Goblinworks Blog: By the Time I Lose It, I'm Not Afraid


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Goblin Squad Member

20 buttons to mash swapping into 36. Ugh. That's about twice what I consider ideal. That many buttons is just flat out unhealthy imo. Asking for RSI.

It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.

Goblin Squad Member

So what is considered a "combat" for refreshing spells? In large battles you could be in combat for a very long time.

Also, regenerating power in a settlement seems like another huge bonus for defenders.

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:

The item would be consumed by someone learning the expendable. I don't see that it would necessarily 'flood the market' more than anything coming from other faucets, like coin, crafting materials, crafted items...

"have a chance" could mean any probability greater than 0 and less than 1. It can be balanced.

Expendables are only consumed once per player. As soon as every single player has consumed one type of an expendable, all further drops of that type are useless. In other words, without a proper sink, any drop chance above 0% creates an inflating system...

Goblinworks Game Designer

avari3 wrote:
It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.

Perhaps you could expand on that Avari?

Goblinworks Game Designer

CaptnB wrote:
Wurner wrote:

The item would be consumed by someone learning the expendable. I don't see that it would necessarily 'flood the market' more than anything coming from other faucets, like coin, crafting materials, crafted items...

"have a chance" could mean any probability greater than 0 and less than 1. It can be balanced.

Expendables are only consumed once per player. As soon as every single player has consumed one type of an expendable, all further drops of that type are useless. In other words, without a proper sink, any drop chance above 0% creates an inflating system...

This is true. However, there should be a constant stream of new players. In addition, MOST expendable feats are designed to be just as accessible as weapon feats, so they need to be pretty readily available.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Tork Shaw

Forgive if this was already addressed in the blog or here somewhere. I am flying through my day on very little sleep. :)

Will the system recognize that I already have a certain expendable and not drop the same one multiple times, and/or worst case scenario: will they be tradable items?

Goblin Squad Member

Tork Shaw wrote:
MOST expendable feats are designed to be just as accessible as weapon feats, so they need to be pretty readily available.

If most expendables shall be "readily available", there won't be a huge market: too much offer for very little demand. Expendables will just become junk loot.

By selling expendables through NPCs you at least get another coin sink to control inflation.

Goblin Squad Member

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avari3 wrote:

20 buttons to mash swapping into 36. Ugh. That's about twice what I consider ideal. That many buttons is just flat out unhealthy imo. Asking for RSI.

It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.

There are 2 things to consider:

First, Stamina will limit the number of buttons you can click per round. So extra buttons will be circumstantial at best.

Second, to get all the buttons active, you'll need to be fully equipped, making you a tempting target.

Players will have to ponder if an extra button is really worth the risk of losing the associated equipment when dying. I'm expecting hardcore PvPers focusing on a limited set of buttons that synergize well together while limiting the equipment they put at risk.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Rafkin wrote:

So what is considered a "combat" for refreshing spells? In large battles you could be in combat for a very long time.

Also, regenerating power in a settlement seems like another huge bonus for defenders.

I'm sure there will be 'siege camps' and 'field rations' available to construct/produce once large-scale combat reaches that point. A field kitchen could be part of a special caravan and a siege camp a temporary POI. These would provide Power rejuv buffs to besieging armies. Both would be targets for destruction by sortie/relief operations.

Goblin Squad Member

I'd like an expendables clip in my backpack so I can always have a round chambered.

Goblin Squad Member

CaptnB wrote:
avari3 wrote:

20 buttons to mash swapping into 36. Ugh. That's about twice what I consider ideal. That many buttons is just flat out unhealthy imo. Asking for RSI.

It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.

There are 2 things to consider:

First, Stamina will limit the number of buttons you can click per round. So extra buttons will be circumstantial at best.

Second, to get all the buttons active, you'll need to be fully equipped, making you a tempting target.

Players will have to ponder if an extra button is really worth the risk of losing the associated equipment when dying. I'm expecting hardcore PvPers focusing on a limited set of buttons that synergize well together while limiting the equipment they put at risk.

