Abilities: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Crusader, Shatter Spells, Farwalker
So this Fighter's will save at 20 vs a Balor's DC 27 dominate monster is +18 meaning that the fighter has to a roll a 9 or higher to break. That's a 60% chance. Every time the fighter is sent to attack a party member he receives a new saving throw with an 70% chance to pass. This does not take into account improved iron will or a first level spell.
EDIT: So just for clarification the chance that this fighter is dominated and attacks a party member is 12%
I think they were expecting new classes instead of just rebuilds of existing ones. And the wording is that the new classes had alignment restricts.
I.e. 'path of war classes' doesn't mean a rebuild of the core classes. It means 'imports of warblade, crusader, etc' from Tome of War.
Crusader had alignment restricts too, no?
==Aelryinth
IME, Paladins are only a problem if one of the following statements are true:
A- Your GM is being an ass. He will take the code way to seriously, forget the Great Forces of Good are... You know... Good. And take even the slightest infraction as an opportunity to strip the Paladin of his power. He sees the code as a chance to say "Gotcha!" and put the player down. Did the Paladin lie to save a thousand innocents? Too bad! He lied! 1 strike, he's out. Period.
B- Your player is being an ass. He doesn't known how to make concessions. He is either convinced Paladins are all a-holes, or he's so afraid of losing his power that he acts extremely lawful all the freaking time so the GM can't take his powers. The other possibility is that he completely ignores the code, which in turn causes the GM to try and enforce it, which may lead to A.
The Paladin code is poorly written and insanely restrictive. It's okay to beat the hell out the neutral guy if he attacks you... But lying to the demon about where your friends are? Well, that makes you fall.
The Great Forces of Good are supposed to be GOOD. Not tight ass jerks who can't wait to strip their champions of their powers.
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** spoiler omitted **
So this Fighter's will save at 20 vs a Balor's DC 27 dominate monster is +18 meaning that the fighter has to a roll a 9 or higher to break. That's a 60% chance. Every time the fighter is sent to attack a party member he receives a new saving throw with an 70% chance to pass. This does not take into account improved iron will or a first level spell.
EDIT: So just for clarification the chance that this fighter is dominated and attacks a party member is 12%
It's sad that you have to use Mythic rules to give the Fighter a 60% chance of not failing a will save...
It's sad that you have to use Mythic rules to give the Fighter a 60% chance of not failing a will save...** spoiler omitted **
So this Fighter's will save at 20 vs a Balor's DC 27 dominate monster is +18 meaning that the fighter has to a roll a 9 or higher to break. That's a 60% chance. Every time the fighter is sent to attack a party member he receives a new saving throw with an 70% chance to pass. This does not take into account improved iron will or a first level spell.
EDIT: So just for clarification the chance that this fighter is dominated and attacks a party member is 12%
Mythics are not a part of that equation.
I never assume mythics, but I do plan for them.
EDIT: As for the will save. In the case of Dominate Monster being used as anything but a CC, the fighter has an 88% to ignore the effect.
** spoiler omitted **
So this Fighter's will save at 20 vs a Balor's DC 27 dominate monster is +18 meaning that the fighter has to a roll a 9 or higher to break. That's a 60% chance. Every time the fighter is sent to attack a party member he receives a new saving throw with an 70% chance to pass. This does not take into account improved iron will or a first level spell.
EDIT: So just for clarification the chance that this fighter is dominated and attacks a party member is 12%
Different strokes for different folks, but I would never play that Fighter... and that still only addresses one of many issues the Fighter faces that the Paladin doesn't.
I didn't do the math - how much of the Fighter's will save in your example is through the benefit of magic items, which actually have nothing to do with the Fighter as a class but rather are things anyone can buy?
EDIT: As for the will save. In the case of Dominate Monster being used as anything but a CC, the fighter has an 88% to ignore the effect.
Which is not that great for a likely PC-killing result (not just dominated, but dominated into attacking teammates) on a run of the mill (CR wise) encounter against a fighter who has stacked every available feat and trait into his Will save.
