I I dont have a Magic Mart as such.Like others I have some items like healing potions and croll fairly easy to buy from the local Temple,or spelcasters.. There are a few merchants that sell better stuff, just like there are merchants around today that sell Rolls Rocyes, Jet Aircraft and Ocean going cargo ships.Finding a Merchant that sell really big items is like finding a merchant in real life that sells Oil tankers.
Degoon, I suppose that all depends on what you define as a "really big magic item". But the real problem with this approach from a verisimilitude perspective for me is that just about any old craft capable spell caster can make almost any magic item given enough time. So making them crazy rare means you need some explanation for why nobody is making and selling them when it's such a simple way to become incredibly wealthy.
making magic items rare is bad for characters who can't cast spells. Now the buffs they used to be able to pay gold for aren't available unless they can cast themselves.
All 'few magic items' does is make the casters concentrate more on buffing themselves, leaving fewer spells to support the rest of the party...and make the rest of the party weaker because they don't have the gear.
You could do this in 1E because class levels and stats were generally as or more important then gear. Yes, you could get very powerful gear. But a f/10 in normal plate armor and shield still could kill frost giants of equal level. Weapon spec did the job.
And monsters were far less TOUGH.
If you want to make magic rare, you have to depower monsters to compensate for lesser ability, i.e. make them more like 1E. That's a task and a chore most DM's aren't up for.
I find the Christmas tree effect to not be too much different then a video game, and really, all editions of the game had it. PF just institutionalizes it instead of making it random.
We never sold magic items back in AD@D. Why? There was nothing to spend our money on. We just accumulated it. If you weren't buying/building/making a castle or something, you basically didn't spend your loot. Since we couldn't go out and buy magic weapons, we didn't sell them...better our soldiers/followers have swords +1 then selling them off.
The only thing the sale price for the swords was good for was for determining xp, as gold value = xp in 1E.
I would also like to point out that in the 2nd Greyhawk boxed set for the city, there's a horse named Father Black. He's a stud horse for a horse breeder, with a sale value in excess of 200,000 gp. Holy Avengers +6 were only 100k or so, so that horse was worth more then the most expensive sword in the game.
That was HILARIOUS. I brought it up in conversation with Keith Baker over in Eberron, when talking about the overpowered horses the elves militant of that world had. Unless there were some special rules, the sale value of those vastly superior horses was going to be insane, and the elves were going to be offed just to capture their horses.
Promptly, Valenar horses became quite rare and could only be ridden by Valenar...they were descendents of Valenar elves wildshaped and stuck in horse forms, and so only had affinity for the elves.
Hehe!
==Aelryinth
making magic items rare is bad for characters who can't cast spells.
I just thought I would point out that there is a big difference between "magic items are rare" and "players select their own magic items". A campaign could have tons of magical items that are all randomly determined in loot drops without any opportunity to trade them at the magic-mart.
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It's really not all that different. if you can't buy them, you don't sell them because you never know when you might need it in the future, or you can give it to another character. So you just collect hoards of unusable stuff, so it works out pretty much the same.
As I remember it from our highest level adventuring party, the groups portable hole after the GDQ series had something like 42 +1 swords in it. Useless to us, but we never got rid of them.
==Aelryinth
If your mage reaches level 9 during that long, frozen trek, teleporting back to town to sell and buy stuff is quite viable.
==Aelryinth
I don't have magic marts; however I do allow the players to roll to find someone that can craft what they want if it is not a common item or something already available. They then need to talk that person into doing the crafting - I assume that a caster of sufficient power will either be communing with their deity or conducting arcane research, one reason items are so expensive. They will still make items for money, because they need that money to conduct their other occupations, but they may take persuading.
Then you have to pay for your item, and wait for it to be made. In rare cases of very large cities some casters may be dedicated to making items for an exclusive market, and this is organised through a "shop" that acts as the middle-man between the crafters (who still want to do other things) and the customers. In this case, the difficulty for the PCs is persuading the middle-man that they are, indeed, legitimate and wealthy buyers. This may be required in the presentation of a letter of authority, a noble title, or just show that you have a lot of cash.
However, this can sometimes be done in down-time if the players prefer - there's no need to make a game-within-a-game of it, although it's an option, especially if the crafter in question needs rare or exotic ingredients...
