All four of those feats double with spell perfection (fireball) making it
18 + 1 + (1+2+2+2)x2 = +33 to overcome spell resistance.
Spell specialization does not provide a bonus; it is not doubled by Spell Perfection. It is not +2 caster level, it's "Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell."
So it's 18+2+1+(1+2+2)*2=31.
Quote:
Spell perfection: free metamagic not exceeding 9th level -> Heighten to 9th level for free +9DC
So thats DC 10 + 12 + 4 + 9 = DC 35.
Sorry, no can do. A Dazing Elemental (Cold) Fireball with magical lineage would take up a 6th level slot, so you could at most heighten it to 6th level for a total slot level of 9th (as limited by spell perfection)
So it's 10+6(level)+12(cha)+4(gsf)=32, vs a saving bonus of +19 or so (+14 naked +1 belt of physical perfection +4 cloak of resistance).
Also note that being able to heighten spell with spell perfection is a very, very gray area of the rules; spell perfection allows a metamagic "without changing the level", the only thing heighten does is change level; it's very valid to read this spell as them not working together, and in line with explicit intent (as Jason Buhlman has stated); being able to apply it is a fringe interpretation of the rules and one that goes against the developers intent.
However, one could as easily just have the Dazing part be free and end up with the same result; heighten to 6th, turn to cold, apply dazing.
Quote:
if that fails, switch to a Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (acid) and quicken the same spell out of a 9th level slot.
Now we're entering shroeder territory - you stated you fired two of them, and when I showed you that wouldn't work that well you start ret-conning your actions. And if you start retconning then I can too by stating that well it has protection from acid on it too and we can continue blathering in a pointless way.
It's fine to make an example tactic and have it not work, but owe up to...
*Reads Spell Specialization and Spell perfection again. twice*
Well, that's nit picky and obnoxious. write "two" instead of "+2" and the rules are different. OK I'll give you that. The odds of success are still very high though so I'm not worrying about this too much. There are several magic items that could be added to address this as well. (I think the PFS players guide has some consumable items that give a +5 boost, I'll have to look it up.)
OK if heighten spell doesn't apply RAI to spell perfection then it goes off as a 7th level spell. That's 2 off the DC. so DC 33. This is actually my biggest conundrum with the build, because the dragon can wear save boosting magic items and get the odds of save success high enough to block the daze, in which case the caster is basically going to get hurt.
I don't see switching rods of metamagic as terribly odd since the +1 rods are relatively cheap, gloves of storing exist, and the need to switch indicates that the dragon got pre-buff time that the caster didn't.
Anyway, here is what I am trying to figure out in this thread: The op stated, "Assuming you're a high level wizard, what would be the best methods of taking down a Dragon, let's say a Red Dragon? Let's say 9th level spells."
Here is how I'm trying to think about it: Can a build feasibly do it tactically? What would the specifics of the build be?
Now the answer is obviously no if the dragon has GM fiat, but that is pointless to think about. A lot of people here seem to flat out reject the idea of an even fight (i.e. no surprise round, same amount of buff rounds) which is annoying. I'm trying to look at it mechanically. Also, this is how I learn the system better.
So yes I am going to switch out things that don't work or that I didn't think of.
I like the fire based draconic sorcerer bloodline for the caster because it gives immunity to fire and blindsense 60ft at 16th level with robes of arcane heritage. The tattooed archtype nets a familiar with +4 initiative. I think on the wizard side, a foresight diviner may be the best choice followed by an admixture evoker. But I'm playing with the sorcerer at the moment because it is similar to one of my PCs so I have some familiarity with it.
I think though that fireball as the focus spell will need to be changed if save boosting on the dragon is assumed. going with dragon breath might be better because of the versatility of elemental damage removes the need for a rod of elemental metamagic, and one could use a rod of persistant metamagic instead. Also one could go with ball lightning to force many saves, but then it's open to being blocked by lightning protection so it needs to be backed up with elemental rods of ice and acid, and therefore makes using a persistent metamagic rod instead risky.
So, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, point out better tactics for the caster or the dragon, or whatever.
If somebody wants to just say, "no you cant win because dragon," it has already been said and doesn't really help anybody learn anything.
...If somebody wants to just say, "no you cant win because dragon," it has already been said and doesn't really help anybody learn anything...
Actually I like your fundamental approach. Massive damage, doesn't require line of sight, just a general...oh he's over there *BOOM* "is he dead yet?" *repeat*
My two primary concerns are the SR and saving throw issues. But nothing is 100%. Getting a 75% chance is pretty decent considering a solo situation. Or say throw a Quickened Ill-Omen or something similar (if dragons are immune to Ill-Omen, I'm sure there's a spell/ability in Paizodom with the desired effect) if you really want to pin that save.
If you are fighting Schrödinger's Dragon...then yeah well you'll never win. Because a borgified dragon will always have retroactively adapted to whatever you were going to do next round.
