If you could change just one PFS rule - what would it be?


Pathfinder Society

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Scarab Sages 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Close the alternate type aasimar and tiefling floodgates. Seriously, there's no reason not to be one.

I also thought that there was little reason not be be one of either, but I have noticed a lack of tieflings lately, and the number of aasimars are lower as well (except in pet classes where they seem to dominate). Humans and Half-Elves seem to be the common ones again. Heck I've played or GM'ed quite a few tables (within the last year) made up of all Core Book races (quite unlike the all aasimar/tiefling tables that were common when the races first opened up).

I have yet to get a race boon - and I like the aasimar and tiefling options given that the other races are closed unless you have a boon.

I would like to see another small race besides gnome and halfling opened up for general play - not goblin - perhaps a version of aasimar or tiefling based on a small race platform.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Dhjika wrote:
except in pet classes where they seem to dominate

Yeah, celestial servant is an obscenely good feat for a critterclass. Unless you need to be small to ride it with a lance you're probably going to go for it.


I would allow the GM to adjust enemy tactics. From what I have been told if the books say the BBEG will start off doing ____ then the GM must use ____.

Silver Crusade 2/5 *

wraithstrike wrote:
I would allow the GM to adjust enemy tactics. From what I have been told if the books say the BBEG will start off doing ____ then the GM must use ____.

Yup, that's the way it works.

5/5 *****

David Bowles wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I would allow the GM to adjust enemy tactics. From what I have been told if the books say the BBEG will start off doing ____ then the GM must use ____.
Yup, that's the way it works.

Unless something the PC's have done already invalidates the tactic. What that means is a major source of table variation.

Silver Crusade 2/5 *

"Invalidate" is a very subjective term, however. NPCs don't a priori know that they can't hit the tower shield specialist, etc. There is a huge gulf between NPC knowledge and GM knowledge, so this invalidate clause should rarely come up.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

glass wrote:

Now that's funny!

Ever played with a properly built gunslinger?

Grand Lodge 4/5

David Bowles wrote:
"Invalidate" is a very subjective term, however. NPCs don't a priori know that they can't hit the tower shield specialist, etc. There is a huge gulf between NPC knowledge and GM knowledge, so this invalidate clause should rarely come up.

It is more when teh PCs come in through the exit, or other things that make obvious hash of the initial tactics, like having the barbarian in your face when your initial tactic is to cast X or drink potion/extract B..

3/5

Disk Elemental wrote:
glass wrote:

Now that's funny!

Ever played with a properly built gunslinger?

Depends how you define "properly built". I don't know how to make them anything other than abject up to 3rd level (when they can finally get the feats they need for basic functionality).

My understanding is that at higher levels, they can really dish some damage, but in a game with flying greater-invisible casters and infinite wish loops, damage is just not that impressive.

I mean, mere fighters can do damage!

glass.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Close the alternate type aasimar and tiefling floodgates. Seriously, there's no reason not to be one.

Reasons to not be an aasimar or tiefling:

• Your concept involves a specific race
• You want a bonus feat at 1st level
• You want to be small
• You want a race-specific archetype/spell for another race
• You want some racial weapon proficiencies
• You want that dual-minded half-elf's +2 Will on your fighter
• You want that dwarven save bonus against spells
• You want that half-orc tattoo luck bonus to saves
• You want +2 to two physical stats, like STR/CON (dual-talent human)

Should I keep going?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

glass wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
glass wrote:

Now that's funny!

Ever played with a properly built gunslinger?

Depends how you define "properly built". I don't know how to make them anything other than abject up to 3rd level (when they can finally get the feats they need for basic functionality).

My understanding is that at higher levels, they can really dish some damage, but in a game with flying greater-invisible casters and infinite wish loops, damage is just not that impressive.

I mean, mere fighters can do damage!

glass.

That would be an issue except PFS play typically caps at level 11, with limited options for play at level 12 and above. So the highest spell level casters will be getting to is 6.

