Spies.
Bloody useless!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It will be interesting to see what TEO/TSV considers to be sufficient evidence that someone is a spy before the start killing neutrals in their territory during wartime.Not sure why this came up in the UNC Policy thread, but...
I'm largely inclined to kill anyone that's flagged Hostile to me. If I know who they are, I'll use more judgment.
If you're planning on coming to Phaeros while our PvP window is open and you'll end up flagged, I would recommend contacting someone first and arranging for an escort unless you're a well-known friend.
It came up because you have a T7V leader in here asking us what we would do, When he full well knows the answers, and he is full well known to try and cause an argument over the answer.
I remain confused by the UNC's interpretation of "positive gameplay", so when I perceive that one of their leaders is warning the Guides away from anyone that the UNC has a beef with or contract on.
I will not be contacting anyone when I come to Phaeros, PVP window or not.
Don't worry, we'll contact you. ;)
Goblin Squad Member
|
I remain confused by the UNC's interpretation of "positive gameplay", so when I perceive that one of their leaders is warning the Guides away from anyone that the UNC has a beef with or contract on.
Perhaps your confusion is not with our interpretation but instead it is caused by your lack of understanding of how Open World PvP MMOs are played.
"Positive Game Play" is a pledge as a player to play within the rules and mechanics of the game. It is a pledge to not unduly prey upon the new player, at the risk of spoiling their new found experience within the game. It is a pledge to not bring about frustration, just for the laughs. It is a pledge to make every attempt to have our interactions viewed as meaningful and hopefully entertaining for both friend and foe alike.
If this doesn't mean "Positive Game Play" to you DeciusBrutus, maybe you need to reevaluate your own interpretation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
so when I perceive that one of their leaders is warning the Guides away from anyone that the UNC has a beef with or contract on.
Completely false. You are trying to create a false impression of what was said, by omitting the main thrust of my statement.
/flings in monkey wrench
A question for you Hobs,
Will guides refuse to escort noobs to settlements currently in an active feud or war?
I would not like to see the Guide Program exploited by a belligerent party, in order to provide safe escort for potential reinforcements.
I am not saying that the guide or the Guide Program would be held responsible for this exploitation, but I could also not allow for the noobs to freely travel to a settlement that is my current feud or war target either.
I think it would be best for the Guide Program not to interact in any [way] with a settlement currently in a hostile state.
Yet another sad attempt to paint the UNC as something it is not. We are not against community building initiatives, as long as they are not "fronts" for self serving agendas.
We support the Guide Program because its agenda is not to serve any specific company, settlement or kingdom, but to serve most specifically new players.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now the reals questions:
What the hell a Guide and his Student will be doing in an open PvP Window place or a Feud/War Territory other than participate the PvP? Since the Guide will be a well know player, it's unlikely they will confuse things so basic as locations and open PvP places.
Well, the road of not-understanding the "positive gameplay" was in RA discussion and ended with the understanding that positive gameplay is entirely meta-game behavior. Not for being IC a good guy, but behave in a not destructive way inside the game and politely and constructive outside it towards a better community.
And I guess in characters decision are vainly related with RA's positive gameplay, unless you were wanting to mean that only Lawful-Good have "positive gameplay" experience. But then I'm afraid your interpretation of it is idiosyncratic and not well passed with the entirely RA understandings, based on what being said in that topic.
And now I´m confused, because you were there and participated the entirely discussion to do not understand the interpretation placed there.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I remain confused by the UNC's interpretation of "positive gameplay"...
Perhaps once you pull your nose out of the books and actually play a game it will become more clear to you.
Spectators during battles are generally:
A. Spies.
B. Scroachers.
99% of them are there to report movements to someone or snag easy loot, sometimes from still living stragglers that get separated from the main group.
Standard policy of all groups of all ethical standing is to kill anyone and everyone who shows up to the battle without sending your leadership a message beforehand to let you know they'll be helping your side.
Standard policy of anyone with brains is to avoid battles in neutral territory unless they want to go spy/scroach.
