Ok? If slumber is "oh dear god broken" then I can only imagine what you would think of my Enchantment Focused mage. I could push out Dominate, CHarm, and hold spells with DCs that put Slumber to shame. And the best part is? Dominate, charm, and hold all last longer and much more versatile. Oh! And with a few metamagics, the only things I could affect would be constructs (who are generally immune to magic), which is more than what can be said with the slumber hex. Oh and my heavy Enchantment focus also gave me even better DC for spells like Unadulterated Loathing. If you can cast dominate on something with strong will and have a decent chance of success, then you can easily cast it on something upwards of +8 levels with poor will and probably still win...You also cant apply Spell Perfection to Hexes.
Is your "mage" a witch? All the spells you mentioned are on the witches spell list, and I'm guessing the feats are accessible as well. So a witch could have all the same stuff as your mage, but not need most of it because the witch can just try the hex and save her highest level spells for other options. If your mage is not a witch, then you are missing out on such nastiness as misfortune, cackle, etc.
If witches were not full casters, then you would have a good point, but they are. They get all the best toys, and an insta-win button as well.
Since it keeps being brought up, I have to say again: These are not corner cases and you don't need any specialized builds to beat encounters above your APL+3. You need the slumber hex, a decent prime stat, and a sidekick with a simple weapon and 14 str, and you can win encounters far more often then any other common build. If you want to min/max it you can do that as well, but you sure don't need to.
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Actually, I did. Quickened telekinesis. Sorry, Charlie. That's assuming, of course, that the balor doesn't just stand halfway between the witch and the other balor, and use Cleave to kill the witch with its whip while attacking the other balor. Or simply move behind the witch, and then kill them. Or teleport away. Or Bull Rush the witch into a pack of dretches. Whatever. I'm a balor, I know I can kill some crazy little humanoid in one hit.
I see you haven't touched the little problem of your balor expending his action killing mooks instead of trying to kill the other balor. Great way to win a Balor vs Balor fight. :-)Beside the witch can wait till the balor move near him. Or be one of 30 different mooks pushed into the fray by stronger mooks. How will the balor know what mook he need to kill?
Sorry, Bush. Don't work.
Let's see your reply:- telekinesis, maybe it will kill the witch, but it will do nothing to the other Balor unless there are a lot of cold iron & good weapons dropped around the battlefield. Throwing 15 large greatsword doing 3d6 damage each can kill a 1st level human or a larva (but it isn't guaranteed unless you fire several swords at him), but will do very few hp of damage against a balor with DR/15 good & cold iron.
So you have used one of your 3 quickened telekinesis available today to kill maybe 7 mooks out of 30.
What was the witch? That larva? or the quasit that survived and is recovering thanks to fast healing? None of them and he/she/it is in the second wave?
- cleave: standard action so 1 attack against the other balor instead of 7 and "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach." Some reason why the mook would be adjacent to the other balor?
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The example I gave was a battlefield - thousands upon thousands of mooks all slugging it out on the ground whilst the big guys tussle it out on top.
So, an environment where a 1st level witch would be annihilated almost instantly. Problem solved.
Although it's against my better judgement, let's say by judicious use of plot armor the first level witch survives long enough to get within 30 feet of two all out fighting balors, and is not somehow killed in the crossfire and AoE effects no doubt going off. Said witch slumber hexes a balor, and the stars align to get that 1 on the save. The other balor would be unlikely to go for a CdG, because they would be exposed to far too many AoO from the thousands of combatants around them. They might take the chance to heal or buff. They might get in one free hit. Either way, not a big deal. Let's be honest though, that witch died in the first round of that battle, long before seeing the balors meet. Crowd battles mean AoE effects, and a first level witch wouldn't have had a chance.
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Why are Balors caring about witch mooks? Its only a 5% chance, and its much more likely the other balor will kill them first.
No it isnt.
Two Balors in combat should be evenly matched. One can imagine a combat between them lasting quite some time. However, a 1st level Witch has a 5% chance of settling the combat between them.
Which IMVHO is very odd.
The example I gave was a battlefield - thousands upon thousands of mooks all slugging it out on the ground whilst the big guys tussle it out on top.So, an environment where a 1st level witch would be annihilated almost instantly. Problem solved.
No it isn't. The environment will be inimical to the survival of that witch and all the other witches and all the other low-level mooks on that battle plain (plane?), but that doesn't mean that thousands of mook footsoldiers will all die in 1 round.
Although it's against my better judgement, let's say by judicious use of plot armor the first level witch survives long enough to get within 30 feet of two all out fighting balors, and is not somehow killed in the crossfire and AoE effects no doubt going off.
Where you are going wrong in your analysis is in thinking of *the* first level witch as if there's only one of them on the battlefield. If this turns out to be a good tactic, there'll be dozens in and around all the other classes which those hellish footsoldiers might choose to take. It's not the case of *the* first level witch having to do anything, at some point or another *a* first level witch is very likely to find itself in the right position to do this *unless* the Balors take action to prevent it.
Said witch slumber hexes a balor, and the stars align to get that 1 on the save. The other balor would be unlikely to go for a CdG, because they would be exposed to far too many AoO from the thousands of combatants around them. They might take the chance to heal or buff. They might get in one free hit. Either way, not a big deal.
Nothing on that battle field has a better than 1 in 20 chance of hitting the Balor and it will have to crit to get through its DR. The Balor has nothing to fear from mooks apart from Slumber Hex.
Let's be honest though, that witch died in the first round of that battle, long before seeing the balors meet. Crowd battles mean AoE effects, and a first level witch wouldn't have had a chance.
It's not a case of *that* witch, or *this* witch. You're playing a numbers game here, and there's plenty of those to guarantee that some witch or another will get within range time and again during the course of the battle.