Not to mention you choose your role, then what abilities to train, then what things to slot-all with an eye on different synergies and tradeoffs. In combat to be most effective you'll have to balance both stamina and Power as you perform each move and countermove. Yeah, can't just proclaim the system boring without quite a bit o' explanation.

Goblin Squad Member

CaptnB wrote:
avari3 wrote:

20 buttons to mash swapping into 36. Ugh. That's about twice what I consider ideal. That many buttons is just flat out unhealthy imo. Asking for RSI.

It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.

There are 2 things to consider:

First, Stamina will limit the number of buttons you can click per round. So extra buttons will be circumstantial at best.

Second, to get all the buttons active, you'll need to be fully equipped, making you a tempting target.

Players will have to ponder if an extra button is really worth the risk of losing the associated equipment when dying. I'm expecting hardcore PvPers focusing on a limited set of buttons that synergize well together while limiting the equipment they put at risk.

So why have them then? I think once you go past about 12-14 active buttons on top of the movement keys and target tab is like asking us to play Mozart. How many buttons does an X-box controller have? 10? You hold that with 2 hands.

Goblin Squad Member

Tork Shaw wrote:
avari3 wrote:
It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.
Perhaps you could expand on that Avari?

It sounds like you want to keep us really busy mashing every key on the keyboard so we don't notice the lack of physics engines and other spiffy stuff other games have out there.

I dunno, prove me wrong. I'm open.

Goblin Squad Member

Twenty buttons really isn't that many to have to be able to press. That is on the low side for the majority of games these days. My old World of Warcraft character easily had over forty action slots filled, and I was on the conservative side for an arena player.

It isn't that much to ask that you occasionally have to press down your pinky to hit a modifier key.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Morbis wrote:

Twenty buttons really isn't that many to have to be able to press. That is on the low side for the majority of games these days. My old World of Warcraft character easily had over forty action slots filled, and I was on the conservative side for an arena player.

It isn't that much to ask that you occasionally have to press down your pinky to hit a modifier key.

It's 20+ the movement keys and targets. We're talking about 30 actually. What you are describing is exactly why i hated WoW and SwtoR. I prefer paired down and more interactive like DDO or GW2. I was hoping PFO copmbat would revolve more around the 6 second decisions than managing 36 abilities.

Goblin Squad Member

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Having access to 20 abilities at a time is not the same as having to spam half the keys on your keyboard. 6 different weapon skills - one more than weapons have in GW2, and then you can swap to a second one. 6 implement actions which are basically one-shots, your buffs and debuffs and emergency abilities - or, if you're a caster, it is spells. You don't spam these, you hit them under special circumstances to give yourself an edge. (And these swap to another set as well, perhaps to something that compliments your secondary weapon.)
2 utility actions - pretty sure this a bit of a catch-all for things any character can hold, but again, nothing to get spammed. Options
2 consumable slots - circumstantial boosts/heals, again, not something you have to hit all day. Options
2 situational actions - in the name, these are again, circumstantial things that you don't hit all day.
and then yet another situational pair with your boot and glove activations.

That's a lot of options, no argument there. But I'd be surprised if none of those are passive bonuses that you have to put into a slot(even if they did just say these are all activated, I doubt that will be entirely stuck to) - maybe to be triggered like the Signets in GW2 for an extra bonus.

I like options - to me, this doesn't sound like you need to hit keys like a mad-man to operate generally, just that you get to have several options on how to handle various situations.

Actually, from the sounds of things to me, I expect this to play quite a bit like GW2 the majority of the time, but you're less likely to die because every single option you have is suddenly on cooldown.

I do hope that the mode changes in the keys are toggleable, rather than having to press alt+1 simultaneously to access an option. (Though as a short-hand, that could be a useful alternative to completely switching modes.)

Goblin Squad Member

Good Q&A by avari3 and Keign. :)

Goblin Squad Member

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I might be wrong but I remember something about having enough staminna for 3-4 actions per round. Since a round is 6 sec., that gives you plenty of time to click buttons with your mouse instead of the keyboard.