If I had to personally pick my one single overwhelming problem with Pathfinder, D&D and other games based on the same fundamental design issues, it is this singular focus on magic stuff being required to be successful.
People complain that magic marts make magic items less "special." The only reason magic marts exist is because if your PC doesn't light up like a Christmas tree when someone uses detect magic, you better have a GM scaling down encounters to match your character's ineptitude. That means every PC lights up like a Christmas tree. THAT'S what makes magic items feel mundane and common. Everybody has magic junk hanging off of every body part that can hold one, and most have magic trinkets floating around their head and littered on their animal companions and familiars. If magic items truly are "rare and special" your average adventuring party is a walking treasure pile waiting to be looted by any enterprising villain.
And the argument that this is somehow "western fantasy" based is nonsense. In most western fantasy your most powerful literary and mythological figures MIGHT HAVE two or three magic items their entire careers. What most PF PCs dump as useless obsolete junk dwarfs the magical treasures of Aragorn, Gandalf, King Arthur, Galahad, Beowulf..... you name them.
Picking on "magic marts" as the problem with the game strikes me as outright silliness. If you really want to play a game where magic items are rare and precious, you shouldn't be playing this one.
Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts. Boromir was carrying a major item.
I have seen mention that PCs could not buy magical items in AD&D. That is not true. When I played it in the later 80's, the magical item lists in Unearthed Arcana had prices. Then 2nd edition came out in 1989 and while we made the switch as soon as it came out, we continued to use those lists in Unearthed Arcana. Later they came out with some Magic Item Encyclopedias, and they had the prices as well. But all of my AD&D days had magical item shops of some sort. What else will you spend your gold on?
I tend to have potions available by the bucketload in dedicated stores, but that's about it.
Scrolls, you can probably find a dingy little store hidden away down a back alley in the larger cities.
Permanent magic items though, I tend to keep out of dedicated stores.
Weaponsmiths and armorers in larger cities may have a couple of magic items that have been traded in or ordered and not picked up, so I'll probably throw in a couple of options there.
If the PCs want anything specific, they'll have to either make it, or get it made. I'll often have my NPC crafters far too busy to just drop everything and start crafting for the PCs, though, unless they can help them out with this little favor... or perhaps they have the time, but not the materials (but hey, if you don't mind fetching this rare ore from the depths of this deep cavern system nearby, I'm sure there's *nothing* dangerous down there.)
So when it comes down to it - my PCs can obtain pretty much anything they want, but I use it as a hook for additional RP and adventure options.
Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts. Boromir was carrying a major item.
Right, I remember now. You can't bring up literary characters without someone (or many people) telling you how their interpretation is that the heroes were godlike and epic with incredible magic stuff, even though you could probably duplicate Gandalf's actual in book actions with a fifth level wizard, magus or druid.
Artifacts. Pfft.
But if it makes you happier to believe that, go right ahead and do so.
Eh... they best thing they had was a Ring of Invisibility... Lord of the Rings is strictly a level 1-6 affair.
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Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts. Boromir was carrying a major item.
Right, I remember now. You can't bring up literary characters without someone (or many people) telling you how their interpretation is that the heroes were godlike and epic with incredible magic stuff, even though you could probably duplicate Gandalf's actual in book actions with a fifth level wizard, magus or druid.
Artifacts. Pfft.
But if it makes you happier to believe that, go right ahead and do so.
Nuh-uh! Gandalf is an epic undead asimar horsemaster wizard fighter bard druid with a balrog banisher prestige class and an artifact weapon. Or something.
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Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts. Boromir was carrying a major item.
Right, I remember now. You can't bring up literary characters without someone (or many people) telling you how their interpretation is that the heroes were godlike and epic with incredible magic stuff, even though you could probably duplicate Gandalf's actual in book actions with a fifth level wizard, magus or druid.
Artifacts. Pfft.
But if it makes you happier to believe that, go right ahead and do so.
And exactly what would you call the Rings of Power? Excalibur? The scabbard that holds Excalibur?
So a fifth level wizard could slay a Balrog in single combat?