Richard
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Slumber Hex won't unduly change the game so long as PFS still allows the GM to fudge die rolls per the Gamemastering rules chapter in the Core Rulebook.
We all know that cheating is bad. But sometimes, as a GM, you might find yourself in a situation where cheating might improve the game."
*clatter*
*ignores die*"Oh, look at that. He made his save."
It shouldn't be done all the time obviously.. but if you feel that the Slumber Hex is unduly influencing the game experience (and you're the GM), you're the one who's opinion matters most about whether fudging a savings roll is "improving the game"
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No it isnt.
Two Balors in combat should be evenly matched. One can imagine a combat between them lasting quite some time. However, a 1st level Witch has a 5% chance of settling the combat between them.
Which IMVHO is very odd.
While odd, the other balor has a better chance at ending the fight. Even if only 2 attacks hit, each attack has a 5% death effect[vorpal], and does damage that will slowly chip the balor down. The witch has one, maybe two chances to inflict an SOS that has a 5% chance of falling asleep for a single round. Its nothing compared to what a balor can do.
Specious argument.
Alright, Diego, do you think you can, for once in our history of conversation, avoid insulting me and/or calling me a liar? I'd really appreciate it. Also, you're using the wrong word. It's not "specious" it's merely, "an argument I don't like, and thus will question your integrity." though I don't know if they have a word for that.
There isn't only 1 inhabited planet in all the galaxy or the other galaxies. The balors (or whatever) don't have the leisure and time to annihilate every caster on every planet of every system of the universe, like we don't have the methods to annihilate every mite in our houses. At most they (and we) can keep them in check, eliminating those that cause problems. And to do that they need to use as little resources as possible, as they have enemies and competitors that would benefit for that distraction and the resources spent killing the spellcasters.
Sure, yes, but that's the point: there's also a lot - and I mean a lot - of devils and demons and so on. What setting are you using? Golarion? If so, they're not infinite, true, but that doesn't mean that they can't do this - it simply means resources. If you're using most other popular published settings (in the d20 set up), they have effectively infinite resources. So... you know, no real reason they shouldn't.
All that aside, you're ignoring the point: if one ability is already so "game changing" (which it is), and the world isn't already over-reacting, then there's really no reason a much more minor effect wouldn't be pre-adapted for.
Your idea that devil, demons and genies would make a united front is really ludicrous.
Yes. because nothing like that, ever happens.
(I mean, c'mon, Diego: the last guy is a duke of hell with the title "friend of demons" and there's a spoiler in Legacy of Fire about something similar.)
For the aboleth thing, read this thread.
Read it, and it... makes no difference whatsoever. I mean, "Oh, hey, there are more powerful creatures in that chain and they can gain class levels." is already really well covered for devils, too. Or is it the addition of templates? 'Cause, you know... you've still got that for devils. To be clear, I'm not worried about Aboleths - I like them and find them reasonable villains. But they start out as a CR 7, and there's no reason not to extrapolate from there with a CR 10 and what they are capable of.
Simulacron has his problems, but it is way outside the intent of this discussion.
No, it's pretty much the same thing. A campaign-changing ability that, if everyone who had the ability to acquire it had it (and used it to its full potential), there would be precious little reason to adventure, ever.
Your son: let's make a realistic example. You have a gun? You normally leave it around loaded in a location where your son can pick it up? Or you put it away in a safe place?
Your son can potentially kill or wound you with a gun, so people generally take precautions to avoid that and still we have gun related wounding and killing. The big monsters susceptible to sleep are in the same position. They will have to take precautions, including not attacking villages as singletons and still some of them will die to slumber.
First, this example is, to borrow your own word, "specious" (at least as much as mine is) as I don't have a gun, ergo, he'll never acquire it from me, and, if he does acquire one, there'd have to be a lot - a lot of factors to go wrong for that to happen.
Second, it's not my son killing me with a gun - it's me killing a trained and fully equipped military special ops with a low-powered hand gun that I got from... somewhere. Someone, let's call them, "a patron" gave it to me. And then I somehow ended up in a pitched battle of military special ops somewhere. Good tactics, or stupid? You decide!
Sure, I could kill the guy. There are holes in the armor they where, that I could take advantage of, presuming I shot straight or cut straight, got the jump on him, and I wasn't hit with a stray bullet (or fireball) as they were busy destroying everything with advanced weaponry.
Now, if you're talking about the giant example, it's far more like a robber who comes at me and my family with a hand gun while I've got a knife. I could kill the guy, but there are way, way more things that are likely to go wrong for me than for that guy. Until after he leaves, of course, at which point those who are well equipped to handle it (the police) go after him. Which is what happens with giants and adventurers.
Now, if a low-grade hill giant is doing nothing but kicking over huts and squashing random people, and otherwise acting like a moron, then, yeah, I'm not surprised a witch and brother could get the drop on him.
If, on the other hand, a giant "terrorizing" a village by either quick raids on the outskirts or demanding tribute "or else", it's exceedingly unlikely that anyone is going to be able to do anything unless they're adventurers.
Heck, if the vague possibility that there is a witch that happens to have the sleep hex terrifies a giant in a town with a population of 700, the idea of all those commoners with light crossbows must give him night terrors to the point of heart attacks.
Colour Spray and Grease (and Glitterdust) have destroyed more encounters encounters than Slumber ever will.
A single colour spray can wreck a bunch of NPC's in a hit, Slumber has nothing like that sort of economy.
What are these other offensive / defensive tactics that the village is going to have at its disposal and, in particular, how do they compare with the relatively simple expedient of having a 1st level slumber-hexing witch?
If you imagine your village having a defense "budget" which lets you recruit, say, one 2nd level PC-classed NPC or two 1st level PC-classed NPCs or twice that amount of NPC-classed NPCs what would you go for?
