Hey guys, have a question on you for dispelling perm spells. For our example were going to use a druid that has a level 16 greater magic fang made permanent by a level 12 wizard.
The first question is: how do you resolve the dispel. Are there two spells affecting him or just the magic fang as permanency is targeting the actual spell.
IF there is only 1 spell, I'm assuming it greater magic fang and the dispel is going against the CL 16.
BUT if there is 2 spells...what happens if only 1 of them gets dispelled. Say...magic fang, does permanency bring it back as a free action on its turn. What is the result of permanency being dispelled but not greater magic fang. Gets immediately dispelled or the duration continues from where it left off.
Thanks guys!
Magic fang affects the druid. Permanency affects the spell.
When casting dispel magic, you can target an object, creature, or spell. If you cast dispel magic on the druid, you make the first dispel check against permanency; success means that the permanency spell is dissolved, and magic fang follows unless it's still under its original duration. If not, then magic fang is targeted next; success means that magic fang is dissolved, and permanency, having no target, becomes moot.
If you choose to target a spell instead, then you name which spell you wish to target.
blahpers wrote: Magic fang affects the druid. Permanency affects the spell.
When casting dispel magic, you can target an object, creature, or spell. If you cast dispel magic on the druid, you make the first dispel check against permanency; success means that the permanency spell is dissolved, and magic fang follows unless it's still under its original duration. If not, then magic fang is targeted next; success means that magic fang is dissolved, and permanency, having no target, becomes moot.
If you choose to target a spell instead, then you name which spell you wish to target.
Does the duration of Magic Fang continue to expire after permanency has been cast on it, or does it's duration effectively pause until the permanency is removed?
The rules don't really cover it. I'd treat it the former way.
Hmm, thanks for the info. Sad to see a perm enlarge dispelled by a level 1 wizard and shrink.
Seravix wrote: Hmm, thanks for the info. Sad to see a perm enlarge dispelled by a level 1 wizard and shrink. What?
A level 1 caster is never going to Dispel a level 12 casters spells because he can't beat the DC needed:
DC=23 (11+12) vs d20+1
Or did you mean something else?
Secondly the Wizard needs to be both the caster of the spell to be made permanent (in this case Greater Magic Fang) and Permanency itself.
CRB wrote: You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell I asked how a wizard could cast Greater Magic Fang (given it isn't on his list) in another thread and the only response was "Scrolls". An answer that I find lacking a bit given the scrolls creator does most of the actual "casting" leaving "All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on)" but then again *shrug* don't know of any other method either.
I play dirty and layer the Permanency affects makeing the dispeller take out two or three to get to the origin spell.
It's expensive but makes dispelling in combat worthless.
You realize they can just target the permanency'd spell directly right?
blahpers wrote: Magic fang affects the druid. Permanency affects the spell.
When casting dispel magic, you can target an object, creature, or spell. If you cast dispel magic on the druid, you make the first dispel check against permanency; success means that the permanency spell is dissolved, and magic fang follows unless it's still under its original duration. If not, then magic fang is targeted next; success means that magic fang is dissolved, and permanency, having no target, becomes moot.
If you choose to target a spell instead, then you name which spell you wish to target.
Huh?
This is not how I've ever seen it run. I've always seen it as permanency makes the spell permanent, at which point it is like any other spell with a duration of "permanent", meaning you can dispel it and it goes away.
Permanency is permanent duration rather than instantaneous. It doesn't change the target spell's duration itself. Rather permanency keeps the duration permanent.
Quote: This spell makes the duration of certain other spells permanent. Get rid of permanency and the duration goes back to normal. There are two spells in effect with a permanency'd spell.
I don't think that's the intent at all. I think the intent is that permanency modifies the other spell.
To put it another way: Imagine that you could pick the thing you wanted to dispel. Why would you ever waste time dispelling permanency? Dispel the other effect and it goes away, and the question of whether its duration is modified or not becomes irrelevant.