As to why we need more than 12-14 active buttons, well I guess it's both a matter of preference and situation. I'm sure we'll have out of combat actions like long term buffs or gathering skills. Those are buttons you don't need in combat.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

CaptnB wrote:
I might be wrong but I remember something about having enough staminna for 3-4 actions per round. Since a round is 6 sec., that gives you plenty of time to click buttons with your mouse instead of the keyboard.

Ya, it depends on the actions, but 3 is a rough estimate (subject to change).

Stephen Cheney wrote:

As previously described, 20 Stamina is the usual cost for a 1.5 second attack, which lets you use up your 60 total Stamina to make three attacks (and have a second and a half left over for moving and to account for potential lag).

But we're doing some fiddling with the Stamina mechanism based on the last playtest, which we'll hopefully be able to talk about soon, so I wouldn't get too locked into that assumption :) .

Presumably there may be attacks that take more than 1.5 seconds or less and have a different stamina cost, but we don't know for sure.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Let's consider what we can do with only 1-6, alt, and shift. None of those are a reach from the 'gamers homerow' of WASD.

Six weapon abilities, six implement abilities, and six other abilities. Sounds like 1-6, alt1-6, and shift 1-6. Q and E fit well as swapping keys.

Downside: alt-1 requires dexterity to hit while holding WD; continuing to move while activating an ability is hard.

There is no way to resolve the dexterity problem, even though certain hardware can help.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
There is no way to resolve the dexterity problem, even though certain hardware can help.

Certain Hardware

With my Nostromo, it is trivial for me to hit Ctrl-Alt-8 or Alt-Shift-4, so I have very easy access to 11 keys * 6 states (none, Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Ctrl-Alt, Alt-Shift). Usually, I use 3 states for abilities (none, Alt, Alt-Shift), another for targeting party members and mobs (Ctrl), another for changing hotkey bars (Shift), and another for toggling UI panels (Ctrl-Alt).

Goblin Squad Member

To break this down some, this is how I would expect to have my keyboard set up to access all of these options.

(I use the Numpad for abilities because... well, because of MUDs, honestly. Works for me, but I'm comfortable swapping between keyboard and mouse. Yes, I'm just making abilities up.)

Weapons - Greatsword / Bow
7 - Strike, 8 - Fight Defensively, 9 - Full Attack
4 - Power Attack, 5 - Cleave, 6 - Charge
Num/ To Swap to Bow
7 - Standard Fire, 8 - Entangling Arrow, 9 - Smoke Arrow
4 - Rapid Shot, 5 - Long Shot, 6 - Power Shot/Deadly Aim

Implements - Lucky Rabbit's Foot / War Banner
NumEnter+7 - Crit Chance Boost, NumEnter+8 - Accuracy Boost, NumEnter+9 - Demoralize
NumEnter+4 - Defense Boost, NumEnter+5 - Speed Buff, NumEnter+6 - Crit Damage Boost

Num* To Swap to War Banner
NumEnter+7 - Boost Defenses (Area), NumEnter+8 - Boost Accuracy (Area), NumEnter+9 - Boost Damage (Area)
NumEnter+4 - Boost Speed (Area), NumEnter+5 - Demoralize (Area), NumEnter+6 - Crit Chance Boost (Area)

Utilities/Consumables
1 - Observation, 2 - Versatility
NumEnter+1 - Healing Potion, NumEnter+2 - Healing Potion

Situational/Gear Actions
3 - Full Defense Mode
0 - Evasive Roll
NumEnter+3 - Boots of Speed
NumEnter+0 - Gloves of Arrow Snaring

And... that's it. Funny, I thought I'd run out of things to place.

For the record, none of this is guaranteed to even exist, but I believe it is mostly accurate to how the system is planned to work. (Other than my complete change of the keybindings they've mentioned in the blog.)

Goblin Squad Member

Keign wrote:

Having access to 20 abilities at a time is not the same as having to spam half the keys on your keyboard. 6 different weapon skills - one more than weapons have in GW2, and then you can swap to a second one. 6 implement actions which are basically one-shots, your buffs and debuffs and emergency abilities - or, if you're a caster, it is spells. You don't spam these, you hit them under special circumstances to give yourself an edge. (And these swap to another set as well, perhaps to something that compliments your secondary weapon.)