I also forgot, that their are those that if the author doesn't write that the mage "casts Fireball and does a 150 points of damage," will interpret that to mean that the spell the mage cast will only light a candle.
Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts. Boromir was carrying a major item.
Right, I remember now. You can't bring up literary characters without someone (or many people) telling you how their interpretation is that the heroes were godlike and epic with incredible magic stuff, even though you could probably duplicate Gandalf's actual in book actions with a fifth level wizard, magus or druid.
Artifacts. Pfft.
But if it makes you happier to believe that, go right ahead and do so.
And exactly what would you call the Rings of Power? Excalibur? The scabbard that holds Excalibur?
So a fifth level wizard could slay a Balrog in single combat?
I also forgot, that their are those that if the author doesn't write that the mage "casts Fireball and does a 150 points of damage," will interpret that to mean that the spell the mage cast will only light a candle.
Oh Excalibur is an Artifact, King Arthur though is pretty human so he's probably level 6 or lower.
Gandalf is not a Wizard. He's a planetar pretending to be a Wizard and yes... I think a Planetar could take a Balrog.
And exactly what would you call the Rings of Power? Excalibur? The scabbard that holds Excalibur?So a fifth level wizard could slay a Balrog in single combat?
I also forgot, that their are those that if the author doesn't write that the mage "casts Fireball and does a 150 points of damage," will interpret that to mean that the spell the mage cast will only light a candle.
Whatever makes you happy dude. I didn't mean to challenge your notion of the epic awesomeness of your interpretations of Tolkien's or anyone else's literary figures.
As I said, I should have known better than to even mention it because this is the sort of nonsense that erupts every time.
Due to, relatively, newer rules allowing improve as you go methods I have less of an issue with it. Rich people have different money than poor people. I'm reminded of comedian Steve Harvey talking about Michael Jackson having giraffe-money. Most people don't even know who you call for a giraffe.
My group just started doing AP's, i'm running Shattered Star, and I actually added some stuff in the game. My friend is running us through RotRL and I feel broke all the time.
Not sure where I should be treasure wise, but my wife gave me most of her gold so I could buy a MW mithral bp. at 5th lvl. Aside from the obligatory AP ranseur, my ranger doesn't have anything else that's magic, iirc. We each have a weapon that's been treated with alchemical silver. We're both allowing our players to sell at full value one most stuff, to help. maybe it gets better at higher level.
I threw in a completely OP purple prism ioun stone for our alchemist, who's also the only person that can use magic. seems OP, but really, with our group it's not so bad.
Traditionally, if a player wanted to go after a specific magic item, he'd pay a sage to divine one in the world and then go on an adventure just for that one item. In AP's there's enough premade to keep them going so I don't mind them running to town for a few days to upgrade.
Magic items have caster levels, but it's a shame that they don't have Item Levels any more (as they did in 3.5). In 3.5 you could say it's easy for a character to get an item of equal or lower level but make it difficult for items that are a higher level.
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I personally think that players should be able to expect that the magic items that are generally known to be crucial to their class/concept will be available somehow.The big question of course is... "What is absolutely crucial?" In Living Death, characters fought many of the typical 3.5 monsters with magic that was rare, extremely limited in scope, incredibly dangerous to use, and they did so without any signficant armor. It meant that they had to approach things differently than they would have as Forgotten Realms characters. I do think that people have an over assumption of what characters need, an a general unwillingness to trust treasure drops to supply those needs as was traditionally the case in AD+D campaigns.
I've never been in a campaign where I was fully decked out in the "Big Six" of magic items, yet I managed to be challenged and participate.
Fact of the matter is ... there is no inherent need for magic items.. save that set up by the GameMaster in setting up challenges. It is incumbent on that gamemaster to provide his players the options of getting ready for those challenges. And there are a lot of ways to make that provision. Mass magic item purchase by order isn't the only tool in that particular box.
No one is claiming it is the only tool, however it is the tool that system expects you to use and is calculated around. And obviously as you progress you are going to get to better loot, thats how the game works. Just like anything else as you gain levels you improve and that goes for treasure as well as saves/skills and bonuses.