This is a scenario where a fighter has a 12% chance of blenderizing his friends in a typical not very hard encounter.
On one of the lowest-DC types of monster abilities.
Willing to bet a paladin with the same feats clocks in at under .1% against Balor dominate inspired teammate slaughter, and he can actually cast those spells that give complete immunity.*
That's more than a hundred times less likely, for anyone counting. More practically, it takes it from something you'd probably expect to happen one or more times over the course of a level (which likely includes enough easy, not-above-APL encounters that ~10% likely results are likely to happen at least once) to very unlikely to actually occur.
(I suspect that a paladin can reach .25% (natural 1 and natural 1) chance of dominated team slaughter without any feat investment at all, which is only about 50 times less often than the fighter).
EDIT: As for the will save. In the case of Dominate Monster being used as anything but a CC, the fighter has an 88% to ignore the effect.Which is not that great for a likely PC-killing result (not just dominated, but dominated into attacking teammates) on a run of the mill (CR wise) encounter against a fighter who has stacked every available feat and trait into his Will save.
This is a scenario where a fighter has a 12% chance of blenderizing his friends in a typical not very hard encounter.
On one of the lowest-DC types of monster abilities.
Willing to bet a paladin with the same feats clocks in at under .1% against Balor dominate inspired teammate slaughter, and he can actually cast those spells that give complete immunity.*
That's more than a hundred times less likely, for anyone counting. More practically, it takes it from something you'd probably expect to happen one or more times over the course of a level (which likely includes enough easy, not-above-APL encounters that ~10% likely results are likely to happen at least once) to very unlikely to actually occur.
(I suspect that a paladin can reach .25% (natural 1 and natural 1) chance of dominated team slaughter without any feat investment at all, which is only about 50 times less often than the fighter).
When you take into account that by level 17 Paladins are not only immune to Charm and Compulsion type effects (as well as Fear), he actually gives his comrades a +4 bonus to saves against such effects, the chances of being a detriment to the party drop to 0. Moreover, we're assuming that the Fighter is instructed to turn on his party - how much does that percentage go up if simply instructed to sit the fight out?
When you take into account that by level 17 Paladins are not only immune to Charm and Compulsion type effects (as well as Fear), he actually gives his comrades a +4 bonus to saves against such effects, the chances of being a detriment to the party drop to 0.
Heh, good point. I was so dazzled by the near impossibility of failing the save that I forgot they get flat out immunity at 17th.
** spoiler omitted **
So this Fighter's will save at 20 vs a Balor's DC 27 dominate monster is +18 meaning that the fighter has to a roll a 9 or higher to break. That's a 60% chance. Every time the fighter is sent to attack a party member he receives a new saving throw with an 70% chance to pass. This does not take into account improved iron will or a first level spell.
EDIT: So just for clarification the chance that this fighter is dominated and attacks a party member is 12%
Different strokes for different folks, but I would never play that Fighter... and that still only addresses one of many issues the Fighter faces that the Paladin doesn't.
I didn't do the math - how much of the Fighter's will save in your example is through the benefit of magic items, which actually have nothing to do with the Fighter as a class but rather are things anyone can buy?
+5 from a cloak of resistance.
Second, Unless you are going with sub optimal combat styles fighter DPR is never bad.
Just grabbing power attack and first weapon training as heavy blades guarantees that your DPR is never bad. You then have 20-21 feats and 3 weapon trainings to play with.
Second, Unless you are going with sub optimal combat styles fighter DPR is never bad.
To be fair I've found some issues keeping offense a serious threat when building archetypes that give up Weapon Training.
With Weapon Training, and assuming you always have the weapon in question, you're likely to have high enough attack and damage numbers, yeah.
The Paladin over all always brings more to a party. But Paladin may no fit every party due the Paladin code.
I mean I'd prefer a Paladin over a fighter in Wrath of the Righteous AP any day but I'd rather a fighter in the Skull and Shackles AP.
