Slayer VS Guide (Ranger Archetype)
Seems like the slayer sacrifices damage for the potential of utility. Correct? Because Guide gets twice as much attack and damage bonus of "favored target".
I'm having a hard time of seeing the Slayer as more effective at "killing one specific target" than a Guide, or a Ninja.
I didn't math-hammer anything, just took a look at numbers as presented. Anyone have insight/experience in playing murderer type characters?
Slayer VS Guide (Ranger Archetype)
Seems like the slayer sacrifices damage for the potential of utility.
Correct? Because Guide gets double the damage bonus of favored target.I'm having a hard time of seeing the Slayer as more effective at "killing one specific target" than a Guide, or a Ninja.
I didn't math-hammer anything, just took a look at numbers as presented. Anyone have insight/experience in playing murderer type characters?
Having played a Guide NPC who sometimes goes with the party in Jade Regent and seen a Guide PC in my party in PFS, Guide can easily run out of Focus. From 1st through 3rd, for instance, it's only once a day.
Slayer VS Guide (Ranger Archetype)
Seems like the slayer sacrifices damage for the potential of utility. Correct? Because Guide gets twice as much attack and damage bonus of "favored target".
I'm having a hard time of seeing the Slayer as more effective at "killing one specific target" than a Guide, or a Ninja.
I didn't math-hammer anything, just took a look at numbers as presented. Anyone have insight/experience in playing murderer type characters?
Guides get their bonus on a per enemy basis. At 10th that means 4 enemies per day you get a bonus against. The Slayer gets his bonus against all of them. Till the Guide gets more uses, the Slayer is much better on a day to day basis.
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Remember, there is a difference between
1) "I think skill X is iconic and essential for this class," and
2) "I think the class could find skill X useful in some circumstances."
The first translates to "the class should have skill X as a class skill."
The second translates to "skill X isn't an essential part of this class concept," so if you want it as a class skill you can choose to take a trait for that, or take Skill Focus in it.
UMD is kind of in the middle here; for balance let's call it #2.
Diplomacy is essential for the Slayer class. They need it for gather information, for gaining access to targets, and for coordinating with other characters. Also, of course, for making optimal use of Betrayer. :) The Slayer isn't a traditional kind of "face" character but if they are in any way more assassinate-y than a Rogue, they ought to share Diplomacy as a class skill. No fancy rerolls, no adjusting more than one attitudes, just basic, vanilla skill bonuses to do their job. I cannot imagine how a slayer would function in an urban environment without this skill.
RogueEidolon: I'll agree that 20th level isn't as important as 1st level, but also note that all the levels are pretty important. A level 12 only comparison doesn't do justice to either 1-7 or 15-20, for instance. And that's a lot of levels to not be looking at. I'd be happy to join you in calling for high end swashbuckler nerfs, if not for the fact that I don't have time to also playtest the swash and keep track of that thread too. But hey, for whatever it's worth, assuming that your logic holds water, keep fighting the good fight. I've played characters to 20 before, so it matters to me.
As for diplo, bluff replaces most uses of it. Just not the basic gather information task. An assassin using diplomacy would probably leave behind way more clues in an urban environment than one bluffing his way by (especially coupled with disguise).
Mage Slayer: If his Favored Target possesses spells or spell-like abilities, the Slayer gains a +1 to damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every four Slayer levels obtained.
Dark Arts Defense: When forced to make a saving throw by his Favored Target that is the result of a spell or spell-like ability, the Slayer gains his Favored Target bonus as an insight bonus. Prerequisite: Mage Slayer
Disruptive Strike: A Slayer as an immediate action when his Favored Target attempts to cast a spell or spell-like ability may fire a ranged weapon that is in hand and loaded at his Favored Target or make a single melee attack. A Slayer with the Quick Draw feat may draw a weapon as part of this action. Must be 6th level to select this talent.
Pinned Down: A Slayer when using a Ranged Weapon may deliberately forgo his first attack in a full attack to cause his Favored Target to be flatfooted till the end of his turn.
Close Range: A Slayer, for the purposes of flanking, treats ranged weapons as melee.
The language could be cleaned up on some of these, but I just really want the braintrain to start steaming.
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Killer Memory
When a Slayer with this talent deals Sneak Attack damage to his Favored Target, for the next round he may deal Sneak Attack damage against that target even if the target is not flanked or denied Dex bonus to AC.
Talent idea. This way if a Slayer gets the jump on a target, and continues to go after that target and hit, he continues getting that SA bonus. Alternatively, he has a flanking ally for one round, the following rounds that ally can move on to other targets without denying use of SA. This allows the Slayer to do his job of slaying one target, without allowing him to have "always on" sneak attack, as he both has to hit, and has to set it up again on the next target.
EDIT: Changed to include Favored Target as per Scavion's excellent suggestion.
