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But, C'est La Vie. Whatever works for your game, man. And the work shows.
I also added a bit more, since one of my players was a Hellknight and Cheliax will be playing a larger role in my campaign after we finish Carrion Crown.
We know from Mythic Realms that the Whispering Tyrant became mythic thanks to whatever happened inside the Cenotaph. So being killed by a god didn't make him mythic, but it was apparently part of the catalyst for his becoming a lich. Presumably because Tar-Baphon was a super overachiever.
Which means that, during their first encounter, Tar-Baphon had set up a situation where he would "win" no matter how it ended:
If Aroden fell into the trap and was defeated ... Tar-Baphon wins. I mean, either he killed a god or he imprisoned one IUZ style.
If Aroden DOESN'T fall into the trap and ends up killing Tar-Baphon ... Tar-Baphon becomes a lich and still "wins".
So when the Whispering Tyrant came back, Aroden naturally wanted to go fight him. Because when you've spent several lifetimes as a wandering immortal adventurer, NOT killing evil world-conquering wizards is a hard habit to break.
However, Aroden wasn't stupid. He remembered how uncomfortably close he came to losing in their last fight. And if the mortal Tar-Baphon was clever enough to set up a win/win situation and nearly take down a demigod ... what was the now mythical lich Tyrant capable of? The stakes were a lot higher this time, and the Whispering Way is apparently really old and mysterious.
So Aroden sat back and observed first. Investigated his enemy. Unwilling to move without a little more recon of the situation. Which, of course, gave the Tyrant a chance to sack a huge chunk of the world and cause untold suffering ... all of which made Aroden increasingly impatient. He WANTED to go fight but he knew that he couldn't yet.
The frustration of sitting back while other people did the fighting and not being able to figure out the Tyrant's endgame resulted in Aroden seeking some advice from the best-known strategist of them all. Asmodeus.
Asmodeus may be ... really REALLY evil ... but he's not the "kill the whole world" kind of evil. That's a little too ... daemon-ish. The goals of hell, and the goals of the Whispering Way, don't exactly match up. So letting Aroden blunder into the Tyrant's trap wouldn't be in the best interest of Asmodeus. And, fortunately, it just so happens that Asmodeus has some experience with epic god traps (*cough* Rovagug *cough*).
So, in my world, it was Asmodeus who helped Aroden outmaneuver the Whispering Tyrant. Specifically, he provided advice while Aroden's people did all the heavy lifting. Which fits.
...And it was Aroden's guilt that lead him to show up in person to curb-stomp Deskari a while later. Venting frustration by squashing a (very big) bug.
Sadly, Aroden never asked if the conduit between him and the Tyrant could be made to go both ways.
So, years later, Asmodeus walked away clean. He cleared two opponents off his plate by giving Aroden what he needed to lock away the Tyrant forever the Tyrant what he needed to kill Aroden. He also showed the world that they couldn't take on big threats like the Tyrant or the Worldwound without the assistance of a big tough god and a highly organized empire. After all, just look at what happened when a god got involved (Deskari was defeated handily) vs. when a god didn't get involved (the Tyrant killed millions and offed a demigod). So when Aroden died, naturally people turned to someone like Asmodeus to fill that protection/empire void.
Deal with the devil, and whatnot.
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That logical path of thought was well and truly AWESOME!
All I can say is just WOW!
Thanks for posting it so I can bother my players with it.
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Yeah, credit where credit is due. This is quality stuff.
@Aberrant Templar
Your logic about TB's fall is awesome, simply WOW. Sure it's needlesly complicated but still WOW and the logic is sound.
About asmodeus being a great strategist, no he isn't, he is a great liar, con man etc. but strategist no it's not. If you want a great strategist you go to Torag, since a)iirc gorum didn't exist back then and b)it's quite difficult to make him stop being a bully for enough time to talk strategy (unless you make him fight).
While i am not sure about that but i think that asmodeus made the cage of the rovagug and not lure him inside.
@everyone else
Let me see if understood the facts correctly:
1)Mortal (human?) non mythic wizard Tar Baphon tries to kill deity Aroden by laying a trap in the isle of terror (the big hole with the negative energy portal at the bottom).
2)Deity Aroden goes into the town and beats Tar Baphon and throws him in his big negative energy hole.
The above are known from city of golden death.
3)Dungeons of Golarion retcons/reveals that Tar Baphon made his trap in a way that he would win (become lich) even if Aroden won and threw him inside.
If i got the above correct, where/how did Tar Baphon gained his mythic powers and from what book(s) do you draw that material? (other than mythic realms)
Thank you all for creating this thread and sharing that knowledge, it's really a very interesting discussion.
