Goblin Squad Member
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Someone covered this a wee bit further down - apologies for not crediting them: This only covers the core level spell-set. Its very likely that rarer spells will appear only as drops/faction rewards/other rewards, but for new players the acquisition of what you might call 'base' spells and expendable abilities should be as simple as it is for a Pathfinder wizard. Note that in the Pathfinder TT game only non-core spells are difficult to come by. Wizards can take any core spell (level appropriate) they want when leveling up. We will end up with a similar paradigm in PFO except that it may be possible to buy scrolls of unusual spells on the auction house as well as having to earn them yourself.
Maybe that's the part I was missing, the expendable analogy with scrolls.
In TT, the first time you get a scroll, you can scribe it in your spellbook. This consumes the scroll. After that, you can decide to use that spell as many times as you want, provided they all fit in your daily alotment. BUT, if you happen to find a second scroll of that spell, it gives you an EXTRA use of that spell if you ever need it.
I was previously under the impression that further copies of an expendable was useless. If they indeed work like scrolls, giving you an extra use of that actions, then I see the economic potential.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my experience with MMOs you might have 10 or 20 abilities but only use 3 or 4 on a regular basis in most encounters. So I imagine even in an optimal PvP build 6 abilities will be plenty and the rest is just situational.
Also are all 20 of these abilities directly combat related? Because if 6 of them are just tied to my crafting professions or something then keyboard dexterity would be a non-issue there since I'd likely be standing still.
PS. I like that Cavalier is easily doable by combining Aristocrat and Fighter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also are all 20 of these abilities directly combat related? Because if 6 of them are just tied to my crafting professions or something then keyboard dexterity would be a non-issue there since I'd likely be standing still.
I'm fairly certain most folks will be switching out their Action Bar configuration when they switch between Adventuring and Crafting. Also, if you switch Roles (from Fighter to Rogue, for example) you'll likely have an entirely new set of abilities you want to slot in your Action Bar.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think once you go past about 12-14 active buttons on top of the movement keys and target tab is like asking us to play Mozart.I never liked playing Mozart. I hope they can make it like playing Bach instead?
Seriously: yes, most of us will play with one hand on the mouse (2 buttons and a wheel) and one hand on the keyboard. 3 rows of 5 keys plus tab and spacebar are ok. Anything beyond that and dedicated gaming/mmo controllers will make a noticeable difference.
I thought one of the goals of the slotting mechanism was to reduce the number of active key in combat.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to reach shift, alt, and the number keys as well.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Someone covered this a wee bit further down - apologies for not crediting them: This only covers the core level spell-set. Its very likely that rarer spells will appear only as drops/faction rewards/other rewards, but for new players the acquisition of what you might call 'base' spells and expendable abilities should be as simple as it is for a Pathfinder wizard. Note that in the Pathfinder TT game only non-core spells are difficult to come by. Wizards can take any core spell (level appropriate) they want when leveling up. We will end up with a similar paradigm in PFO except that it may be possible to buy scrolls of unusual spells on the auction house as well as having to earn them yourself.Maybe that's the part I was missing, the expendable analogy with scrolls.
In TT, the first time you get a scroll, you can scribe it in your spellbook. This consumes the scroll. After that, you can decide to use that spell as many times as you want, provided they all fit in your daily alotment. BUT, if you happen to find a second scroll of that spell, it gives you an EXTRA use of that spell if you ever need it.
I was previously under the impression that further copies of an expendable was useless. If they indeed work like scrolls, giving you an extra use of that actions, then I see the economic potential.
I see what you are saying and you are correct in the first half but not quite in the second bit...
As written, once you have learned an expendable the next one you find is effectively useless (except that you can sell it), however, we are back-and-forthing a little bit about the possibility of slotting expendables in your consumable slot for a single use of that particular power/spell (still costing you power, of course). As I say this is not actually included in the expendables system right now - it adds a level of complexity that we may not need/have time for right away - but its quite a nice wee concept.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think once you go past about 12-14 active buttons on top of the movement keys and target tab is like asking us to play Mozart.I never liked playing Mozart. I hope they can make it like playing Bach instead?