It would help if the OP specified how old the dragon was. Because Age Categories make a huge difference in capability. It could have anything from 6th level spells to 9th level.
Regarding "Schroedinger's Dragon" well, that's kind of how dragons are or should be played. That is, each dragon IS unique and powerful. It's lair is going to be unique. Just slapping on assumptions about how the fight will start is a really bad idea. These are extremely powerful and clever creatures.
General tips and combat advise is good. Ideally attacks that don't use save. Have a Disjunction to counter an AMF. Summons can be useful. Dex damage CAN work, depending, but there are also a lot of ways to counter it (and a savvy dragon/DM will have planned ahead). It's also rather anti-climatic and likely cause unhappy faces even if it does work.
What you definitely need is a lot of planning, scouting, and investigating. Both magic and mundane. Start off with indirect inquiries such as using Contact Plane, Commune, Legend Lore, asking locals, researching history, etc, etc. Get a feel for the dragon before you do anything it might detect. And always, plan a battle with multiple strategies to victory. Assume he might counter anything you do and prepare ways to respond (including responses to particular counters like AMF -- AMF will be the trickiest bit to deal with, honestly). And always, always, always have multiple escape routes. Try to have ways to counter the same (or track the dragon if it flees to a warded area on another plane).
Anyway, I'm going to try to summarize the tactics needed to win against a big red dragon solo:
0.) Don't let it force you to slog up to the battlefield of its choosing, expending all your resources in the process, in order to fight a pre-buffed dragon optimized to kill your specific character that gets a surprise round on you in a smoke cloud. You will die. Teleport back to your demiplane and rethink things if you suspect this is happening.
1.) Win initiative. Big dragons have a poor initiative bonus. This is a weakness that you must take advantage of. Casters can have a very high initiative. Make sure you have this.
2.) Pump up your caster level to be able to reliably beat the SR of the dragon. The dragon can't buff this easily to my knowledge. You can buff your rolls to overcome it many ways.
3.) The dragon's weakest save is dexterity. If you can boost your save DC sufficiently, the dazing spell metamagic feat will buy you half a dozen or so rounds of action without getting pummeled if you can land some damage. Be able to change your elemental damage easily while keeping your save DCs super high to counter any surprise immunities.
4.) Now attack the dexterity score with polar ray or Calcific touch. Both spells are subject to SR, so be able to repeatedly cast them. When that already low dex hit's 0, its helpless.
Mage's disjunction only has a chance = casterlevel % of knocking down an antimagic field. Since it is hard to get caster level into the low 30's, This is probably going to fail and get you hurt. Personally I want percentages over 75%. I guess you can time stop and then spam, but whether that is coming from a scroll, staff, or spell slots, it is A LOT of resources.
Luckily I don't think an ancient dragon can fit entirely inside of it without squeezing, and then it just gimped its movement. I don't think a great wyrm fits at all. Now if it casts antimagic field on its head and then corners you in a tunnel, that's bad. Out in the open though, its probably not a good choice. I would think that casting AMF on its own head would render it immune to compulsions and it could still wink out summons though.
Also, the difference between the ancient red dragon and the great wyrm red dragon is about 400,000 gp worth of loot if I'm doing my CR 19 vs CR 22 triple treasures correctly. That is a lot of magic items to help it if you're equipping it with its own loot.
Assuming you win initiative and didn't get surprised:
1. time stop.
2. Analyze Dweomer. could be quickened with a standard rod to save actions.
3. Mage's disjunction as needed. Boost the caster level however you can to really pummel those spells. This could knock out all contingencies.
4. Get some heightened persistent dazing ball lightnings up and ready to mob the dragon. ready a move action to move the lightning balls onto the dragon as soon as time starts again.
I'll just say that Dazing Spell looks like one of the most overpowered feats I've seen since Divine Metamagic ;)
Multiple rounds of dazing is an auto-win against most enemies, if they fail that save.
Anyway.. I think a better challenge would be to use CRB material only, against either a specific Bestiary dragon or a dragon built using only Bestiary and CRB material (and while I like to use some of a dragon's treasure as items it will use, it should still prefer to sleep on a huge pile of gold and jewels!)
Wrote a longer post yesterday but the forum ate it and I won't bother retyping all, but basically, yes, if a set static dragon is fighting an everchanging wizard over and over again, the wizard will find a way to beat it. I'm not claiming otherwise. But the examples so far have left a lot to wish for.
The visibility issue is quite big. Since the wizard is the one who wants to kill the dragon, I think it's very safe to assume that the encounter will be in the dragon's lair, and for a red dragon there is no reason NOT to have it's lair in a place where there's very heavy smoke equal to the pyrotechnics spell.
Mage's Disjunction, Analyze Dweomer and Ball Lightning won't affect the dragon if cast during time stop. Time stop will provide time to self-buff though.