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That's a very awesome theory. It makes sense, even. TB still had a fully functional god-trap at Xin-Shalast, why go make another one? Because it had to be more powerful. I really like that train of thought.
@leo1925: Mythic Realms is the only Golarion specific book talking about mythic NPC's. TB's trip through Zutha's monolith dungeon is the only mention about him becoming mythic (exact method intentionally vague, but implied that Zutha's body or something near it bestows Mythic Power). I don't have my copy downloaded on here to reference, but I think he was already lichy before mythic. Which goes to show how much more badass he was, because as a non-mythic Necro 20, he was big-bad enough to go toe-to-toe with Aroden.
EDIT: ninja'd by archmagi1: was he already a lich? Somehow I didn't remember that. Hm... let me check my copy...
Leo, it seems that Tar Baphon was already mythic when he tangled with Aroden. He gained his mythic powers originally from the Cenotaph, the artifact-site mentioned in Mythic Realms.
Thus it goes:
1) powerful mortal human non-mythic wizard (necromancer) Tar Baphon discovers the Cenotaph and utilizes his unequaled arcane skill to be the first (and currently only) being to plumb the depths to learn the secrets of Thassilonian necromancy.
2) powerful (mortal?) human mythic wizard (necromancer) Tar Baphon lays a trap in the Isle of Terror for Aroden with a Xanatos Gambit - by calling Aroden out, he has the option of killing a god (win), trapping a god (win), or dying and becoming a mythic lich (win)
3) while the gambit was successful (and Tar died badly) the dead Tar Baphon took a really, really, really long time to regenerate as a lich after Aroden curbstomps the daylights out of him; but when he did he became a mythic lich
4) Aroden chose not to participate in the battle against Tar after he became a lich for reasons unknown
@archmagi1
Do you mean Xin-Grafar? the city of gold that TB has on the isle of terror and named in Thassilonian fashion or the actual Xin-Shalast the capital of the runelord of greed Karzoug. If it's the latter, how does Karzoug comes to the story this time?
@Tacticslion
What is the Cenotaph and what is the Xanatos Gambit?
The Cenotaph is an ancient artifact built by the old Runelord of Gluttony, Zutha.
A Xanatos Gambit is a meticulously calculated plot that, no matter what, results in the person implementing the gambit winning at whatever their ultimate goals are. It is, in effect, a win-win scenario. The term, "Xanatos Gambit" has nothing to do with Pathfinder, but is a generic term named for the primary villain (David Xanatos) in the old Disney cartoon Gargoyles. (An excellent show entirely worth watching, ... at least until the Goliath Chronicles.)
Follow the links I've provided if you wish to learn more.
Given that the wiki article says "the Whispering Tyrant" marched his armies, and he only gained that monicker after his ascension to undeath, that lends credence to archmagi1's suggestion that he was non-mythic when he first tangled with Aroden.
In any event, he is now a mythic lich and has mythic tiers in archmagus, according to mythic realms.
(I am privately extremely pleased that Jatembe is more intelligent. Heh, suck on that, Tar.)
Thanks, and the Cenotaph is mentioned in the mythic realms and not in dungeons of Golarion, correct?
But I do think it seems a little odd that a mythic lich isn't powerful or clever enough to get past a magical ward ... even though that's kind of what he does ... but his cowardly minion apparently is.Could it not simply be because Gallowspire was designed by those mortals using artifacts specifically to trap Tar-Baphon rather than his cowardly minion? Occam's Razor, in essence.
This was more or less my take on it as well. That said, it seems implied that nothing gets in or out because of the seal.
If i got the above correct, where/how did Tar Baphon gained his mythic powers and from what book(s) do you draw that material? (other than mythic realms)Mythic Realms details how he got his power (the Cenotaph, a mythic fount of power with associated abilities and rules in the same book).
Exactly. :)
In any event, he is now a mythic lich and has mythic tiers in archmagus, according to mythic realms.Actually, he doesn't have Archmage tiers. He has Wild Arcana, but that's a result of his mythic lich ranks rather than mythic tiers in Archmage. He seems to have swapped the tiers out when he made the jump to mythic lich.
Really? Arg. I can't find my book right now. :/
(It's also really, really weird to me.)Thanks. :)
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About asmodeus being a great strategist, no he isn't, he is a great liar, con man etc. but strategist no it's not. If you want a great strategist you go to Torag, since a)iirc gorum didn't exist back then and b)it's quite difficult to make him stop being a bully for enough time to talk strategy (unless you make him fight).
While i am not sure about that but i think that asmodeus made the cage of the rovagug and not lure him inside.