This is not a thread to defend magic mart as whole. I have noticed that it is frowned upon, and I understand why. I also wanted to know if there was a behind the scenes reason as to why others allowed it. I will go first.D&D 3.x and Pathfinder have an item treadmill that you need to be on for balance reasons. The magic item shop lets a DM avoid a lot of tedious background accounting. Yes I agree that the Christmas Tree effect is a negative, but the alternative is to play a completely different form of D&D or a different game.
Iconic PCs both in 3.0 (in Enemies & Allies) and Pathfinder (NPC Codex) are festooned with Big Six magic items that are too optimal to have been randomly discovered or taken from NPCs who have less gear. That's the way the game has been playtested.
There's an occasional ugly thread in such discussions. Sometimes a player seeking a Cloak of Resistance (for example) for their character is derided as a munchkin for daring to avoid failing saving throws. Sorry, that's the way the game was written.
I understand that. I was basically asking how others justify it in the background or even up front.
The proper answer is that magic item access will vary from campaign to campaign, even from region to region. according to a variety of reasons. World setting and flavor being the most important.
Even in Golarion, this is true. Shopping for most major potions is a no brainer in Absalom. Trying to get a Raise Dead in Rahadoum is going to give you the very unwelcome attention of the Pure Legion.
I don't think he is saying every magic item is availible in every city. Even though I tend to be laid back with letting PC's get them, they wont be getting a level 8 scroll in small town.
I'm assuming "magic mart" means a store that has anything? There may be different connotations.
For some yes. For me it just means that if the item is below the purchase limit of the city the players can find it. If they was me for fluff I might say the city has a potion shop, and it has a shop for wondrous items, and they happened to run across info that a retired adventure was selling his +2 flaming longsword(which just so happens be what the fighter wanted).
In the end the results are the same.
If I had to personally pick my one single overwhelming problem with Pathfinder, D&D and other games based on the same fundamental design issues, it is this singular focus on magic stuff being required to be successful.
People complain that magic marts make magic items less "special." The only reason magic marts exist is because if your PC doesn't light up like a Christmas tree when someone uses detect magic, you better have a GM scaling down encounters to match your character's ineptitude. That means every PC lights up like a Christmas tree. THAT'S what makes magic items feel mundane and common. Everybody has magic junk hanging off of every body part that can hold one, and most have magic trinkets floating around their head and littered on their animal companions and familiars. If magic items truly are "rare and special" your average adventuring party is a walking treasure pile waiting to be looted by any enterprising villain.
And the argument that this is somehow "western fantasy" based is nonsense. In most western fantasy your most powerful literary and mythological figures MIGHT HAVE two or three magic items their entire careers. What most PF PCs dump as useless obsolete junk dwarfs the magical treasures of Aragorn, Gandalf, King Arthur, Galahad, Beowulf..... you name them.
Picking on "magic marts" as the problem with the game strikes me as outright silliness. If you really want to play a game where magic items are rare and precious, you shouldn't be playing this one.
Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts....
But each character was not draped in magic items, which is what I think his main point was. Other than the ring, and maybe the staff of Gandalf, what would have been an artifact in PF terms?
edit:I am asking about the lords of the ring characters.
I personally think that players should be able to expect that the magic items that are generally known to be crucial to their class/concept will be available somehow.The big question of course is... "What is absolutely crucial?" In Living Death, characters fought many of the typical 3.5 monsters with magic that was rare, extremely limited in scope, incredibly dangerous to use, and they did so without any signficant armor. It meant that they had to approach things differently than they would have as Forgotten Realms characters. I do think that people have an over assumption of what characters need, an a general unwillingness to trust treasure drops to supply those needs as was traditionally the case in AD+D campaigns.
I've never been in a campaign where I was fully decked out in the "Big Six" of magic items, yet I managed to be challenged and participate.
Fact of the matter is ... there is no inherent need for magic items.. save that set up by the GameMaster in setting up challenges. It is incumbent on that gamemaster to provide his players the options of getting ready for those challenges. And there are a lot of ways to make that provision. Mass magic item purchase by order isn't the only tool in that particular box.
You don't need the Big Six at the highest level you can afford, but having them in some form helps. How the GM runs his games is also a factor as well as character design. Someone with Iron Will and other decent saves can hold off on a cloak of resistance.