Note that gloves of storing will only get you one stored item, and for a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells is a full-round action while drawing (or putting away) a rod is a move action.
So using different rods is a bit awkward with a sorcerer.
Dazing ball lightnings sound far more effective than dazing cold fireball though. Ten saves is HARSH, even if the DC isn't nearly as high.
Still hasn't solved the visibility issue though.
Note that you can't cast Mage's Disjunction during the time
That's a very good find. Good item in general. It should be noted though that it isn't part of the core rules but setting-specific and so may not be available.
Mage's Disjunction, Analyze Dweomer and Ball Lightning won't affect the dragon if cast during time stop. Time stop will provide time to self-buff though.
Disjunction technically will as it is an area effect spell with a duration greater than the duration of the apparent rounds from Timestop. Analyze Dweomer will for the same reason. The Ball Lightning orbs will appear and sit there doing nothing until Time Stop ends and then murderise the dragon and its terrible Reflex save.
And yes Dazing Spell, Persistent Spell and Spell Perfection are all crazily powerful and given to classes which already have crazily powerful class abilities.
Note that gloves of storing will only get you one stored item, and for a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells is a full-round action while drawing (or putting away) a rod is a move action.
The sorcerer doing this should really be Arcane as they get to ignore the increased casting time from level 16 onwards and get up to 3 points of extra DC. You don't need the damage bonus from Draconic or Elemental or what have you when using Dazing spell as when it sticks you have all the time in the world.
I don't have much to contribute to the 'tax documentation' level of analyzing the specific wording of rules and status effects; personally that stuff is not only boring, but it gets laughable fast. Granted, for any system there is a level of suspended disbelief, but I personally feel the first step in killing a dragon is like painting (a house).
90% prep, 10% finish.
You have to be able to out-think the dragon (not an easy task). Talking the specifics of exactly how to number-crunch stats before you've figured out how to circumvent a mind with more than a thousand years as not only an apex predator...but THE apex predator of all fantasy creation is a fool's errand. And no, this isn't a "you can't win because dragon," angle. Any GM/ DM that sets up a dragon fight with you in an arena-like setting that starts with a roll for initiative needs to brush up on GMing/ DMing. That actually IS the first step - you have to out-think the dragon.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the Council of Wyrms campaign setting a la 2nd Edition Dungeons and Dragons. Different game and at least a decade removed I know, but it gives people a good idea of what dragons DO with those thousands of years of life they have. They have levels in multiple classes. They have plated their talons and fangs in enchanted adamantite and mythril. They wear massive bracers and amulets that are intensely magical. They do their own spell research. They are literally the favored agents of deities and demigods when they are of sufficient age and notoriety.
So - how would you kill something like that solo? I would start with becoming the champion of a greater deity.
If creatures that cross your coffee table are simply a bland amalgamation of numbers and modifiers that provide nothing more than a statistical probability of success or failure to player characters...so be it. But you could be having a much better game that you'll remember 15 years after you played it.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the Council of Wyrms campaign setting a la 2nd Edition Dungeons and Dragons. Different game and at least a decade removed I know, but it gives people a good idea of what dragons DO with those thousands of years of life they have. They have levels in multiple classes. They have plated their talons and fangs in enchanted adamantite and mythril. They wear massive bracers and amulets that are intensely magical. They do their own spell research. They are literally the favored agents of deities and demigods when they are of sufficient age and notoriety.
Some of us prefer our Dragons to be, well, Dragons, rather than Wizards with a better chassis.
Note that gloves of storing will only get you one stored item, and for a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells is a full-round action while drawing (or putting away) a rod is a move action.
The sorcerer doing this should really be Arcane as they get to ignore the increased casting time from level 16 onwards and get up to 3 points of extra DC. You don't need the damage bonus from Draconic or Elemental or what have you when using Dazing spell as when it sticks you have all the time in the world.
Draconic gives you immunity to your element, always flying, and blindsense at level 16 with robes of arcane heritage though. It seems super helpful. Thats why I was trying to do it with a fire draconic bloodline. It's not for the damage bonus.
Draconic gives you immunity to your element, always flying, and blindsense at level 16 with robes of arcane heritage though. It seems super helpful. Thats why I was trying to do it with a fire draconic bloodline. It's not for the damage bonus.
You are level 16+. Grabbing Overland Flight and Echolocation cover the first two. Resist Energy or Protection from Energy can help with the third or just use Emergency Force Sphere to negate any breath attacks as an immediate action.
Wrote a longer post yesterday but the forum ate it and I won't bother retyping all, but basically, yes, if a set static dragon is fighting an everchanging wizard over and over again, the wizard will find a way to beat it. I'm not claiming otherwise. But the examples so far have left a lot to wish for.
The visibility issue is quite big. Since the wizard is the one who wants to kill the dragon, I think it's very safe to assume that the encounter will be in the dragon's lair, and for a red dragon there is no reason NOT to have it's lair in a place where there's very heavy smoke equal to the pyrotechnics spell.