Killer Memory
When a Slayer with this talent deals Sneak Attack damage to a target, for the next round he may deal Sneak Attack damage against that target even if the target is not flanked or denied Dex bonus to AC.Talent idea. This way if a Slayer gets the jump on a target, and continues to go after that target and hit, he continues getting that SA bonus. Alternatively, he has a flanking ally for one round, the following rounds that ally can move on to other targets without denying use of SA. This allows the Slayer to do his job of slaying one target, without allowing him to have "always on" sneak attack, as he both has to hit, and has to set it up again on the next target.
Make sure its tied to Favored Target, we lack synergy between the two. And they are the Slayer's biggest class features.
Edit: Thankee =)
RogueEidolon: I'll agree that 20th level isn't as important as 1st level, but also note that all the levels are pretty important. A level 12 only comparison doesn't do justice to either 1-7 or 15-20, for instance. And that's a lot of levels to not be looking at. I'd be happy to join you in calling for high end swashbuckler nerfs, if not for the fact that I don't have time to also playtest the swash and keep track of that thread too. But hey, for whatever it's worth, assuming that your logic holds water, keep fighting the good fight. I've played characters to 20 before, so it matters to me.
Cheers, makes sense to me! I'll keep on trying, but swash is getting more and more concerning with every post (about an hour ago, SRM said he plans to either make sure Swash Weapon Training works on Gloves of Dueling or just make another Gloves of Dueling for Swash, eroding away one of the melee Fighter's last few edges). Anyway, no more Swash stuff here with Slayer.
I'd be happy to try to look at 19 and 20, but we'll have to compare the capstone abilities at that point, which includes a +4 insight bonus to accuracy and a possible knockout blow in the surprise round for the Slayer and some cool DR and an amazing increased multiplier for the Fighter (both of them auto-confirm). For what it's worth, I think the Fighter does better here, but how many people's games get as high level as yours and (occasionally) mine and see these powers?
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@Rogue Eidolon — You earlier mentioned switch-hitting being a bad idea; what do you see as the "primary", "default", or otherwise relatively optimized slayer build? Approximations are fine.
Part of me wonders whether it would end up being a STR build that spends a feat on heavy armor and functions as a frontliner (but with skills). But seems kinda wrong.
@Rogue Eidolon — You earlier mentioned switch-hitting being a bad idea; what do you see as the "primary", "default", or otherwise relatively optimized slayer build? Approximations are fine.
Part of me wonders whether it would end up being a STR build that spends a feat on heavy armor and functions as a frontliner (but with skills). But seems kinda wrong.
I'm sure a switch-hitter build is good. They're very popular. I've personally never gotten it to work better than a pure build. They've not been bad for me, per se, just unfocused and so obviously not keeping up with one or the other.
So far Tiffany just goes front-line in light armor, and I'm considering Mithral Breastplate as her next armor upgrade. Pure archer is also pretty legit, though Sneak Attack is going to be pretty tough to get without party assistance.
Is there a chance we could see new combat styles just for the stalker?
Feint Style maybe?
2nd level: Improved Feint, Skill Focus (Bluff), Deceitful, Feint Partner/Wave Strike
6th Level: Greater Feint, Two Weapon Feint
10th Level: Improved Two Weapon Feint, Improved Feint partner?(Maybe write a new feat?)I can't really think of any others, but I like that one. Oh! wait,
Darkness Style
2nd Level: Stealthy, Blind Fight, Moonlight Stalker, Skill Focus (Stealth)
6th Level: Moonlight Stalker Feint, Hellcat Stealth
10th Level: Moonlight Stalker Master, Improved Blind FightAnd while I'm at it
Mobile Style (I recommend a rename)
2nd Level: Piranha Strike, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Fleet?
6th Level: Spring Attack, WInd Stance
10th Level: Lightning Stance, Combat Reflexes? (I got nothin, write a new feat maybe?)I'm not saying these are perfect, but it's a nice starting point.... they keep coming to me now
Underhanded Style
2nd Level: Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Catch Off-Guard, Improved Dirty Trick, Betrayer
6th level: Greater Dirty Trick, Quick Dirty Trick
10th Level: Improvised Weapon Mastery, These all kind of start to run out of good stuff at the end....I'm sure others could improve these or come up with their own. It seems like a neat way to avoid just copying the ranger and giving more Slayer type options. (An Infiltrator style would be cool, maybe co-opt betrayer for it)
i dont recommend lightning stance, personally (since it requires a double move or withdraw to activate), but hey, every style needs a trap option.
actually, mobile style might be better off with dodge/mobility/spring attack/whirlwind attack/wind stance/step up/following step/step up and strike (not listed in any particular order), so it stays with being mobile, instead of being a mobile-dex style.
Sorry to be a +1er, but limited time at the mo':
+1 to these Slayer Combat Styles as a concept.
