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I was wondering if anyone else feels that the big bad mythic NPC have waaaay too low HP and even AC. See Mythic Realms for a bunch of them.
Any decent mythic character can throw 300+ damages in a round, and that's far from the "optimal" ones that can do twice that amount if not more.
But still, the whispering tyrant has...392 HP and 40 AC, really? Any mythic paladin will just smite his ass and one shot him.
He doesn't even have a real mythical path, I was expecting Archmage 10.
It feels to me that the damage output of PC increase exponentially but that the HP and defensive abilities of the monsters increase linearly, simply because they have to "follow the rules"
Honestly to be any kind of challenge those mythic badass encounter should have 1500+ HP and certainly better AC, what's the point if the player can hit them on everything but a 1 and one shot them?
So as far as I'm concerned screw following the rules, The whispering tyrant would have 2k HP and like 55 AC.
Also stop the following the Wealth rules for those NPCs, the whispering Tyrant having a +4 natural armor amulet is just funny, really he never had the time and resources to upgrade it?
Some other NPC break the wealth rule at least like Azani or that mummy guy.
So please Paizo, stop "Following the rules" or create some mythic monster HP bonus ability or whatever to justify them having very high HP, because otherwise the legendary whispering tyrant will last half a round.
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That's the beauty of table-top games. You can either make it or change it yourself!
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Don't have the stats handy, but yeah, that seems rather weak for a high-level NPC. That's about something level 10-12 Mythics should be dealing with. Of course, he has piles of spells and abilities and whatnot, so he's not just made of those two stats, but yeah... optimized Mythics will thrash him.
Still, it's more of a 'random build issue' than anything else. Even in previous editions of the game, there have been pre-constructed encounters that range from insanely difficult to ridiculously easy, often within the same adventure path. Few things are as disheartening as realizing the epic end boss is a two-pump chump. Go with LastExile0's idea and rebuild him. I think the main issue is that he's a Mythic Lich... which, according to the rules, prevents him from actually following a Mythic path, as the Mythic monster and Mythic path rules are stated to be incompatible. Still, if nothing else, they should have added the Mythic template on him that lets him function twice in a round.
As a DM, you can make these things as simple or as brutal as you like. Make a monster with templates and apply the Undead, then give him class levels, for instance. Nothing says he has to be a basic race anymore. Find the most effective combination to maximize his bulk (if that's what you want), or even use his class and creature abilities to their fullest in such a way as to make the fight more entertaining (multiple bulky Undead with Shield Other or the like and high Fast Healing stacked on him to redirect most of the damage away, forcing them to go after his "Hit Point" batteries first while he harasses them, for instance). Creative use of his abilities works, too. He should be in control of a metric ton of Undead as part of his ability list, which don't count against his CR if they fall under his maximum HD allowed. He should have had access to Simulacrum at some point, and be running with a trio or so of 'fakes' that still appear real to most scrying that he can swap out with mid-fight. I see "Maze" on his spell list--note that if he isn't anchored, he can cast it on HIMSELF and delay his return time as much as he desires. Parties who haven't experienced this tactic may be in for a shock if he Quickens it and fires it off after a massive AoE when at low health, thinking he's just exploded only to find him return a minute later at full health as they are picking around the room.
This is actually something I'm curious about. I'm probably over-looking the obvious, but where do all his bonus hit points come from? I'm coming up 60 short somehow (I'll not post my probably erroneous math to avoid confusing people).
Can Mythic characters completely destroy the Whispering Tyrant without finding the phylactery?
Can Mythic characters completely destroy the Whispering Tyrant without finding the phylactery?
Yes, but I think he'll get better (because of the phylactery).
If you mean, "Can a mythic character permanently destroy Tar-Baphon without first destroying the phylactery?"*, then no, they can't, because of the nature of a lich and phylactery.
* I'm really, really not trying to be pedantic - I suspect this is what you meant (and that's how I took it), but to be inclusive and safe, I also answered the other potential question, just to cover my bases. :)
Also: no one? Really?