This has been said, but bears saying again:
Pathfinder RPG assumes a very magic heavy world, where even the smallest of thorps have access to a few magic items, and any magic item of a certain price has a high chance of being found in a town. Crafting seems to be a common and viable profession, and getting many magic items is very easy.
In my mind, going to any town and finding a Cloak of Resistance (assuming the purchase limit is high enough) would be like walking into any reasonably sized town and purchasing water-proof boots. Seems normal to us, but for someone who has never seen water-proofing, it would be crazy, and the idea that you could go almost anywhere and find them would be crazy.
Magic is simply that omnipresent in Pathfinder.
So the question becomes, how can you make magic more special if you want to?
1) Having crafter NPCs who will make things if you pay them enough, and assuming they know the spells. One way to cut down on immediate availability would be to not allows the CR increase for missing crafting components. The other would be to make simple +X items available, but making the enchantments on the not. All items with enchantments would need to be items with history, created for a specific purpose, with a past.
(I have seen the suggestion that players come up with backstories for unusual magic items before, and sometimes it seems effective, other times a stopping block)
2) Modify the assumptions a lot. Make all magic rare, limiting the number of possible crafters. Then you would have to scale back the abilities/frequency of monsters: if getting a +1 dagger is a rare and special event, then running into monsters that require a magic weapon to damage should be rare too. This is the idea of dungeons though: most people will die right away, adventurers will survive longer, but might not be able to explore the entire thing right away.
3) Make the world a sandbox, allowing players to choose the type of activity they think they are able to handle: if they do not have magic weapons to deal with undead, they might pass up the requests to handle local graveyard troubles.
<snip>
So a fifth level wizard could slay a Balrog in single combat?<snip>
Pretty sure it wasn't Gandalf that defeated the Balrog, but the ridiculous massive fall, level 5 wizard could have featherfall to cast at the last moment, just because we didnt see him cast it... or he could have died and been brought back "as the white". You don't actually SEE him beat the Balrog, just that he challenged it, he was seen later, the Balrog wasn't.
Heck for all we know, on the way to the ground, they resolved their differences, the balrog saved his life, they had tea and crumpets, exchanged some valuable muffin recipes, and parted as the best of friends.
Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts. Boromir was carrying a major item.
But each character was not draped in magic items, which is what I think his main point was. Other than the ring, and maybe the staff of Gandalf, what would have been an artifact in PF terms?
edit:I am asking about the lords of the ring characters.
No they weren't draped in magic items, but Middle Earth is a much different place than Golorion or other FRPG worlds. There are not so many "monsters" running around. Nor are the characters being attacked by the sort of save or die sort of things. Nearly everything, if not everything, that is fought is an intelligent being.
For the artifacts, Gandalf's ring, sword and possibly staff and cloak. Aragorn's sword, Frodo's ring (Sting would become legendary but isn't really an artifact), Boromir's horn may or may not be. The horn was certainly a powerful magic item though.
They were all wearing magical Elven cloaks, carrying magical Elven food, and rope. By the end, they had acquired other powerful magical items.
Aragorn and Gandalf, as well as King Arthur, were all carrying Artifacts in Pathfinder terms. Also most of Tolkien's characters weren't adventurers. Gandalf, Aragorn, Thorin, and perhaps Boromir were what could be considered adventurers, the rest were just normal people that volunteered to go along.
Also, look at what they actually had. In the LoTR, the hobbits were all carrying magic sword/daggers, had magic cloaks, and other items. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo were all carrying artifacts. Boromir was carrying a major item.
But each character was not draped in magic items, which is what I think his main point was. Other than the ring, and maybe the staff of Gandalf, what would have been an artifact in PF terms?
edit:I am asking about the lords of the ring characters.
No they weren't draped in magic items, but Middle Earth is a much different place than Golorion or other FRPG worlds. There are not so many "monsters" running around. Nor are the characters being attacked by the sort of save or die sort of things. Nearly everything, if not everything, that is fought is an intelligent being.
For the artifacts, Gandalf's ring, sword and possibly staff and cloak. Aragorn's sword, Frodo's ring (Sting would become legendary but isn't really an artifact), Boromir's horn may or may not be. The horn was certainly a powerful magic item though.