Maybe we're looking at the word "strategist" from different angles. Perhaps "schemer" would be a better word for me to use.
Aroden wouldn't have needed any help with military strategy. He may not have been as great at that sort of thing as someone like Torag but he was decent enough at it to have built an empire, and his conflict with the Whispering Tyrant was never really about warfare. It always seemed rather personal. Yes, there were armies involved and tons and tons of people died ... but that wasn't really the point either time they fought each other. Mass battles were the sideshow, not the main event. And, realistically, if Aroden had come down in person the armies probably wouldn't have been quite so necessary. Aroden was bumping of Demon Lords and their minions in personal combat. He didn't really need an army behind him to do damage. And the Tyrant never really seemed to care about crushing the crusaders. The only times we have a record of him personally involving himself in a fight were to kill Arazni in 3823, to set up Iomeade at the battle of Three Sorrows (the 5th & presumably 6th Acts of Iomeade), and then to (fail to) kill General Arnisant in 3827. Other than a few pokes and prods, it looks like he just sat back and waited for Aroden to show up, letting his minions do all the fighting, while periodically stepping out to crush whoever the biggest, baddest crusader on the battlefield was as a way to taunt Aroden and push him into coming out to fight (because the people he went after; Arzani, Iomeade, and Arnisant, all had a personal connection to Aroden).
So when I said "strategy" I meant something more like "what is the Tyrant up to? What is his angle? He wants me to show myself, but I don't believe for a minute that this will be a straight fight or that he even wants a fight. What sort of trap is he setting up?"
And, for that, Asmoedus is perfect. As smart and sneaky as the Tyrant may have been, he was still a rank armature compared to Asmodeus. His domains are trickery and deception. When it comes to wheels within wheels planning, he's the king. Plus, he is a god of magic (it's one of his domains). So not only is he qualified to out-con the Tyrant, but he's also qualified to understand all the epic magical stuff involved:
As he is a being of impossible age and intelligence, even what seem to be split decisions undergo deliberation and consideration from countless angles. Once his commands are spoken few can hope to change his mind to their favor. He demands order, yet as a being of vast intellect, he can often perceive patterns and reasons where none seem present—tales say that he had a hand in arranging the places of the stars, the architecture of living forms, and the laws of physical existence. All of his cunning, genius, and passion Asmodeus teams with a deft tongue and disarming charm.
Even the most benevolent deities have, at times, sought out Asmodeus’s council, and afterward, have shuddered to realize that the Ruler of Hell is no monster, but a charismatic, sane, and wise being opposed to all they believe, yet nonetheless deserving of their awe.
Amodeus despises mortals, but he gets along well enough with the betters of mortals (i.e. gods). Even though Aroden was once a mortal himself, he's one of the divine family now. Which makes him better than that obnoxious upstart twerp of a lich vandalizing the world that Asmodeus is going to someday control. And as far as gods go, Asmodeus would probably have though fairly well of Aroden (by comparison). Aroden was lawful, was not good, was male, and was totally into empire building. Those are things Asmodeus approves of. I find it totally believable that Aroden would seek Asmodeus's help, and that Asmodeus would be thrilled (and successful) at giving it.
Of course, the involvement of Asmodeus is a hypothesis at best, and mostly just something I decided for my home game. I don't have any real evidence to point to other than personalities, the Rule of Cool, and a little sympathy for the devil.
BTW, Gorum would definitely have existed during the Shining Crusade. He's apparently one of those deities that popped up during the Age of Darkness. Specifically the first time men and orcs fought. The conflict with Tar-Baphon didn't happen until well after the Age of Darkness ended (The Whispering Tyrant unified the orcs as part of his army).
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That's a very awesome theory. It makes sense, even. TB still had a fully functional god-trap at Xin-Shalast, why go make another one? Because it had to be more powerful. I really like that train of thought.
Plus Aroden had already experienced that trap. It's hard to pull the exact same ploy twice in row. So the set-up was similar but the execution would have had to have been different.
So Aroden would have known the Tyrant was capable of building such a trap, but not how this new and more powerful one worked. Which would be a really good reason for him not to come down and fight according to the Tyrant's rules.
In any event, he is now a mythic lich and has mythic tiers in archmagus, according to mythic realms.
Actually, he doesn't have Archmage tiers. He has Wild Arcana, but that's a result of his mythic lich ranks rather than mythic tiers in Archmage. He seems to have swapped the tiers out when he made the jump to mythic lich.
Really? Arg. I can't find my book right now. :/
(It's also really, really weird to me.)
Okay, so after finally finding Mythic Realms and Mythic Adventures...
1) I was conflating Mythic Ranks and Mythic Tiers. Whoops.