20 wizard hit dice [d6] (72 or 120 if maximumized) + 10 mythic ranks (+60) plus 20*CHA modifier [9] (180) + mythic toughness (20*2=40)?
That's 72+60+180+40=352 or 120+60+180+40=400.
Either way, I'm clearly off somewhere.
(Also, just to mention, the reason Mythic creatures don't necessarily have more hit points is probably because the game it built around less optimized characters rather than more optimized characters. But that's just a guess.)
Mythic Lich and Mythic Vampire templates are kind of non-ideal, because they don't offer customization. That's one issue, if the base creature doesn't have a ton of hit points. The lich also has a self-heal, which is nice if they can survive a round or two. If I were to run the encounter as written, I think the thing to do would be to shut down the damage dealers. Once they puzzle past his spells and defenses, they win.
Can Mythic characters permanently destroy the Whispering Tyrant without finding the phylactery?I would say no. The only way to fully get rid of a lich (any lich) is described as getting (and destroying) the lich's phylactery. Tar-Baphon's phylactery is an artifact, meaning it has one specific method of destruction (barring a disjunction effect, of course) and may well be hidden away by Urgathoa.
It's like any lich... except much harder.
Thank you for the response, Alleran. I don't own Mythic Realms so I can't be sure there was something written regarding if mythic characters can bypass the standard ruling for the mythic lich or not; such as an item they can gain or a mythic tier ability, for example.
The quickest mythic-method of dealing out the exponentially increased damage is Mythic Vital Strike, owing to the way that the feat was written/designed.
Yeah Mythic Vital Strike is pretty intense, but even besides that, Physical damage based characters (Melee or ranged) get very high real quick.
Rogue can easily move and full attack with all their attack being sneak attack, they now add their dext to damage with mythic weapon finesse and can crit their sneak attack damage x2.
Barbarian, well, are barbarians, again they can full attack easily every round and with the bonus in strength and power attack, can go in the +70 damage (x3 on a crit on 15-20) without much effort.
Paladin, and smite evil, go easily into the weapon damage + 70ish also.
Archers in general are even more powerful than before.
All those classes can throw 5+ attack per round, all of them or almost being their full BAB with the "Precision" path ability.
For arcane casters, Disintegrate is now king, with its mythic version and the Channel Power path ability.
So yeah, not sure how a 390HP monsters can survive more than half a round against a full party of players who can dish that amount or close to it by themselves every round.
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The quickest mythic-method of dealing out the exponentially increased damage is Mythic Vital Strike, owing to the way that the feat was written/designed.Yeah Mythic Vital Strike is pretty intense, but even besides that, Physical damage based characters (Melee or ranged) get very high real quick.
Rogue can easily move and full attack with all their attack being sneak attack, they now add their dext to damage with mythic weapon finesse and can crit their sneak attack damage x2.
Barbarian, well, are barbarians, again they can full attack easily every round and with the bonus in strength and power attack, can go in the +70 damage (x3 on a crit on 15-20) without much effort.
Paladin, and smite evil, go easily into the weapon damage + 70ish also.
Archers in general are even more powerful than before.
All those classes can throw 5+ attack per round, all of them or almost being their full BAB with the "Precision" path ability.
For arcane casters, Disintegrate is now king, with its mythic version and the Channel Power path ability.
So yeah, not sure how a 390HP monsters can survive more than half a round against a full party of players who can dish that amount or close to it by themselves every round.
By not even bothering to show up in person, and sending 5k hp in undead against them.
By not even bothering to show up in person, and sending 5k hp in undead against them.
That's not really a solution though :D obviously if a party of Mythic adventurers gets into Gallowspire for example they are here to fight the Whispering Tyrant and they will find him.
(Also, just to mention, the reason Mythic creatures don't necessarily have more hit points is probably because the game it built around less optimized characters rather than more optimized characters. But that's just a guess.)
That's the thing, you don't need "optimized" characters to reach those numbers.
Unless you consider a barbarian that puts his stats points in strength, and use power attack an "optimized" character?