+1 to a feeling that the Slayer doesn't have enough unique stuff to distance it from just being a straight Ranger/Rogue mashup.
+1 to Sean's post on iconic class skills.
+1 to new Talent ideas, though they skirt the line between archetype abilities and new Talents.
i dont recommend lightning stance, personally (since it requires a double move or withdraw to activate), but hey, every style needs a trap option.
actually, mobile style might be better off with dodge/mobility/spring attack/whirlwind attack/wind stance/step up/following step/step up and strike (not listed in any particular order), so it stays with being mobile, instead of being a mobile-dex style.
Hey, that slayer's gotta get outta there after they kill their target right? I can't believe I didn't think of the step up feats though. I avoided actually putting whirlwind in there since it's not overly mobile, but you'd still have a good chance at qualifying regularly if you wanted to. But I take it you wouldn't want to add Weapon Finesse to the mobile style then?
Looking back over them, I wonder if some of the options shouldn't move down a peg. A ranger can get Improved Precise Shot at level 6 after all. Maybe make Improved Blind Fight level 6 and add the greater version to level 10.
Speaking of weapon finesse, I wanted some sort of dagger style, but it seems like it would be a mish mash: Finesse, Piranha Strike, TWF. But it could be cool if there are some new nifty dagger feats introduced (or some I don't know about, that's not really my thing).
Eidolon: A good compromise might be ignoring capstones, but analyze levels 1-19, simply because level twenty doubles the variables or so and only for one level of play.
As for "default" options for the Slayer, the most obvious route is THFer trying to get sneak attacks. You get less SA than the rogue, but better BAB and "free" TWFing feats. With two static sources of bonus damage, and no easy access to natural attacks, TWF is kind of everyone's first thought as they come at the class.
I can attest (especially with the last revision) that it doesn't make a shabby archer either.
There really does need to be some synergy built in between Sneak Attack and Favored Target.
maybe a variant on the rogue's Opportunist ability?
Maybe your Favored Target is considered flanked as long as you and another ally are adjacent to them (not necessarily on opposite sides)?
Maybe, if your favored target is Shaken, you get Sneak Attack (kind of a free Shatter Defenses)?
Or, critical hits against your Favored Target take Sneak Attack damage?
Also, perhaps Slayer's Advance should additionally work like Skirmish, allowing you to sneak attack a target you've moved more than 10 ft. to reach?
Time to play with Builds!
No comparison here, just going to theorycraft the Slayer through its paces. Level 12 is ALWAYS my benchmark, because some builds don't come together fully until 10-11, and the very early levels are usually quite deceptive. Its also a level where WBL allows a few more interesting options. So, here we go.
Human Slayer lvl 12 (20pt)
Str:23 (+2 race, +3 levels, +2 belt)
Dex:16 (+2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
H. Power Attack
1. EWP Sawtooth Sabre
2. Combat Style (TWF): Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Weapon Focus (Sawtooth Sabre)
4. Trap-Finding
5. Iron Will
6. Combat Style (TWF): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Double Slice
8. Combat Trick (Lunge)
9. Improved Critical (Sawtooth Sabre)
10. Combat Style (TWF) : Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Great Fortitude
12. Evasion
Skills:
Stealth:+18
Survival:+15 (+21 when tracking)
Intimidate:+15
Bluff:+15
Disable Device:+18
Perception:+15
Acrobatics:+18
Gear:
+2 belt of physical perfection
TWO - +3 Sawtooth Sabres
Headband of Ninjitsu
Cloak of Resistance +3
+3 Mithral Breastplate
Featherstep Slippers
+2 RoP
+2 AoNA
Bracers of Falcon's Aim
+2 Composite Longbow (+6)
DEFENSES:
HP: 118
AC: 26 (10, +3 dex, +9 armor, +2 ring, +2 amulet)
Fort: +16 Ref: +14 Will: +9
Evasion
OFFENSE:
Attack Bonus:+16 (+12 BAB, +6 str, +3 weapons, -4 power attack, -2 TWF, +1 weapon focus)
Favored Target Attack Bonus: +19
Full Attack (FT): +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 1d8+20 (17-20/x2) (+3 FT, +3 weapons, +6 str, +8 power attack)
DPR on Favored Target Full Attack vs CR average AC of 28: 58.93
This is actually pretty bad, so lets try without power attack
TWF Without power attack (FT): +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 1d8+12 (17-20/x2)
DPR: 62.36
So no power attack is better
So, lets remove power attack, move Great Fort as a feat down to swap in Critical Focus.
TWF, no power attack, (FT), with crit focus DPR:
65.24
Okay, so that is a little better... not great really, the lack of two-weapon rend really hurts here. I may have to re-adjust and work on a finesse build instead, but that comes later.
