As the title implies I have never played a rouge before, but am considering it strongly if the barbarian I'm currently playing dies.
I have read a lot about rouges being very underpowered in pathfinder, and was curious as to the boards take on that. Also I need a little help in fleshing out my concept. I am aiming to have a kinda con artist type guy that is also able to be the trap monkey since they get lots of skills I figured that would be possible. I def want very high slieght of hand, bluff, perception, and what ever skill one would use to make false documents. I also plan at least one level dip at low levels to gain access to detect magic cantrip and spellcraft skill. So suggestions on talents to take items archtypes triats etc would be nice, and which class to dip to get spellcraft and detect magic.
You sound like you want an archeologist to me.
Since it is your first time: Rogue
Other than that, you will see people on here who will scream at you to ignore the rogue and play a bard, alchemist or anything else that has overlap with a rogue's abilities. There's nothing wrong with this but if you want to play a rogue, then play a rogue.
That being said, it's up to you. The primary "underpowered" argument tends to rear its head around levels 8 and higher, when you are much more likely to encounter enemies that are immune to flanking, Precision damage (sneak attack) and/or Critical hits. This tends to lessen the rogue's damage output unless you really think outside the box and gear yourself well.
In an intrigue-heavy campaign (which it sounds like you're gearing up for), you should be fine. I'd be very careful, however, dipping into another 3/4 or 1/2 BAB class to get cantrips/spellcraft. You may want to consider trying to do this in other ways, such as by race choice, rogue talent, feat selection, etc.
Actually there is a rogue talent that gives you a cantrip 3 times perday.
My suggestion is to look out for trap talents. The cantrip one is okay, but there are lots of them that are usable only once per day. Avoid those, unless the effect is really big.
I looked at that and unless I pair in with a trait then it wouldn't cover spellcraft, but will keep it in mind if I cant find a better way.
Since it is your first time: Rogue
Other than that, you will see people on here who will scream at you to ignore the rogue and play a bard, alchemist or anything else that has overlap with a rogue's abilities. There's nothing wrong with this but if you want to play a rogue, then play a rogue.
That being said, it's up to you. The primary "underpowered" argument tends to rear its head around levels 8 and higher, when you are much more likely to encounter enemies that are immune to flanking, Precision damage (sneak attack) and/or Critical hits. This tends to lessen the rogue's damage output unless you really think outside the box and gear yourself well.
In an intrigue-heavy campaign (which it sounds like you're gearing up for), you should be fine. I'd be very careful, however, dipping into another 3/4 or 1/2 BAB class to get cantrips/spellcraft. You may want to consider trying to do this in other ways, such as by race choice, rogue talent, feat selection, etc.
I was hopping by sticking with pure dex and int, and doing the finnsse and agile weapon route I would have to worry about bab as much. Yes the ap we are in seems very urban based so social skills are at a bonus for sure.
False documents are covered by the Linguistics skill, which also gives you an extra free language for every rank you take. It's a very good skill to have if you plan on being the party face, because not everyone speaks Common, and sometimes DMs will give you bonus points in diplomatic relations if you can speak someone's native tongue rather than just relying on Common.
As a rogue you should also look at getting at least a few ranks in Use Magic Device so that you can use wands and the like.
Oh, and I'd see if your DM will let you choose Ninja and just call it a rogue. It really is a better class in almost every regard.
Edit: Or Archaeologist, like MrSin said. Really nice Bard archetype, that one.
Thank you wasn't sure what skill covered that any suggestion for the insane amount of languages I'll know?
And are there any rouge building guides out there? I looked in the guide to guides and only saw one.
OP, are you playing in a particular Adventure Path? Is this PFS? If not, what sort of campaign/module/etc are you playing in? What level? How many party members? What are they currently playing, as their PCs? Does your GM have any particular rules/limitations that they enforce?
Any and all of this will help folks give you advice about your character.
EDIT: Annnnnnnnd I just saw your other thread, about your DM. Yeah, this is not going to end well.
Also, what PF books are you allowed/not allowed to pull from. If this is a home-brew game, are you allowed to pull from any other sources?
As the title implies I have never played a rouge before, but am considering it strongly if the barbarian I'm currently playing dies.
I have read a lot about rouges being very underpowered in pathfinder, and was curious as to the boards take on that. Also I need a little help in fleshing out my concept. I am aiming to have a kinda con artist type guy that is also able to be the trap monkey since they get lots of skills I figured that would be possible. I def want very high slieght of hand, bluff, perception, and what ever skill one would use to make false documents. I also plan at least one level dip at low levels to gain access to detect magic cantrip and spellcraft skill. So suggestions on talents to take items archtypes triats etc would be nice, and which class to dip to get spellcraft and detect magic.
1) Your description sounds more like a bard.
2) I don't find rogue underpowered so much as I find them unplayable. The rogue plays like an NPC class. You can make it work, but chances are you could make commoner, warrior, and adept work too.
OP, are you playing in a particular Adventure Path? Is this PFS? If not, what sort of campaign/module/etc are you playing in? What level? How many party members? What are they currently playing, as their PCs? Does your GM have any particular rules/limitations that they enforce?
Any and all of this will help folks give you advice about your character.
EDIT: Annnnnnnnd I just saw your other thread, about your DM. Yeah, this is not going to end well.