Seriously: yes, most of us will play with one hand on the mouse (2 buttons and a wheel) and one hand on the keyboard. 3 rows of 5 keys plus tab and spacebar are ok. Anything beyond that and dedicated gaming/mmo controllers will make a noticeable difference.
I thought one of the goals of the slotting mechanism was to reduce the number of active key in combat.
I'd rather have 2 swaps than 30 keys to hit at once. I know i'm not alone and I know that I'm not saying this because "I suck". I am of average dexterity and hand eye coordination just like 80% of the people who will play this game (funny how most people believe they are either great or terrible and how few think they are average). There is a reason why the latest wave of MMO's like GW2 and NWO have gone the way they have and become popular with it. MMO's are games we play for hours on end.
Yes I can use my pinky. No I don't want to feel pain after a gaming session.
Firstly, I can confidently say that we are not trying to distract players with overwhelming button presses to hide poor graphics and missing features. Nice trick though - I wish we'd thought of it.
On the question of interface complexity - It has probably not been clear enough yet and will need to wait for a sort of round by round combat blog post (or better yet maybe some combat footage in a couple of quarters time!) but we are certainly keen to keep things as neat and clean as possible. You will not be using anything like all of these abilities in a spammy fashion. You will focus on the use of 6-8 abilities in round to round combat, adding a smattering of a possible 6 more throughout the duration of a full combat.
Two of my main goals in wireframing our interface are 1) avoiding players 'playing the bar' instead of focusing on combat in front of them and 2) minimizing the keyboard yoga required to play with keys.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Someone covered this a wee bit further down - apologies for not crediting them: This only covers the core level spell-set. Its very likely that rarer spells will appear only as drops/faction rewards/other rewards, but for new players the acquisition of what you might call 'base' spells and expendable abilities should be as simple as it is for a Pathfinder wizard. Note that in the Pathfinder TT game only non-core spells are difficult to come by. Wizards can take any core spell (level appropriate) they want when leveling up. We will end up with a similar paradigm in PFO except that it may be possible to buy scrolls of unusual spells on the auction house as well as having to earn them yourself.Maybe that's the part I was missing, the expendable analogy with scrolls.
In TT, the first time you get a scroll, you can scribe it in your spellbook. This consumes the scroll. After that, you can decide to use that spell as many times as you want, provided they all fit in your daily alotment. BUT, if you happen to find a second scroll of that spell, it gives you an EXTRA use of that spell if you ever need it.
I was previously under the impression that further copies of an expendable was useless. If they indeed work like scrolls, giving you an extra use of that actions, then I see the economic potential.
I see what you are saying and you are correct in the first half but not quite in the second bit...
As written, once you have learned an expendable the next one you find is effectively useless (except that you can sell it), however, we are back-and-forthing a little bit about the possibility of slotting expendables in your consumable slot for a single use of that particular power/spell (still costing you power, of course). As I say this is not actually included in the expendables system right now - it adds a level of complexity that we may not need/have time for right away - but its quite a nice wee concept.
I think it might make more sense for there to exist some one-use items that can be also used to learn an ability, rather than having something intended to learn an ability be usable as a one-off. A scroll can be used to create a spellbook page for little cost, but turning a spellbook page into a scroll costs as much as the scroll. That doesn't matter much for Magic Missile, but the faucet for spellbook pages of Wail of the Banshee should be separate from the faucet for scrolls of the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Firstly, I can confidently say that we are not trying to distract players with overwhelming button presses to hide poor graphics and missing features. Nice trick though - I wish we'd thought of it.On the question of interface complexity - It has probably not been clear enough yet and will need to wait for a sort of round by round combat blog post (or better yet maybe some combat footage in a couple of quarters time!) but we are certainly keen to keep things as neat and clean as possible. You will not be using anything like all of these abilities in a spammy fashion. You will focus on the use of 6-8 abilities in round to round combat, adding a smattering of a possible 6 more throughout the duration of a full combat.