Location, fortifications, and keeping the other local inhabitants (whether that be giants, dragons, or anything else) from noticing or caring about them. Finding a place that the potential lone wanderers can't and/or won't go is going to be the primary defense. Barring that possibility, creating a space where they can accomplish that same thing is going to be the number 1 priority. Once they have, generally being invisible to the other local inhabitants is the next biggest concern. Even a coven of witches is going to be of little value if even only a handful of giants decide to eradicate the hornet's nest. Thus, even if they have that tactic available to them, they aren't going to use it on every single giant that happens to pass by the outer fields; they will be far more likely to hold it in reserve for any attempts to breach the village core itself, something that if the other defenses were done right, should be a fairly rare occurrence.
People of any kind or any kind of offensive tactic would not be the primary defense. People are only as effective when they are in the right place at the right time, and are expensive to replace if they are lost, whether they are a witch or a simple spear wielding warrior, and going offensive without really good cause simply gives the other locals cause to crush them before they can have any real impact as a whole.
If they had a budget like that, I would go one adept/healer type (could be a witch or druid with a similar focus, but wouldn't have to be), one really good ranger that could lead the warriors/hunters, and several warriors/hunters who could gather food & resources, fend off smaller critters, and provide a warning system that would allow the villagers to pull in their livestock from the outer fields should they see anything bigger approach. I would not have any of them be the primary deterrent to keep anything bigger away; terrain, fortifications, natural or manmade, apathy on the part of those creatures, and awareness on the part of the villagers would be more effective and cheaper in the long run to deal with those threats. People would be a necessary backup defense against a determined assault, but people of any kind should not be the primary tactic against the lone wandering creature. Flesh and blood is expensive to replace and train. Not to mention killing other creatures just draws in unwanted attention from everything else in the area, whether it be other local giants or the inevitable carrion feeders.
w.r.t. the Balor example - I disagree. I think wars are fought in the main by 1st and 2nd level minions with some higher level dudes slugging it among them. That 1st level witch isn't going to *choose* to be next to a Balor any more than, say, in LOTR any one of those humans and elves in Gladden Fields would have *chosen* to be next to a wyvern, troll or oliphaunt. The battle comes to you whether you like it or not.
At which point, the witch wouldn't be focused on the Balor, nor would the warrior that would have to be the second part of the tactic. They might take a shot at one of the Balors if they got exactly the right opportunity, but they would have their own enemies to deal with, and a host of reasons to get out of the way rather than stick around and try to take down the Balor. Most people on the field aren't Legolas or Gimli, looking for the biggest fish on the field to kill; they are just trying to survive, and are perfectly content to not engage the bigger stuff, but rather get out of the way and allow the big folks on their side deal with the big folks on the other side. In the end, it's not impossible, by any means, but at the same time, it's not something you could plan for, nor would it be something that the Balors would worry about. Countless kings in real life died in battle from common attacks, but that didn't stop future kings from focusing on their noble foes, and ignoring the common rabble surrounding them.
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Is the Slumber hex uniquely game changing?
No.
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Where you are going wrong in your analysis is in thinking of *the* first level witch as if there's only one of them on the battlefield. If this turns out to be a good tactic, there'll be dozens in and around all the other classes which those hellish footsoldiers might choose to take. It's not the case of *the* first level witch having to do anything, at some point or another *a* first level witch is very likely to find itself in the right position to do this *unless* the Balors take action to prevent it.
Turtles all the way down, is it?
Any tactic which requires entire armies of first level witches, all built identically, to have even a sliver of a chance at success is a non issue. If Bill the Balor fields 1000 level one witches, and Benny the Balor fields 1000 Dretch, sure, Benny might fall to the dreaded slumber hex. Then Bob the Balor would kill Bill after equipping an item that prevents sleep. Meanwhile Bronson the Balor was never in danger, because he fields an army of demons that includes everything up through Maralith, and his army would annihilate 1000 level one characters while Bronson watched in amusement. How is Bronson safe from the awful hex? He flies.
The idea that a Balor would field a hundred, or even dozens, or level one characters on the off chance that one might survive long enough to get in one lucky hex is such a far fetched one that it merits no influence on scenario writing.
Has the bar been set so low that now NPCs are allowed access to any material in the books? The Eldritch powers of my worlds (which the witch must commune with as their patron), Golarion or otherwise, choose to bestow their gifts at whim and will. Those sad maggots may not see a slumber hex witch in generations. PCs are unique that they can choose their mechanics are they not? Every NPC.could have straight.18s but may only be heading to the local garrison if they are not chosen by a God, cannot find their voice, summon the arcane or find that shifty fox or pig who is a conduit to the by and by.
Balors dont summon hordes of witches because demons are cheap, reliable and most likely dont answer to mysterious other powers.* Insert narrative explanation here*.Players are unique, their ability to pick and plan are unique. Or did I miss something?
Every power, every scenario, opens potential exploits. This thread reminds me of the great "create water" debate of oh...2011 or so. "But there would never be desert", etc. etc. etc.
The two Balors are fighting in the midst of hundreds of Dretches or whatever.
Neither Balor knows where there might be a 1st level witch or two, therefore neither Balor can take *any* action against *any* witch. The only thing they could do is stop fighting each other and start indulging in a bit of indiscriminate mook-slaughter. The problem is that as soon as one takes his eye of the Ball-or the other one presses his advantage.
Oh, well, in that case, no one can take a CDG in that scenario, because they will instantly die from about eight AoOs before they even complete the action. Also, the witch is already dead from indiscriminate fireballs. Except that they never even got that close, because a 1st level witch specialized in slumber hex probably doesn't have a good Acrobatics skill.
Meanwhile, in the one alternate universe out of a million where this actually succeeds, the witch contributes to the death of a single balor and then abruptly dies from death throes.
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Hey, as long as a witch can get a surprise round against a balor with +38 Perception and truesight, and doesn't mind 1:20 odds of success and definitely dying after, it's a very good tactic.