2 utility actions - pretty sure this a bit of a catch-all for things any character can hold, but again, nothing to get spammed. Options
2 consumable slots - circumstantial boosts/heals, again, not something you have to hit all day. Options
2 situational actions - in the name, these are again, circumstantial things that you don't hit all day.
and then yet another situational pair with your boot and glove activations.

That's a lot of options, no argument there. But I'd be surprised if none of those are passive bonuses that you have to put into a slot(even if they did just say these are all activated, I doubt that will be entirely stuck to) - maybe to be triggered like the Signets in GW2 for an extra bonus.

I like options - to me, this doesn't sound like you need to hit keys like a mad-man to operate generally, just that you get to have several options on how to handle various situations.

Actually, from the sounds of things to me, I expect this to play quite a bit like GW2 the majority of the time, but you're less likely to die because every single option you have is suddenly on cooldown.

I do hope that the mode changes in the keys are toggleable, rather than having to press alt+1 simultaneously to access an option. (Though as a short-hand, that could be a useful alternative to completely switching modes.)

I like having options also. Don't get me wrong I also find GW2 seems a bit limited after a while (and Neverwinter Online which is what I meant instead of DDO). I don't like the sound of micro managing 36 abilities either though, I'd prefer something in between. When you are managing 36 abilities and their cooldowns you are not reacting, strategically or twitch wise.

Some have mentioned that most people will be simplify it but I have yet to see a game that offers you so many actives that isn't expecting you to go through them to be effective.

What was I expecting? Not sure really, GW's to blow me away with their genius as usual I guess. Have to go but will try to put it in words later.

Goblin Squad Member

If aristocrats are providing party buffing capability through banners/warhorns, does this infer that the aristocrat role is a replacement for TT bard role?

Goblin Squad Member

I like the variety going on here, I'm anxious to see how this all interacts with parties in-game.

Goblin Squad Member

@Kelpie, it may be used as such as a placeholder, I'd guess. Aristos, iirc, are focused on leadership and social skills. I had thought they were (mostly) a non-adventuring class, but it sounds like they'll have some specific combat abilities.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Kelpie wrote:
If aristocrats are providing party buffing capability through banners/warhorns, does this infer that the aristocrat role is a replacement for TT bard role?

I sincerely hope not". I'm looking forward to playing my bard-trained, theatre rat sorceress!

Goblin Squad Member

I wonder, are Aristocrat, Expert, and Commoner roles as well as the other 4, or are they simply some lesser subset of abilities?

Goblin Squad Member

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They look like additional roles, Shane. It sounds like they'll have dedication bonuses, for example (bolding for emphasis).

Blog: Are you experienced? wrote:

We've talked a lot about the roles of the game that are derived from Pathfinder's adventuring classes, but we haven't yet mentioned that the same idea also extends to reusing some of the NPC classes from the tabletop game. Specifically, players may pursue three additional roles:

Commoners focus on gathering and harvesting skills.
Experts focus on refining and crafting skills.
Aristocrats focus on leadership and social skills.

Each of these roles requires improving multiple skills, and grants access to bonuses that are unavailable to players who only focus on a small number of skills in addition to their combat feats. Increasing these roles is a great idea for players that want to focus on acquiring resources, manufacturing goods, or leading settlements and armies. Particularly for players that don't engage in a lot of combat, raising these roles provides a structured way to improve at other parts of the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Tork Shaw wrote:
CaptnB wrote:
Wurner wrote:

The item would be consumed by someone learning the expendable. I don't see that it would necessarily 'flood the market' more than anything coming from other faucets, like coin, crafting materials, crafted items...

"have a chance" could mean any probability greater than 0 and less than 1. It can be balanced.

Expendables are only consumed once per player. As soon as every single player has consumed one type of an expendable, all further drops of that type are useless. In other words, without a proper sink, any drop chance above 0% creates an inflating system...
This is true. However, there should be a constant stream of new players. In addition, MOST expendable feats are designed to be just as accessible as weapon feats, so they need to be pretty readily available.