This adjusts the power curve for classes quite a bit, and gives martial classes time to shine.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Jiggy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Close the alternate type aasimar and tiefling floodgates. Seriously, there's no reason not to be one.

Reasons to not be an aasimar or tiefling:

• Your concept involves a specific race
• You want a bonus feat at 1st level
• You want to be small
• You want a race-specific archetype/spell for another race
• You want some racial weapon proficiencies
• You want that dual-minded half-elf's +2 Will on your fighter
• You want that dwarven save bonus against spells
• You want that half-orc tattoo luck bonus to saves
• You want +2 to two physical stats, like STR/CON (dual-talent human)

Should I keep going?

I agree with all of the above (Especially the first). However, there are an immense number of characters that, purely mechanically, are best done by an Aasimar or Tiefling. And some of the early entry prestige class characters all but require them (I have a Mystic Theurge who is Aasimar from necessity. I'd much prefer for her to be human).

I'm enough of a power gamer to dislike knowing that an Aasimar bard is significantly better than my Human bard. It bugs me that I had to pay a price to be human.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

glass wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
glass wrote:

Now that's funny!

Ever played with a properly built gunslinger?

Depends how you define "properly built". I don't know how to make them anything other than abject up to 3rd level (when they can finally get the feats they need for basic functionality).

My understanding is that at higher levels, they can really dish some damage, but in a game with flying greater-invisible casters and infinite wish loops, damage is just not that impressive.

I mean, mere fighters can do damage!

Correct. Levels 1-3 of Gunslinger suck. However, at 5th you get to add Dex to Damage, at 6th you get a third attack, and at 7th you get the ability to practically ignore DR.

Contrary to popular belief, even at 7th level, damage is still required to kill things, and Gunslingers are the most consistent damage dealers. You're correct in saying that Gunslingers fall off by the time the Wizard can infinite wish loop, and Wail of the Banshee at will, but PFS doesn't get that high, so it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Gunslingers also make fantastic tanks, due to having d10 HD, high Dex, fantastic saves, free AC, and the ability to fight defensively, with little to no penalty.

I second the motion to ban Alternate Assimar and Tiefling bloodlines, those two races are power-gamey enough already.

The Exchange 5/5

banning Aasimar and Tiefling bloodlines? or the races total?

I have a friend of my that says something very much like this about Dwarves. Something about the alternite racial traits and being uneffected by armor.

I've actually given it a lot of thought, when the racial boons were first coming out. I held onto my racial boons for... months, and started 3 new characters (core races) before I actually used one. I've given the rest to other people - who in turn gave one of them (a tiefling) on to a third person.

Are they different? yes. Are they better - for some concepts sure! but ... sorry, my opinion is still my opinion.

I have an Elven character with a Boon to boost Perception (+2). Does that make him better than a Dwarf? Yeah! he's got a +4 to perception... wait... does that make him a better Cleric than the dwarf?

I have two Clerics with Spell Resistance... they'er both Dwarves. Which of the expanded races gets Darkvision, a bonus to WIS, full movement in Heavy armor, and Spell Resistance? Not better than, just different.

Everything is relative. There are a lot of corner cases.

Silly Corner Case: I have several characters with Hat's of Disguise. I use the item for a lot of things - one of which is the "police sketch artist" where my PC makes himself look like someone so that a witness can give the rest of the party a look at what that someone looks like. It came as a shock when I realized that Tieflings and Aasimar can't do that. They can't use Disguise Self to look like a PERSON, 'cause they aren't a person. Enlarge & Reduce person don't work on them (or Hold, or Charm... you get the idea).

and now I have rambled way to much, and should likly not have bothered to post this - it is just my opinion after all... maybe the internet will eat this and I'll be to tired to re-type it again.)

The Exchange 5/5

pauljathome wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Close the alternate type aasimar and tiefling floodgates. Seriously, there's no reason not to be one.

