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I've been GM'ing Pathfinder for a few years now and am finding it hard to manage Archer characters. With the multitude of feats available to fighters I've had 2 players in different games build archers that basically cut everything to ribbons.
In one of my games I had one particular character firing 5 arrows a round.
In my opinion they are overpowered and they cause serious unbalance in the game.
I'm currently running the Shattered Star AP and, after the death of his Alchemist, one of the players has decided to replace it with an archer and it is already wreaking havoc.
I'm not a GM that will kill someone off just to make things easier, but I'd really appreciate advice on how to limit their impact. All within the rules of course.
Thanking you in advance.
Prux.
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Sunder and the Shatter spell. Bows are fragile.
Also, cover/concealment, terrain, tight quarters and narrow corridors. Don't make every battlefield an optimum stage for an archer to use their range. Some fights should be in areas that limit them.
Protection from arrows spells, tower shields and the like.
Wind wall or, better yet Fickle Winds will wreck an archer's day. That being said, it is clearly a case of a GM shutting down a PC completely, which can go over poorly. I do agree with you that one optimized archer can be a problem, my suggestion would be talking to the player out of game about it.
Melee classes need to move to get adjacent to their target, negating their ability to full attack. Archers can full attack almost all of the time.
Zen archers can get Point Blank Shot (ignore shooting in melee range), Improved Precise Shot (ignore cover), and Clustered Shots (ignore damage reduction) which lets them overcome most of the weaknesses of archery. Yet, there are no feats to allow melee classes to pounce, or a melee version of Clustered Shots, in order to overcome their weakness.
Maybe not allow some of the archery feats, or instead allow melee classes to get houserule feats that allow pounce and clustered attacks.
Use enemies with Step Up and Combat Reflexes or enemies with extra reach. Unless they're a specific three classes, they'll provoke AoOs with every attack.
If you have a problem with archery simply ask your players not to make dedicated archers, if they insist tell them that every enemy is going to have a scroll of fickle winds and a dose of dust of emulation which he will activate prior to combat when possible.
In my half awake state I opened this waiting to see stats for characters from the show Archer.
On the plus side plenty of good info here. Also I now picture Prux's characters shooting arrows at a guy in full concealment and hes yelling back at them "YOUR ARROWS ARE NOT RECOGNIZED IN FORT KICK A$$!!!" (Archer show reference).
Now I am running off to stat some of them out lol
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In a vacuum, archery is hands down the single greatest way to do damage.
--All the attacks of two-weapon fighting while only having one weapon to enchant. Manyshot is, in almost all cases, flat out better than improved two-weapon fighting.
--Ammunition adds quite a bit of versatility.
--Can full attack without having to close distance.
--Deadly Aim is as good as Power Attack for the most part.
--Weapon damage differences between ranged and melee is negligible.
Fortunately Pathfinder doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Have you read the rules for cover and concealment? Really read them? Gigantic pain in the ass. A DM can throw around pretty massive penalties practically at a whim and none of it is far fetched or out of the question.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
and:
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)
Those are separate rules. Separate modifiers. Chances are, if you're firing into melee (-4 to hit) the enemy also has cover from your big fat friend (+4 AC). That's a swing of 8. Huge.
Precise Shot only negates the -4 to hit. That's why Precise Shot is so important, though it doesn't make the cover rules go away....
So if there are 2 creatures between the attacker and the defender would that mean the attack is at -8?
It doesn't matter how many creatures are between here and there, it's all the same modifier. Though you have to remove all the creatures to get rid of said modifier.
As for arrows carried, have you seen the Iconics? They are walking armories. But it's really up to you. If I were shooting 5 arrows/rd, I might carry 100 too. That's only 20 rounds of full attacks. 40 if the averages hold true. Arrows have a 50/50 chance of breaking when shot, after all, and who knows how long it'll be before you get back to a fletcher.
I can tell you from real life combat archery experience (SCA and some of medieval combat sports) that managing more than one quiver and being able to move around at all is rediculously cumbersome. Your best bet with a quiver for combat is on your hip for a cleaner draw and lower profile and your standard 30" arrow is a pain in the ass to run around with them banging around your knees. Three is probably the max, one on each hip and one on the back but the one on your hip with the bracing arm isn't going to be any use for combat archery.
Game mechanics wise your guy gets one quiver that he can reload as a move action. Ammo is the weak spot of archery, if you're letting him get away with the 100 arrows on hand at all times that's part of your problem. Going back to real life, carrying 100 arrows in any fashion where they'd be readily available would be rediculously cumbersome, most quivers will hold between 10 and 40 without becoming so full you can't draw clean without showering arrows everywhere. Keep in mind however that presetting arrows was a real thing, meaning actual archers could stab arrows into the ground to have them ready at their feet to draw and fire which gives you more on hand but if you have to scramble you lose them.
Emphasis mine. I fully agree with this. Have him switch out quivers as at least a full-round action after he expends his quiver. That sounds not unreasonable at all. Your combats may not last 4 rounds, but it's something.