Mage's Disjunction, Analyze Dweomer and Ball Lightning won't affect the dragon if cast during time stop. Time stop will provide time to self-buff though.
Note that gloves of storing will only get you one stored item, and for a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells is a full-round action while drawing (or putting away) a rod is a move action.
So using different rods is a bit awkward with a sorcerer.
Dazing ball lightnings sound far more effective than dazing cold fireball though. Ten saves is HARSH, even if the DC isn't nearly as high.
Still hasn't solved the visibility issue though.
Note that you can't cast Mage's Disjunction during the time stop
Yes, so I think you really only have access to two rods easily if you want them for already metamagicked spells. The caster definitely isn't putting away the rod if it isn't the correct rod. He's dropping it. Spontaneous Metafocus gets around the full round casting time on the sorcerer build I tossed up, but of course only works on one spell. That build also counters the visibility issue with blindsense to 60 ft. The goz mask seems to be even better though.
The Council of Wyrms doesn't have dragons taking class levels. It has dragons taking different dragon levels, ie. with more focus on spellcasting. The 'base dragon' is the 'fighter' of dragonkind.
The dragons only get more powerful by aging. THat's a big, big disadvantage. Yes, it's a major apex predator. But by it's very nature it's directed into x feats and spells as a manifestation of the primal nature of the universe. Willy-nilly altering everything about the base dragon goes against what dragons are.
Dragons are not INDUSTRIOUS. A Wyrm has probably spent most of its thousand years asleep on its horde, not busily power-gaming. It may run battlefield sceanrios over and over in its head, but mostly its probably communing with elemental powers that grant it all those skill ranks without, you know, actually having to attend a library or great training and stuff.
They don't make items for themselves because that's laborious, and dragons don't labor. Minions labor for them. Hoard treasure is hoard treasure, not something they barter and trade away for better gear. They aren't MERCHANTS...they are the EMPERORS OF REALITY PUNY HUMAN!!!
Remember that. Pride and arrogance are the CENTER of what it means to be a dragon. You're not some twerk gamer morphed into a dragon, looking to maximize your uberness. You're already uber. Nobody is better then you. WHen they come, you stomp them and crush them with your matchless draconic might and knowledge. There ain't no way such puny fleas can beat you. Then you take their gear, and maybe you wear some of it, and most of it goes on the pile for you to take more pride and proof of your uberness in.
Perhaps every dragon should be slightly different from the core to represent individuality, but they definitely shouldn't be optimized. They are dragons, and they are absolutely convinced they are naturally the most powerful creatures alive. They don't NEED to be optimized in their own mindsets.
Yes, so I think you really only have access to two rods easily if you want them for already metamagicked spells. The caster definitely isn't putting away the rod if it isn't the correct rod. He's dropping it. Spontaneous Metafocus gets around the full round casting time on the sorcerer build I tossed up, but of course only works on one spell. That build also counters the visibility issue with blindsense to 60 ft. The goz mask seems to be even better though.
Dropping potentially expensive metamagic rods in caves filled with lava is not a long term winning proposition...:)
Draconic gives you immunity to your element, always flying, and blindsense at level 16 with robes of arcane heritage though. It seems super helpful. Thats why I was trying to do it with a fire draconic bloodline. It's not for the damage bonus.
You are level 16+. Grabbing Overland Flight and Echolocation cover the first two. Resist Energy or Protection from Energy can help with the third or just use Emergency Force Sphere to negate any breath attacks as an immediate action.
True, but I would prefer to have everything going already without requiring buff rounds, and would prefer to not get affected by the dragon or any trap or peon hitting me with a disjunction or greater dispel magic either. Also, I really enjoyed playing that bloodline so far. The fire resistance has negated a lot of pain. Nobody every mentions that on the build guides.
Yes, so I think you really only have access to two rods easily if you want them for already metamagicked spells. The caster definitely isn't putting away the rod if it isn't the correct rod. He's dropping it. Spontaneous Metafocus gets around the full round casting time on the sorcerer build I tossed up, but of course only works on one spell. That build also counters the visibility issue with blindsense to 60 ft. The goz mask seems to be even better though.
Dropping potentially expensive metamagic rods in caves filled with lava is not a long term winning proposition...:)
If my PC is fighting vs a very possible TPK, everything is expendable.
Echolocation is implicitly using sound to map. You're going to be broadcasting your prescence to the dragon, just so's you know, in the same way dogs can hear bats and the like.
The Council of Wyrms doesn't have dragons taking class levels. It has dragons taking different dragon levels, ie. with more focus on spellcasting. The 'base dragon' is the 'fighter' of dragonkind.
The dragons only get more powerful by aging. THat's a big, big disadvantage. Yes, it's a major apex predator. But by it's very nature it's directed into x feats and spells as a manifestation of the primal nature of the universe. Willy-nilly altering everything about the base dragon goes against what dragons are.