Reasons to not be an aasimar or tiefling:

• Your concept involves a specific race
• You want a bonus feat at 1st level
• You want to be small
• You want a race-specific archetype/spell for another race
• You want some racial weapon proficiencies
• You want that dual-minded half-elf's +2 Will on your fighter
• You want that dwarven save bonus against spells
• You want that half-orc tattoo luck bonus to saves
• You want +2 to two physical stats, like STR/CON (dual-talent human)

Should I keep going?

I agree with all of the above (Especially the first). However, there are an immense number of characters that, purely mechanically, are best done by an Aasimar or Tiefling. And some of the early entry prestige class characters all but require them (I have a Mystic Theurge who is Aasimar from necessity. I'd much prefer for her to be human).

I'm enough of a power gamer to dislike knowing that an Aasimar bard is significantly better than my Human bard. It bugs me that I had to pay a price to be human.

you know, I have a human bard who has leveled to 11th. I started another and she is now 5.2 (almost 6th), and she's a halfling. Each time I started one, I considered race and picked the best (in my opinion) for what I wanted to do. I am building another, so maybe I'll go Aasimar... but I hate to pay the price to be plane-touched, the things to give up... The extra spells for the human (often swapped for Bardic Masterpieces - so she has 11 extra spells and masterpieces), the small size for the halfling...

Shadow Lodge 4/5

nosig wrote:
banning Aasimar and Tiefling bloodlines? or the races total?

Bloodlines. As much as I dislike them, the races are here to stay, and banning them would be too much of a hassle.

nosig wrote:


I have a friend of my that says something very much like this about Dwarves. Something about the alternite racial traits and being uneffected by armor.

The thing is, Dwarves have stat bonuses/penalties which lock them out of a lot of classes. The armor trait is meant to balance out their 20 ft movement speed, which puts them on par with any other medium race in medium/heavy armor. The penalty to Charisma means that Dwarf Clerics either need to spend a bunch of ability points, or pretty much neglect a good class feature.

The reason alternate assimars and tieflings get so much flak, is they get a whole lot of really awesome and useful traits (Darkvision, elemental resistances, spell-likes, bonuses on useful skills, immunity to "person" spells), while still retaining the versatility to do pretty much anything.

I think everyone is fine with races that are good at one specific thing (I don't see anyone complaining about Elven Wizards), however, once the race becomes good at everything, without sacrificing any of it's specialization, then we have a problem.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Humans are good at everything.

Scarab Sages 5/5

nosig wrote:


Silly Corner Case: I have several characters with Hat's of Disguise. I use the item for a lot of things - one of which is the "police sketch artist" where my PC makes himself look like someone so that a witness can give the rest of the party a look at what that someone looks like. It came as a shock when I realized that Tieflings and Aasimar can't do that. They can't use Disguise Self to look like a PERSON, 'cause they aren't a person. Enlarge & Reduce person don't work on them (or Hold, or Charm... you get the idea).

So while you can't change your type with Disguise Self - there are lots of interesting outsiders you could choose to be. [like ice elementals for a game I recently GM'ed - and a game before that that gave access to 5 charge disguise self wands]

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jiggy wrote:
Humans are good at everything.

They make absolutely horrible rogues. They need a light source to see, and it doesn't matter what your stealth score is, the kobold can't NOT notice the torch in the darkness.

You can see? Its too light for you to sneak up on anyone.

You can't see? Sorry, concealment, no sneak attack for you.

It also doesn't matter if humans (as an aggregate) are second best at everything. If any other race (or effectively a group of races) does it better, thats what people are going to be inclined to go with.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Jiggy wrote:
Humans are good at everything.

Correct.

But humans don't get spell-likes, darkvision, elemental resistances, or a bunch of other things. They pay a hefty price for their versatility.

EDIT:
Saying there's magic to fix their problems doesn't really help. There's magic items and spells to deal with every downside for every character.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Humans are good at everything.

They make absolutely horrible rogues. They need a light source to see, and it doesn't matter what your stealth score is, the kobold can't NOT notice the torch in the darkness.

You can see? Its too light for you to sneak up on anyone.