So, Sneak attack. Here is where we make up ground. When flanking, the slayer's attack bonuses shoot up by +4 (+2 flanking, +2 headband of ninjitsu). TWF bonuses are then +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17
Sneak attack adds 4d6 damage per hit (+14 average)
So, total DPR on a full attack with flank, no power attack, critical focus headband of ninjitsu etc.
DPR: 148.24
So overall pretty good. Time to try some other things to see if we can squeeze more out of this class.
So that wasn't bad. Not great either. Lets try different approach with a two-handed slayer. I think TWF is once again proving to be a bit of a wash... its not bad, and the DPR with a flank is pretty good, but I think Two-handed smashing will free up some feats and be a bit more consistent outside of sneak attacks.
For symmetry's sake, I will use another Human here, though I would prefer a dwarf.
Human Slayer lvl 12 (20pt)
Str:24 (+2 race, +3 levels, +2 belt)
Dex:14 (+2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
H. Bludgeoner
1. Weapon Focus (Earth Breaker)
2. Combat Style (Two handed):Power Attack
3. Enforcer
4. Trap-Finding
5. Sap Adept
6. Combat Style (Two-Handed):Furious Focus
7. Dazzling Display
8. Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9. Sap Master
10. Combat Style (Two-Handed):Dreadful Carnage
11. Iron Will
12. Evasion
Skills:
Stealth:+17
Survival:+15 (+21 when tracking)
Intimidate:+19
Bluff:+19
Disable Device:+17
Perception:+15
Acrobatics:+17
Gear:
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 Earthbreaker
Headband of Ninjitsu
Cloak of Resistance +3
+3 Mithral Breastplate
Featherstep Slippers
+2 RoP
+2 AoNA
Bracers of Falcon's Aim
Circlet of Persuasion
+2 Composite Longbow (+6)
DEFENSES:
HP: 118
AC: 25 (10, +2 dex, +9 armor, +2 ring, +2 amulet)
Fort: +14 Ref: +13 Will: +9
Evasion
OFFENSE:
Attack Bonus:+19 (+12 BAB, +7 str, +3 weapon, -4 power attack, +1 weapon focus)
Favored Target Attack Bonus: +22
Full Attack, FT, Power Attack: +26/+17/+12 2d6+28 (+12 power attack, +10 str, +3 weapon, +3 FT)
Tactics: Flank and kill, you can also intimidate as an opener with Dazzling display, or wait for a kill to get dreadful carnage. In addition, when non-lethal damage is a good option, you can use enforcer to activate shatter defenses and use sap master. Lots of options.
So, Regular Full attack DPR with FT: 65.16
Flanking Full Attack DPR with FT: 109.88 .95, .7, .45
Flanking Full Attack Non-lethal DPR: 126.68
Full Attack Non-lethal DPR on Shattered Target: 172.88
So the non-sneak attack DPR is disturbingly close to the TWF slayer, and the TWF slayer can do a lot more damage on a flanking full attack. This Two handed slayer has a few more ways to get sneak attack, and can win the DPR contest with non-lethal if he can intimidate his target.
Next I would like to look at something that is a bit more nuanced and uses two-weapon feint and maybe some other tricks. We may have the feats to make it work, but this is mostly just for fun and because I like the flavor. This is also using Agile weapons, so its PFS but not Core.
Human Slayer lvl 12 (20pt)
Str:14 (+2 belt)
Dex:23 (+2 belt, +3 levels, +2 race)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:13
Wis:10
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
H. Weapon Focus (Kukri)
1. Combat Expertise
2. Combat Style (TWF): Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Improved Feint
4. Trap-Finding
5. Two-Weapon Feint
6. Combat Style (TWF): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Improved Two-Weapon Feint
8. Combat Trick (Double Slice)
9. Improved Critical (Kukri)
10. Combat Style (TWF) : Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Critical Focus
12. Evasion
Skills:
Stealth:+21
Survival:+15 (+21 when tracking)
Intimidate:+19
Bluff:+19
Disable Device:+21
Perception:+15
Acrobatics:+21
Sense Motive: +15
Gear:
+2 belt of physical perfection
TWO - +2 Agile Kukri
Headband of Ninjitsu
Cloak of Resistance +3
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
Featherstep Slippers
+2 RoP
+2 AoNA
Bracers of Falcon's Aim
+2 Composite Longbow (+6)
DEFENSES:
HP: 118
AC: 27 (10, +6 dex, +7 armor, +2 ring, +2 amulet)
Fort: +14 Ref: +17 Will: +7
Evasion
OFFENSE:
Attack Bonus:+19 (+12 BAB, +6 dex, +2 weapons, -2 TWF, +1 weapon focus)
Favored Target Attack Bonus: +22
Tactics, use favored target and then two-weapon feint to get all your sneak attacks. Feint bonus is +21 (extra 2 from the headband of ninjitsu)
the remaining Full Attack against a feinted favored target will be +24/+19/+19/+14/+14, 1d4+11+4d6 (15-20/x2)
So, DPR (after a successful two-weapon feint) vs. CR 12 average of 26 dexless AC: 101.61
Really, not too bad, and you are master of your own destiny so to speak here. But this still lags behind.