If I were going to write the rules, mind, I'd give permanency itself a duration of "instantaneous" because it's a change to another thing which is then an enduring change, not itself a separate effect. But I don't think they specifically meant to make it require a separate dispel.
And even if they did, it hardly matters in practice, because there's virtually no chance that the original duration won't have long-since expired when you dispel the new effect. The only difference I see is in the caster level of the thing you're trying to dispel, and that's not necessarily something people bother to record anyway.
But I'm not gonna regard permanency as a separate effect to dispel without some kind of more solid citation.
EDIT: I've thought about this more, and I think it doesn't matter. When you cast a targeted dispel on a person, you are targeting the spells on them. But permanency isn't cast on them, it's cast on the spells on them. So it's not even an effect on them in the first place. So you never hit it with your dispel, any more than you would affect other magical effects near them but which are not actually affecting them. Instead you hit the spells on them, and once those spells are dispelled, the permanency becomes irrelevant. The duration of a spell which is dispelled does not matter.
I was under the impression that Permanency wasn't directly dispellable; just the spells themselves, and they ended like they always would when dispelled: instantly unless stated (like with Fly).
You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.
Spell Minimum Caster Level GP Cost
Arcane sight 11th 7,500 gp
Comprehend languages 9th 2,500 gp
Darkvision 10th 5,000 gp
Detect magic 9th 2,500 gp
Read magic 9th 2,500 gp
See invisibility 10th 5,000 gp
Tongues 11th 7,500 gp
You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.
Permanency is permanent duration. That makes it subject to dispel magic.
blahpers wrote: When casting dispel magic, you can target an object, creature, or spell. If you cast dispel magic on the druid, you make the first dispel check against permanency; success means that the permanency spell is dissolved, and magic fang follows unless it's still under its original duration. If not, then magic fang is targeted next; success means that magic fang is dissolved, and permanency, having no target, becomes moot. Fixed that (sounded like you were letting dispel magic target multiple spells - it only works on one spell now.
I'm actually shocked - not a big deal but I would have sworn there was text saying that you had to dispel the permanency, not the spell it targets, but 3.0/3.5/PF all don't say that.
For the list Zotpox listed, you have to be higher level than the wizard who cast permanency was when he cast it. For any other spell made permanent, it's a regular dispel check.
For the record, if you straight out target "the druid", your {single} dispel check will go against the spell with the highest caster level, and then on down until it's successful once. Unless you paid for an extra high-level casting, permanent spells tend to be the last spells targeted (but most often succeeded against), since their caster level tends to fall behind other active spells.
For example, if someone had a 20th CL mage armor[i], a 16th CL [i]greater magic fang, and a 10th CL haste (e.g. boots of speed), then here's what would happen if someone cast dispel magic on him:
Check result:
31+, mage armor dispelled.
27-30, greater magic fang dispelled.
21-26, haste dispelled.
20-, nothing dispelled.
Hmmmmmm.
So, you can adjust caster level. You can lower the caster level of a spell, but not below the minimum level you could cast it at. But...
Permanency has a list of minimum level you have to be to make certain effects permanent. Do you have to then cast permanency at that caster level, or can you reduce it to 9th (or 10th) or so? Do you have to have used a given caster level on the affected spell?
And then, once you've done that... Is the permanency still a separate thing you can try to dispel? If so, does it matter which of either the permanency or the affected spell you dispel? It seems like if the spell's original duration would be up, then it doesn't matter; either there's no spell left for permanency to modify, or the spell's duration is up. So with a plain dispel magic, you'd hit one of them and the other would pop.
Soooo. Say you use greater dispel magic and you target someone who has multiple effects. If the caster level ordering is such that the permanency and the other spell would both be in the set affected, does dispelling one break the other so it doesn't use one of your number of affects dispelled?
... I think this is pretty complicated.
I have found in high level play that you want a magic item over a permanent spell because Disjunction washes the spell away without the courtesy of a dispel check. Permanency gets expensive when you have to refresh it every 5 combats.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seravix wrote: Hmm, thanks for the info. Sad to see a perm enlarge dispelled by a level 1 wizard and shrink. It'd be rather hard to do since it takes a minimum of level 5 for a wizard to cast such a spell. If said wizard uses a high level scroll, the level of that scroll sets the DC for the caster level check.