Dragons are not INDUSTRIOUS. A Wyrm has probably spent most of its thousand years asleep on its horde, not busily power-gaming. It may run battlefield sceanrios over and over in its head, but mostly its probably communing with elemental powers that grant it all those skill ranks without, you know, actually having to attend a library or great training and stuff.
They don't make items for themselves because that's laborious, and dragons don't labor. Minions labor for them. Hoard treasure is hoard treasure, not something they barter and trade away for better gear. They aren't MERCHANTS...they are the EMPERORS OF REALITY PUNY HUMAN!!!
Remember that. Pride and arrogance are the CENTER of what it means to be a dragon. You're not some twerk gamer morphed into a dragon, looking to maximize your uberness. You're already uber. Nobody is better then you. WHen they come, you stomp them and crush them with your matchless draconic might and knowledge. There ain't no way such puny fleas can beat you. Then you take their gear, and maybe you wear some of it, and most of it goes on the pile for you to take more pride and proof of your uberness in.
Perhaps every dragon should be slightly different from the core to represent individuality, but they definitely shouldn't be optimized. They are dragons, and they are absolutely convinced they are naturally the most powerful creatures alive. They don't NEED to be optimized in their own mindsets.
===Aelryinth
Saying a dragon is what it is because it is a manifestation of the primal nature of the universe is severely shortsighted and deeply flawed. A dragon is sentient - it is intelligent, and according to the lore of most campaign settings, it is the first among beings created by the gods. It isn't a static collection of feats and powers.
A dragon can be industrious as it wants to be. Gold and red dragons didn't develop an anamosity that spans longer than recorded fantasy history by sleeping on their piles of treasure - they scheemed and fought, sponsored proxy armies through manipulating nations and gathered faithful servants whom they trained and groomed to be ruthlessly powerful assasins and guardians; thank you for proving part of my point. Before you want to kill a dragon, you need to off of all of its' servants first. What kinds of servants do dragons have? Well, don't be surprised if you find a 9th level spell-wielding mage in the employ and favor of your would-be prey, along with some rather powerful swordsmen and women - the kind that are master/ legendary blacksmiths and whom are capable of capping dragon teeth and talons in the rarest and most magical of metals.
Pride and arrogance are at the core of a red dragon's psyche, I will give you that, but with arrogance comes a restless, elitist, narcissistic determination to be the best. That might be manifest in eliminating the opposition before they become a challenge, or a simple dismissal of an opponent's credibility, but intelligent arrogance matures into suspicion, greed, and avarice. Granted, arrogance and ignorance are not mutually exclusive by any means, but a creature of such advanced age that notices a foe that could potentially harm him is resentful enough of that opponent's presence to do something about it with a savage certainty.
And yes, there are in fact class levels conferred to dragons in the CoW setting for 2nd Edition; their vassals have plenty of levels to boast too.
A dragon doesn't need to be optimized? Well, a dragon has needs. All living (especially sentient) things do. Ask yourself what a dragon loves, then ask yourself how they would go about getting that thing. A dragon will do what it wants to appease itself - directly or indirectly being a matter of preference or resources - including planning, strategizing, training, bargaining, allying, and fighting to advance their needs into satisfaction(s). That sounds like an active, intelligent, determined creature that won't exist in a blissfully deluded state of ignorance for thousands of years.
Declaring that a dragon will fatalistically accept whatever birth conferred to it comes from the narrowmindedness that shouts "game balance!" in a shrill voice while stabbing fingers at pages in rulebooks. I understand the necessity for balance in a good many things, but absolutely not in everything. There are creatures that exist in fantasy worlds that are far and away more powerful than many PC's will ever be. Want to prove that axiom wrong? Stick with a game and get your character to epic levels because you earned it - not because you bought an epic level game handbook and wanted to try it.
Then, you'll probably have a lot better ideas on how to kill a dragon solo.
My player's mages have killed dragons solo....but only the young adult stage at maximum...but even then it was with a 1st/2nd edition fighter mage...they were brave but not stupid.
A 12th level wizard "tried" to take on a mature adult red dragon solo to show the parties fighters how its done...
I threw in a pair of fire giant lackeys and even let their thief scout the lair [volcano] and see the giants.
He never told the mage one word about the giants. [they were the best of enemies in game and real life]
The mage's lesson did not end the way he intended.
They take all dragons very seriously...group effort like a battle plan from Patton...I'd eat them alive if they ever didn't.
Regarding assuming the dragon will be exceedingly arrogant vs. assuming it will be optimized and clever: If you assume it's optimized and clever and are wrong, then it won't kill you. If you assume it is exceedingly arrogant and are wrong, then it will. You gotta play it safe around dragons.
andreww wrote:
bfobar wrote:
Yes, so I think you really only have access to two rods easily if you want them for already metamagicked spells. The caster definitely isn't putting away the rod if it isn't the correct rod. He's dropping it. Spontaneous Metafocus gets around the full round casting time on the sorcerer build I tossed up, but of course only works on one spell. That build also counters the visibility issue with blindsense to 60 ft. The goz mask seems to be even better though.