UNC is being extremely upfront about their intention to operate in a competitive manner. TSV and TEO are making it look like they'll be all noble, likely because they haven't had a cold hard dose of reality yet. If you have anyone among you experienced in these kinds of matters it might be wise to consult them about this kind of stuff before criticizing other group's very reasonable practices. Oh wait...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In the future we shall answer the challenges to our interpretation of positive gameplay with this official statement:
"Positive Gameplay" is a pledge as a player to play within the rules and mechanics of the game. It is a pledge to not unduly prey upon the new player, at the risk of spoiling their new found experience within the game. It is a pledge to not bring about frustration, just for the laughs. It is a pledge to make every attempt to have our interactions viewed as meaningful and hopefully entertaining for both friend and foe alike.
There is no further need at this time to answer their baiting, prodding or poking at our policy(ies ), we have defeated the ploy with an honest and well reasoned response.
Another Forum PvP victory is ours!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have been mostly quite for a few reasons, one of which is I am just tired of the bickering. The game is almost here, at least for us EE people it is. And with that, I grow board with most of this talk about hypothetical situation and such when we don't have all the details.
Let me post this to everyone involved and see where the conversation goes.
What if there is NO WARNING that your entering a hex at war? Will random guy, or a noob+guide still stay away? What if they don't know your at war?
My response: Aragon has stated that we are likely to attack anyone wondering within our boarders during war as a precaution to spying and such. If people are not warned when entering our lands of this fact, then I say their first death is that warning. Dying isn't going to be a MASSIVE deal, I think. If your a guide, you prolly won't carry much more than is needed to show people around and answer questions. So if you die, you shouldn't lose much. If they other guy is truly a noob, same goes for him. So the death doesn't cause much harm anyway, and death will be a part of the game so a "Good guide" will use it as a lesson by experience.
What if there IS a warning that entering a hex is bad for your health?
My response: If I was the guide, I would advise the noob of this (he should have gotten it too) and discuss it with him, maybe take him in to experience what death in PFO is like. At the very least, ensure he pays attention and looks for these signs so he doesn't wonder somewhere he doesn't want to be.
Again, just like with the SAD discussions, I grow board arguing the same points back and forth and I see the same thing here. 1 side thinks it should be one way, and the other side thinks another way. This isn't bad, except both sides are arguing using hypothetical data and ideas. we just don't know so voice your opinion and leave it alone. Stop making assumptions of the other side, and stop arguing over mechanics we don't know yet.
The ONLY things people should know coming from the UNC, and Aragon as a whole, are that we are PVP focused, we openly discuss our policies and expected actions for various situations, and that we do not wish to introduce toxic behavior, but will be playing the "bad guy" role and as such will rob/kill "you" several times over the course of your PFO experience (some more than others depending on your chosen role in PFO).
Next question please.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Honestly, when I first heard about the RA, it was very clear to me that "positive gameplay" meant "non-hostile gameplay". So, essentially, a NRDS policy, which is why I thought that it was very stupid for UNC, to ask to be a signatory.
But, as it happens that I was mistaken, I think that "positive gameplay" doesn't mean a lot. Except "not cheating and not acting in illegal way". But since I suppose that going IRL in the house of an enemy player and taking his family hostage in order to force him to assassinate Hobs at the next Paizocon is in violation with the EULA, we don't really have a choice.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Just to be clear, I used you as an example because it was just a reference to the Hostages TV show, and you are the only "President" of an actual nation for now. :)
Just to be more clear, I am not the "President" nor head of any settlement/empire/nation...I am simply the ambassador for the Empire of Xeilias.
The Empire of Xeilias is headed by the Imperial High Council made up of one representative from each settlement - either its leader or their designee. I report directly to and advise this council on matters of Diplomacy, Recruiting, and related issues. I do not even vote on Imperial matters unless there is a tie and the issue at hand falls into my realm of expertise.
Please forgive my distraction of this thread from its intended topic(s), but the last time someone attempted to paint my position in the EoX as something it isn't, it was meant as an accusation about me and a public attack upon the EoX. Though I take your (Audoucet's) misunderstanding as being innocent enough, I will clarify my position within the EoX where ever I see it being misinterpreted. I would expect any other community member to do the same if such a "misinterpretation" had already been used once as a weapon against their group.
I now return the thread to its usual arguments about UNC policy. :)
*tips green hat to Bludd and company*
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If anything, Morbis is the super secret leader of the Xeilian Empire. You shouldn't listen to Hobs about that Council stuff, he is a known liar. Not to be trusted.
So, UNC. Say you are out in the countryside and you see some random chaps SADing a group. Suddenly the bandits are attacked! They are outnumbered! But you could easily turn the tide with your awesome UNC-ness. What do you do!?