While I understand the rationale behind this (at least I think I do), this sadly takes away one of the most fun areas of playing a wizard for me - the search for spells. If everything is easily obtainable then that takes all the fun out of the "wizard as spell collector" archetype, and it is actually worse than training say fighter feats because at least with those you have to find somewhere that is willing to train you. If these expendables are common enough for all new players to have reasonable access to them, it will be trivial for any wizard (or indeed any player) who has been playing for a while to be able to buy up every spell in the book. No fun in searching for that "lost" spell as it will just be a random drop, and a good chance that all the casters who want to will have all the same spells at their disposal, something I'd hoped PFO would avoid. Of course, if the spells aren't available in some form or other, the newbies are screwed.

I was hoping that spells would initially be drip fed into the game through gaining access by players increasing reputation with certain groups, a few PvE drops, and perhaps later (way after MVP) by research. Later, people would of course be learning by getting consumables from PvP and writing them into spell books at great cost. It seems wrong that there'll be nothing research in libraries or hunting down a mage because you want his spell books. Even trading expendables with friends and allies will feel more like trading MtG cards than sharing spell research (and remember those costs - this "spell research" trade is not free, you'd still have to pay for transferring the spell, unlike the potentially exploitable blue on blue for a "freebie").

This system just feels weird to me. But then it's late, I've been away for a couple of weeks and I've probably misunderstood something. Please point out where I'm wrong.

Goblin Squad Member

This is something that would be happening right out the gate. Once wizards get to higher levels and start gaining access to those high level nuke spells acquiring them will be more along the lines of the process you describe. After all, once we're all in-game, they say player feedback will be crucial to how the game is built from that point on.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:

Hmm... wondering how quickly/often weapon swapping would be allowed? One character concept I had in mind would have been something of a Mystic Theurge type of build. Limitations in swapping implements during combat would hinder that. But if they are able to be swapped with some form of cool-down (such as in guild wars 2) then the concept would be very viable.

I do not have a clear understanding of everything (had surgery monday and a bit under the influence of painkiller) but from what I am following it seems like a very deep and rich system. Looking forward to playing mix and match with all of these systems... after suitable levels of training, of course.

Hopefully if the use mystic theurge as a prestige class, it would include a spellbook/holy symbol hybrid so you don't have to swap.

Goblin Squad Member

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Lhan wrote:
...the search for spells.

Oh, the mix of good and bad memories. My brother was the DM as we migrated our White Box D&D campaign to AD&D as those books were being published my last year of high school; he thought low-level campaigns were the most fun, and he very definitely thought the mage--his brother--should have to hunt for his spells.

By the time I left for college, I was a fourth-level Illusionist, with 5 hit points, and a grand total of four spells to my name...none of them an actual illusion. I still have my character sheet and all the dungeon maps I drew: trophies of a lost age of playing D&D daily.


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avari3 wrote:
Pax Morbis wrote:

Twenty buttons really isn't that many to have to be able to press. That is on the low side for the majority of games these days. My old World of Warcraft character easily had over forty action slots filled, and I was on the conservative side for an arena player.

It isn't that much to ask that you occasionally have to press down your pinky to hit a modifier key.

It's 20+ the movement keys and targets. We're talking about 30 actually. What you are describing is exactly why i hated WoW and SwtoR. I prefer paired down and more interactive like DDO or GW2. I was hoping PFO copmbat would revolve more around the 6 second decisions than managing 36 abilities.

I noticed you referenced GW2. The system seems like an expanded version of their system IMO. However, either of us could be right. I'll explain:

At one time in PFO we have 12 potentially actively used skills, then 8 more situational ones. 6 of the first 12 are tied to a daily resource pool. Guild Wars 2 had 10 (plus other skills depending on the profession obviously) skills, but they seemed mostly spammable with short cooldowns besides the elite skill or occasional utility. (I recognize you understand all of this, just putting it out there for comparison and emphasis).

If most of the 20 skills are like those spammable ones in Guild Wars 2... then I agree with your point of view. It shouldn't be spammy and the system will be flawed in that respect. However...