Dropping potentially expensive metamagic rods in caves filled with lava is not a long term winning proposition...:)
I don't understand, why don't they just put it on a bungee?
... If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
Though one can cast a few spells into an Antimagic field. This includes the wall spells and even a few blasts.
One could toss the level 0 Acid Arrow right into an Antimagic field. There is also the Ice Spears spell from Inner Sea Magic, and the 9th level Clashing Rocks Spell.
Sadly those spells increase their duration to the duration of the effect.
With the Ice Spears one could make a pretty efficient Dazing Spell build having the Dragon save 4 times all while protected by an Antimagic field.
The visibility issue is quite big. Since the wizard is the one who wants to kill the dragon, I think it's very safe to assume that the encounter will be in the dragon's lair
Level 20 wizards don't have encounters. They find the dragon's mountain lair with divination spells, then wish the mountain to cave in on the lair, all from the comfort of their own demiplane.
Seems like a Goz mask or an item, spell or ability like it would be the answer for me as far as the seeing through the smoke. Blindsight or sense (like granted by Echolocation or Form of the Dragon) out to 60ft are for me insufficient for really dealing with the visibility issues of the smoke though excellent ability otherwise.
Then again I should be trying to approach via Earth Glide and using Tremorsense to find/approach the Wyrm as that seems the best bet for approaching without being detected (or at least postponing detection as long as possible). Any method or way to become a Magma Elemental outside of home rules? Otherwise it's Earth Elemental and having to potentially deal with lava/fire damage.
Drachasor wrote:
I don't understand, why don't they just put it on a bungee?
Well two thoughts come to mind for me.
1) The bungee won't stop it from hitting the floor or in this case the lava (and hence avoid the destruction alluded to above).
or 2) My own Loremaster wouldn't do it as having a 5 lbs weight making like a yo-yo bashing off my knees, maybe flinging blobs of lava about from quick dips and the imagined difficulty of continuing to cast spells with Somatic components with said 5 lbs yo-yo doing its thing just doesn't sit right (even if the rules might permit it).
Why does everyone want to use Dazing metamagic on an energy damage spell? Use it on something that does Force damage (heightened MM anyone?), or even something like Ice Storm, that does part cold, part bludgeoning. Or if it must be pure energy, do sonic. Ear-piercing Scream, for instance. It's the rare creature/caster that protects against sonic damage. Heighten it for the SR boost and boom. (Dare I say, SONIC boom?) After all, it just needs to do 1pt, right?
Why does everyone want to use Dazing metamagic on an energy damage spell? Use it on something that does Force damage (heightened MM anyone?), or even something like Ice Storm, that does part cold, part bludgeoning. Or if it must be pure energy, do sonic. Ear-piercing Scream, for instance. It's the rare creature/caster that protects against sonic damage. Heighten it for the SR boost and boom. (Dare I say, SONIC boom?) After all, it just needs to do 1pt, right?
Yep
myself upthread wrote:
I might even be tempted to hit our dragon with something not "cold" or preferable untyped/not elemental to bypass presumed protections just to get him Dazed.
I would, however, make sure it allows a Reflex save and not 'Saving Throw none' as that would default to allowing a Will save to avoid the Daze. And if possible make it a 5th level+ (ideally 9th) spell to avoid any 4th level cleric spell (or related spells) - Spell Immunity issues as well. And I'm sure its a typo/typing too fast thing but to be clear Heighten boosts the Save DC, it has no effect on penetrating SR.
Why does everyone want to use Dazing metamagic on an energy damage spell? Use it on something that does Force damage (heightened MM anyone?), or even something like Ice Storm, that does part cold, part bludgeoning. Or if it must be pure energy, do sonic. Ear-piercing Scream, for instance. It's the rare creature/caster that protects against sonic damage. Heighten it for the SR boost and boom. (Dare I say, SONIC boom?) After all, it just needs to do 1pt, right?
Because most Force spells don't have Reflex half, therefore making the Save for Dazing a Will save. Our Dragon like most high level monsters will have a much higher Will save than Reflex.
Luckily there is the Havoc of Society trait, which allows you to add 1 Force damage to any of your damage spells.
Why does everyone want to use Dazing metamagic on an energy damage spell? Use it on something that does Force damage (heightened MM anyone?), or even something like Ice Storm, that does part cold, part bludgeoning. Or if it must be pure energy, do sonic. Ear-piercing Scream, for instance. It's the rare creature/caster that protects against sonic damage. Heighten it for the SR boost and boom. (Dare I say, SONIC boom?) After all, it just needs to do 1pt, right?