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Just to be clear, I used you as an example because it was just a reference to the Hostages TV show, and you are the only "President" of an actual nation for now. :)Just to be more clear, I am not the "President" nor head of any settlement/empire/nation...I am simply the ambassador for the Empire of Xeilias.
The Empire of Xeilias is headed by the Imperial High Council made up of one representative from each settlement - either its leader or their designee. I report directly to and advise this council on matters of Diplomacy, Recruiting, and related issues. I do not even vote on Imperial matters unless there is a tie and the issue at hand falls into my realm of expertise.
Please forgive my distraction of this thread from its intended topic(s), but the last time someone attempted to paint my position in the EoX as something it isn't, it was meant as an accusation about me and a public attack upon the EoX. Though I take your (Audoucet's) misunderstanding as being innocent enough, I will clarify my position within the EoX where ever I see it being misinterpreted. I would expect any other community member to do the same if such a "misinterpretation" had already been used once as a weapon against their group.
I now return the thread to its usual arguments about UNC policy. :)
*tips green hat to Bludd and company*
Point taken, sorry ! My mistake :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So, UNC. Say you are out in the countryside and you see some random chaps SADing a group. Suddenly the bandits are attacked! They are outnumbered! But you could easily turn the tide with your awesome UNC-ness. What do you do!?
This is an excellent question, one deserving of a thorough answer. I will get back to you on it after I return from work.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So, UNC. Say you are out in the countryside and you see some random chaps SADing a group. Suddenly the bandits are attacked! They are outnumbered! But you could easily turn the tide with your awesome UNC-ness. What do you do!?This is an excellent question, one deserving of a thorough answer. I will get back to you on it after I return from work.
I will give a simple response.
1) It depends on who is involved. If either group is friendly, help them.
2) If neither group is friendly, do a quick assessment of the situation.
a) If the bandits will lose with no real kills, help the bandits then SAD them.
b) If the bandits will do some good damage before losing, let them do that damage, then SAD the attackers or finish the job and loot everything.
That is what I would do if I was running the op.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
See, the most recent question I asked was in reference to non-warzone areas. Like a hex containing a poi that is operated by a company that UNC is feuding.
The response has been "hexes containing feud targets are all warzone" (with only a little hyperbole).
Your clarification regarding what you consider sufficient to be committed to positive gameplay was most informative. Thank you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
See, the most recent question I asked was in reference to non-warzone areas. Like a hex containing a poi that is operated by a company that UNC is feuding.
The response has been "hexes containing feud targets are all warzone" (with only a little hyperbole).
Your clarification regarding what you consider sufficient to be committed to positive gameplay was most informative. Thank you.
You are just amazing Decius. Twist it how you wish. Typical nonsense.
Hows that color purple smelling these days?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Morbis,
First, let me begin by pointing out that the scenario you provided is by its nature a random encounter. That being said, then the UNC policy has one written rule: At the Field Commander's Discretion.
* This assumes no hostility flags or associations are in play.
Here are the possible actions that I can foresee:
1. Assist Group "B" (Bandits) in defeating the Group "A" (Non Bandits). Take the lion's share of the loot, because we rescued the bandits.
2. Sit back and wait for one group to win, and then ambush them and loot all.
3. Sit back and do nothing. Speak with winner and try to garner some favor / advantage. Probably, just SAD them, to be really honest.
4. Leave the area, it is not our business.
In all but #4, I would expect that the commander of the squad or troupe would attempt to recruit the bandits into either UNC, or for them to make their home in Aragon.
If they did well, we would love to count their blades along with ours. If they did poorly, we would love to train them so they do not embarrass the praiseworthy profession of banditry in the future.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I dislike the notion of PvP. Intensely. But even I acknowledge that in a game where fighting between characters and their organized groups over scarce resources forms the core of the intended activity, killing a character that wanders (without clear identification and reason) into the zone of a group that is actively engaged in a disagreement with another group is not negative game play.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey, I hope you don't count me among those "baiting" you. I participate in your threads because I think a game like this needs "antagonists" as well as "protagonists" ( obviously these terms are relative to the speaker) and UNC seems like it's positioning itself to fill that role in an interesting manner.
I can never really seem to bring myself to play the antagonist role in RP games and MMO's but I enjoy seeing others play them well and am always interested in the approach they take.