They were all wearing magical Elven cloaks, carrying magical Elven food, and rope. By the end, they had acquired other powerful magical items.
Well if they were not covered in magic items, which was the other poster's point it is not the same.
And what power did Aragaon's sword possess that made it an artifact in PF terms? The same question applies to Gandalf's items.
If you want to say they had a magic item or two sure, but it was not on the level of Pathfinder, and certainly most of them do not count as artifacts.
I have seen mention that PCs could not buy magical items in AD&D. That is not true. When I played it in the later 80's, the magical item lists in Unearthed Arcana had prices. Then 2nd edition came out in 1989 and while we made the switch as soon as it came out, we continued to use those lists in Unearthed Arcana. Later they came out with some Magic Item Encyclopedias, and they had the prices as well. But all of my AD&D days had magical item shops of some sort. What else will you spend your gold on?
You couldn't buy magic items.
You could SELL magic items. And the gp value was used for calculating the amount of xp you got from finding the items.
There were no rules for who and where to find magic items to buy. They didn't exist. Indeed, the idea of NPC's selling magic items was a big no-no, and they would always get the upper hand in any deal. Heck, there was no way to determine the proper price for a magic item other then eyeballing it.
It was how a DM kept control of the magic in his game. It's also why magic weapons and armor were by far the most common magic items...they unbalance things the least.
==Aelryinth
Magic items have caster levels, but it's a shame that they don't have Item Levels any more (as they did in 3.5). In 3.5 you could say it's easy for a character to get an item of equal or lower level but make it difficult for items that are a higher level.
I believe you're thinking of 4e, not 3.5.
And yes, item levels are very handy!
Well if they were not covered in magic items, which was the other poster's point it is not the same.And what power did Aragaon's sword possess that made it an artifact in PF terms? The same question applies to Gandalf's items.
If you want to say they had a magic item or two sure, but it was not on the level of Pathfinder, and certainly most of them do not count as artifacts.
The Licensed Iron Crown MERP game, translated to D20, puts Gandalf's sword as a +6, Holy, Orc slaying sword that detects Orcs up to 1000 feet away. Aragorn's sword was +10 Holy, Flaming (either hot and Orc slaying or cold and Undead slaying). Sting on the other hand was a +3 or 4 dagger that glowed in the presence of orcs.
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Fact of the matter is ... there is no inherent need for magic items.. save that set up by the GameMaster in setting up challenges. It is incumbent on that gamemaster to provide his players the options of getting ready for those challenges. And there are a lot of ways to make that provision. Mass magic item purchase by order isn't the only tool in that particular box.
The fact of the matter is that there are ways around the game's reliance upon magical items, but to say that "there's no need of magical items" in a place where inexperienced DMs may be reading is very misleading, at best. At worst, it's downright disingenuous.
Very experienced DMs can be stingy with magical items by relying on their own assessment of PC vs. monster capabilities rather than on CR, but the result is glass cannon combat. Which may be what you're looking for, but it's very different from standard combat. WARNING: Attempting this without enough DM experience is likely to result in frequent TPKs.
Or a DM can institute some kind of inherent bonus house rule to take the place of the Big Six items; there are a few of these floating around the forums, so this is viable for inexperienced DMs. Regardless of a DM's experience, this is the solution I personally advocate, because it doesn't change combat dynamics or much of anything else.
I've never understood the term "magic mart." In my games, there is no convenient shop that sells all of the adventurers favorite toys.
Rather, when the PC's go "shopping," they are searching the city via black markets, chatting up NPC's, pestering the local churches for healing potions, and tossing gold at the reclusive alchemist who lives on the outskirts of town.
Whne the PC's are shopping, they are really hitting up collectors and making deals with other adventures who happen to be in the city, as well as retired folks who no longer have need of an enchanted sword, but who could really use the coins for a new horse or next months rent or to make desperately needed repairs on that damn leaking ceiling.
Basically, the "magic mart" idea assumes that fantasy economics functions just as our own does. I'd like to believe that when the PC's are in their down time buying and selling, they are in fact roleplaying and making new connections and rivals while trying to unload their loot.