...and said 1st level witch had to move within 30' of the Balor, and is relying on not only getting that close, but waiting until the SECOND round so they can get the cackle in as well.
Stacks likely.
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Why are Balors caring about witch mooks? Its only a 5% chance, and its much more likely the other balor will kill them first.
If the other Balor land 7 vorpal attacks every round, yes, it is way more probable that the Balor caring about moooks and spending action to eliminate them will be killed.
AFAIK a vorpal weapon don't need to do any hp of damage to behead a creature so a combat between Balors full attacking each other will last very few rounds.
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Specious argument.Alright, Diego, do you think you can, for once in our history of conversation, avoid insulting me and/or calling me a liar? I'd really appreciate it. Also, you're using the wrong word. It's not "specious" it's merely, "an argument I don't like, and thus will question your integrity." though I don't know if they have a word for that.
specious
[spee-shuhs]adjective
1.
apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.
It is not offensive, it define exactly your post. You used an argument that seem valid but crumble instantly when analyzed.
There isn't only 1 inhabited planet in all the galaxy or the other galaxies. The balors (or whatever) don't have the leisure and time to annihilate every caster on every planet of every system of the universe, like we don't have the methods to annihilate every mite in our houses. At most they (and we) can keep them in check, eliminating those that cause problems. And to do that they need to use as little resources as possible, as they have enemies and competitors that would benefit for that distraction and the resources spent killing the spellcasters.Sure, yes, but that's the point: there's also a lot - and I mean a lot - of devils and demons and so on. What setting are you using? Golarion? If so, they're not infinite, true, but that doesn't mean that they can't do this - it simply means resources. If you're using most other popular published settings (in the d20 set up), they have effectively infinite resources. So... you know, no real reason they shouldn't.
All that aside, you're ignoring the point: if one ability is already so "game changing" (which it is), and the world isn't already over-reacting, then there's really no reason a much more minor effect wouldn't be pre-adapted for.
So the base of your reasoning is "One side has infinite resources, so it can do anything and everything"?
But one side hasn't infinite resources in any setting. The abyss can be infinite, but no side control all of them. Every single individual control a limited (even if very large in some instance) amount of resources and need to use part of those resources to protect himself and his organization from competitors. A demon lord spending a large part of its resources hunting mortal spellcasters will end being killed or removed from power by competitors.
Your idea that devil, demons and genies would make a united front is really ludicrous.Yes. because nothing like that, ever happens.
(I mean, c'mon, Diego: the last guy is a duke of hell with the title "friend of demons" and there's a spoiler in Legacy of Fire about something similar.)
Your post was about a united front of all wish granting creature, lasting forever, not a temporary alliance to take down some specific enemy or a few of those creatures allying with a few other creatures from a different subset. Two very different things.
One can be compared to the Allied nations from WWII, with URSS, USA Comunist and Nationalist China on the same side (at least formally for the last two), the other to being part of the NATO.Even during WWII nation on the same side were scheming and spying against each other, and in some case even actively fighting (afore mentioned Communist ans nationalist China). Even within the NATO there has been and there is spying and active sabotage to get economical and political advantage.
The "danger" of simulacrum using spellcaster isn't large enough to keep your united front stable for more than a few minutes.
Simulacron has his problems, but it is way outside the intent of this discussion.No, it's pretty much the same thing. A campaign-changing ability that, if everyone who had the ability to acquire it had it (and used it to its full potential), there would be precious little reason to adventure, ever.
Simulacron isn't campaign changing for the small village, there is a difference between "campaign changing for PC" and "campaign changing for the world". This discussion is mostly about the latter.
Your son: let's make a realistic example. You have a gun? You normally leave it around loaded in a location where your son can pick it up? Or you put it away in a safe place?Your son can potentially kill or wound you with a gun, so people generally take precautions to avoid that and still we have gun related wounding and killing. The big monsters susceptible to sleep are in the same position. They will have to take precautions, including not attacking villages as singletons and still some of them will die to slumber.
First, this example is, to borrow your own word, "specious" (at least as much as mine is) as I don't have a gun, ergo, he'll never acquire it from me, and, if he does acquire one, there'd have to be a lot - a lot of factors to go wrong for that to happen.
Second, it's not my son killing me with a gun - it's me killing a trained and fully equipped military special ops with a low-powered hand gun that I got from... somewhere. Someone, let's call them, "a patron" gave it to me. And then I somehow ended up in a pitched battle of military special ops somewhere. Good tactics, or stupid? You decide!
Sure, I could kill the guy. There are holes in the armor they where, that I could take advantage of, presuming I shot straight or cut straight, got the jump on him, and I wasn't hit with a stray bullet (or fireball) as they were busy destroying everything with advanced weaponry.
Now, if you're talking about the giant example, it's far more like a robber who comes at me and my family with a hand gun while I've got a knife. I could kill the guy, but there are way, way more things that are likely to go wrong for me than for that guy. Until after he leaves, of course, at which point those who are well equipped to handle it (the police) go after him. Which is what happens with giants and adventurers.
Now, if a low-grade hill giant is doing nothing but kicking over huts and squashing random people, and otherwise acting like a moron, then, yeah, I'm not surprised a witch and brother could get the drop on him.
If, on the other hand, a giant "terrorizing" a village by either quick raids on the outskirts or demanding tribute "or else", it's exceedingly unlikely that anyone is going to be able to do anything unless they're adventurers.
Heck, if the vague possibility that there is a witch that happens to have the sleep hex terrifies a giant in a town with a population of 700, the idea of all those commoners with light crossbows must give him night terrors to the point of heart attacks.
Military use of children. Children with firearms routinely kill trained combatants.
Why the giant terrorizing a thorp with at most 20 people in it now has moved to attacking a town with 700 people in it? A small town (201-2000 inhabitants) has access to 4th level spells and probably several 7th level NPC with character classes. A single dragon could have problem trying to terrorize it, a single giant has no chance at all.