Or a Rogue that puts his point in dext and use weapon finesse/mythic weapon finesse.
If you look at the pre-generated characters, they're often about as un-optimized as you can get. They are made to be story-characters instead of specialists.
I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree. But I think the reasons things were built as they were probably have to do with that I noted above. Paizo just doesn't build their stuff with that kind of power in mind (unless it's Star Spawn of Cthulu).
Also, I'm really glad someone in the thread actually responded to one of my posts. I was beginning to get paranoid that I was invisible here, or something. :)
(Though a lot of people probably wish my posts were, as they wouldn't have to wade through walls of text.)
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By not even bothering to show up in person, and sending 5k hp in undead against them.That's not really a solution though :D obviously if a party of Mythic adventurers gets into Gallowspire for example they are here to fight the Whispering Tyrant and they will find him.
Where is he?
I looked at Gallowspire...he's not actually there, from all I know.
This is actually something I'm curious about. I'm probably over-looking the obvious, but where do all his bonus hit points come from? I'm coming up 60 short somehow (I'll not post my probably erroneous math to avoid confusing people).
If he is MR 6, then that is 60 hp. All mythic creatures get 10hp per rank. It took me awhile to catch that in statted monsters too.
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The whispering tyrant will never...ever get into a rocket tag battle with pc. This isn't final fantasy. The final boss just doesn't stand there and fight the pcs. He is surrounded by liches, vampires, brutes, assassins etc...He basically has no limit to the number of undead HD that he can control. On top of it, he is a level 20 mythic caster with ARTIFACTS. Like they even say in his entry, he made his own spells, you can literally do whatever you want for this encounter.
On top of it, the gallowspire is probably one of the worst place to fight him, the constant negative energy heal him every round.
This is actually something I'm curious about. I'm probably over-looking the obvious, but where do all his bonus hit points come from? I'm coming up 60 short somehow (I'll not post my probably erroneous math to avoid confusing people).If he is MR 6, then that is 60 hp. All mythic creatures get 10hp per rank. It took me awhile to catch that in statted monsters too.
Sorry, yeah, I was off on how much I was off. (It comes from refusing to post my math and being distracted by a toddler climbing up on a table behind you and jumping on your head. Repeatedly.)
My actual math already includes that:
20 wizard hit dice [d6] (72 or 120 if maximized)
10 mythic ranks (+60)
20*CHA modifier [9] (180)
mythic toughness (20*2=40)
That's 72+60+180+40=352 or 120+60+180+40=400.
So I'm coming up 40 points short or 8 points over, if we presume maximized hit points compared to his indicated 392.
I got 72 from:
6 (1st level) plus [3.5]*19 -> 72.5 (or 72, as it doesn't round up)
<3.5 is the average hit points on a d6>
One person suggested on another thread that maybe they somehow added mythic toughness a second time. That... actually seems quite possible, but I don't have time to go through his stats at the moment. Could anyone confirm or deny this?
Sometime they don't follow the classic npc example for Hp depending if it is thematic. Look at the worldwound forget which demon lord but one of them has 666 hp ...simply because it is the rule of cool.
... but what's cool about 392? I mean, it's just a random number.
Heck, I'd have rather them done with the "DUDE, HE'S GOT MAX HP" than just an extra 40-from-nowhere.
That said, I'd tend to agree that he's a master at sending troops after you... but he certainly does wade into battle as well.
He did so (personal combat, even!) with Aroden, Arazni, and that general guy who's name I've forgotten. Given that it only worked out well 1/3 of the times, I dunno that he'd be too quick to do it again, but still, pretty in-character for him to go toe-to-toe with someone who calls him out.
I looked at Gallowspire...he's not actually there, from all I know.
He is there, "Dungeons of Golarion" clearly state where he is, deep inside the dungeon, in the last room after the "fake" whispering tyrant he setup as a decoy.
I looked at Gallowspire...he's not actually there, from all I know.He is there, "Dungeons of Golarion" clearly state where he is, deep inside the dungeon, in the last room after the "fake" whispering tyrant he setup as a decoy.
