Marathon Voter Season 7
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You want to take advantage of anything that can give you an edge in this competition. Looking at submissions from past years, one can tell that there is a lot of talent here, but only 32 slots to advance. You owe it to yourself to spend the time to proofread your item and compare it to published items to ensure that the wording, format, etc. are as close to correct as you can make 'em. Sure, sometimes errors slip through - sometimes even in published material - but there's a major difference between putting out several dozens of pages worth of work and putting out several hundred words of work (also sometimes errors pop up as a result of an editor making a change).
If I found out that I made it to the top 50 or so but had a few small errors in my item, I would be absolutely crushed, and would get to spend the rest of the year wondering if those mistakes were what cost me a slot. Look at this thread. Obviously, at least a few people care about formatting and editing to some degree. These are all people who are likely going to look at, compare, and ultimately vote on your items.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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I'll tell you straight up, I'll go for the better item over the better formatting, every single time. I don't even debate it.
And I vote a lot.
There were a few items that had good mojo last year that didn't come close to following the template or getting my vote. While I can understand being new to designing an item, the template is given in the rules and the PRD is free to compare with. If you can't take the time to at least make sure you have the proper template, I don't have the time to vote for you.
And I vote more.
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
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I was not suggesting anyone submit sloppy formatting and was essentially suggesting the same thing as Andrew, so offence to you Neil is unintentional . Even the best intent, multiple re-reads and edits can still see an error escape into a document. I would assume a writer always attempts to cover every error, to make life easier for his peers. Who would go out of their way to submit errors? It's also worth noting that the best ideas, the most original concepts will not necessarily be thought up and written by those with A grade English skills, you can learn to write, learning to be creative is much harder. Neil I think you may have made too much of the work amused in my other post, perhaps bemused would gave been a better choice, or confused. I understand the need for professionalism, and would be insulted it anyone suggested otherwise (being a professional) but just couldn't bring myself to vote down an item over formatting. Again I find it almost inconceivable that someone would knowingly want to submit flawed work, mistakes happen.
All that said, I actually agree with Andrew's perspective here, as well. There's no harm in up-voting an item with small mistakes in formatting and template use. The contest has a long track record of that. Since you'll (presumably) be comparing two items at a time again like last year, you should be able to elevate more on idea/mojo/creativity in most instances. But, when you've got two that come out equally strong, I don't think there's any issue with turning to the professional polish as a tiebreaker. And that's why everyone should strive for professionalism in their work. Always.
Exactly! Strive for professionalism and give us your best polished work and if it has the MOJO it will go to the top of the pile even if the comma is missing. We as voters can tell if you worked hard to present it with polish or if you slapped it together. Give us your best work. I agree with Neil's other post that to do any less is insulting to the voters, to the judges, and to your potential employer. Strive to get it right, learn from your mistakes and try not to repeat them but don't panic if you didn't capitalize Wondrous Item...of course if you spelled it wonderous you are on your own. :)
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If you want to be that nit pickey then you are barring people with lower education, learning difficulties, issues like dyslexia. Not to mention people who's first language isn't English. This is supposed to be an "Open call" not a "Call to everyone with a degree in English"
What is being looked for here is creativity.
How many errata are there for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook? How many times have you seen a rule that needed more information or a quick check online to see how others apply it?
I respectfully disagree with this comment.
While RPG superstar is a 'Open Call' contest, it is competition that is primarily designed to find new freelance talent for Paizo (who happens to be a publisher). Its not a creativity contest per se. Yeah, we should be enjoying the creative process and be able to offer something creative as designers. Why else would we be here and why else would Paizo want to hire us, but you need to have a strong command of the English language if you want to get your work published.
A child might be able to come up with a cool and creative idea but he would not possess the necessary language to communicate it properly. That is our job as designers and it is expected of us.
That's not to say you shouldn't enter the competition if you have learning difficulties or a poor grasp of grammar. You just need to understand if you are doing it more for yourself, to grow as a designer or to have fun, or if you are aiming for the big prize.
How can you ask others to check your work and still maintain the "don't talk about it" rule?