And yes, if you read their description, hill giants fear raiding towns.
"They are, as a whole, incredibly selfish creatures and rarely engage in battles they don't automatically know they'll win."
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Colour Spray and Grease (and Glitterdust) have destroyed more encounters encounters than Slumber ever will.
A single colour spray can wreck a bunch of NPC's in a hit, Slumber has nothing like that sort of economy.
The argument (or at least one of the arguments) isn't player character group VS monsters, it is environment/campaign world VS monster ecology.
Remember, cleave require the targets to be adjacent, not within reach of the giant. there is any reason for the characters to stay in adjacent squares?
If they are not adjacent that is fine. Rocks still work. It is just a matter of how they die.
Some reason for the witch (male or female) to be recognizable from the other villagers using farm instruments as weapons? For the villagers to wait for the giant in a open square to be squashed by throw rocks?
Why you should set up the villagers to fail against the giant?
Sure, the villagers will be squashed if the did go out in a giant hunt, but a single giant would risk his life every time he try to terrorize and blackmail a village.
I did no more setting up than the OP did. Adventures also tend to have gear that nonadventures do not so it is not hard to tell commoners from those that fight.
You can assume they dont have geat, but that is not the standard.
So by the standard they are easy to point out, and easy to kill. Most commoner will also be running in fear. The people not running are either adventures or very rare commoners. Guess where I am putting my money?
Antagonize is the base feat. Skill focus is the extra feat. It is still not even close to archery though which was the example you used. A better comparison is power attack and furious focus which is the "helper feat" much like skill focus is.
I only started the bard at a 16, not an 18 so he can still get a 14 in strength. I intentionally did not use the race to boost charisma to show how good it was with only 2 feats and not maxing charisma. The bard would have gotten the headband of charisma anyway so it is like that was made just for intimidate. That is more for the spells. The other social spells just benefit from it.
those may be investments a bard would take anyway
and even if intimidate isn't the primary purpose
you still invested a lot of resources into intimidate
even if intimidate isn't your sole niche, and even if you had lotsa skill points to spend
take a barbarian, fighter or ranger, where the investment is more sizeable
a bard is an example of a case where the investment is minimal because the class would already do it.
It still is not archery no matter how you try to twist, and yes archery is done well by bards.
So you are saying you want the very powerful monsters to be able to do suboptimal(almost foolish) actions and still be able to come out on top?No I'm not.
I want you to tell me whether you would consider George, Bill and Ben's behaviour realistic or not.
(incidentally, I didn't think cackle had anything to do with slumber)
Richard
If cackle is not taken that giant wakes up in round. If you take cackle with the feat that giant stays sleep until he can be picked off. That means the fight does not have to be adjacenet when the slumber hex takes affect.
Giants are social creatures just like humans and are likely to attack as a group. While giants can take on most humans they also know that enough arrows will kill them so a either stealth or a blitz type attack will be used, and they dont have to be geniuses to figure that out.
we should stop all this theory crafting and thinking of corner case scenarios that would never happen in a real gameLike I keep saying (over and over and over) this isn't about "real games" it's about setting up the background within which "real games" take place.
I know the thread's getting a bit long and people can't be bothered reading through it all but I did write something earlier about some gamers confronted with a colossal red dragon in a cave just kill it and move on whilst others start asking how it got there. I wont repeat that whole post here.
In answer to sunshadow21, I put up a post earlier suggesting Golarion's PC class demographics on the basis of a town they published, which suggested to me that villages would be quite likely to have witches. I do take your other points, though.
To the people who say that slumber Hex is a corner-case build for a witch, again earlier in this thread there were plenty of arguments suggesting that it might be more popular than that.
Maybe you can't please all the people all of the time, but I do find it interesting to postulate how the Pathfinder world hangs together and to write scenarios which I think are logical and realistic as much as my poor brain can figure it.
I will give another example which I thought of last night, which I thought was interesting.
In a battle raging somewhere in the depths of hell, various minions slug it out on the battle fields whilst the various higher level devils pair off and do individual combat.
Two Balrogs (er, Balors) go at one another with spells and whips and what have you, occasionally landing on the poor mooks below them, knocking over the scenery and so on before taking off and smashing at each other again.
All very cinematic.
Until Slumber Hex came along.
Now if one of those mooks happens to be a 1st level witch with Slumber, and they get within 30' of it, and they're not otherwise engaged, they have a 5% chance of settling the encounter between
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In the background the GM decides who lives and dies, not dice so it is a non-factor. Now if you want the dice to decide your story then take everything into account. One fireball kills the mooks before slumber takes place. Like I said the chances are so small that nothing changes. No different than if some low level mook gets off a few nat 20's against a much higher CR monster. It will be called as fluke unless that cookie cutter witch is involved. This is a problem in your game world, not anyone else's because once you stack the failure rate for level 1 characters's with the fact that they would run away the chances of giants or ____ dying drops a whole lot more.
If cackle is not taken that giant wakes up in round. If you take cackle with the feat that giant stays sleep until he can be picked off. That means the fight does not have to be adjacenet when the slumber hex takes affect.
I'm not seeing how cackle has anything to do with it; it lists very clearly the hexes it works with and slumber isn't one of them.
The example I gave was a battlefield - thousands upon thousands of mooks all slugging it out on the ground whilst the big guys tussle it out on top.
Tacticslion - I take your point but you were looking at Balor vs 1st level witch rather than Balor vs Balor.
TriOmegaZero - the Balors are going to be fully occupied against each other, if one of them starts killing some of the ants below him he's probably going to give away a vital advantage.