Because most Force spells don't have Reflex half, therefore making the Save for Dazing a Will save. Our Dragon like most high level monsters will have a much higher Will save than Reflex.
Luckily there is the Havoc of Society trait, which allows you to add 1 Force damage to any of your damage spells.
By the way could one use a Wish to dispel an Anitmagic field?
Not using one of the default options, Greater/Dispel Magic wont get rid of an AMF. However you can wish for anything using Wish and removing an AMF doesn't seem excessive but is subject to GM twisting.
Why does everyone want to use Dazing metamagic on an energy damage spell? Use it on something that does Force damage (heightened MM anyone?), or even something like Ice Storm, that does part cold, part bludgeoning. Or if it must be pure energy, do sonic. Ear-piercing Scream, for instance. It's the rare creature/caster that protects against sonic damage. Heighten it for the SR boost and boom. (Dare I say, SONIC boom?) After all, it just needs to do 1pt, right?
Because most Force spells don't have Reflex half, therefore making the Save for Dazing a Will save. Our Dragon like most high level monsters will have a much higher Will save than Reflex.
Luckily there is the Havoc of Society trait, which allows you to add 1 Force damage to any of your damage spells.
By the way could one use a Wish to dispel an Anitmagic field?
You could, but as a GM I would interpret this wish and it would create a Mage's Disjunction spell and function in the same manner. I would not allow you to automatically just wish the antimagic field away.
I might be nice and increase the chance that you disjoin the antimagic field by 5-10%.
Mage's Disjunction, Analyze Dweomer and Ball Lightning won't affect the dragon if cast during time stop. Time stop will provide time to self-buff though.
Disjunction technically will as it is an area effect spell with a duration greater than the duration of the apparent rounds from Timestop. Analyze Dweomer will for the same reason. The Ball Lightning orbs will appear and sit there doing nothing until Time Stop ends and then murderise the dragon and its terrible Reflex save.
And yes Dazing Spell, Persistent Spell and Spell Perfection are all crazily powerful and given to classes which already have crazily powerful class abilities.
You are right with disjunction, though it seems weird and I don't think that what the line in Time Stop is meant to mean (that sudden effects which last for some time will happen; rather I think it's intended for stuff like Incendiery Cloud and other things that affect continuosly). Analyze Dweomer of course would work after the time stop has ended - didn't mean anything else, just that the analyzing wouldn't take place during the time stop.
If we assume the fireball-caster is dead and this is a completely new caster, the ball lightnings might prove effective, otherwise their save DC and the caster level check vs spell resistance will be too low (as spell perfection is in Fireball).
Diviner Wizard focused on Conjuration (Feats, etc)
Arrange your feats to have Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning and buy 2 or 3 metamagic rod of maximize and 1 quicken, greater and a ring of wishing, with 2-3 wishes. This will be expensive, but an ancient red dragons treasure horde is worth a lot more!
Earn the Summoning Specialization Award and add Greater Shadow (a CR 8 creature) to your SM VI summonable creatures list.
Surprise Round!:
Cast a quickened Mage's disjunction on the dragon, using metamagic rod of Greater quicken. This should eliminate most (if any) pre-cast defensive effects.
Cast Time Stop, using metamagic rod of greater maximize - 5 rounds
Time Stop set up:
Note, if you only have one rod of metamagic maximize, you will need a second time stop, with a spare maximize, greater, you will have 2d4+4= 12 shadows, + haste, + wishes in place at end of one time stop. Read over the list just to see how to set up your dozen for the win.
(Time Stop rounds 1-4) cast SM VIII four times. Summon 4d4+8 Greater Shadows. You want the all hasted later, so keep that in mind during placement.
(Time Stop round 5) cast Time Stop again, using metamagic rod of greater maximize - 5 rounds
(Time Stop rounds 1-2) cast SM VIII two times. Summon 2d4+4 Greater Shadows. Continue to This is a minimum of 18 Greater Shadows.
(Time Stop round 3) Cast Wish "I wish that all the Greater Shadows that I have summoned during these nested Time Stop spells are affected as if each of them had individually cast True Strike: a +20 on their next to hit roll"
(Time Stop round 4) cast HASTE on as many of your summoned shadows as you can affect
(Time Stop round 5) Cast Wish again "I wish that all the Greater Shadows that I have summoned during these nested Time Stop spells will do maximum strength damage on their next successful attack"
You should have a minimum of 18 greater shadows. Each attacking touch AC at a +31 bonus and doing 8 points of damage. if 1 (on average) rolls a 1, that is still 17*8 or 136 points of Str Damage. You win. This applies to every creature, ever, who cannot beat a diviner's natural 20 roll on every init check along with the other insane bonuses and does NOT have negative energy immunity.
Akinra: Using non-core material combined with custom wishes that are far outside the scope of the available wishes would seem like kind of a fail to me.