Privately. Several people on the boards have offered to look over an item and offer advice if it was sent to them through email or PM before the contest deadline. It's posting publicly that's the no-no.
Additionally, having friends/acquaintances you trust to be both proficient and discreet look over your work is good as well. If they can help you notice problems and correct them and be trusted not to blab about your item online, that's a good way to go.
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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If you want to be that nit pickey then you are barring people with lower education, learning difficulties, issues like dyslexia. Not to mention people who's first language isn't English. This is supposed to be an "Open call" not a "Call to everyone with a degree in English"
As a dyslexic, I dislike this. We live in a world which, fairly or not, requires people to perform at a high standard. This is a job audition. If I can't do the job, I shouldn't get it.
My job is to find a way to do this, whether it's having another set of eyes go over my submission, going over the item multiple times, reading aloud, or whatever. Others, being in this or another category, can do the same.
Besides, I have already won--
While I believe I have an item that will kick butt, I know I've written an item that is better than last year, and the year before, in part because of feedback both directed at me and general feedback. Reading the opinions here are part of that general feedback; details which help me improve.
So thank you to those of who have told me what bugs you here.
All the best and good luck,
Kerney
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Marathon Voter Season 7
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If you want to be that nit pickey then you are barring people with lower education, learning difficulties, issues like dyslexia. Not to mention people who's first language isn't English. This is supposed to be an "Open call" not a "Call to everyone with a degree in English"
What is being looked for here is creativity.
Jerett pretty much hit the nail on the head, but I wanted to really address the quoted sentiment here.
Part of what is being looked for here is creativity, but that is not the only thing. This contest is about finding talent that is ready, or very close, to become a freelance writer for Paizo. A creative freelancer who makes many errors, however small, can become a burden on the editing staff.
Moreover, people with lower education, learning difficulties, and English as a secondary language can still proofread their items, and will be expected to be able to produce content of a quality on par with - or above - people without those handicaps. Not just in the contest, but in the professional writing industry as well.
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I confess; I'm baffled by anybody objecting to style and formatting requirements.
Anything you post needs a stage of proofreading. Otherwise you're just saying "I don't care enough about this to make sure it doesn't have glaring errors."
Now, as far as I'm concerned, you can have your first draft smeared in lipstick on a sheet in Comic Sans font. You can write it in 1337speak. You can fill it with (PUT FORMATTING HERE) notes. Whatever works for you.
But once you're done writing, you're ready for proofing. and proofing just means going over the entire thing, correcting errors, and getting it ready to publish. It's straightforward; it's well-defined; it's nearly mechanical, if you actually know all the rules. If you see the value of both a spellchecker and forum BBCode tags, you should be able to see that formatting is A Good Thing (tm).
The only question is: do you know all the rules?
Some are easy. Some are hard. Some are extremely easy to check an existing reference for; some get mentioned frequently in the forums so regulars know 'em; some are obscure, nasty surprises. (Hint: the obscure, nasty surprises? The other voters won't know the right way either.)
But really, all it means is having a vague sense of what bits might need formatting, and an idea of where to check on what formatting is correct there. Poring over the forums will give you this really, really quickly.
If someone's showed good attention to formatting and proofreading but missed a couple of minor things, I'm not going to ding him for that. If someone's work is riddled with typos and style errors, though, I know for a fact that he didn't put a whole lot of effort into not making any mistakes. And if I see somebody who's clearly dotted every i and crossed every t, I go, "Hey, this guy really knows what he's doing."
By your own logic, a child could come up with an average idea, get their parents to trim the English and still win, do you think they would be up to the task if they won? Should we all start hiring professional editors to check our work?I agree you need a certain standard of English but we are not talking about creating sentences that make sense here, we are talking the odd missing full stop, capital letter type of errors that any editor worth their salt would pick up and...
No, I do not believe that a child (or anyone for that matter) who relied too much on others peoples skills (even written skills) would advance through to the end of the competition and be able to deliver a manuscript. Maybe, they might get through the first round, but certainly not the latter ones.