As far as the likelyhood of a 1st level Witch with Slumber in all of these cases which people keep claiming are rare, it doesn't come down to probability, it comes down to utility. If it turns out that Slumber Hex is more useful in more cases, either defending a village or having it in some of your foot soldiers, then its incidence will increase. People, including NPCs in a realistic world setting, gravitate towards wealth and power.
This whole issue about circumstances is always very geared towards PCs vs monsters. When a giant attacks a village, he's not going to be able to keep an eye on all the people and animals running around screaming around him. A witch will have no trouble getting within range of the giant while the giant is otherwise engaged - kicking down buildings, picking up a cow to take home or smashing a few heads. As long as the village has a 1st level witch there, with slumber hex, I think there's a very good chance that that giant wont go home. That, to me, makes the 1st level witch my arcane caster of choice in my village of 150 people (see earlier post on demographics), and that will drive up the incidence of arcane casters wanting to be witches (supply and demand and subsequent value placed on the caster).
Richard
Balor are leading commoners into battle now? Really?
In war the generals dont get involved, and if these did they would use demons, and those commoners would not be trying to get in the way. Point 2. If a witch can get into range to slumber a Balor then that balor's friends can get close enough to wake him up before he is killed.
I'm not seeing how cackle has anything to do with it; it lists very clearly the hexes it works with and slumber isn't one of them.
If cackle is not taken that giant wakes up in round. If you take cackle with the feat that giant stays sleep until he can be picked off. That means the fight does not have to be adjacenet when the slumber hex takes affect.
Without cackle the OP's case falls farther behind.. :)
How is that fighter going to be adjacent to coup de grace in one round? :) <----Question for the OP
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The argument (or at least one of the arguments) isn't player character group VS monsters, it is environment/campaign world VS monster ecology.
Possibly, but frankly it seems the thread jumped the shark with level 1 witches vs Balors, and all that has been going on for the last 100 posts was people trying to passionately assert which variety of shark it was.
You are aware that if you have several witches they can switch target every round? Being the target for the slumber hex from witch A don't make you immune to the slumber hex from witch B or C.
The range is 30 feet. They're waiting until the giants are nearly on top of them and then several witches are all coordinating to sleep-lock one giant.
Don't bother with a reply, I'm no longer following this discussion. I've already said everything relevant I have to say for this.
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Has the bar been set so low that now NPCs are allowed access to any material in the books? The Eldritch powers of my worlds (which the witch must commune with as their patron), Golarion or otherwise, choose to bestow their gifts at whim and will. Those sad maggots may not see a slumber hex witch in generations. PCs are unique that they can choose their mechanics are they not? Every NPC.could have straight.18s but may only be heading to the local garrison if they are not chosen by a God, cannot find their voice, summon the arcane or find that shifty fox or pig who is a conduit to the by and by.
Balors dont summon hordes of witches because demons are cheap, reliable and most likely dont answer to mysterious other powers.* Insert narrative explanation here*.Players are unique, their ability to pick and plan are unique. Or did I miss something?
Every power, every scenario, opens potential exploits. This thread reminds me of the great "create water" debate of oh...2011 or so. "But there would never be desert", etc. etc. etc.
But demons can be witches (i.e. have some level in the witch class), and the "mysterious other powers" would be a nascent demon lord, the one whose army the Balor is commanding.
A quasit/1st level witch is a way better low level soldier than a quasit 1st level fighter. A Babau demon abilities will have a interesting synergy with the slumebr hex.The supernatural abilities of the witch will be way more useful than spells from low level spellcasters in a fight between outsiders, where most of the creature have SR.
And a good number of GM feel that what is available to the PC should be available to the NPC too. Some ability will be rare, but the number of NPC is very high, so you will see NPC with any kind of ability if you meet enough of them.
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Giants and Balors and Witches oh my. I think all that is missing the point. A witch and a party of who cares with scythes, longspears, and greataxes walk into a 4-hour PFS scenario. The witch casts slumber on EVERYTHING nullifying 75% of the scenario and all walk out an hour later. The next three hours finds all the 'who cares' rolling up witches and the GM searching for a scenario specifically aimed at defeating witches (not many I grant you).
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The point is simply this-->This scenario can not play out enough times for it to be a game or world changing event without GM Fiat. Every case that is mentioned requires some miracles for the witch to survive, or extreme stupidity on team evil, and now that we know cackle and slumber can not be combined it makes the case a LOT weaker than it was, and even then it was struggling.
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I'm not seeing how cackle has anything to do with it; it lists very clearly the hexes it works with and slumber isn't one of them.
If cackle is not taken that giant wakes up in round. If you take cackle with the feat that giant stays sleep until he can be picked off. That means the fight does not have to be adjacenet when the slumber hex takes affect.Without cackle the OP's case falls farther behind.. :)
How is that fighter going to be adjacent to coup de grace in one round? :) <----Question for the OP
In the giant vs village scenario, it doesn't take a fighter to administer an effective coup-de-gras. Assuming the witch is only 1st level then she needs to fire her hex when the giant is attacking the villagers. They'll then be able to 5' step and coup-de-gras with pitchforks and the like with a very good chance of killing it. If the witch is 2nd level then the situation is much easier.
In the Balor vs Balor situation, a point that people continually miss is that the opponent Balor administers the coup de gras, without worrying about AoOs from the other low-level demons.
Richard
First of all if giants are attacking the average village is running and they won't likely be armed.
Two, yeah it could be an NPC warrior instead of a giant, but your original premise was a two man team, which one being adjacennt at the right time. Now since the militia would likely kill a giant or constripted town folk if it was a hill giant, especially considering how you showed the possibility of NPC classes, a single giant is going to die anyway. That means no single giant is attacking villages. If it is a raiding party the villagers run for their lives, and the slumber hex never takes place.
You are assuming the other Balor is next in the initiative order. That is once again GM narrative. It also assumes the witch survives and uses the slumber hex at the right time. More than likely the witch would be getting attacked, and since most witches dont have access to spells like mirror image surviving to get into that position is bigger issue than even droppign the hex. He also has to get there before vorpal is activated.