Yeah we are playing age of worms, and yeah that situation is kinda crappy I like playing but makes me feel any time I invest is wasted.
Also, what PF books are you allowed/not allowed to pull from. If this is a home-brew game, are you allowed to pull from any other sources?
Anything paizo produced.
And are there any rouge building guides out there? I looked in the guide to guides and only saw one.You might find something buried here.
Thanks I'll look through it.
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Since it is your first time: Rogue
And here we thought he was going to be an expert with Makeup and play a Rouge...must be a bard prestige class?
Since it is your first time: RogueAnd here we thought he was going to be an expert with Makeup and play a Rouge...must be a bard prestige class?
You know I always get my hopes up its about fashion and looking good...
And here we thought he was going to be an expert with Makeup and play a Rouge...must be a bard prestige class?
Yeah, I was going to recommend a dip in the Avon Lady class. Synnergizes well with rouge class.
I've been playing a TWF, DEX based rogue (my first), and having a great time. He's up to level 7 now, so my experience is a little limited. One thing about a DEX based rogue is that if you're fighting an enemy you can't sneak attack, it can be frustrating not helping out much in the combat. If your party is good about helping you get sneak attack (flanking or spells like grease and glitterdust) you'll be fine the rest of the time, although still not the primary damage dealer.
It can be a lot of fun being "rogue-ish". It's true that you don't have to be a Rogue to act like one, so consider how important the class and combat effectiveness is to you.
As for the cantrips and spellcraft, if that's important to you then I would suggest the Minor Magic talent and a trait before a class dip to avoid the BAB hit. The Minor and Major Magic talents also lead to the Dispelling Attack Talent which is really good.
Ok thanks for the advice it should help a lot any other ideas places send them my way.
As a heads up, a lot of the simpler and lower level magics are easily replicated by UMD and magic items. Minor magic is a pretty weak talent outside of being used as a prereq.
A one level dip in Diviner Wizard is fruitful.
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If you're going Bluff and Linguistics, remember-- you get a +10 bonus to Bluff checks if you have "evidence" that your story is true. And if you successfully forge a document, that counts as "evidence". With enough forethought, this means you can effectively grant yourself a party full of Aid Another bonuses (and that INT helps your Bluff checks more than CHA does).
As for combat, all I can say is: flank. Flank early and often. Acrobatics will help, but if you have to eat an AoO, do it. Your party will appreciate it, and so will you when you get your Sneak Attack dice on your entire full attack.
As a heads up, a lot of the simpler and lower level magics are easily replicated by UMD and magic items. Minor magic is a pretty weak talent outside of being used as a prereq.
This is a good point, and I would choose this route as long as you're ok with not being consistent at low levels. Once you get to mid levels (with a decent Cha and a circlet of persuasion) you'll be able to use a wand with no chance of failure.
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I have read a lot about rouges being very underpowered in pathfinder, and was curious as to the boards take on that. Also I need a little help in fleshing out my concept. I am aiming to have a kinda con artist type guy that is also able to be the trap monkey since they get lots of skills I figured that would be possible. I def want very high slieght of hand, bluff, perception, and what ever skill one would use to make false documents. I also plan at least one level dip at low levels to gain access to detect magic cantrip and spellcraft skill. So suggestions on talents to take items archtypes triats etc would be nice, and which class to dip to get spellcraft and detect magic.
1.)I disagree that rogues are underpowered (yes, I realize all the problems with rogues, but I have had a lot of experience with playing, playing with, and running for rogues, and they have been pretty effective). I do however, acknowledge that a bard can make a pretty good rogue.
2.)For this concept, a rogue/wizard or rogue/magus could work fairly well by relying on INT. If your GM allows the ruling that SLA's are spells for prerequisites, a diviner/rogue can enter Arcane Trickster prestige class at level 5 and get some pretty awesome abilities (Ranged Legerdemain is really fun for roleplaying).
3.)If you want to play a bard who calls himself a rogue, then the Archaeologist archetype is for you. Its a rogue version of a bard.
As a heads up, a lot of the simpler and lower level magics are easily replicated by UMD and magic items. Minor magic is a pretty weak talent outside of being used as a prereq.
This is a rather good point. Just going to point out that having the 1st level SLA vanish is a bit more useful than a wand of it, because it lasts longer, is cheaper (which admittedly a minor issue), and has better action economy.
Oh, and I'd see if your DM will let you choose Ninja and just call it a rogue. It really is a better class in almost every regard.
Ninjas ARE Rogues. However, they do not have trap finding. Watch out for the archtypes that trade out trap finding.
For guides, there are five that I know of:
Guide to the guides:
Rogue:
- kcmorris's Guide to the Rogue
- kjb200's Update to Rogue Eidolon's Guide to the Rogue
- Bravo's Knife Master Scout Guide
- Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues
Ninja:
- Death from the Shadow: A Guide to the Ninja by Joseph Bucceri
Check out Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues first.
For a dip, check out the Witch. You get spells for UMD avoidance, one of which is Cure Light Wounds. You get a Hex, and can get more with the feat Extra Hex. You get a familiar, which can give extra actions for you, and also +3 to a single skill for a number of skills or +4 initiative, or other stuff.
As others have said, Rogues are not OP, but only if you are trying for DPS. If you are playing for other reasons, they can be great. That's why I am playing a Ninja now.
/cevah