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One thing that was not touched on here is that NPC's are not in general stupid. Unless they have animal intelligence they should be able to pick out which enemy is the most dangerous. I know in my games at least casters often find themselves being swarmed as soon as they let it be known that they are casting spells. Why? Do you think goblins are just going to line up to go toe-to-toe with the fighter all the while getting pelted by magic missiles or scorching rays? All the while ignoring the cleric standing right behind the fighter continuously casting cure light wounds?
The OP is correct that Archery can get out of hand... that is why it was such a useful combat tactic in real life. Its easier to replace an arrow than it is a trained soldier. I would say the next time your group is in a mass battle, put the archer in a situation where he either is forced to switch to melee or let him take the AoO using the bow in melee.
A word of warning though... do not "punish" the player or make it so that he can never use the character as he built it, this will create undo tension. Its better to just tweak encounters from time to time giving the archer some difficulty. This goes for any build really. If you crush their spirit by making it impossible to do what the build was for, it takes away their enjoyment of the game.
Just my 2 cents
Terrain. Terrain. Terrain. Can't shoot what you can't see. If archery is so good, enemies should be using it against your archers. From a hard to reach terrain. Where they are behind cover, such as a low wall that only covers half their height where they are closer to the cover than their target is.
Basically, if the archer is THE threat the NPCs and creatures should treat him/her as such.
Monks that have a very fast movement (especially with haste or boots of striding anf springing, both?) can cover a lot of ground and if they have the step up feat chain can stay in h2h.
Monks as well as many monsters can also grapple...
Melee characters can still strike an invisible character but a ranged character cannot target one.
Spellcaster can warp wood, use means to grapple such characters at range...
IOW, if the archer shows himself to be the threat then the "bad guys" should try to deal with him.
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Have you read the rules for cover and concealment? Really read them? Gigantic pain in the ass. A DM can throw around pretty massive penalties practically at a whim and none of it is far fetched or out of the question.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If from this corner to of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
This is soooo important, and sooo often mis-ruled or ignored... Yet, it is the single easiest way to ruin an archer's day simply by playing the rule correctly...
The Archer chooses the most favourable corner from his square and draws a line to the LEAST favourable corner of the targets' square. If there is anything in the way, significant penalties are applied (until that Archer gets Improved Precise Shot).
I play an Archer in my current game, and if I'm not on top of calculating my own penalties and playing fair - the GM usually misses this... In fact just last night I had to have him re-read this part of the rules when I told him why I was taking so many penalties... He was perfectly content to let me not have an extra -4 when this line grazed the corner of an allies square...
dont forget to put players in a dynamic environment, it is not just terrain and obstacles.
Rain and wind reduce archer accuracy and visibility considerably.
Dump them in a room that fills with water and activates a summon of some kind, even with freedom of movement he will have many penalties and dont do much damage.
Towershields, not a bad thing to have lying around if you are a fighter guarding something of importance.
Spells can foil archer's attempts quite readily, a readied action might waste the archer's opportunity to attack someone else by placing a windwall infront of him at just the right time.
Deflect arrows is great, it can deflect the first two arrows if the archer uses manyshot, multiple opponents with deflect arrows can cut heavily into his supremacy of the encounter.
Damage reduction can work well, generally inflicting less damage than melee fighters with heavy weaponry. Even better with deflect arrows.
Force them to move, light the area on fire, unleash some dangerous critter that is easily avoided if you move etc.
Combine multiple tactics to make things really hard on your archers.
Also create encounters that are not just about damage dealing, force them to think to overcome an encounter rather than simple damage dealing.
Creatures with spring attack or incorporeal creatures can be frustrating as they tend to use cover very well.
entanglement is easy to inflict and a real pain for archers with penalties to hit and dexterity penalties on top of that, also..
Try grappling them, they probably ain't all that great grappling, and entangled foes have hefty penalties to grapple.
Darkness is also an easy one, darkvision or low light vision has it's limits.. use that. Illuminate the party and unleash some ranged attacks of your own without them being able to return fire for the first round, maybe two. A faerie fire trap or spell is simple but deadly in the right conditions.
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There’s another issue here in that a Archer usually brings nothing but DPR to the team. A Tank blocks and does damage, a arcane caster does battlefield control, area effects, buffing & utility spells, etc. True, some archers are ranger based, so they have some decent skills.
Anyway, a better solution is “Bob, D&D is a game, and the idea of the game is for everyone to have fun. I am not having fun with your archer in the game. It’s too hard to balance encounters, and it’s going to be hard to make encounters which will challenge the whole party. Can you come up with a new PC- Thanks!”
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Another spell (cast by an invisible sprite or fey...) that is fun to use against characters and could be very useful against the archer is...Mad Monkeys.
MAD MONKEYS
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 3, druid 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 3
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect swarm of monkeys
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You summon a swarm of screeching, mischievous monkeys. The swarm understands and obeys your commands and has the statistics of a monkey swarm. Creatures failing a saving throw against the mad monkeys' distraction attack are deafened for 1 minute as well as nauseated. The monkeys attempt one disarm or steal combat maneuver each turn as a free action against any creature that begins its turn in the swarm, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for druids and oracles; Charisma for bards, sorcerers, and summoners) for its CMB. Recovering an item from the monkeys requires a successful disarm or steal attempt against that CMB + 10. An object stolen by the monkeys takes swarm damage each round the swarm is in possession of the object.