I understand that many people are offended by the idea of a Magic Mart, believing that magic items should be rare and precious works of art, and not something you can pick up at the corner store. The problem is that that isn't the case, at least for the PC's and powerful npc's. Magic is technology in Pathfinder, and common enough that it will be readily available, as much as it saddens me.
If it isn't the case, such as in a low-magic campaign, the DM is forced to modify the rules and challenges of the game, because the game is designed with the idea that the PC's *will* have certain items at certain levels.
Does anyone have a codefied rule set for replacing the big six with inherent bonuses? It would be interesting (and IMO preferable) to remove those items and fold them into the regular leveling of characters and may see the use of other, less "useful" items in those slots.
Does anyone have a codefied rule set for replacing the big six with inherent bonuses? It would be interesting (and IMO preferable) to remove those items and fold them into the regular leveling of characters and may see the use of other, less "useful" items in those slots.
I had one, though I can't seem to find it...it's been a while since I've DMed 3.x.
There are a few variations on the inherent bonus house rule, and contrary to what some might say, the well-thought out ones work just fine. I believe Evil Lincoln's variation is on the forum somewhere, so I'd google 'inherent bonuses paizo' or 'innate bonuses paizo.'
Some variations involve giving each player a number of 'character points,' which they then use to 'buy' inherent bonuses for their characters. Though I have my criticisms of WBL, it's common to base the number of granted 'character points' on it. Some variations involve completely excising enhancement bonuses from the game, while other variations grant enhancement bonuses, thereby leaving the possibility of extra-high-bonus items still being useful. My own variation avoids this extra mathery, and simply gives each PC a predefined set of bonuses at predetermined levels.
Hmmm...the big six I believe is basically:
1)Magic Weapon
2)Magic Armor
3) Stat enhancement item
4) Ring of Protection
5) Amulet of Nautral Armor
6) Cloak of Resistance
Maybe I can just come up with a system that speads out the bonuses granted by 4, 5, and 6 over 20 levels innately and items that provide those bonuses don't exist. That way we get rid of at least 3 of the big six. The stat enhancment item is something I would like to get rid of, but I can't think of fair way to do. Unless maybe I just grant the bonus (of the same bonus type as the normal item) to just one stat inherently but stat increasing items still exist, but you wouldn't be able to double dip on a certain stat because it would be the same type of enhancement. The magic could be "in your blood".
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LOL, just because some random game system puts Anduril as a +10 whatever is nothing but someone ELSE's nonsensical idea about LotR's magic items. What utter nonsense anyway.
Let's also ignore that it gives Anduril (which showed ZERO magical abilities in the book) the bulk of the credit for Aragorn's battle prowess (and Glamdring for Gandalf's etc.).
Tolkien simply didn't see magic that way. He even wrote about it when explaining the book later. Magic in LotR was DELIBERATELY subtle and hidden. +10 swords are the absolute ANTITHESIS of what Tolkien was doing with his story.
But again, people think "Gandalf is an epic almighty sorcerer/wizard. In PF an epic almighty sorcerer would be level 20 with artifacts, therefore Gandalf must have been a level 20 wizard/sorcerer with artifacts."
It's pointless to try to point out the unbelievable fallacies in this reasoning. That's what people want to believe.
The main value of the sword Anduril in the book was that it was the sword that held the key to raising the army of the dead. Other than that singular ability, which was not done through the actual power of the sword but was instead demonstrating the heir of Isildur's bona fides, other than that, Anduril was merely a very finely constructed sword with a noble lineage wielded by the age's premier swordsman. Or one of them anyway.
Does anyone have a codefied rule set for replacing the big six with inherent bonuses? It would be interesting (and IMO preferable) to remove those items and fold them into the regular leveling of characters and may see the use of other, less "useful" items in those slots.
BoED Vow of Poverty This is a good place to start. It needs some adjustments particularly to regular AC bonuses if you plan to let regular gear hoarding players have the bonuses. Other stuff is in there for thematic reasons that should probably go like endure elements and sustenance.
I would remove all items which grant bonuses that overlap these bonuses.
I have a great system that easy to implement if you hate magic mart. You give the players something called Goal Points or GP. I would use the wealth by level table when assigning GP. Each player can then use their Goal Points to unlock magical benefits and enhancements. In order to gain a magical items benefits a player would spend GP equal to the item price, or cost if the player had a Magic Item Crafting feat. For example a Fighter could use his Goal Points to make his Greatsword a +1 Courageous Greatsword.