It may be more of wishful thinking, but here's how I imagine the skills on a scale from spammy to situational to long-cooldown:
6 (12) weapons skills are spammy
6 (12) implements are somewhere in between spammy and situational
2 items will range from situational to long-cooldown
2 utilities will be situational
2 situationals will range from situational to long-cooldown
2 boot/glove will range from situational to long-cooldown

Conversely Guild Wars 2 was:
5 (10) weapon skills are spammy
1 healing skill was spammy
3 utilities ranged from spammy to long-cooldown (mostly just situational)
1 elite skill was situational to long-cooldown
X profession specific abilities that ranged from spammy to long-cooldown

So, at least to me, this system sounds like Guild Wars 2 except with more situational abilities to mimic a tabletop character and give you the tools to survive in a sandbox MMO.

Then there was the Elementalist and the Engineer which are exceptions. An Elementalist had 25+ abilities, and my Engineer had about 20+ as well (except no real limitations between switching so it was pretty hectic). I don't think PFO would be as spammy as those could be.

In any case, I don't think we'll actually know how it will turn out until the game is further developed. It would be nice to get some developer responses on this particular topic for clarification though.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

CaptnB wrote:
Quote:
In PvP, any expendables the player has slotted have a chance to appear as additional loot if the implement they were slotted in was not threaded (the original character does not forget the expendable, it is merely copied into a loot item).
I'm not sure I get this. When you die, even if you didn't thread the expendable, you don't lose it. So there is no expendable sink? They will just multiply until the market is flooded with them?

Maybe we can hope that the expandable is a recipe that is player crafted

Goblin Squad Member

avari3 wrote:
I think once you go past about 12-14 active buttons on top of the movement keys and target tab is like asking us to play Mozart.

I never liked playing Mozart. I hope they can make it like playing Bach instead?

Seriously: yes, most of us will play with one hand on the mouse (2 buttons and a wheel) and one hand on the keyboard. 3 rows of 5 keys plus tab and spacebar are ok. Anything beyond that and dedicated gaming/mmo controllers will make a noticeable difference.

I thought one of the goals of the slotting mechanism was to reduce the number of active key in combat.

Goblin Squad Member

Alarox wrote:
So, at least to me, this system sounds like Guild Wars 2 except with more situational abilities to mimic a tabletop character and give you the tools to survive in a sandbox MMO.

That is what I'm getting (and the 6 seconds rule).

Goblin Squad Member

avari3 wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
avari3 wrote:
It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.
Perhaps you could expand on that Avari?

It sounds like you want to keep us really busy mashing every key on the keyboard so we don't notice the lack of physics engines and other spiffy stuff other games have out there.

I dunno, prove me wrong. I'm open.

I rebut your PO key-mashing/GW2 streamlining assertion.

PO is using 12 physical buttons which -pressing at most 2 at once- gives 30-some options. GW2 has 5 weapon, heal, 3 utility, elite, swap, and 1-4 class buttons which is 12-15 buttons to push.

Having two implements to swap gives more options than GW2, but you can always load only 4 abilities onto your bar and cycle through them if that will prevent combat boredom for you.

Goblin Squad Member

The number of button and abilities you need to actively keep track of is a concern for me when it comes to new players. I am bringing to PFO at least two family members who have never played a MMO game, and if don't want them to be so overwhelmed with the GUI that they stop playing.

Goblin Squad Member

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randomwalker wrote:
avari3 wrote:
I think once you go past about 12-14 active buttons on top of the movement keys and target tab is like asking us to play Mozart.
I never liked playing Mozart. I hope they can make it like playing Bach instead?

I'll get Bach at you for that.

randomwalker wrote:


Seriously
Quote:

Oh drat: Must we?

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Jazzlvraz wrote:


By the time I left for college, I was a fourth-level Illusionist, with 5 hit points, and a grand total of four spells to my name...none of them an actual illusion. I still have my character sheet and all the dungeon maps I drew: trophies of a lost age of playing D&D daily.

How did your character ever live to fourth level? A kobold is a mortal terror to you. Hell, a housecat could take you out in two rounds.

Goblin Squad Member

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George Velez wrote:
The number of button and abilities you need to actively keep track of is a concern for me when it comes to new players. I am bringing to PFO at least two family members who have never played a MMO game, and if don't want them to be so overwhelmed with the GUI that they stop playing.