To me, a DM should allow all the players to feel like a hero part of the time.
This means making encounters so that the archer deals lots of damage. This means making an encounter where a certain spell, or a disabled trap, saves the day.
If you are out to shut-down an archer in all encounters, you are essentially meta-gaming and the player should call you out on it. Furthermore, it just shuts down the enemy's ability to use range as well. It's a two-way street.
Anyway, I play a fairly optimized Druid and I notice at times I can dominate an encounter, and there are times when I choose not to engage but to "guard" or be a lookout, and the fight takes a lot longer and our DM yesterday said "Wow, I can't believe how long this fight is taking against 3 scrubs.", when I don't think he noticed I wasn't really participating in the fight.
So, DM's have a responsibility to make sure everyone is a hero, and optimized players sometimes need to step away and let others be a hero occasionally when the DM doesn't seem to be compensating.
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I've been GM'ing Pathfinder for a few years now and am finding it hard to manage Archer characters. With the multitude of feats available to fighters I've had 2 players in different games build archers that basically cut everything to ribbons.
In one of my games I had one particular character firing 5 arrows a round.
In my opinion they are overpowered and they cause serious unbalance in the game.
I'm currently running the Shattered Star AP and, after the death of his Alchemist, one of the players has decided to replace it with an archer and it is already wreaking havoc.
I'm not a GM that will kill someone off just to make things easier, but I'd really appreciate advice on how to limit their impact. All within the rules of course.
Thanking you in advance.
Prux.
Easiest fix in the world: track ammo.
Even Legolas had to draw his blades at some point.
I've been GM'ing Pathfinder for a few years now and am finding it hard to manage Archer characters. With the multitude of feats available to fighters I've had 2 players in different games build archers that basically cut everything to ribbons.
In one of my games I had one particular character firing 5 arrows a round.
In my opinion they are overpowered and they cause serious unbalance in the game.
I'm currently running the Shattered Star AP and, after the death of his Alchemist, one of the players has decided to replace it with an archer and it is already wreaking havoc.
I'm not a GM that will kill someone off just to make things easier, but I'd really appreciate advice on how to limit their impact. All within the rules of course.
Thanking you in advance.
Prux.
Easiest fix in the world: track ammo.
Even Legolas had to draw his blades at some point.
Very true. Just watch Desolation of Smaug, half the time Legolas is two weapon fighting.
An idea to non-destructively motivate move actions every turn among ranged attackers:
Barrels of oil, small enough fit in... Catapults, small enough to fire often. Enough catapults (behind full cover) to maintain a rate of fire of 1/round, or 1/2 rounds.
Add a wick, and the oil goes up as it lands. It's a techish fireball. And it has a small radius.
Add a kite-tail, with a torch on it, or another catapult firing scattered torches, and instead of dropping bombs on the team, you're dropping problems. Which can be solved.
"A barrel smashes here. The oil starts to spread. The kite-tail torch lands...(dice) here..."
So they can run around neutralizing torches (but more could come), or getting out of the oil spread (but more could come) and single attacking, or taking full attack actions.
I think if I were the archer and some enemy tried this, I'd enjoy the puzzling the combat offered.
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I'm currently running the Shattered Star Adventure Path which, at least in the first two modules, is pretty much a dungeon crawl so it's hard to have weather effect him.
I'd like to reiterate that I'm not trying to remove the archer from the game, I'm just trying to balance things out.
I certainly don't want to target him to totally destroy his effectiveness as the game is all about having fun.
I'm really just after advice on how to better manage him in combat and have received a lot of great responses.
I am also running Shattered Star, and it continues that way in book 3, and in books 4 and 5 from what i have read so far (for the record i haven't fully read beyond book 3 because my players are still in Kaer Maga).
A Zen Archer ignores all cover penalties by taking Improved Precise Shot at level 6 as a bonus feat.
To defeat obscuring mist, step up, prone targets, and underwater penalties, the Zen Archer moves all the way up to their target and takes advantage of their level 3 bonus feat Point Blank Master which allows them to use their bow without provoking attacks of opportunity.
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I am also running Shattered Star, and it continues that way in book 3, and in books 4 and 5 from what i have read so far (for the record i haven't fully read beyond book 3 because my players are still in Kaer Maga).
I'm running it for 2 separate groups. The first just hit the Lady's Light and found the sarcophagus. What did they do? They by passed it. Didn't even open the lid. I couldn't believe it.
Make a dungeon that is a bunch (or virtual maze) of 10 by 10 rooms connected by doors. So they will have to spend move actions to open doors, and then hope the NPCs are in the room they think they're in.
Some doors will be trapped, some locked, some trapped and locked, and some fake, but still possibly trapped, locked, or trapped and locked.