It is completely reliant on a GM that wants you to kill them or the wishes would fail (for example, both your wishes would fail since the game world doesn't have any idea what "a +20" is, or what "maximum strength damage" is), and it is also completely reliant on having access to non-core (is it setting specific? PFS specific?) material.
Also, the shadows have no way to see the dragon and will stumble around in the dark until the spell ends.
Using golarion specific skills is well within the scope set forth by the IP. When in doubt, I assume any setting is in Golarion since it is the only named setting in Pathfinder and is used for everything from Carrion Crown through Wrath of the Righteous.
Second, if you read the purpose of the wishes, they are just to counter sub-par rolls. +11 vs touch is still perfectly lovely against ancient dragons.
Third, if you read through the wish, it specifies as if the shadows had cast Truestrike on themselves, the additional portion is definitional and exists to clarify the effect.
Fourth, it relies on two books, Core, and Inner Sea World Guide. However, there are other methods to achieve the same.
Finally, 17*4.5=76.5, still well above what is needed to kill an ancient warm.
I am unsure why on earth the shadows would not be able to see a dragon, please clarify?
"Hello, Mister Red Dragon. You are a mighty wyrm, and I am a mighty wizard. We know of each other by reputation, and we find ourselves at cross purposes. If we hazard ourselves against each other, one of us shall win ... and the other shall be gravely weakened. So, let us make a wager .... "
Why does everyone want to use Dazing metamagic on an energy damage spell? Use it on something that does Force damage (heightened MM anyone?), or even something like Ice Storm, that does part cold, part bludgeoning. Or if it must be pure energy, do sonic. Ear-piercing Scream, for instance. It's the rare creature/caster that protects against sonic damage. Heighten it for the SR boost and boom. (Dare I say, SONIC boom?) After all, it just needs to do 1pt, right?
Yep
myself upthread wrote:
I might even be tempted to hit our dragon with something not "cold" or preferable untyped/not elemental to bypass presumed protections just to get him Dazed.
I would, however, make sure it allows a Reflex save and not 'Saving Throw none' as that would default to allowing a Will save to avoid the Daze. And if possible make it a 5th level+ (ideally 9th) spell to avoid any 4th level cleric spell (or related spells) - Spell Immunity issues as well. And I'm sure its a typo/typing too fast thing but to be clear Heighten boosts the Save DC, it has no effect on penetrating SR.
Right, overlooked that part. Then a spell like Ice Spears would be more the ticket then. Ref save for half, cold and piercing damage. Plus it has the added benefit of targeting a number of squares, so a foe that occupies multiple squares like a dragon can be hit multiple times. Said Great Wyrm Red Dragon would be hit five times for 10d6 cold and 10d6 piercing, Ref for half, plus a +50CMB boost on a trip attempt (successful Ref negates). Toss Dazing and Piercing Spell (you're right, I was thinking of the wrong metamagic feat) metamagics on top of that, maybe Heighten it to 9th for the Save DC boost, and you have a prone and dazed dragon with a decent chunk of HP gone to boot. I'm going to have to look at this spell for my wizard/cleric/MT, it could be fun!
Third, if you read through the wish, it specifies as if the shadows had cast Truestrike on themselves, the additional portion is definitional and exists to clarify the effect.
Then the wish is kind of pointless since they've already spent their standard action, since they are "as if they had cast Truestrike on themselves". Note that it does not necessarily grant the _benefits_ of truestrike for that matter.
The second wish does nothing without the mechanical parts.
Regardless - using any wish outside of the listed standard wishes are risky business since the spell may simply fail. And again, that opens it up to the dragon doing the same thing to get protection from the attacks.
Quote:
I am unsure why on earth the shadows would not be able to see a dragon, please clarify?
Because in a red dragon lair there'll be very heavy smoke, like that in pyrotechnics. The issue has been solved for the casters themselves through use of a Goz Mask, but that won't help the shadows.
I am unsure why on earth the shadows would not be able to see a dragon, please clarify?
Because in a red dragon lair there'll be very heavy smoke, like that in pyrotechnics. The issue has been solved for the casters themselves through use of a Goz Mask, but that won't help the shadows.
And why is it the casters are summoning shadows some miles away from the dragon, but not RIGHT NEXT TO IT, where the shadows have visibility of it?
It's smoke(think solid fog), not heightened Deeper Darkness with jamming in case of Echolocation, Blindsight, Blindsense and associates.
If you wish to be so nit-picky, would a Wish for the shadows to threaten a critical suffice(no pun intended)?
Or(to not be that greedy) the dragon to have lowered touch AC?
Joex: why would its lair have solid ground at all?
Ignitorius: smoke stops all vision including darkvision. Even if you summoned the shadows next to it they still cant see it, they dont have echolocation.
And any wish not listed among the options in the book is subject to DM approval. Lowering touch AC might work, but the dragon would still get a save and SR, so at that point you might aswellwish it to be transported to the positive energy plane or something.