All those ability slots will certainly not be available to new characters. You start off with a few abilities and acquire more over time, giving the players a chance to familiarize themselves with the options they have.

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:
George Velez wrote:
The number of button and abilities you need to actively keep track of is a concern for me when it comes to new players. I am bringing to PFO at least two family members who have never played a MMO game, and if don't want them to be so overwhelmed with the GUI that they stop playing.
All those ability slots will certainly not be available to new characters. You start off with a few abilities and acquire more over time, giving the players a chance to familiarize themselves with the options they have.

Yep.

Weapon Slots

The first six slots on the action bar are weapon slots... The number of slots available is determined by the character's skills; a low level character may only be able to use two or three abilities initially, while a master of that same weapon will be able to use all six slots.[/qutoe]

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin wrote:
avari3 wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
avari3 wrote:
It's a cheap way to disguise boring combat.
Perhaps you could expand on that Avari?

It sounds like you want to keep us really busy mashing every key on the keyboard so we don't notice the lack of physics engines and other spiffy stuff other games have out there.

I dunno, prove me wrong. I'm open.

I rebut your PO key-mashing/GW2 streamlining assertion.

PO is using 12 physical buttons which -pressing at most 2 at once- gives 30-some options. GW2 has 5 weapon, heal, 3 utility, elite, swap, and 1-4 class buttons which is 12-15 buttons to push.

Having two implements to swap gives more options than GW2, but you can always load only 4 abilities onto your bar and cycle through them if that will prevent combat boredom for you.

They said 20 buttons which swap into 36. GW2 is about 12 buttons (almost every build will have a few passives slotted) swapping into 17 with some classes like the elementalist swapping into more. My concern is two fold, the button mashing and the micromanagement of 36 actives.

Managing 36 actives is like playing a lightning round of dominoes, and it's very WoW-y. I hate dominoes and I hate WoW.

What was a I looking for? Something more like an at bat in baseball I think. Less options, more emphasis on execution and timing.

Goblin Squad Member

Alarox wrote:
avari3 wrote:
Pax Morbis wrote:

Twenty buttons really isn't that many to have to be able to press. That is on the low side for the majority of games these days. My old World of Warcraft character easily had over forty action slots filled, and I was on the conservative side for an arena player.

It isn't that much to ask that you occasionally have to press down your pinky to hit a modifier key.

It's 20+ the movement keys and targets. We're talking about 30 actually. What you are describing is exactly why i hated WoW and SwtoR. I prefer paired down and more interactive like DDO or GW2. I was hoping PFO copmbat would revolve more around the 6 second decisions than managing 36 abilities.

I noticed you referenced GW2. The system seems like an expanded version of their system IMO. However, either of us could be right. I'll explain:

At one time in PFO we have 12 potentially actively used skills, then 8 more situational ones. 6 of the first 12 are tied to a daily resource pool. Guild Wars 2 had 10 (plus other skills depending on the profession obviously) skills, but they seemed mostly spammable with short cooldowns besides the elite skill or occasional utility. (I recognize you understand all of this, just putting it out there for comparison and emphasis).

If most of the 20 skills are like those spammable ones in Guild Wars 2... then I agree with your point of view. It shouldn't be spammy and the system will be flawed in that respect. However...

It may be more of wishful thinking, but here's how I imagine the skills on a scale from spammy to situational to long-cooldown:
6 (12) weapons skills are spammy
6 (12) implements are somewhere in between spammy and situational
2 items will range from situational to long-cooldown
2 utilities will be situational
2 situationals will range from situational to long-cooldown
2 boot/glove will range from situational to long-cooldown

Conversely Guild Wars 2 was:
5 (10) weapon skills are spammy
1 healing skill was spammy...

Agreed. Maybe it takes 2 years before you can slot all 36. Maybe the infrequency of half the buttons or the length of the animations between actives makes the game play a lot smoother and more comfortable than I am imagining. Maybe they do end up slotting passives. I'm not calling the end of PFO, just voicing a concern and a preference of game play that I know for a fact I am not alone on.

Goblin Squad Member

randomwalker wrote:
avari3 wrote:
I think once you go past about 12-14 active buttons on top of the movement keys and target tab is like asking us to play Mozart.