I would say if your group includes a Cleric and you're not guaranteed to be fighting highly aligned enemies (outsiders and undead) then the fighter might be the better way to go. It offers more consistent damage and higher AC.
The Paladin excels at self healing, and has better saves. Against non evil targets its a crappier fighter lacking the diversity of feats or the fighters weapon training.
Second, Unless you are going with sub optimal combat styles fighter DPR is never bad.
Wouldn't you say that being Paralyzed makes their DPR really low?
I can say that I have seen paladin taht can not attack in a given turn because they were slow enough to not get to the enemy, while the barbarian, the ranger, the rogue and the magus did.Second, Unless you are going with sub optimal combat styles fighter DPR is never bad.Wouldn't you say that being Paralyzed makes their DPR really low?
And I have seen Druids fail saving throws. IME being just far enough to be the only one to not attack the enemy doesn't happen nearly as often as rolling saving throws to resist effects that would make you incapable of moving and/or attacking effectively.
I'd say Paladin have better overall mobility than Fighters, though. Armor training is nice, but mithral armor is really common and flight's almost obligatory at higher levels.
OTOH, Paladins have spells Grace and Burst of Speed (and these are just the ones that are cast as a Swift Action!). If they can afford to raise Int, Paladins can take Unsanctioned Knowledge to get spells like Bladed Dash, Freedom of Movement, Air Walk, Haste and even Dimension Door.
Or, they can use a Mithral Breastplate for the higher move speed and then use that same feat to get spells like Mirror Image, Stoneskin, (Greater) Invisibility, Heroism and Good Hope. All of which more than make up for the +3 to AC that a full plate grants over a breastplate.
They can also use Mercies to remove conditions such as Fatigued, Exhausted and Staggered.
And of course, since the Wizard doesn't have to dispel/prevent the Slow/Fear/Dominate/Paralyze/Whatever effect on the Paladin, he can instead use that standard action to cast Haste and double the Paladin's speed.
So, yeah... IMHO, Paladins have better mobility than Fighters.
I concede that at higher levels I can not keep the fighter will save high enough.
Try making them Half-Elves. (IMO, a close 2nd best race for Fighters, losing only to Oni-spawn tieflings).
Would you then agree to a build comparision? I will like to try the new feats from the later books.
Didn't we see and do this before... Like a million times? Building high level characters is... tiresome.
That will give me another +2, which is nice but still.
But well, I rarely play in the 15+ levels.
Half-Elves can trade the skill-Focus for +2 racial bonus to Will save. Then they get the elves' +2 bonus against enchantment and downright immunity to magic sleep effects. Add a trait for +1 will save, and you got a +5. You have so many feats that you can afford Iron Will even if you're not human. That's a +5~+7 on most will saves. It at least puts them on par with Wizards.
Admittedly, nothing of that is Fighter Specific, but it can work...
I remember fighter/barbarian, fighter/ ranger, but well It does not matter, I concede that in the double digit levels the paladin inmunities and better saves (and other things) are not matched by the fighter.
I do not think that is the case from 1 to level 10 though, after that a little of multiclassing could help (like 3 levels in chevalier)
Well... From levels 1~6 they both have the same movement speed. At 7th, Fighters become faster in heavy armor (if they are using medium armor, then there's a good chance that the Paladin could afford a mithral breastplate with the gold he saved on Cloaks of Resistance, since he doesn't really need those 'til later).
I was talking about taht +2 to will saves. And the feat and the trait are like must haves That I almost always compute in the build.
At level 20
+6 base +5 wis +5 enhacement +1 luck +1 competence + 1 trait +2 feat +2 half elf for a +23
Not bad for the secondary abilities with DC 24-28 but not sure that much for the dc 30+.
+25 vs Enchantment... But yeah, you can't expect a miracle. Their saves will never be great, just... Not horrible.
At that level you should probably factor Greater Heroism too, that's another +4 morale bonus.... So there is that.
Would you then agree to a build comparision? I will like to try the new feats from the later books.Didn't we see and do this before... Like a million times? Building high level characters is... tiresome.