For the record, I don't see anything about UNC or the way it intends to operate that contradicts the concept of positive gameplay. For me that's making whatever conflict occurs all about the game and the characters not the other player. As long as that's being communicated to the other guy so they can understand it and it's not being made personal I don't really see a problem...not even with naked agression, it's a game about conflict afterall. I guess that's an easy concept for me, coming from both a heavy RP and wargaming background.
Personaly, while I can get very immersed and can appreciate and enjoy the competition and will do my best to try to win, I just can't seem to take these sort of games all that seriously. At the end of the day, who really cares if ones settlement burns to the ground and everything falls to ashes around you...as long you had fun while playing and enjoyed the company of those you were fighting with (and against), it's all just pixels and bytes. It's not like you were competeing for anything truely important. The only caveat would be if losing somehow meant you couldn't continue to participate in the game in an entertaining manner which would be a complete fail of design on GW's side.
I guess the only tricky part is that they are trying to accomodate a game that appeals with very different and divergent interests and PvP is one of those aspects that can negate peoples ability to pursue other interests/aspects. That's fine, though if the PvP becomes overly dominating of the play experience then I'll only come to PFO when I'm in a mood to only PvP and nothing else....and the PvP will need to be superior to other PvP oriented games that are availble. YMMV.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Hello !
So, this question is a little of a bait, obviously, but I will post it anyway, because I think that the answer could be interesting.
If I'm sitting in one of your sky metal hex, with a unaffiliated alt, without any flag, screaming "I'M JACOB AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF", what would you do ?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hello !
So, this question is a little of a bait, obviously, but I will post it anyway, because I think that the answer could be interesting.
If I'm sitting in one of your sky metal hex, with a unaffiliated alt, without any flag, screaming "I'M JACOB AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF", what would you do ?
They'd probably think you were one of Andius' many alts. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Hello !
So, this question is a little of a bait, obviously, but I will post it anyway, because I think that the answer could be interesting.
If I'm sitting in one of your sky metal hex, with a unaffiliated alt, without any flag, screaming "I'M JACOB AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF", what would you do ?
The UNC has a few different divisions / companies / alignment based motivations. depending on the group that you encounter, may have a bearing on what happens in your scenario.
UNC (proper) CN = Wait for you to harvest as much as you can (you consume the time), then we SAD you and take what you would freely hand over or game you with superior numbers (force) if you should foolishly refuse.
Exalted Bastards CE = Will kill you, even at expense of reputation loss but leave your corpse with all of its sky metal, as a form of mockery. The message sent, we killed you because we enjoy killing those weaker than ourselves and especially those that think they can taint us.
The Exalted Bastards will be masters of "one upmanship" in a race to the bottom, if you wish to challenge them in such a race.
The Sentinels of Echo Wood CG = Will likely warn you to calm your rhetoric down, and take only what the land can bear. Exploiters of nature will be driven off, their operations (outpost structures) destroyed and killed if necessary as a last resort.
The other groups associated with The UnNamed Company are mostly TN and would therefor be capable of using any one of those responses above, but also including simply ignoring you.
I will not speak of the sponsored or other chartered companies of Aragon, because they will have their own responses.
This response at most represents the vision of the UNC as a whole, and at least it represents my own personal view. It does not represent the view of Aragon as a settlement.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The Sentinels of Echo Wood CG = Will likely warn you to calm your rhetoric down, and take only what the land can bear. Exploiters of nature will be driven off, their operations (outpost structures) destroyed and killed if necessary as a last resort.
We're not that nice. The Sentinels will probably be one of the more choosy groups in Aragon about who we target, but for those who we determine to be our enemies, or who declare themselves as such you can expect us to use every tool available to us in order to utterly destroy you.
The primary difference between the Sentinels and regular UNC is we run on a NRDS/NRDR policy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Thanks, can I use the same response, in other threads about PvP ? :]
No!
This response was tailored to this specific scenario that your proposed, and may or may not apply to another scenario posted elsewhere.
If you use it elsewhere, you can expect that I may dispute its application in that context.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Andius,
That is NBRI (not NRDR) for the UNC. Non Blues will more likely be presented with a SAD offer, rather than an outright attack. Reds will likely never receive a SAD offer, especially if they are a feud, faction or war target. A free kill will never be passed up by UNC, in any of its divisions I would imagine.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I'm sitting in one of your sky metal hex, with a unaffiliated alt, without any flag, screaming "I'M JACOB AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF", what would you do ?