Two of my main goals in wireframing our interface are 1) avoiding players 'playing the bar' instead of focusing on combat in front of them and 2) minimizing the keyboard yoga required to play with keys.
Thank you sir! Most reassuring! Both of those points are EXACTLY what I am most interested in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Power probably needs a better name; it's not Mana, it's long-term Stamina...
Fortitude, maybe? Exertion? Constitution? (Not to be confused with the old school constitution)
I like it. Sounds like fun. Twenty or so buttons with a lot of preselected variety sounds like a good number. Some games get out of hand with the number of options available.
The inns just got more valuable with the food buff regeneration. Might throw in campsites, gypsy camps, etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Power probably needs a better name; it's not Mana, it's long-term Stamina...Fortitude, maybe? Exertion? Constitution? (Not to be confused with the old school constitution)
I like it. Sounds like fun. Twenty or so buttons with a lot of preselected variety sounds like a good number. Some games get out of hand with the number of options available.
The inns just got more valuable with the food buff regeneration. Might throw in campsites, gypsy camps, etc...
Grit? Action Points?
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Goblin Squad Member
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mystic theurge is already a nerfed class. WHile having access to divine and arcane presents flexibility, it is at the cost of 1.5 to 2 level of spells. MT does not gain spell before advancing to level 8 character which is only 5th arcane and divine caster ( about 9 spells each) vs 16 for a single class character including 3 that are higher than the MT can cast. THe flexibility does provide some benefits, but only if they can be launched at will. Worth even less at beginning of combat has a cool down after bless before prayer before an offensive spell (vs two characters launching spells separately)) this becomes a useless.
It does get better at higher level, but a single class/role will be better tag vs the -2 levelas MT. Can be useful in small parties that can not have mage and divine. can be useful I'n large party as utility caster, but cool down will further cripple casting.
MT is fun to play, but needs to launch spells quickly to provide two capabilities. Cool down makes this not worth playing.
The paradigm of learning an 'Expendable' Ability/Feat by fighting an NPC/PC is interesting...
Perhaps the game logic determining what 'Expendable' Abilities are eligible to 'drop' could take into account what abilities that opponent ACTUALLY used in that specific fight, i.e. not drawing from ALL of their abilities (which they may not have used or even slotted for several months) but only the ones you 'witnessed' are eligible to learn from.
That you can choose to 'thread' these abilities, not to prevent losing them (you learn them permanently) but to prevent others being able to learn them if they defeat you is interesting.
I do think there might be room for something like an equivalent of 'Assassination' here: either thru Assassination or a wholly distinct mechanism, one actually COULD 'steal' somebody's 'Expendable' Ability and remove that from said character's repertoire... Perhaps with the same limitation that it only works vs. 'Expendable' Abilities that they used in the battle, and 'Threading' the abilities gives them further protection? Obviously that would need significant limitations and costs to keep things under control.
So the idea behind 'Power' regeneration is that it only works while you are logged in?
Or would it also work while you are logged out? (if you did so in an eligible location)
If Power is something that does not reset when you are killed and resurrected, I think that is a clear invitation to give it a name and 'fluff' context which connects it with PFO's Pharasman Resurrection conceit, i.e. that this is Soul Power tied to your Soul and that is why it doesn't reset since the Soul is relatively eternal/indivisable. (That also opens the door for Assassination style attacks which steal/evaporate some of that Power so that when they die they return rathe weaker for the near term)
Are Power-using actions also likely to have 'conventional' Stamina requirements as well?
Power-> Epic/Mortal Power, Essence, ???
'Expendable' is also a bit confusing of a term for discussing cool-down abilities, it is evocative of, and should be used for 'Expendable ITEMS'.
Possibly the name of this category of actions could be tied into the name used to 'count' that pool,
e.g. Mortal Power, Essence, etc -> Mortal Feat, Essence Feats, etc...???