Malkov! Try Two Weapon Rend instead of Greater Two Weapon Fighting, its wayyyy better =) That offhand 3rd iterative never hits anything.
I'm gonna look into making a Shatter Defenses build. I have a good feeling about it.
I think it's pretty much universally agreed that the worst thing about the Rogue are its Talents.That opinion is all well and good, but we can't start making slayer talents that are significantly better than rogue talents, because it would make any selectable rogue talent abysmal by comparison. The power of rogue/ninja/slayer talents is what they are, and we're not escalating that power level with this book. If you don't like any of the rogue talents because you think they're weak, just take the ones that grant you feats.
Does this mean that we might see a "Slayer Talent" option for Rogues? As I mentioned, it would be *amazing* if a Rogue archetype that traded Trapfinding away could pick it back up as a Rogue Talent (by selecting it as a Slayer Talent).
There's actually a precedent for this sort of thing too: the Alchemist can trade away Mutagen and select it again as an Alchemist Discovery.
Level 12 Human Slayer (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
Str:24 (+2 race, +3 levels, +4 belt)
Dex:15
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:11
Feats/Talents:
1: Power Attack
Human: EWP Sawtooth Saber
2: Ranger Style (Two Weapon Fighting)
3: Double Slice
4: Trapfinding
5: Intimidating Prowess
6: Ranger Style (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
7: Cornugon Smash
8: Weapon Training (Sawtooth Saber)
9: Dazzling Display
10: Ranger Style (Greater Two Weapon Fighting)
11: Shatter Defenses
12: Opportunist
If Traps aren't your thing, take Improved Crit instead, take Weapon Training at 4th, Combat Trick Improved Crit at 8th.
Gear:
Belt of Giant Str +4
Main Hand: +2 Cruel Sawtooth Saber
Off Hand: +3 Sawtooth Saber
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves
Headband of Ninjitsu
Skills: 12 Ranks +3 Class Skill on each
Acrobatics +15
Climb +20
Perception +19(+24 vs Traps)
Stealth +15
Survival +14
Disable Device +20(+25 vs Traps)
Intimidate +22(+25 against Favored Target)
DEFENSES
HP: 106
AC: 25
Fort:+13 Ref:+13 Will:+8
OFFENSES:
Favored Target grants a +3 to Attack and Weapon Damage Rolls. Swift Action to place.
Attack Bonus Calculation: 12(BAB)+7(Str)+3(Fav.Targ)+3(Wep.En)+1(Wep Focus)-2(Two Weapon Fighting)= +24
Attack Bonus without Power Attacking with Favored Target up:
MainHand:+24/+19/+14 OffHand:+23/+18/+13
Damage: 1d8+13/1d8+13/1d8+13/1d8+12/1d8+12/1d8+12
Attack Bonus while P.A with Favored Target:
Mainhand:+20/+15/+10 Offhand: +21/+16/+11
Damage: 1d8+20/1d8+20/1d8+20/1d8+16/1d8+16/1d8+16
Damage while Sneak Attacking Favored Target with Power Attack:
1d8+20+4d6 X3 1d8+16+4d6 X3
Tactics: Power Attack ALL the time. You get to Intimidate off of EACH one, though we hope its the first one =). DC20+ Wis Mod, We should get it with our +25. Once you shaken them, make all the attacks with the Cruel Weapon, Sickened is an AWESOME condition. This combo nets your team a -4 to the creature's saves and attack rolls. In exchange, the first time it gets off, the rest of your attacks that round become Sneak Attacks AND the next round.
The build is better with Kukris but I like Sawtooth Sabers.
Lord Malkov how do you calculate DPR? I've found some simple formulas but more complex stuff is kinda confusing heh.
TWF Cornugon Smash Build. .
Honestly, I Think The Two Most effective builds will be either a TWF Cornugon Smash build OR a Moonlight Stalker build.
I played the slayer yesterday and noticed one thing: If you want to use sneak attack you need to be mobile enough to get into flanking position. You loose the required mobility by wearing medium armor because with 20ft base move you are lucky if you get into the fight at all.
That way sneak attack and medium armor profession seems more or less mutual exclusive.
Some posters here stated that sneak should work on favoured targets. That would be an option. Another option would be to give the class armor training light or something like fast movement.
Or the slayer (or one of his archetypes) could switch out medium armor for something cool. Because wearing only light would solve the problem, too. Perhaps some int to AC in light armor or such.
Up to now this was the only problem I noticed. Apart from that it played quite well.
Mithral Breastplate fixes that issue pretty neatly IMO.