And remember, this discussion isn't meant to be a comparison at 20th level, its meant to be a comparison 1-20, to better reflect the levels these classes are actually getting played at. I also want to encourage comparisons without any magical equipment so that we are actually comparing the classes and not what they might by to make up for inherent weaknesses.
My Tiefling Paladin has a higher Strength score than his Fighter counterpart due to Eldritch Heritage feats (which Fighters can rarely if ever use due to Charisma being a traditional dump stat) which more than makes up for lack of Weapon Training and applies to any weapon, not just a specific one or group. Also, at 20th level he self-heals for 100 hit points of damage and removes conditions as a swift action 22 times a day - that's 2,200 more hit points than a Fighter would have access to each day. By itself that fact seems to make the discussion moot - but when you start adding in spells like Bloodsworn Retribution or Litany of Righteousness it goes off the charts.
Its obvious that I have my opinions made up, fostered by my own play experience... I started this thread wondering if there was anything I had over-looked in the comparisons between the two.
Would you then agree to a build comparision? I will like to try the new feats from the later books.Didn't we see and do this before... Like a million times? Building high level characters is... tiresome.
And remember, this discussion isn't meant to be a comparison at 20th level, its meant to be a comparison 1-20, to better reflect the levels these classes are actually getting played at. I also want to encourage comparisons without any magical equipment so that we are actually comparing the classes and not what they might by to make up for inherent weaknesses.
My Tiefling Paladin has a higher Strength score than his Fighter counterpart due to Eldritch Heritage feats (which Fighters can rarely if ever use due to Charisma being a traditional dump stat) which more than makes up for lack of Weapon Training and applies to any weapon, not just a specific one or group. Also, at 20th level he self-heals for 100 hit points of damage and removes conditions as a swift action 22 times a day - that's 2,200 more hit points than a Fighter would have access to each day. By itself that fact seems to make the discussion moot - but when you start adding in spells like Bloodsworn Retribution or Litany of Righteousness it goes off the charts.
Its obvious that I have my opinions made up, fostered by my own play experience... I started this thread wondering if there was anything I had over-looked in the comparisons between the two.
When you look at level 20 builds it's heavily in favor of the Paladin, but before that the main points you just mentioned are not nearly as good. At level 19, that Paladin will heal for a measly 31.5 pts of damage on average. It's not until it's maximized that the healing becomes a major boon. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not as overwhelmingly good as you make it sound. Now, where it does excel is removing conditions. Which is an incredibly handy thing the fighter can't do.
And while the fighter might not normally qualify for Eldritch Heritage, he can still reach it with just a 9 in Cha to start with. And, while the fighter may not normally start with high Cha due to dumping it means he can start with a higher combinaiton of Str/Dex/Con than the Paladin.
I guess my point is don't look at just the end game of the two because it isn't a fair shake.
Would you then agree to a build comparision? I will like to try the new feats from the later books.Didn't we see and do this before... Like a million times? Building high level characters is... tiresome.
And remember, this discussion isn't meant to be a comparison at 20th level, its meant to be a comparison 1-20, to better reflect the levels these classes are actually getting played at. I also want to encourage comparisons without any magical equipment so that we are actually comparing the classes and not what they might by to make up for inherent weaknesses.
My Tiefling Paladin has a higher Strength score than his Fighter counterpart due to Eldritch Heritage feats (which Fighters can rarely if ever use due to Charisma being a traditional dump stat) which more than makes up for lack of Weapon Training and applies to any weapon, not just a specific one or group. Also, at 20th level he self-heals for 100 hit points of damage and removes conditions as a swift action 22 times a day - that's 2,200 more hit points than a Fighter would have access to each day. By itself that fact seems to make the discussion moot - but when you start adding in spells like Bloodsworn Retribution or Litany of Righteousness it goes off the charts.
Its obvious that I have my opinions made up, fostered by my own play experience... I started this thread wondering if there was anything I had over-looked in the comparisons between the two.