Sorry, I Is this real, or a joke based on the Tomb of Horrors?
...*looks at copy of Dungeons of Golarion*
But the crusaders knew that a lich could not be so easily defeated—they knew Tar-Baphon had but retreated to his phylactery, somewhere deep within Gallowspire. But their triumph had shattered the last remnants of the Whispering Tyrant’s army, and while the lich recovered deep below, the crusaders set to work above, sealing his dungeons with powerful magic and transforming his throne into his tomb.
and
The deeper dungeons of Gallowspire are dark and grim, their walls and ceilings made of a dull gray stone veined with black metal. Bones litter the floor, in some cases piled so high as to make the floor difficult to traverse. The Whispering Tyrant rules supreme here, and his
power has infused the place, giving it a number of unique characteristics. These qualities begin beyond the Great Seal and are present throughout the rest of the dungeon
and, importantly,
After recovering from the destruction of his body, the Whispering Tyrant found himself locked inside his own dungeons, unable to escape through his powerful magic. Early in his imprisonment, after he exhausted attempts to use planar travel or teleportation to leave his tomb, Tar-Baphon resorted to physical methods and tried to tunnel his way to freedom. The magic placed over the dungeon blocked even these methods, however. His frustration eventually got the better of his reasoning, as the current state of this dungeon level testifies. In his wrath, the lich very nearly tore this level of the dungeon apart, leaving it in ruins.
and
Of special note, this level is the home of a false tyrant, a powerful simulacrum of the Whispering Tyrant meant to vex foes and test their mettle. Sitting on a gilded throne piled high with treasure, this duplicate lich-king is more than willing to give his unlife to protect the ruse—if slain, his body does not revert to ice and snow (as is the case of most simulacrums) but instead explodes into a storm of powerful vampiric spirits.
and, finally, and most importantly
This final level of the dungeon is the resting place of Tar-Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant. This is where the lich holds court, waiting for the day when he will once again be free to take on the world above, spreading across the world the gift of unlife. Here he plans and schemes, uses magic to spy on the surface and send vague dreams and instructions to his remaining followers there. He knows that those of his minions still active in the world lack the power to free him at this time, but he hopes to continue manipulating events as best he can to orchestrate his eventual release. The magic of the prison prevents him from leaving and directly communicating with his minions, but there is still much he can inf luence them from afar. Those reaching this level of the dungeon must deal with the lich’s personal guards and attendants, not to mention the power and might of the most powerful lich the world of Golarion has ever seen. Tar-Baphon’s exact level is left for you to
customize for your own campaign, but at the very least he has the abilities of a 20th-level necromancer.
(Note, Dungeons of Golarion was published before mythic stuff, and says,
Several of the dungeon levels found below Gallowspire contain threats beyond those normally presented in Pathfinder products. Since the exact rules for how to build and run encounters of this magnitude have yet to be solidified for the Pathfinder RPG, the denizens of levels 9 through 12 are presented in even relatively vague terms, so that if you run games using variant rules for such ultra-high-level play, you can develop the encounters and dangers here to match your needs more easily.
... which is why they recommend the customization.)
Huh. Looks like it was real! I wonder if it's a reference, then, an homage as it were?
On a related note, what happens to a mythic creature made into a simulacra? I presume the get half their rank/tier as appropriate for their new hit dice, but what if they had less than half their hit dice in ranks? Has this been discussed rules-wise?
I think the main issue is that he's a Mythic Lich... which, according to the rules, prevents him from actually following a Mythic path, as the Mythic monster and Mythic path rules are stated to be incompatible.
While this is true, one can simply make him a normal lich and give him mythic paths, like Arazni (Human Lich Wizard 20 Marshal 8)
His low Hp is due to him being a caster, though he'll have a full suite of spells and mythic spells as well as minions that will keep him competitive against the PCs. That said, having half the HP as normal for a CR 26 is... unusual. Even as a caster, his HP shouldn't be THAT low.