Kayerloth wrote: Seravix wrote: Hmm, thanks for the info. Sad to see a perm enlarge dispelled by a level 1 wizard and shrink. What?
A level 1 caster is never going to Dispel a level 12 casters spells because he can't beat the DC needed:
DC=23 (11+12) vs d20+1
Or did you mean something else?
LazorX wrote: It'd be rather hard to do since it takes a minimum of level 5 for a wizard to cast such a spell. If said wizard uses a high level scroll, the level of that scroll sets the DC for the caster level check.
A level 1 wizard can cast reduce person, and that automatically succeeds are dispelling enlarge person (Reduce person counters and dispels enlarge person) without need to save or make caster level checks via the fax.
(Dispel Example: You are a 5th-level wizard, your opponent is a 6th-level sorcerer. On her turn, the sorcerer casts slow and targets 6 of your allies; all 6 of them fail their saves and are slowed. On your turn, you cast haste and target 5 of your allies; this automatically dispels (no caster level check needed) the slow spell on those allies, leaving them without the effect of slow or haste (your 6th ally is still affected by slow). Note that this does not merely suppress the slow effect for the duration of your haste—the effect is completely dispelled on those 5 allies. Note that it doesn't matter if the target would normally get a saving throw or spell resistance to negate or avoid the spell used to dispel (such as casting slow to dispel an already-caste haste); to speed up gameplay and prevent lopsided applications of this sort of dispelling, the "diametrically opposed" spell automatically dispels its opposite, regardless of the desires of the creature affected by the opposite.)
Sooo, reduce kills enlarge...looking like it kills maybe perm enlarge as well? =(
As for this,
Kayerloth wrote: CRB wrote: You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell
I asked how a wizard could cast Greater Magic Fang (given it isn't on his list) in another thread and the only response was "Scrolls". An answer that I find lacking a bit given the scrolls creator does most of the actual "casting" leaving "All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on)" but then again *shrug* don't know of any other method either.
You could cast limited wish or use magic device. But my guess is that "you practically" don't need to cast the spell. I really don't see an issue with a druid coming along and casting magic fang on you and you perm your self.
Thanks now I'm on the same page with you ... for some reason I didn't connect 'Shrink' with Reduce Person (My mind went to Shrink Item instead).
As for the Greater Magic Fang, I mentioned it for clarity as this is the rules forum. If your GM doesn't have an issue with a "cooperative" casting for Permanency I can't think of, off the top of my head, a reason to advise against it.
It may not be RAW, but I wouldn't have a random Reduce Person completely dispel a permanent Enlarge Person. I'd probably just have the Enlarge suppressed for the duration of the Reduce Person. At the very least there would be some caster checks involved.
fretgod99 wrote: It may not be RAW, but I wouldn't have a random Reduce Person completely dispel a permanent Enlarge Person. I'd probably just have the Enlarge suppressed for the duration of the Reduce Person. At the very least there would be some caster checks involved. I'm in agreement here at least emotionally, particularly in the case above where normally the Dispeller would have NO chance of Dispelling the spell made permanent if using Dispel Magic.
Then again our higher level character should have a pretty good idea this weakness exists and either be willing to put up with the aggravation or take measures to oppose it if the spell is critical somehow to his functioning i.e. do some counterspelling himself to prevent the 1st level wizard from even getting off the spell (or have it in a Ring of Counterspells etc. etc.).
I'll also point out that a level difference between casters is also going to be a common thing and hence the difference in durations between the Enlarge and Reduce spells already likely exists, Permanency merely exaggerates this duration difference. If it only suppresses when used against a Permanent version of the spell why doesn't it do the same the rest of the time? The only thing bothering either of us is the rather hypothetical and extreme example where there is sufficient level difference to make dispelling the spell otherwise impossible.
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