Then we are back to there being only one option and the pc is still hosed until he can afford one.
I wouldn't say "hosed". He can wear light armor until then, or he can deal with moving 10 ft. slower. A lot of classes have to deal with it.
Personally I think having the option to use Medium armor and taking a penalty for it temporarily (because seriously, who doesn't get Mithral armor at some point?) is better than not having it all by a lot (Lookin' at you, Rogue).
It helps not steer them towards a Dex using direction as well, since they don't necessarily need a buncha Dex for AC.
I played the slayer yesterday and noticed one thing: If you want to use sneak attack you need to be mobile enough to get into flanking position. You loose the required mobility by wearing medium armor because with 20ft base move you are lucky if you get into the fight at all.
That way sneak attack and medium armor profession seems more or less mutual exclusive.Some posters here stated that sneak should work on favoured targets. That would be an option. Another option would be to give the class armor training light or something like fast movement.
Or the slayer (or one of his archetypes) could switch out medium armor for something cool. Because wearing only light would solve the problem, too. Perhaps some int to AC in light armor or such.
Up to now this was the only problem I noticed. Apart from that it played quite well.
I've been playing the slayer in playtest, and have played melee dwarves previously, assuming that there are melee foes in the encounter, and you have a secondary melee, I've found five footing can get you into a flank if you coordinate with your allies. Failing that, Jaunt boots seem handy for that kind of thing, or a quick-runner's shirt.
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Lord Malkov how do you calculate DPR? I've found some simple formulas but more complex stuff is kinda confusing heh.
Its not hard. You need to find an average CR appropriate AC (I was using 28 for CR 12, which you can find is fairly accurate) first.
Then you calculate hit chances. So, for example, I'll do Taldrin the Terrifying's Main Hand.
TtT's MH: +24/+19/+14 1d8+13 (19-20/x2)
Vs AC 28: Hit chances are: 85%, 60%, 35%
1 - (AC - Hit Bonus - 1)*0.05
These can add together in their decimal form to give you an average number of hits per full attack, so the main hand will hit: 0.85 + 0.6 + 0.35 = 1.8 hits per full attack.
This number gets multiplied by the average damage per hit. 1d8 averages to 4.5 (Max roll + Min roll)/2 so 4.5+13 = 17.5 avg damage per hit.
DPR, then (before crits) is 1.8 x 17.5 = 31.5
To factor in crits we need to determine the odds of a confirmed crit or crits per full attack. Since the crit has an equal chance of coming on any attack, we use the average hit chance as out confirmation roll so (85% + 60% + 35%)/3 = 60%
Then we have to find the odds of 1 confirmed crit, 2 confirmed crits and 3 confirmed crits, and add the possible bonus damage from the crit on.
When dealing with probabilities, we need to find the thing that is reducing so we can multiply. A mistake I see a lot is people adding probabilities together (e.g, I have 6 attacks with keen kukris therefore I must have a 30% x 6 = 180% chance to get a crit... probabilities don't work this way).
SO, sawtooth sabres have a 10% chance to crit. Chance of failure is reducing so we need the chance to NOT crit, which is 90% then we use this formula: Chance to get One crit with three attacks: 1 - (0.9)^3 = 27.1% (so, 1 - (1-Crit Chance)^(# of attacks))
Next we multiply by our average chance to hit (aka to confirm the crit) of 60%. IE there is a 60% chance that this critical threat will actually be a crit. So 27.1% x 60% = 16.26% this is the overall chance to get 1 confirmed crit per full attack with the mainhand.
Then we factor in the possibility of two crits. Now we have to reduce chance of failure and then success once. Basically, we take the odds that two attacks might crit once and reduce that by another attack critting. That looks like this: (1 - (1-Crit Chance)^(#of attacks - 1))x(Crit Chance). So (1 - (.9)^(2))x(.1)= 1.9% chance that you will threaten 2 crits per three attacks.
Once again we reduce this by our average confirmation chance of 60% to get 1.14%
When this number gets small enough like this, I stop. The DPR added from your chance to get three crits is going to be so small that we can ignore it.
The added damage is pretty easy here. Each crit will add the same damage as a regular hit (17.5 avg). We only use the bonus damage because the regular hit part was already calculated above. Adding our probabilities, we have 0.1626 + 0.0114 = 0.174 bonus damage additions from crits per full attack. That number, just like avg number of hits, gets multiplied by the damage to get 0.174 x 17.5 = 3.045 DPR added
So, we have 31.5 and 3.045 for a total DPR of 34.545
To do sneak attack, flank etc. you need to go back and modify the variables for hit chances and damage per hit. Each sneak attack die adds an average of 3.5 damage to a regular hit (the first calculation) and does not effect crits (though the hit bonus from flanking or a headband of ninjitsu would).