That was just all I had off the top of my head, but I think a good terminology tying the mechanics and 'game terms' into the story background can work well.
@Lam: I don't think this is the forum for discussing the minutae of build dynamics in the tabletop game.
GW is going for the flavor and concept of the tabletop not exact mechanics.
Not to mention you seem to have overlooked how tabletop's SLA FAQ radically reduced entry requirements for MT for those willing to play the SLA game.
GW hypothesizing how MT like dynamics can work well in their current framework of dual Implement slots (Spellbook+Holy Symbol)
just doesn't really have much bearing to how MT worked out in the Core tabletop game...
What they've described here in the blog indicates that these mechanics will be broadly similar across many more Roles,
so I don't see any reason why GW's 'MT build' would be more problematic than any other approach to filling those two slots:
pretty much all the Class Roles, whether traditional 'caster' or not,
seem set to use a long term 'pooled cooldown' + optional per encounter mechanic to achieve balance.
What they wrote about MT seems more on par with simply tweaking a build to remain optimally on par with a single class role build,
and similar concerns will likely exist for those trying to combine e.g. Fighter and Rogue abilities,
certainly Wizard + Cleric abilities will have their own particular synergies and related trade offs,
but that's not outside the scope that should be expected for any cross-role (or multiclass) build, IMHO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Goblin Balls?Goblin Balls
Oh, I'm familiar with the thread and term. I was suggesting it as a replacement term for Power :)
It could be like the word smurf. Can't find a suitable alternative word for something...insert smurf!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Someone covered this a wee bit further down - apologies for not crediting them: This only covers the core level spell-set. Its very likely that rarer spells will appear only as drops/faction rewards/other rewards, but for new players the acquisition of what you might call 'base' spells and expendable abilities should be as simple as it is for a Pathfinder wizard. Note that in the Pathfinder TT game only non-core spells are difficult to come by. Wizards can take any core spell (level appropriate) they want when levelling up. We will end up with a similar paradigm in PFO except that it may be possible to buy scrolls of unusual spells on the auction house as well as having to earn them yourself.While I understand the rationale behind this (at least I think I do), this sadly takes away one of the most fun areas of playing a wizard for me - the search for spells. If everything is easily obtainable then that takes all the fun out of the "wizard as spell collector" archetype, and it is actually worse than training say fighter feats because at least with those you have to find somewhere that is willing to train you. If these expendables are common enough for all new players to have reasonable access to them, it will be trivial for any wizard (or indeed any player) who has been playing for a while to be able to buy up every spell in the book. No fun in searching for that "lost" spell as it will just be a random drop, and a good chance that all the casters who want to will have all the same spells at their disposal, something I'd hoped PFO would avoid. Of course, if the spells aren't available in some form or other, the newbies are screwed.
I was hoping that spells would initially be drip fed into the game through gaining access by players increasing reputation with certain groups, a few PvE drops, and perhaps later (way after MVP) by research. Later, people would of course be learning by getting consumables from PvP and writing them into spell books at great cost. It seems wrong that there'll be nothing research in libraries or hunting down a mage because you want his spell books. Even trading expendables with friends and allies will feel more like trading MtG cards than sharing spell research (and remember those costs - this "spell research" trade is not free, you'd still have to pay for transferring the spell, unlike the potentially exploitable blue on blue for a "freebie").
This system just feels weird to me. But then it's late, I've been away for a couple of weeks and I've probably misunderstood something. Please point out where I'm wrong.
Thank you for addressing this. I know it is only personal preference (I've never been one for the automatic spell gain on levelling either, be it as a player or a DM), but I also think that it will remove a part of the game I was looking forward to, the finding and trading of spells, unless that core spell list is somewhat limited. I understand it perfectly from an MVP point of view; I hope, however, that going forward when the somewhat limited number of MVP spells is expanded that this can be looked at again.