2) After re-reading the Mythic Lich (and the difference between ranks and tiers) I'm not entirely sure being a Mythic Lich is better than being an Archmage, but it may actually be in the long term, or at least nearly (or maybe more or less) equal. Interesting.
3) It seems that both I and archmagi1 were correct - while the Cenotaph attracted Tar's attention "when he was still the mortal Wizard-King Tar-Baphon", it notes that "the Whispering Tyrant ... at the peak of his reign" meaning when he was an undead lich-ruler of half of Aviston.
4) Jatambe is still the most awesome - he has both a higher Intelligence and a higher Wisdom than either Tar-Baphon or Arazni! :)
(No, entry 4 has nothing to do with anything.)
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Jatambe thinks The Whispering Tyrant is a spoiled man-child with delusions of godhood. He'll get around to cuffing the youngun upside the head when he's good and done smoking his evening pipe.
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Jatambe thinks The Whispering Tyrant is a spoiled man-child with delusions of godhood. He'll get around to cuffing the youngun upside the head when he's good and done smoking his evening pipe.
Jatambe is probably the canon character I'm most interested in seeing more of. I would absolutely love to see an adventure path that deals with Ird, the Magaambya, and the Ten Magic Warriors. Everything from the pre-Earthfall Mwangi civilization through the Shory is just an area/time-period that I'm dying to read more about.
There have been a bunch of hints and tidbits dropped in various sources. I'm particularly fond of the theory that the masks of the Decemvirate are actually the masks of the 10 Magic Warriors (totally running with that in my home game).
EDIT: I love you guys, and agree with Aberrant Templar on Jatambe (though for me it's also a toss-up between him, the Peacock Spirit, Nex, and Dou-Bral).
Hey, guys, can someone help me with The Whispering Tyrant's hit points? I'm going wrong somewhere, and the other thread that's actually on this topic has not turned up anything. I'm mostly curious where I'm going wrong to correct myself in the future.
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I have it coming up as follows:
90 for HD (Should be D8's not D6's. Lich Template)
180 for CHA
40 for Mythic Toughness
80 for Tiers (Again, HD should be d8)
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390 hp, which is 2 off of the listed, aka a negligible +2 in his 20d8
If using the incorrect d6's, then i come up with 350 like you did in your linked post.
edit: I'm stupid, ignore the d8. thats for racial dice. No idea then, but the math works out right above.
I dunno. I'm 40 hp short when I add it up.
Maybe they added the Mythic Toughness bonus twice?
I have it coming up as follows:
90 for HD (Should be D8's not D6's. Lich Template)
180 for CHA
40 for Mythic Toughness
80 for Tiers (Again, HD should be d8)
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390 hp, which is 2 off of the listed, aka a negligible +2 in his 20d8If using the incorrect d6's, then i come up with 350 like you did in your linked post.
edit: I'm stupid, ignore the d8. thats for racial dice. No idea then, but the math works out right above.
Okay, cool. Good to know I'm not crazy...
EDIT: Well, okay, I'm crazy, but it's nice that I'm not just a failure at math. Or if I am, it's not on my own. :)
Made an interesting seeming post in that other thread that I though people might want to read, built off of quotes from Dungeons of Golarion that state pretty clearly that the Whispering Tyrant is, in fact, in Gallowspire.
Also worth noting that in Carrion Crown (Shadows of Gallowspire), Gildais' (the Whispering Tyrant's cowardly seneschal) "knowledge of a secret back-door" is crouched in as vague and "iffy" terms as possible right up until the last sentence.
"It's said...", "... supposedly...", and "... tales of the flaw..." are how it's put, until the last sentence:
"The threat of his master’s return might be enough to f lush Gildais from centuries of hiding, along with knowledge of his secret backdoor into and out of Tar-Baphon’s prison."
So, I'm presuming that it's supposed to be a bit up in the air whether he was ever in there or not, though I had previously taken it at face value due to the last.
Aroden is a deity, and if we're following planar rules, he can only be truely slain on his plane.
Those rules you're thinking of only apply to outsiders. There are NO rules regarding Gods in how they live or die. They are story events, not mechanical ones. Two other gods that no one really cares about died during Earthfall.
I'm not sure if that's what BlingerBunny is referring to, but if he is, it's not Pathfinder canon anyway - we have in-canon proof that outsiders can die away from their home realms (part four of the Council of Thieves AP, and Arazni's own unfortunate fate off the top of my head; beyond that, the only possible [redacted for spoilers]*, as explained in part 6 of Serpent's Skull*). Beyond that, we have suggestions that deities "get better" after they die, to a point, at least, from Wrath of the Righteous Bestiary entries (I think a few of the demon lords mentioned there, once killed, regenerate in their home region and can be killed "for real" only be killing them a second time within the span of a year from their first death, before having to repeat the "kill twice" cycle all over again? I haven't read these, though; take it with a grain of salt).