See easy peasy, no magic mart needed.
The assumption is that most of those "needed buffs" will be coming from party casters who will cast them in the name of their own self interest if no other motivation could move them to do so. There seem to be a lot of pretty rigid assumptions in how campaigns and characters must evolve.making magic items rare is bad for characters who can't cast spells. Now the buffs they used to be able to pay gold for aren't available unless they can cast themselves.
The assumption breaks down in reality.
1) you buff yourself with basics before someone else. Otherwise, you get dead. Esp a squishy caster.
2) low level spells are one person only. Magic items replace the need to spend low level slots on low level defenses, and free them up for active use.
3) Mass spells are higher level slots. This means you can't buff others until later levels, AND now your most useful, highest level slots are being used once again on static buffs magic items once handled.
4) Every spell spent on buffing others is a spell not being used to shut down the enemy. People complain NOW about mages using up combat rounds and spell slots for defenses. When everyone needs buffs, and mages have no spells left to really use against the enemy, how much worse is it going to be?
==Aelryinth
Does anyone have a codefied rule set for replacing the big six with inherent bonuses? It would be interesting (and IMO preferable) to remove those items and fold them into the regular leveling of characters and may see the use of other, less "useful" items in those slots.
If you borrow and apply the bonus table from the Sacred Vow of Poverty feat in the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds you may get the results you desire.
The only thing I don't like about this set up is that PCs either:
a) don't care about playing the game because their characters don't get or need loot or
b) they become so ridiculously powerful because they no longer need to spend what money they have on fluffing their stats and can buy crazy powerful items that characters of their level would normally not be able to buy: vorpal sword is not a good example, but it is the best one I can think of off the top of my head.
Aye, you'd have to recalculate the WBL tables to remove the cost of the Big 6. Aie!
==Aelryinth
LOL, just because some random game system puts Anduril as a +10 whatever is nothing but someone ELSE's nonsensical idea about LotR's magic items. What utter nonsense anyway.
Let's also ignore that it gives Anduril (which showed ZERO magical abilities in the book) the bulk of the credit for Aragorn's battle prowess (and Glamdring for Gandalf's etc.).
Tolkien simply didn't see magic that way. He even wrote about it when explaining the book later. Magic in LotR was DELIBERATELY subtle and hidden. +10 swords are the absolute ANTITHESIS of what Tolkien was doing with his story.
But again, people think "Gandalf is an epic almighty sorcerer/wizard. In PF an epic almighty sorcerer would be level 20 with artifacts, therefore Gandalf must have been a level 20 wizard/sorcerer with artifacts."
It's pointless to try to point out the unbelievable fallacies in this reasoning. That's what people want to believe.
The main value of the sword Anduril in the book was that it was the sword that held the key to raising the army of the dead. Other than that singular ability, which was not done through the actual power of the sword but was instead demonstrating the heir of Isildur's bona fides, other than that, Anduril was merely a very finely constructed sword with a noble lineage wielded by the age's premier swordsman. Or one of them anyway.
LOL just because some random guy says it is just a sword, is nothing but his nonsensical idea that magic has to be specifically defined in fantasy stories or it isn't magical at all.
Besides, to quote from the actual book,
...Anduril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head.
That is during the fight in Moria. Doesn't sound like a normal sword to me, nor did the description of it after it was reforged, where it shown with the hot fire of the sun, and the cold fire of the moon.
The authors of MERP actually did research, and used all the available material they could from the Tolkien Estate to write their game. And it was the officially licensed game.
As for the +10 being the bulk of his prowess, it is a small fraction of the attack bonus they statted Aragorn with.
Anduril was not used to prove his lineage to the dead, he did that with a standard proclaiming him heir, and the promise that they would fulfill their oath and be released.
Tolkien's use of cast spells was subtle, but magic weapons were quite common, and quite powerful. In the fight in Moria, Boromir couldn't hurt the troll that was busting down the door, but Frodo easily stabbed it with Sting (and actually drove it off). His Mithril chain shirt is also descibed as being worth more than the entire Shire.