You can't see? Sorry, concealment, no sneak attack for you.

Yeah, but that bonus feat can get you Shadow Strike so you can Sneak Attack a concealed target.

And a potion of darkvision lasts three freaking hours. :D

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Also, to be fair, most aasimar/tiefling heritages don't get used much.

Vanilla tieflings for wizards, witches, magi, maybe rogues.
Oni-spawn for fighty clerics or monks.
Honestly haven't seen much else in the way of tieflings.

Vanilla aasimar for clerics/oracles/sorcerers/druids.
Musetouched bards/ninjas/sorcerers.
Angel-blooded for paladins, maybe the occasional dragon disciple.
Occasionally, lawbringer clerics or garuda-blooded monks/gunslingers/inquisitor-archers.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jiggy wrote:


Yeah, but that bonus feat can get you Shadow Strike so you can Sneak Attack a concealed target.

So you've used your bonus feat to kinda get something that's not as good as what you would have gotten if you'd gone with another race .... when said other race also has a lot of other things going for it. In return you get.. what as a human exactly?

Quote:
And a potion of darkvision lasts three freaking hours. :D

Which gets expensive to buy every adventure, AND you can't buy one till level 2 (or possibly later) unless you get one on a chronicle sheet.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I didn't say humans were the best for every character, just that they're good at everything/don't make "absolutely horrible" rogues.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

When considering the problems of a human rogue, it is not the race that is the problem.

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


Yeah, but that bonus feat can get you Shadow Strike so you can Sneak Attack a concealed target.

So you've used your bonus feat to kinda get something that's not as good as what you would have gotten if you'd gone with another race .... when said other race also has a lot of other things going for it. In return you get.. what as a human exactly?

Quote:
And a potion of darkvision lasts three freaking hours. :D
Which gets expensive to buy every adventure, AND you can't buy one till level 2 (or possibly later) unless you get one on a chronicle sheet.

In fairness - I have run rogues in PFS both with darkvision and without, and you never get to hide from the monsters anyway, dark or not... it's a very uncommon judge who pays any attention at all to stealth skill, and no two intrepret the rules the same.

My most effective rogue is human though - and has Hellcat Stealth now, so she can hide in the light (that the other PCs are carrying).

Shadow Lodge 2/5

since we're leading up to it...

rogues as a legal class

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Jiggy wrote:

Also, to be fair, most aasimar/tiefling heritages don't get used much.

Which is most likely because only a small amount of the players have the books, and of the people that do have it, some of them refuse to use it.

Jiggy wrote:


Vanilla tieflings for wizards, witches, magi, maybe rogues.
Oni-spawn for fighty clerics or monks.

Oni/Qlippoth-spawn also make great Inquisitors, Fighters, Samurai, and Barbarians

Div and Rakshasha spawn are great Sorcerers, Ninjas, Summoners, Bards, and Oracles.
Vanilla also makes good Alchemists

Now let's look at the list.

Out of every class, how many of them are Tieflings *not* capable of doing?

Four.

There are four classes that Tieflings aren't good at, and that's assuming they can't be Bow-Based Rangers, or Gunslingers because they only get one feat.

Go through the assimar list, and you'll find that it's pretty much the same.

I understand that they aren't as perfectly versatile as humans/half-elves/half-orcs, but the amount of versatility they do get is ridiculous, and they get some really cool abilities on top of that.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Jiggy wrote:

Also, to be fair, most aasimar/tiefling heritages don't get used much.

Vanilla tieflings for wizards, witches, magi, maybe rogues.
Oni-spawn for fighty clerics or monks.
Honestly haven't seen much else in the way of tieflings.

Vanilla aasimar for clerics/oracles/sorcerers/druids.
Musetouched bards/ninjas/sorcerers.
Angel-blooded for paladins, maybe the occasional dragon disciple.
Occasionally, lawbringer clerics or garuda-blooded monks/gunslingers/inquisitor-archers.