When you look at level 20 builds it's heavily in favor of the Paladin, but before that the main points you just mentioned are not nearly as good. At level 19, that Paladin will heal for a measly 31.5 pts of damage on average. It's not until it's maximized that the healing becomes a major boon. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not as overwhelmingly good as you make it sound. Now, where it does excel is removing conditions. Which is an incredibly handy thing the fighter can't do.
And while the fighter might not normally qualify for Eldritch Heritage, he can still reach it with just a 9 in Cha to start with. And, while the fighter may not normally start with high Cha due to dumping it means he can start with a higher combinaiton of Str/Dex/Con than the Paladin.
I guess my point is don't look at just the end game of the two because it isn't a fair shake.
As I mention in the post you quoted, this is meant to be a comparison level 1-20, not just the end-game build (which none of us ever really get to play anyway)... having said that, I recognize that Lay on Hands is one of the best class features in the game and build my Paladins accordingly - at 19th that same Paladin mentioned above would heal, on average, 65 points per use, not 31.5.
And yes, the Fighter would have more opportunity to expand his Con and Dex scores, but he'd have to, just to keep up with the Paladin's Charisma enhanced saves and Hands-enhanced hit points... and we haven't even gotten to Wisdom yet.
I do agree that as the two classes level up, the gap between them diverges ever-wider.
If I were to offer up a generic build for comparison's sake, I'd probably just got with a Human rather than a specialized race like the Tiefling (which is what we're playing in Wrath of the Righteous just now). I always play Oath of Vengeance Paladins, and without trying to tailor it to any specific circumstance feat selection would look something like this ...
1st - Fey Foundling
1st - Power Attack
3rd - Deadly Aim
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Extra Lay on Hands
9th - Skill Focus: Survival
11th - Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline - Touch of Rage)
13th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline - Strength of the Beast)
15th - Extra Lay on Hands
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline - Power of Giants)
19th - Extra Lay on Hands
At 17th level (still high, but just for instance), he'd be getting +6 Strength from Strength of the Beast, +6 Strength from Power of Giants (along with -2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Natural Armor and Reach)... and then Bloodsworn Retribution alone would grant another +5 to attacks, saves and checks with more or less unlimited duration... all of which would work against Neutrally-aligned foes just as well as against Evil. And then using Divine Bond a non-magical weapon can be made into a +2 weapon with Speed, so...
...an extra attack at full BAB, +4 Natural Armor, +13 attack, +11 damage, +5 saves and +5 skill checks without even considering Smite - and again, that's keeping magic items completely out of the equation as well. Kinda leaves Weapon Training out in the cold in my opinion.
As I mention in the post you quoted, this is meant to be a comparison level 1-20, not just the end-game build (which none of us ever really get to play anyway)... having said that, I recognize that Lay on Hands is one of the best class features in the game and build my Paladins accordingly - at 19th that same Paladin mentioned above would heal, on average, 65 points per use, not 31.5.
What am I missing then?
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
At 19th level he would heal 9d6. The average of 9d6 is 31.5.
Now, I can see your build where you add Fey Foundling. Which adds an additional 18 hit points per LoH. But you should bear in mind not everyone will make the same build you are. Not everyone is going to super emphasize LoH as you have. And, further Fey Foundling is from a non-core source. Something that I as GM, for instance, don't allow access to. I'm not sure how you're getting 65 points on average, because even after the extra 18 is only 49.5.
Just going to chip in to fill in some info. Tiefling paladins have the following favored class bonus, from the ARG.
Paladin: Add +1 to the amount of damage the paladin heals with lay on hands, but only when the paladin uses that ability on herself.
Crusader had alignment restricts too, no?
I guess it depends on how you view a restriction. So there was a single alignment you couldn't use arbitrarily for the class, but alignment largely didn't affect the class or its abilities and the discipline itself had no restriction.
Don't suppose we could compare them at level 2 or 5 instead if your going to compare the two classes. Rare you even get to see a game reach 20 and it turns into a slightly different game, imo.