I am somewhat mollified by the news that there will be drops, faction rewards and so on for less usual spells. Being a wizard is potentially one of the most powerful roles in PFO just as it is in TT. They (we) should be made to work for new spells, not just have them all handed over on a plate.* I am glad to hear that at least some of them will be a little harder to get.
*This is not about balancing roles, because a) GW have already said they are not going to bother too much about it and b) having a "gate" (hard to find spells) does nothing to balance those who have already found them. It's more about providing interest for those who play wizards and creating further opportunities for that meaningful human interaction we keep hearing about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, I'm familiar with the thread and term. I was suggesting it as a replacement term for Power :)
It could be like the word smurf. Can't find a suitable alternative word for something...insert smurf!
Except that saying 'goblin balls' only has the effect of sounding dumb, while "smurf" is the verbal component to a transmutation spell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think once you go past about 12-14 active buttons on top of the movement keys and target tab is like asking us to play Mozart.I never liked playing Mozart. I hope they can make it like playing Bach instead?I'll get Bach at you for that.
You better get a Handel on that before it gets out of control.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, I'm familiar with the thread and term. I was suggesting it as a replacement term for Power :)Goblin Balls?Goblin Balls
Heh, sorry, I didn't check the context before jumping at the chance to link something :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lam: I don't think this is the forum for discussing the minutae of build dynamics in the tabletop game.
GW is going for the flavor and concept of the tabletop not exact mechanics.
This blog is about dynamic of casters. It is proposed to have cooldown on magic use.
It was Stephen Cheney ( link ) who had said he thought this (MT) was a playable combination.
As a cleric (not even MT), there are often several long running spells (some minutes long), e.g. buffs and protection spells, that need to be launched at the beginning of an encounter. Devs do not want to have casters run out of spells, but preventing proper use of magic will nerf the casters.
The MT is an example of a caster with al lot of spells, but not many very powerful relative to caster level. THis is not one of the original 4 roles. But prestige role requires little additional programing if there are arcane and divine casters defined.
I do not think it is appropriate to discuss effects of cooldown on roles discussed by devs in this thread.
The synergies seem to be that stamina that one role consumes retards the other roles from doing what would have been possible in TT. Secondly, cool down on one activity will reduce effectiveness of an other role.
Do "Cleave" or "Whirlwind Attacks" reduce stamina to the point there are cool downs. If a fighter role performs a "Whirlwind Attack" does this limit when her mage role can cast a spell or when his rogue can "Lightening Stance"?
Multi-role characters are nerfed by lower maximum ability level per role versus a dedicated single role character. THis seems to propose to further nerd them by preventing use of the second role because the first role did something big (opening space free from AoO for caster to cast.
This is not about TT, but PFO is to be more like TT than the MMO, not than having rogue glass canons that sneak up on anyone and strike for conceal.ed without help (as are found in MMO but not in TT). If there can be discussion that PFO is not delivering on MMO style, it should also be valid to discuss how PFO is not true to its TT model.
lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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Magic and mundane in maneuvers
I do not think we need to make fighters, rogues, aristocrats and experts (among others) "mini-mages" to implement the implements. As long as we keep high end reality altering stuff like invisibility, teleportation and total immunities outside the scope of maneuvers, it should be possible to come up with fitting description for maneuvers without the need to resort to the "it's a kinda magic" -explanation. Some examples:
* fighter's self buffing: memories of a long fallen hero/vicious warcry inspiring you to [whatever]
* rogue's bag of tricks: actual poisons and alchemical and mechanical tricks allowing you to [whatever]
* aristocrat's banner/warhorn buffs: actual banner/warhorn the sight/hearing of which improves your companions' [whatever]
* experts toolkit: an actual toolkit allowing you to fix / damage [whatever]
* commoner's holdout weapon: an actual weapon allowing you to [whatever]
Spells overpowering maneuvers
If spellcasting is going to be a viable career choice it would seem likely that a some point in the power curve the spells would need to become significantly more powerful than the maneuvers. The logic behind this would be the following:
* for fighters and rogues' maneuvers are "extras", i.e. something on top of their standard capabilities
* for spellcasters spells [are expected to] require significant opportunity costs, which [should] make spellcasters significantly weaker compared to the the more mundane roles without their spells
* hence if spells are not significantly stronger than maneuvers, spellcasters will never be able to contribute on the same level as fighters and rogues
The easiest way to ensure that this while at the same time ensuring that everyone would (at least for several years) not roll with spellcaster implements would seem to be to:
* have different power curves for maneuvers and spells: whereas maneuvers would have a declining power curve (meaning that "higher tier" maneuvers would only be slightly better than lower tier maneuvers), spells would start out as relatively weak but have an increasing power curve (meaning that in higher tiers they would be significantly more powerful than maneuvers)
* make the ability to use an implement dependent on the investment to the role, to which it relates, meaning that high level spells would only be usable by those having focused on training the specific role, to which the implement relates (meaning that if you would like to have the option to e.g. freely choose any implement you want, you would need to train all roles near to the max level, which would take many, many years -and bring an ton of money to Goblinworks)
As a side effect this type of a ower curve (mundane classes stronger at low levels) should encourage players to start with training the mundane roles (as they would be stronger the lower levels which would hopefully result in more mundane than magical roles in the battlefields.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Fruben. I agree. I hope I read correctly that is what GW's intention with spells is (apart from useful bread & butter Cantrips).
@Keovar: One for you:
Cantrip is a word of Scots origin to mean a magical spell of any kind, or one which reads the same forwards and backwards. It can also be a witch's trick, or a sham. It is possibly derived from the Gaelic canntaireachd, a piper's mnemonic chant
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except that saying 'goblin balls' only has the effect of sounding dumb, while "smurf" is the verbal component to a transmutation spell.Oh, I'm familiar with the thread and term. I was suggesting it as a replacement term for Power :)
It could be like the word smurf. Can't find a suitable alternative word for something...insert smurf!
According to Gargamel it's the material component.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is still the plan to have scrolls in the traditional tabletop sense, which go into your consumable/wondrous slots. The "scrolls" you get to learn Wizard spells will likely be called something different enough to avoid confusion. The consumable scrolls will probably be balanced against things like potions, alchemist's fire, etc. rather than spells, so may not be directly equivalent.
Why would they need to be different items? You need certain materials to scribe a scroll into your book, so why not just have a 'scribe kit' item which, when combined with a scroll, puts the spell into book form? The same scroll in a consumable slot would function like a potion or whatever.
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How possible is it for a dedicated bookbinder/wizard to build a fairly expansive spell book? You mentioned the creation of a 6/24 spellbook, and while understanding that there is a balance reason, in TT base spellbooks have 100 pages, and traveling spellbooks have 50. Is it ever going to be possible for a wizard in PfO to have, say, a 7/100 spellbook? How does book crafting work for the inclusion of more pages even if they aren't necessarily of highish level? Is there any intent to give access to the Cypher Magic feat in some kind of mechanical form?
I'm sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but I tend to play wizards in TT and plan to play one in PfO. New Thassilon shall rise if I have anything to say about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How possible is it for a dedicated bookbinder/wizard to build a fairly expansive spell book? You mentioned the creation of a 6/24 spellbook, and while understanding that there is a balance reason, in TT base spellbooks have 100 pages, and traveling spellbooks have 50. Is it ever going to be possible for a wizard in PfO to have, say, a 7/100 spellbook? How does book crafting work for the inclusion of more pages even if they aren't necessarily of highish level? Is there any intent to give access to the Cypher Magic feat in some kind of mechanical form?
I'm sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but I tend to play wizards in TT and plan to play one in PfO. New Thassilon shall rise if I have anything to say about it.
I would suggest you post these questions in the stickied thread at the top of the forums dedicated to sets of questions like this. If you're lucky, and the devs like your questions, you just might get an answer. :)