Once again very circumstantial situations. Demons being intelligent would have someone watching the flanks of both Balors, not that the balor would not notice some unprovoked human in no armor and make direct someone to kill it. For all the balor know it could be a 15th level ____, and he would not want that to interfere at all.
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The point is simply this-->This scenario can not play out enough times for it to be a game or world changing event without GM Fiat. Every case that is mentioned requires some miracles for the witch to survive, or extreme stupidity on team evil, and now that we know cackle and slumber can not be combined it makes the case a LOT weaker than it was, and even then it was struggling.
With PC vs monster you're right. The emphasis is on "play out". NPC situations are much more common because (a) there are a lot of NPC situations in the game world and (b) NPC situations are not that varied.
As to extreme stupidity on team evil - that's what we're trying to establish. What constitutes stupidity? I didn't think that a Hill Giant attacking a village of 150 souls was that stupid. Throw a few rocks in first, spread a bit of terror, attack and kill a few villagers - which in itself makes it hard for the warriors with the crossbows - grab a cow or some kids or something for dinner and leave and you're very likely to get away with it. With the possibility that one witch somewhere in there might put you to sleep while you're at it, long enough for one of those villagers to attempt a coup-de-gras, and it does become stupid.
Ditto the two Balors fighting over the battlefield, who previously didn't care about the footsoldiers below them, and who now would be rather stupid not to.
Richard
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Where you are going wrong in your analysis is in thinking of *the* first level witch as if there's only one of them on the battlefield. If this turns out to be a good tactic, there'll be dozens in and around all the other classes which those hellish footsoldiers might choose to take. It's not the case of *the* first level witch having to do anything, at some point or another *a* first level witch is very likely to find itself in the right position to do this *unless* the Balors take action to prevent it.Turtles all the way down, is it?
Any tactic which requires entire armies of first level witches, all built identically, to have even a sliver of a chance at success is a non issue. If Bill the Balor fields 1000 level one witches, and Benny the Balor fields 1000 Dretch, sure, Benny might fall to the dreaded slumber hex. Then Bob the Balor would kill Bill after equipping an item that prevents sleep. Meanwhile Bronson the Balor was never in danger, because he fields an army of demons that includes everything up through Maralith, and his army would annihilate 1000 level one characters while Bronson watched in amusement. How is Bronson safe from the awful hex? He flies.
This is a strawman argument. I have never talked about armies of 1st level witches or 1000 level one witches.
I agree it's a non issue.
I'm interested to know what item you were thinking of that prevents sleep, BTW.
As for Bronson the Balor, he would get beaten up by Bruce-Willis the Balor whose army consists of 1000 other Balors.
The idea that a Balor would field a hundred, or even dozens, or level one characters on the off chance that one might survive long enough to get in one lucky hex is such a far fetched one that it merits no influence on scenario writing.
Well, there, you and I must agree to differ.
Richard
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The point is simply this-->This scenario can not play out enough times for it to be a game or world changing event without GM Fiat. Every case that is mentioned requires some miracles for the witch to survive, or extreme stupidity on team evil, and now that we know cackle and slumber can not be combined it makes the case a LOT weaker than it was, and even then it was struggling.With PC vs monster you're right. The emphasis is on "play out". NPC situations are much more common because (a) there are a lot of NPC situations in the game world and (b) NPC situations are not that varied.
As to extreme stupidity on team evil - that's what we're trying to establish. What constitutes stupidity? I didn't think that a Hill Giant attacking a village of 150 souls was that stupid. Throw a few rocks in first, spread a bit of terror, attack and kill a few villagers - which in itself makes it hard for the warriors with the crossbows - grab a cow or some kids or something for dinner and leave and you're very likely to get away with it. With the possibility that one witch somewhere in there might put you to sleep while you're at it, long enough for one of those villagers to attempt a coup-de-gras, and it does become stupid.
Ditto the two Balors fighting over the battlefield, who previously didn't care about the footsoldiers below them, and who now would be rather stupid not to.
Richard
If it plays out the giants die less than 1% of the time. If that is world or game changing to you then we(you vs other posters) have different ideas on what that means.
A giant will not win vs 150 villagers(some will have actual class levels) no matter if you use actual game mechanics or simulate in a novel fashion so one giant against a village is a terrible idea and that is the stupid giant that dies anyway.
Cows would be valuable and that giant would not just walk off with one. If you want to play it out the giant dies or is wounded bad enough to not worry about stealing. He is better off killing a deer in the wild.
More likely it is a group of giants like I said, but at that point if a giant is put ot sleep there is a strong chance his buddy wakes him up and another buddy kills that annoying witch.
The two balors are smart enough to know anyone not in armor is likely a spellcaster and take measures to get rid of the problem. Now you might just run your monsters differently than I run mine, but that goes back to my last post which says it is a problem in "your" world. In my world those balors are likely to never see battle, and to me if it is not an actual problem then it is not a problem, and not a changer at all.
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Remember, cleave require the targets to be adjacent, not within reach of the giant. there is any reason for the characters to stay in adjacent squares?
If they are not adjacent that is fine. Rocks still work. It is just a matter of how they die.
Some reason for the witch (male or female) to be recognizable from the other villagers using farm instruments as weapons? For the villagers to wait for the giant in a open square to be squashed by throw rocks?
Why you should set up the villagers to fail against the giant?
Sure, the villagers will be squashed if the did go out in a giant hunt, but a single giant would risk his life every time he try to terrorize and blackmail a village.
I did no more setting up than the OP did. Adventures also tend to have gear that nonadventures do not so it is not hard to tell commoners from those that fight.
You can assume they dont have geat, but that is not the standard.