For something odd like Two- Weapon Rend, we need to get the chance that the MH will hit at least once, and that the Offhand will hit at least oce, and then reduce (aka multiply them) to get the chance that both will occur at least once. Then we multiply by the average rend damage.
To in you case, hit chances of MH: 85% + 60% + 35% OH: 80% + 55% + 30%.
We get MH chance to hit at least once: 1 - ((1-.85)x(1-.6)x(1-.35) = 96.1%
OH chance to hit at least once: 1 - ((1-.80)x(1-.55)x(1-.30) = 93.7%
Chance that both will hit at least once: (0.961 x 0.937) = 90%
So we reduce the Average dmg of a two weapon rend (1d10 averages to 5.5, plus 1.5x +7str = 5.5+10 = 15.5) by this number. SO two weapon rend is adding, in this case: 0.9 x 15.5 = 13.95 DPR
And so on and so on, for the Offhand... but you can see the method. Its pretty easy if a bit tedious to calculate.
Slayer Talents are really going to make or break this class for me.
Upgrading Sneak Attack against a single target, or dishing out de-buffs against your target's AC or Saves (like Slowing Strike), and giving more talents that have DCs to take advantage of that aspect of Favored Target.
As long as there is a nice, large spread of unique options for Talents (that fit with the Slayer/Murderer motif...serial killer talents anyone?) this class will work out great.
Slayer Talents are really going to make or break this class for me.
Upgrading Sneak Attack against a single target, or dishing out de-buffs against your target's AC or Saves (like Slowing Strike), and giving more talents that have DCs to take advantage of that aspect of Favored Target.
As long as there is a nice, large spread of unique options for Talents (that fit with the Slayer/Murderer motif...serial killer talents anyone?) this class will work out great.
I think that since studying a target is a swift action at best, it might be worthwhile to have a talent that allows a swift Intimidate check (see swashbuckler Menacing Swordplay) against a Favored Target. It becomes a decent ability, but the action economy keeps it in check.
A talent that allows the Slayer to study two targets with one action would be wonderful, as would one that lets the Slayer study a new target as a free action if he kills his current favored target.
An advanced talent that simply increases the number of sneak attack dice by 1 would be very fair.
A talent that gave the Slayer an AC bonus against his favored target would also be cool. +1/2 the slayers FT bonus as an insight bonus to AC (min 1)? It would scale pretty poorly that way, but it would be more than fair as a talent. It could also just be a flat +2.
Something as an advanced talent that increased the efficacy of critical hits would be nice. I always thought this would be a great rogue talent: Critical Sneak: When sneak attacking, the rogue adds +1 for each sneak attack die they have to attack rolls made to confirm a critical hit. This bonus does not stack with critical focus.
That would probably be a bit of a waste for the slayer though. (pretty awesome for the rogue though eh?)
So, instead I would do something like this for an advanced slayer talent.
Critical Slaying: When the Slayer confirms a critical hit that is also a sneak attack, he does not need to roll his sneak attack dice, instead, he deals additional precision damage as if he had rolled the maximum number on each of his sneak attack dice.
Critical Slaying: When the Slayer confirms a critical hit that is also a sneak attack, he does not need to roll his sneak attack dice, instead, he deals...
Yes please.
As a matter of fact the MORE ways I can convert my sneak attack dice into static bonuses, like Bonus damage, to-hit, or AC, or Saves, or anything vs my Favored Target the better!... That allows for Slayers to have a good amount of variety in terms of builds and flexibility.
Alright so, successfully Cornugon Smashing makes them flatfooted and grants us our sneak attack thus giving us the +2 from the Headband. We're going to flank a bit now for another +2. We're aiming at a flatfooted of 26 now so we essentially have another +2. We're still Power Attacking and now we're getting Sneak Attack.
Main Hand
Vs AC 26: Hit chances are: 95%, 70%, 35%
Offhand chances are: 100%?, 75%, 40%
We average 4 hits per full attack.
Our Average damage is approximately
DPR then (before crits) is 4 X 22.5 = 90
Sneak Attacks adds 14 damage a hit on average leaving our DPR at: 136
Our Confirmed avg Crit chance is: (100+95+75+70+35+40)/6= 69%
Chance to get 1 Crit with 6 attacks is: 46%
31% chance of getting a Crit. Cool.
6% chance of getting two Crits. Awesome.
Adds 8.3 to our DPR.
So we're at a grand total of 144 DPR
I rounded down a few times so its a tidbit higher than this actually. Its not an optimal build, we have a few skillful obligations to this party with Trapfinding, but if we were just needed to be a DPR machine we could work Improved Crit in and I think Kukris would probably make the build better.
Alright so, successfully Cornugon Smashing makes them flatfooted and grants us our sneak attack thus giving us the +2 from the Headband. We're going to flank a bit now for another +2. We're aiming at a flatfooted of 26 now so we essentially have another +2. We're still Power Attacking and now we're getting Sneak Attack.