Just made a Pitborn tiefling Lunar Oracle. Would be a great choice for any combat-focused oracle but for one with the Wrecker curse it was almost *too* perfect.

4/5

Wraithcannon wrote:

Allow GM credit for running the same scenario multiple times. If I can find a table of fresh players that haven't played it, for whom I can run it, why are you shorting my GM credits?

I realize that not buying new scenarios cuts into Paizo's pockets, but I think this situation is fringe enough that it wouldn't significantly bother them. Other than once or twice a year at conventions, how often do you RUN outside your local PFS circles?

And if you do have a large enough group that fresh players are cycling in, again, why are you cutting off the GM's knees by removing part of his incentive to run? If he has run that scenario, and had a great time running it, why shortchange the players in what will probably be an even better game the second time around because now he's familiar with it by making him pull out a fresh scenario so that he can get credit for it?

I know I know, "But it still counts towards your GM Stars". Whatever, I don't think it's too much to ask.

If your part of the online community, its huge. You could run the same scenario a score times and not have ran it for everyone. Even my FLGS group I could run it probably 5 or 6 times before everyone had played it. Not saying I'm against this, just pointing out some gaps.

Silver Crusade 2/5 *

Darkvision is the single most undercosted ability in the ARG. The power races all have darkvision. Not a shock.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Make ITS's voluntary so we can stop arguing over them.

3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Though this will never happen, it could make for a good discussion:

-Reduce PFS characters' point-buy down to 15, as well as sharply reduce the number of Additional Resources offerings which a given character can take, in order to align the power level of PFS characters with the power level that Paizo products expect.

In other words, if the APs assume 15-point PCs with little to no non-Core options, would PFS be better served if its PCs adhered to the same baseline?

-Matt

3/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Make ITS's voluntary so we can stop arguing over them.

As much as I agree, I have to disagree. CHaning things to stop arguments? Have you seen what people argue about?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
Have you seen what people argue about?

That's the reason Paizo would never hire me as a forum mod.

3/5

I like their laissez-faire attitude on the forum.

Almost all of the people argueing are paying customers. Granted there are many dumb posts(I have some), but upsetting a customer because they are dumb is not smart either.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Make ITS's voluntary so we can stop arguing over them.

ITS?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Inventory Tracking Sheets.

Finlanderboy wrote:
I like their laissez-faire attitude on the forum.

I would rule with an iron fist and scorched earth until Gary pulled my plug.

Grand Lodge

Mattastrophic wrote:

Though this will never happen, it could make for a good discussion:

-Reduce PFS characters' point-buy down to 15, as well as sharply reduce the number of Additional Resources offerings which a given character can take, in order to align the power level of PFS characters with the power level that Paizo products expect.

In other words, if the APs assume 15-point PCs with little to no non-Core options, would PFS be better served if its PCs adhered to the same baseline?

-Matt

Making martials far worse while casters lose a few powerful options is going to make a large segment of players unhappy. I'm aware you're one of the posters who is far on the other side of number crunching in terms of enjoyment, but I don't think this solves anything. Besides, depowering characters so significantly in the middle of a living campaign by itself will make no one happy. This would be a lot more doable at the start of a campaign.

I would probably change the replay rule to refresh. As someone who has been playing weekly for about a year now, with extra games some weeks, I do not find my relatively regular rate of play to be very sustainable. Changing the replay rule gives a lot more leeway in what a player can do to stretch their plays and even further emphasizes GMing as a service you should be doing and rewards you for it.


Thanks TOZ. People argue about them? They seem rather handy to me. Trying to write more than four or five purchases / sales on pre-fifth season chronicles seems rather inconvenient by comparison.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Kurthnaga wrote:
Mattastrophic wrote:

Though this will never happen, it could make for a good discussion:

-Reduce PFS characters' point-buy down to 15, as well as sharply reduce the number of Additional Resources offerings which a given character can take, in order to align the power level of PFS characters with the power level that Paizo products expect.

In other words, if the APs assume 15-point PCs with little to no non-Core options, would PFS be better served if its PCs adhered to the same baseline?