Quasi-edit: here is a description of what I mean. In-canon, at least, a [Council of Thieves spoiler]** who is killed will be reduced to a pile of
Beyond that, gods can't be killed without an
Anyway, point is, there are very specific circumstances.
[spoiler= **]In Council of Thieves, you fight a pit fiend who is, if you successfully kill him (for realsies; which means "twice in one battle"), returned to hell and simultaneously demoted into a pile of lemures. There's still living stuff there, but it'll never be that guy again.
So I've spent all night reading this discussion and now I'm totally digging The Whispering Tyrant dilemma. I'm currently running a session right now that's going to be spending alot of time in Ustalav. I was reading about the Lesser Seals and the Greater Seal and now I have to know. I really haven't done much research into the Seals but I would like to know from the experts: How would you go about breaking each one? I would really love to have the party tricked by the Whispering Way into releasing the seals and letting the Tyrant loose again into the world, with the campaign going on for many years as the party has to right their wrong and eventually vanquish the Tyrant for good.
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So I've spent all night reading this discussion and now I'm totally digging The Whispering Tyrant dilemma. I'm currently running a session right now that's going to be spending alot of time in Ustalav. I was reading about the Lesser Seals and the Greater Seal and now I have to know. I really haven't done much research into the Seals but I would like to know from the experts: How would you go about breaking each one? I would really love to have the party tricked by the Whispering Way into releasing the seals and letting the Tyrant loose again into the world, with the campaign going on for many years as the party has to right their wrong and eventually vanquish the Tyrant for good.
There's really not a ton of detail on the Seals. I would check out Hungry are the Dead, which involves the breaking of a Lesser Seal. That might give you some ideas.
If you're familiar with Carrion Crown, you could decide that those events already happened (in relative secrecy), and that the villain/mastermind of that Path lingers on (surviving or undead). This sort of "manipulate heroes into releasing the evil overlord" plot would be his bread-and-butter. Plus, it gives you another villainous personality for the PCs to interact with - the Tyrant is notoriously of few words.
(Confession - I'm a huge fangirl of Carrion Crown's villain.)
Questions or thoughts? ^_^
There's really not a ton of detail on the Seals. I would check out Hungry are the Dead, which involves the breaking of a Lesser Seal. That might give you some ideas.
If you're familiar with Carrion Crown, you could decide that those events already happened (in relative secrecy), and that the villain/mastermind of that Path lingers on (surviving or undead). This sort of "manipulate heroes into releasing the evil overlord" plot would be his bread-and-butter. Plus, it gives you another villainous personality for the PCs to interact with - the Tyrant is notoriously of few words.
(Confession - I'm a huge fangirl of Carrion Crown's villain.)
Questions or thoughts? ^_^
So I'm in the middle of reading through "Hungry are the Dead" and I find it absolutely amazing that in my campaign I have my players establishing a new Exploration and Adventure Guild within Falcon's Hollow. I might add the events of HatD to my ideas as it is REALLY convenient. I'm currently reading a summary of Carrion Crown and it's helping me better understand the Whispering Way. Thanks so much for the suggestions! I've got a ton of reading and research to do! I'll be keeping my eye on this discussion for new stuff on good ole' Tar-Baphon.
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So I'm in the middle of reading through "Hungry are the Dead" and I find it absolutely amazing that in my campaign I have my players establishing a new Exploration and Adventure Guild within Falcon's Hollow. I might add the events of HatD to my ideas as it is REALLY convenient. I'm currently reading a summary of Carrion Crown and it's helping me better understand the Whispering Way. Thanks so much for the suggestions! I've got a ton of reading and research to do! I'll be keeping my eye on this discussion for new stuff on good ole' Tar-Baphon.There's really not a ton of detail on the Seals. I would check out Hungry are the Dead, which involves the breaking of a Lesser Seal. That might give you some ideas.
If you're familiar with Carrion Crown, you could decide that those events already happened (in relative secrecy), and that the villain/mastermind of that Path lingers on (surviving or undead). This sort of "manipulate heroes into releasing the evil overlord" plot would be his bread-and-butter. Plus, it gives you another villainous personality for the PCs to interact with - the Tyrant is notoriously of few words.
(Confession - I'm a huge fangirl of Carrion Crown's villain.)
Questions or thoughts? ^_^
If you have any questions or ideas that need refining, feel free to post here or PM me. ^_^