Creativity is surely important, maybe the most important one at that, however, you have to be able to communicate these ideas consistently and clearly in a format desired by your client.
Small errors do count in a competition. Everybody makes grammatical mistakes. We are all humans after all, but we need to do our best to eliminate these during a writing competition. With so many people looking for their break, why would you not strive to eliminate any reason that your item might not get voted into the next round?
I don't personally feel that it is up to Paizo to tell me how good my English has to be. It is up to me to showcase my best work and skills in the hope that I can convince the judges that I can deliver an entertaining manuscript that will make them money.
Honestly I think many of the people being more hard-assed about this are being inane... if it was really that big of a deal, Paizo would simply disqualify any entry that lacked the correct formating in all of these areas... given that they do not... and given that items with these kinds of minor errors made it through to the finals every year, prior to public voting... shows that the judges don't necessarily take them that seriously... and If the judges don't I don't see why we should... Sure use them as tie-breaker between otherwise equal items, but to refuse to vote for an item just because of an omitted comma or cap is stupid.
Actually, this whole thread is kind of ironic in light of how they've decided not to disqualify items that blatantly broke the rules in terms of formatting.
I'm guessing there were some good items in there they didn't want to disqualify, but that's just a guess.
In any event, my opinion is that formatting, like spelling, ideas, correct math and everything else is just one aspect of what makes an item worthy, and as has been said so many times, if someone is a real superstar they might very well break any and all of the rules and still succeed.
If :)
Well, it's a very specific exception to the disqualification rules. If you used the Ultimate Equipment format, they'll give it a pass. If you screwed that up, you're still gone.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Locke1520
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Actually, this whole thread is kind of ironic in light of how they've decided not to disqualify items that blatantly broke the rules in terms of formatting.
I'm guessing there were some good items in there they didn't want to disqualify, but that's just a guess.
In any event, my opinion is that formatting, like spelling, ideas, correct math and everything else is just one aspect of what makes an item worthy, and as has been said so many times, if someone is a real superstar they might very well break any and all of the rules and still succeed.
If :)
I imagine it may also have been an ongoing discussion since the release of Ultimate Magic. I doubt they decided to play favorites but if there were a significant number entries following the UM format it may have had an effect the outcome of those discussions.
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
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I don't personally feel that it is up to Paizo to tell me how good my English has to be. It is up to me to showcase my best work and skills in the hope that I can convince the judges that I can deliver an entertaining manuscript that will make them money.
It is if they're the ones paying you to write for them, talent or no.
It has been said many times before: this is not purely a showcase of talent or creativity, although that is one of the contributing factors in winning.
The ability and willingness to follow the proscribed rules is as important as anything else. Minor mistakes are at least overlook-able and at best a teaching/learning opportunity. Blatant disregard of, and antipathy toward, the contest or job's requirements are not desirable traits.
This is a job interview disguised as a contest. It would behoove everyone to remember that.
Actually, this whole thread is kind of ironic in light of how they've decided not to disqualify items that blatantly broke the rules in terms of formatting.
I'm guessing there were some good items in there they didn't want to disqualify, but that's just a guess.
In any event, my opinion is that formatting, like spelling, ideas, correct math and everything else is just one aspect of what makes an item worthy, and as has been said so many times, if someone is a real superstar they might very well break any and all of the rules and still succeed.
If :)
Which template uses fewer words? What will happen if somebody submits an item that would have been over word count with the core Rulebook format, but not with the Ultimate Equipment one?
Which template uses fewer words? What will happen if somebody submits an item that would have been over word count with the core Rulebook format, but not with the Ultimate Equipment one?
That's a fair question. Give me a second or two to check on that.
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I don't personally feel that it is up to Paizo to tell me how good my English has to be. It is up to me to showcase my best work and skills in the hope that I can convince the judges that I can deliver an entertaining manuscript that will make them money.It is if they're the ones paying you to write for them, talent or no.
It has been said many times before: this is not purely a showcase of talent or creativity, although that is one of the contributing factors in winning.