I never liked playing Mozart. I hope they can make it like playing Bach instead?

Seriously: yes, most of us will play with one hand on the mouse (2 buttons and a wheel) and one hand on the keyboard. 3 rows of 5 keys plus tab and spacebar are ok. Anything beyond that and dedicated gaming/mmo controllers will make a noticeable difference.

I thought one of the goals of the slotting mechanism was to reduce the number of active key in combat.

I'd rather have 2 swaps than 30 keys to hit at once. I know i'm not alone and I know that I'm not saying this because "I suck". I am of average dexterity and hand eye coordination just like 80% of the people who will play this game (funny how most people believe they are either great or terrible and how few think they are average). There is a reason why the latest wave of MMO's like GW2 and NWO have gone the way they have and become popular with it. MMO's are games we play for hours on end.

Yes I can use my pinky. No I don't want to feel pain after a gaming session.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I actually do play Mozart - I'm a pianist (amateur, not pro) - but I do tend to prefer a maximum of about one keyboard row of buttons to worry about in combat. That said, it sounds like a lot of these are situational or long-cooldown and won't be used often, if at all, in a single combat. As long as I'm able to do some remapping into a keyboard configuration that makes intuitive sense to me, I'll be happy.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I've been considering getting a Logitech g13 for a long time, maybe PFO will finally make me get one.

Goblin Squad Member

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Deianira wrote:

I actually do play Mozart - I'm a pianist (amateur, not pro) - but I do tend to prefer a maximum of about one keyboard row of buttons to worry about in combat. That said, it sounds like a lot of these are situational or long-cooldown and won't be used often, if at all, in a single combat. As long as I'm able to do some remapping into a keyboard configuration that makes intuitive sense to me, I'll be happy.

A piano is a single keyboard row.

You just made we wish for a MIDI interface so I could remap keys to my old Roland. Sprint on the sustain pedal, crouch on the sostenuto and about 3 octaves of abilities. Literally playing it by ear in combat.

worst part is that it should be a fairly simple thing to code...

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Lhan wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
CaptnB wrote:
Wurner wrote:

The item would be consumed by someone learning the expendable. I don't see that it would necessarily 'flood the market' more than anything coming from other faucets, like coin, crafting materials, crafted items...

"have a chance" could mean any probability greater than 0 and less than 1. It can be balanced.

Expendables are only consumed once per player. As soon as every single player has consumed one type of an expendable, all further drops of that type are useless. In other words, without a proper sink, any drop chance above 0% creates an inflating system...
This is true. However, there should be a constant stream of new players. In addition, MOST expendable feats are designed to be just as accessible as weapon feats, so they need to be pretty readily available.

While I understand the rationale behind this (at least I think I do), this sadly takes away one of the most fun areas of playing a wizard for me - the search for spells. If everything is easily obtainable then that takes all the fun out of the "wizard as spell collector" archetype, and it is actually worse than training say fighter feats because at least with those you have to find somewhere that is willing to train you. If these expendables are common enough for all new players to have reasonable access to them, it will be trivial for any wizard (or indeed any player) who has been playing for a while to be able to buy up every spell in the book. No fun in searching for that "lost" spell as it will just be a random drop, and a good chance that all the casters who want to will have all the same spells at their disposal, something I'd hoped PFO would avoid. Of course, if the spells aren't available in some form or other, the newbies are screwed.

I was hoping that spells would initially be drip fed into the game through gaining access by players increasing reputation with certain groups, a few PvE drops, and perhaps later (way after MVP) by research....

Someone covered this a wee bit further down - apologies for not crediting them: This only covers the core level spell-set. Its very likely that rarer spells will appear only as drops/faction rewards/other rewards, but for new players the acquisition of what you might call 'base' spells and expendable abilities should be as simple as it is for a Pathfinder wizard. Note that in the Pathfinder TT game only non-core spells are difficult to come by. Wizards can take any core spell (level appropriate) they want when leveling up. We will end up with a similar paradigm in PFO except that it may be possible to buy scrolls of unusual spells on the auction house as well as having to earn them yourself.

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