-Matt

Making martials far worse while casters lose a few powerful options is going to make a large segment of players unhappy. I'm aware you're one of the posters who is far on the other side of number crunching in terms of enjoyment, but I don't think this solves anything. Besides, depowering characters so significantly in the middle of a living campaign by itself will make no one happy. This would be a lot more doable at the start of a campaign.

I somewhat agree with Matt. My suggestion would be to leave the Core races at 20-point buy, and have the expanded races use reduced point buys, based on the number of Race Points from the ARG. I would give Aasimar 15 points, Tieflings 16 points, and Tengu 17 points. For races on boons, I would give them 30 minus the number of RPs in the ARG (with a max of 20 points).

Of course this will probably never happen. That's okay, I don't think the point of this thread is only to suggest changes that are likely to happen.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Legalize Cthulhu

4/5 5/5

Change the faction system: my hunter cares for freedom and such but he does not care a bit what happens to Andoran. I would like more factions that are not related to country's like the Grand Lodge, Silver Crusade and Shadow Lodge

Scarab Sages

I would cut the race options back to core. Every PFS game I've played in the last year or so has had about 50%+ outsiders or furry PCs.

The 'special' options aren't 'special' anymore if they're overused.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Mattastrophic wrote:

Though this will never happen, it could make for a good discussion:

-Reduce PFS characters' point-buy down to 15, as well as sharply reduce the number of Additional Resources offerings which a given character can take, in order to align the power level of PFS characters with the power level that Paizo products expect.

In other words, if the APs assume 15-point PCs with little to no non-Core options, would PFS be better served if its PCs adhered to the same baseline?

-Matt

If we were going to change stats at all, I'd rather just go straight to the Heroic stat array (15/14/13/12/10/8). Now everyone's a believable person.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Jiggy wrote:
Mattastrophic wrote:

Though this will never happen, it could make for a good discussion:

-Reduce PFS characters' point-buy down to 15, as well as sharply reduce the number of Additional Resources offerings which a given character can take, in order to align the power level of PFS characters with the power level that Paizo products expect.

In other words, if the APs assume 15-point PCs with little to no non-Core options, would PFS be better served if its PCs adhered to the same baseline?

-Matt

If we were going to change stats at all, I'd rather just go straight to the Heroic stat array (15/14/13/12/10/8). Now everyone's a believable person.

Would this mean that Paizo would also lower the level in which characters become Seekers? If they went to a 15 point buy, I'd be less interested in organized play. A 20 point buy isn't bad seeing as how most organized play tends to slow down considerably at level 12 and beyond.

As for my own wish if I could change a rule in PFS.. introduce a way to let players get special race boons, but maybe make that option only possible once a year (outside of conventions). And maybe require Aasimars, Tieflings, and Tengu to require a race boon to play again. OR introduce more races that can be played without a boon requirement.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Hulking Hurler wrote:
I'd like Monkey Grip.

Permadeath to Monkey Grip. Not even an empowered wish should bring that back.

I'd like to see the Crane Wing nerf modified. A monk can use it the old way (defect an attack after the fact) by spending a ki point. Otherwise you're stuck with using it the way it is.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

SlimGauge wrote:
Hulking Hurler wrote:
I'd like Monkey Grip.

Permadeath to Monkey Grip. Not even an empowered wish should bring that back.

I'd like to see the Crane Wing nerf modified. A monk can use it the old way (defect an attack after the fact) by spending a ki point. Otherwise you're stuck with using it the way it is.

It would be a way for monks to actually use their Ki points but what about characters using that feat who also don't have monk levels?

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Jiggy wrote:
Humans are good at everything.

So are Aasimar and tieflings. At least when you include all the varisnts

The Exchange 5/5

pauljathome wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Humans are good at everything.
So are Aasimar and tieflings. At least when you include all the varisnts

Are they better - for some character concepts sure! but ... not for all. Some work better for humans. Sorry to disagree, and my opinion is still just one opinion.

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