The ability and willingness to follow the proscribed rules is as important as anything else. Minor mistakes are at least overlook-able and at best a teaching/learning opportunity. Blatant disregard of, and antipathy toward, the contest or job's requirements are not desirable traits.
This is a job interview disguised as a contest. It would behoove everyone to remember that.
I agree completely. What I meant is, you shouldn't need to be told what level of quality is expected of you. Your best work is expected and that should go without saying.
OK, you would save yourself a single word if you don't forget to add the slot descriptor, three words if you do. Hopefully any item that is right up against it with the word count could still be disqualified if the use the new format.
Heheh
My point was only that we're quibbling about things like commas in numbers, meanwhile the people actually running the contest have decided that it doesn't matter if people blatantly break the rules. After all:
PRESENTATION: Use the presentation for magic items found in the Wondrous Items section of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (page 496) ...
[snip]
NOTE: You must use the above format from the Core Rulebook, not the graphical magic item format used in Ultimate Equipment.
Granted, I do agree presentation is important. After all, this is the equivalent of a job interview. I was just amused at the contrast between the two events :)
I am amazed at the consistency with which the "minor" errors are crossing my path. I'd guess 1 in 3...
Oh, so it's working now? It was badly broken before...
(looks)
Cool!
That's not really going to be the issue most of the time. What has happened most often is that I'm faced with two items of fairly close in appeal, and the person who took the effort to police the work of minor errors is going to get my nod.If something is utterly outstanding in terms of idea, and there are a handful of minor errors, the errors will not undercut it, and I'll vote for it.
Yeah, someone else in this thread said that too:
Two good items, where one is better formatted than the other, the better formatted one will win (because I am then picking between talent AND a careful writer, and talent AND someone who is less careful, and therefore the difference is the care they've taken to perfect the entry).
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Wondrous vs. Wonderous
One 'minor' error that I'm seeing a lot is not using the proper template. I mean, it's given to competitors right there in the rules, complete with proper bbcode formatting. When I see an item without it, I know that the person either didn't read the rules completely (which isn't good), or they were careless enough to remove the formatting so they could read it easier and not add it back in (which is also bad).
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Since the voting started my tolerance for minor errors has increased dramatically, as I'm too busy noticing the incredibly glaring major errors that many items are sporting.
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I'm not telling anyone how to vote, but SKR posted somewhere that they aren't going to officially ding anyone for using the UE item format.
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Something I've tried to keep in mind when voting between two evenly-ish matched items is "Which developer do I think will do better creating a bestiary entry in Round 2?" Whether or not a developer-to-be might create a new wondrous item for a module or AP installment isn't definite, but they must know Monsters 101. That's helped me cast a deciding vote easier and think more positively about the pre-Cull voting overall.
I think a fair amount of entrants didn't use the BB code because they don't know what it is and are not comfortable using it. They are afraid they will jack up their entry if they use it wrong.
I don't count it against them.
I think a fair amount of entrants didn't use the BB code because they don't know what it is and are not comfortable using it. They are afraid they will jack up their entry if they use it wrong.
I don't count it against them.
I wish I could agree with this statement, however with the potential payoff inherent to this contest, this is like saying "I did not bring a printed copy of my resume to this job interview because I was not comfortable using a printer, but just let me explain ok?"
Honestly if two items are equal in quality and one has the proper formatting while the other does not, I will vote for the properly formatted one.
This is a large opportunity for anyone who wishes to break into the gaming publishing industry and I feel like it should be respected.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
aka FaxCelestis
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Misspelled spell names get me. Its spelled "prestidigitation", "lucubration", and "expeditious". No excuse: the correct spellings are right there in the SRD, and an incorrect spell spelling could point a crafter or wielder at the incorrect spell to determine effects or crafting requirements.
Misspelled spell names get me. Its spelled "prestidigitation", "lucubration", and "expeditious". No excuse: the correct spellings are right there in the SRD...
This bugs me especially when the author provides a link to the SRD spell in his stat block.
It is like handing in a resumé for a job helping others to write their resumes and spelling it "resuméay".