So by the standard they are easy to point out, and easy to kill. Most commoner will also be running in fear. The people not running are either adventures or very rare commoners. Guess where I am putting my money?
The scenario of which I am speaking is the one in which the giant is raiding a village or thorp. So the witch isn't necessarily an adventurer and the villagers aren't going out of their way to hunt the giant.
Yes, if the giant was raiding the outlying farms for the occasional sheep or cow the risk for him would be minimal. And probably the village would not have a outlying farm. As often happened in territories where pirate raids where common (like most of the Mediterranean coast, up to a day walk in the interior) the villages would be a cluster of adjacent homes with only narrow openings (akin to arrow slits) on the outside facing side. Even the lone dwelling would be constructed with that kind of mentality. Stuff like the settlers homes on the frontier,| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the purpose of this post adventurer=anyone with combat skills. I know that does not make them an "adventurer" but it is just a way to seperate combat classes from the normal people..
As for the rest of your post if outlying farms were left virtually undefended that may change dynamics so that a single giant would attack, but if single giants are attacking that means slumber is not really influencing that world.
If the farms were in the village, and not far( too far to get decent help) away, which means a considerable defense could be put up against one giant, the I don't see one giant, not even a hill giant raiding on his own. Even animals understand size and numbers.
In short you would need a giant dumb enough to raid on his own, when it is easier to hunt. I am sure the deer(insert other food as needed) is not as dangerous as a humanoid settlement.
PS: With all of this aside I would like a HD cap for thematic purposes, but it is not really world changing to me.
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As to extreme stupidity on team evil - that's what we're trying to establish. What constitutes stupidity? I didn't think that a Hill Giant attacking a village of 150 souls was that stupid. Throw a few rocks in first, spread a bit of terror, attack and kill a few villagers - which in itself makes it hard for the warriors with the crossbows - grab a cow or some kids or something for dinner and leave and you're very likely to get away with it. With the possibility that one witch somewhere in there might put you to sleep while you're at it, long enough for one of those villagers to attempt a coup-de-gras, and it does become stupid.
Ditto the two Balors fighting over the battlefield, who previously didn't care about the footsoldiers below them, and who now would be rather stupid not to.
Richard
So drop the kill a few villagers part and the rest is still just fine. A bear doesn't worry about killing the bees in the bee hive as he reaches in for a paw of honey before moving on. The base problem I have with your argument is the assumption the giant gives a flying hoot about the villagers themselves; more likely as not, the giant cares more about the cow than anything else. And a village of 150 people is probably safe from random attacks by lone giants anyway; that's large enough to have a militia that could be a headache even without a witch. It's the small hamlets that would have a bigger problem, and they are better off simply building in places that giants can't easily fit, or creating obstacles to create that same basic effect, then they are to worry about attacking every giant that passes by.
As for the Balors, no, they still don't care. They really don't. Commoners killed nobles and kings in real life battles all the time, and they were still ignored and belittled by the upper class. The chances of a commoner being able to plan to kill the generals and the kings was virtually nil, so while the general threat may have been there, even if the generals were afraid enough to care, the threat was generic enough to be the battlefield itself as much as any one risk on the battlefield. There generally wasn't a special enough threat to make them sweat, and this case would be no different.
For me, it's not even about team evil being stupid,but rather the still very high risks that both the witch and the warrior would have to take to pull it off. Everyone keeps focusing on the unusually high success rate, but ignores that the failure rate is still high enough that most witches are still not going to try unless they really have no choice. It's a comparatively cheap option for solutions that require specific people to be in the right place at the right time, but out in the wilderness, you don't throw warriors out there where there is a 50%+ chance of failure unless you really, really have no choice, and you don't risk the witch that is probably the town healer as well with those kinds of odds. In short, it never gets to team evil being stupid, because most NPCs aren't going to react that way consistently enough for it to be a consistent threat.
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But demons can be witches (i.e. have some level in the witch class), and the "mysterious other powers" would be a nascent demon lord, the one whose army the Balor is commanding.
A quasit/1st level witch is a way better low level soldier than a quasit 1st level fighter. A Babau demon abilities will have a interesting synergy with the slumebr hex.
The supernatural abilities of the witch will be way more useful than spells from low level spellcasters in a fight between outsiders, where most of the creature have SR.And a good number of GM feel that what is available to the PC should be available to the NPC too. Some ability will be rare, but the number of NPC is very high, so you will see NPC with any kind of ability if you meet enough of them.
Yes some GMs do let everything in the world be.everything but the rules dont support that logically because so many options make no sense if all options are open to everyone. Golarion would fundamentally not exist because it would be overrun with witches and druids (which according to another hot thread ATM, are the best class hands down) or something. Narrative explanations, setting fiat or some other mechanism ensures the setting exist. My point is taking the unique offerings of players and expanding on them creates waves (hence my reference to the Create Water debate) so at that point, sure, quasit witches rule the ashen wastes of reality in service of their Balor patron masters. Cool game, would tottally play that but it exists in the warp of applying rules on a scale beyond their intended purpose, no?
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Giants and Balors and Witches oh my. I think all that is missing the point. A witch and a party of who cares with scythes, longspears, and greataxes walk into a 4-hour PFS scenario. The witch casts slumber on EVERYTHING nullifying 75% of the scenario and all walk out an hour later. The next three hours finds all the 'who cares' rolling up witches and the GM searching for a scenario specifically aimed at defeating witches (not many I grant you).
Synergy? Congrats? They win?
Win what exactly Im not sure, last I checked people field characters of all types for different reasons. Gaming is repleat with munchkins doing tbere.thing, this is no different.
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Oh for the record, my balor fields elves. Maybe wizards...but any class will do.
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Oh, yeah? My balor fields a vast armor of dwarf skeletons wielding frying pans.
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Oh, yeah? My balor fields a vast armor of dwarf skeletons wielding frying pans.
Elves are immune to frying pans...arent they?