Main Hand
Vs AC 26: Hit chances are: 95%, 70%, 35%
Offhand chances are: 100%?, 75%, 40%
We average 4 hits per full attack.Our Average damage is approximately
DPR then (before crits) is 4 X 22.5 = 90
Sneak Attacks adds 14 damage a hit on average leaving our DPR at: 136Our Confirmed avg Crit chance is: (100+95+75+70+35+40)/6= 69%
Chance to get 1 Crit with 6 attacks is: 46%
31% chance of getting a Crit. Cool.
6% chance of getting two Crits. Awesome.Adds 8.3 to our DPR.
So we're at a grand total of 144 DPR
I rounded down a few times so its a tidbit higher than this actually. Its not an optimal build, we have a few skillful obligations to this party with Trapfinding, but if we were just needed to be a DPR machine we could work Improved Crit in and I think Kukris would probably make the build better.
Only mistake there is using a 100% hit chance. It caps out at 95% because 1s always miss. And it bottoms out at 5% because 20s always hit. But yeah, looks right to me. 144 is not at all overpowering on a full attack with flank and sneak attack. It is right where is should be.
It is important, however, to remember that after the free intimidate, you still need to get a regular hit in to shatter the target's defenses, essentially, you need to hit a shaken target to activate shatter. So it would end up being 1. Hit with weapon, 2. Make free intimidate, 3. Hit again to activate shatter defenses 4. all subsequent attacks until the end of your next turn treat the target as flat-footed. Still very potent though.
With a swift action intimidate built in as a talent though, you can do this before attacking and then shatter on the first attack, so it is better for two-hander builds. Intimidate also can be used at range, and shatter defenses does NOT require a melee attack, so within 30 ft, you could intimidate when using a bow and shatter defenses on the first bow shot which would enable a much better ranged sneak attack build.
as far as i've seen, there is no "1's always miss, 20's always hit" rule in pathfinder, though i would love to be surprised.
as far as i've seen, there is no "1's always miss, 20's always hit" rule in pathfinder, though i would love to be surprised.
Errr...
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss.
A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a Critical Threat—a possible critical hit.
Look in the "Common Terms" section of your rulebook. It also counts for saves.
again with the memory fails today. do they affect skill checks?
Nope. Only attack rolls and saves. Nothing else.
okay cool, i'll be sure to remember.
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A few things I that I would do to improve the slayer are:
Add Slayers Charge at 4th level Same as Scouts Charge and at 8th level I would add Skirmisher at 8th and drop Slayers advance. I would also add an advanced talent that changes the Slayers sneak attack dice to d8's.
A few things I that I would do to improve the slayer are:
Add Slayers Charge at 4th level Same as Scouts Charge and at 8th level I would add Skirmisher at 8th and drop Slayers advance. I would also add an advanced talent that changes the Slayers sneak attack dice to d8's.
Those sound like solid suggestions. Sneak attackers need more mobility options, for sure.
Only mistake there is using a 100% hit chance. It caps out at 95% because 1s always miss. And it bottoms out at 5% because 20s always hit. But yeah, looks right to me. 144 is not at all overpowering on a full attack with flank and sneak attack. It is right where is should be.It is important, however, to remember that after the free intimidate, you still need to get a regular hit in to shatter the target's defenses, essentially, you need to hit a shaken target to activate shatter. So it would end up being 1. Hit with weapon, 2. Make free intimidate, 3. Hit again to activate shatter defenses 4. all subsequent attacks until the end of your next turn treat the target as flat-footed. Still very potent though.
With a swift action intimidate built in as a talent though, you can do this before attacking and then...
Right, most of this happens on round two. I see it happening a bit like this.
Round 1: Swift Action Favored Target. Charge/Move into position. POWER ATTACK. LAND THAT INTIMIDATE.
Round 2: EVISCERATE!
We could use more talent brainstorming in this thread.
Rogue Talent Pitch
Telling Blow: When a Slayer confirms a critical, he may treat his target as flatfooted for the purposes of sneak attack.
Reading in the Swashbuckler thread that there may be an expansion on Dervish Dance with feats coming for other weapons. Curious what people think of that in relation to slayer builds? Let's assume it's light/ Finesse-able weapons. Does this make it into your build?
Reading in the Swashbuckler thread that there may be an expansion on Dervish Dance with feats coming for other weapons. Curious what people think of that in relation to slayer builds? Let's assume it's light/ Finesse-able weapons. Does this make it into your build?
Oh yes. I'm going to be making a two punching daggers Slayer or if Sawtooth Sabers work I'm going to try that.
You know, it's good to free up some stat points for charisma and/or intelligence, but if that's at the cost of widening the net for even more dervish dance abhorance... No thanks. Admittedly, it's my single least favourite feat in the game, so I may be somewhat predisposed to dislike it.