I think there should be a mechanism to indicate that you are hostile towards another PC, and if that PC doesn't leave the immediate area in a reasonably short period of time you will be able to strike at them without penalty (and vice versa). You don't want to let bandits walk right up to you before you try to drive them off. This effect probably has to be tied to another action like caravaning or harvesting so people don't just use it as a free gank enabler. And it probably should only apply in Wilderness hexes.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Thanks, can I use the same response, in other threads about PvP ? :]No!
This response was tailored to this specific scenario that your proposed, and may or may not apply to another scenario posted elsewhere.
If you use it elsewhere, you can expect that I may dispute its application in that context.
Actually, my post here was a copy/past of someone else, saying that T7V/TEO couldn't do anything against, justifying FFA PvP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I believe he was referring to Andius's post in a another thread, saying he could harvest with impunity--using a newbie alt affiliated to an NPC starter Company--in territory considered the "property" of another, as he'd be immune to wars and feuds by virtue of being aligned to an NPC Company.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
When I use the word unaffilated it's code for "belongs to a starter company."
Group or no group you can't declare war on them without starting a war on all unaffilated newbs. If they even allow starter companies to be war decced.
I could sit right there and declare "I'M ANDIUS AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF" and there is nothing TEO/TSV can do without rep loss or violating their core values.
Believe me I'm not above using that to my advantage, I've ALWAYS fought extremely dirty.
It was used as a point,to prove that rare resources hexes should be exempted of the reputation system.
So, I thought, if you can do that, anybody can do that too, 'cause, well, you don't necessarily need to be a military genius, to create an alt to piss people off. And I was curious about how you, would react to the same tactic.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I believe he was referring to Andius's post in a another thread, saying he could harvest with impunity--using a newbie alt affiliated to an NPC starter Company--in territory considered the "property" of another, as he'd be immune to wars and feuds by virtue of being aligned to an NPC Company.
That is likely true, unless an NPC settlement can be feuded or made a war target. In the absense of thar scenario you only have three choices:
1. Ignore
2. SAD
3. Kill for Rep Loss
This is why the SAD mechanic is so important. Several months ago I raided the issue of "What if a merchant opts out?" This harvester scenario is identical.
If harvesting or caravaning requires few and low tier level skills, a merchant based company would be smart to use unaffiliated noobs to do their hauling or harvesting for them. These noobs would have the exceptional "armor class" provided by a harsh reputation system.
There are several ways to avoid this through the skill / feat / crafting and or faction systems.
By gatibg access to certain resources through skill or gear tiers and or faction rank, you partially remove the specter of the unaffiliated, naked noob. The SAD is a meaningful player interaction that elevates the situation as well.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
When I use the word unaffilated it's code for "belongs to a starter company."
Group or no group you can't declare war on them without starting a war on all unaffilated newbs. If they even allow starter companies to be war decced.
I could sit right there and declare "I'M ANDIUS AND I'M GATHERING THESE RESOURCES JUST TO PISS YOU OFF" and there is nothing TEO/TSV can do without rep loss or violating their core values.
Believe me I'm not above using that to my advantage, I've ALWAYS fought extremely dirty.
It was used as a point,to prove that rare resources hexes should be exempted of the reputation system.
So, I thought, if you can do that, anybody can do that too, 'cause, well, you don't necessarily need to be a military genius, to create an alt to piss people off. And I was curious about how you, would react to the same tactic.
Our reaction is the same as anyone else's based on the available mechanics.
1. Ignore
2. SAD
3. Kill for Reputation Loss
Someone may suggest diplomacy, but that won't work on an unaffiliated noob. Where do you have leverage of diplomacy?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This is why the SAD mechanic is so important.
I completely agree. I didn't check the date of Ryan's quote about driving people off, but we know SAD didn't exist for a significant portion of the discussion about PFO; I was thinking the same as you, that SAD might be all that's needed to deal with someone "trespassing".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I agree with this. I think SAD is one of the best concepts about PFO, even though I will never use it myself. Encounter it? Yeah I have a feeling that will happen. ;)
This is why the SAD mechanic is so important.
You personally may not use it, but your settlement better be prepared to. If your settlement does not, your borders will be flooded by unaffiliated noobs ninja harvesting your resources.
The only other defense is to set your settlement's Trespasser flag to all but "Blue" targets, otherwise known as NBSI.