Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you broken for your response. That is the sort of response I was looking to get. (in case others wish to post their versions as well, this is the sort of "format" I was asking for.) I also have very limited, or none in the case of programming, knowledge about actual game development concepts. I understand that this lack of knowledge means not everything we want will turn out the way we want. I was looking for the concept and ideas that, if possible, you would desire to be implemented and you did, thank you.
I agree that erring of the side of harsh would be the way to go, although I feel that as long as near constant observation of it was done, and as well as on other mechanics, to allow for tweeking as needed. Either way, if bandit life is made too easy, or too hard, as long as it gets balanced to where it is as viable as crafting and other PVE activities, then we will be fine.
@Audoucet, ok so your problem isn't with banditry the way the UNC intends to pursue it, it is with our "NBRI" policy? Is this correct?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let me ask this, and try and take this whole conversation another direction, for those opposing us in this discussion concerning banditry and random killing and such, how would you play a bandit?
First, I don't oppose you with respect to banditry.
Were I to play at being a bandit, I would probably try to RP it so over-the-top that my "victims" so thoroughly enjoyed the experience that they actually looked forward to it happening again. I'm not sure I have the chops to pull that off, but it's what I'd want to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let me ask this, and try and take this whole conversation another direction, for those opposing us in this discussion concerning banditry and random killing and such, how would you play a bandit?First, I don't oppose you with respect to banditry.
Were I to play at being a bandit, I would probably try to RP it so over-the-top that my "victims" so thoroughly enjoyed the experience that they actually looked forward to it happening again. I'm not sure I have the chops to pull that off, but it's what I'd want to do.
I actually really like this idea. If some particular group of bandits made a big show of it and used fancy period language, how can you not have some soft spot for that kind of performance? Of course, if I ran into that same group 4 times a day and they were bleeding me dry the novelty might wear pretty thin :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen, describing people as tools and fools is name calling. Name calling is not a good way to debate and makes you sound less smart than you would probably like.
Lets save that level of trash talk for when we are in game and actually able to kill each other.
LOL, I am not debating with him one bit as there is no point. The UNC and I have been attacked so often on this forum that I really do not care if anyone thinks I am less smart because I return fire. I actually stopped posting for a few months and just read the posts. Then I got tired of Bludd being attacked at every turn so I came back to support him and take the pressure off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So is Goodfellow the official UNC diplomat? lolJudging from this thread it would seem so. At the very least he seems to be the only one that cares how other people view the UNC.
We did, all of us did. You should see some of the older posts from 6 + months ago.
But when your the PVP and bandit guys, everyone else verbally attacks you. Because they all know once the game gets going... they will be on the receiving end.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We did, all of us did. You should see some of the older posts from 6 + months ago.You were aggressive toward other people even before UNC was an idea, don't try to play the innocent victim.
Excuse me? The UNC was an idea before I ever came to this forum.
My first post was 3/6/13
Thank you for proving my point.
In fact, I started off opposing Bludd with some of his assassin class ideas. I also planned to play a LG paladin who went about protecting people. Then I saw that everyone who was planning to do the same thing kept on and on attacking Bludd and the UNC. I got tired of it and joined him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We did, all of us did. You should see some of the older posts from 6 + months ago.You were aggressive toward other people even before UNC was an idea, don't try to play the innocent victim.
To be fair, the UNC has not always been the friendliest responders. They came on aggressive and probably deserved some flak. On the flip, they HAVE been the focus of fire. I am not sure that any of us does not get defensive about our CC or planned Settlements, when put under fire. Who started it? Does it matter any more? Let's look at what UNC says they plan to do now and try to READ and grasp that.
@ UNC
You need to READ what your debate opposites write too. Continuously stating that people who disagree with you, are against PVP/banditry is as "strawman" as when old stuff is brought up against you.
Xeen and I have had many back and forth "issues" and I admit that many of them were my fault. I have also had great dealings with Xeen.
Too much talking past the real issues. Goodfellow is... well "good" at bringing them back to focus.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If I were to summarize how to play a bandit effectively, I'd emphasize maximizing net expected return per hour. I think that the highest NERPH will be in whatever region of "banditry" is least fun. That will probably be in low-moderate volume areas with almost no windfalls. Within that area, provide protection from other predators in exchange for payment.
I, personally, wouldn't play on that scale. If I wanted to take what belongs to others, I'd do it as a LE landlord, which is the same concept writ much larger in scope.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I were to summarize how to play a bandit effectively, I'd emphasize maximizing net expected return per hour. I think that the highest NERPH will be in whatever region of "banditry" is least fun. That will probably be in low-moderate volume areas with almost no windfalls. Within that area, provide protection from other predators in exchange for payment.
I, personally, wouldn't play on that scale. If I wanted to take what belongs to others, I'd do it as a LE landlord, which is the same concept writ much larger in scope.
We may very well do both of these. Granted I would be looking for the more fun approach personally. Which means I will die more often lol.
Being a land lord works as well, but you have to be a group that is capable of destroying several settlement groups without breaking a sweat. I dont see that happening for a few years after OE, but it will come to PFO sometime.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So is Goodfellow the official UNC diplomat? lol
FYI I never volunteered for the job or even wanted it, it just sort of happened. I pride myself, as a person, on being able to see other people's points of view. I think I am fairly good at it and it comes in handy when doing these various debates. I can put myself into the role of a merchant being robbed just as easily as being the bandit robbing him. I can see both side of the conflict and I try to present that when I talk about these topics, included SAD and our policies here.
As bludd says and I will echo, (which happens a lot LOL) while we are the most vocal and are part of the leadership of the UNC, each member is his/her own, free to post and say what they like. That being said, if a member gets out of hand, or states something outside the scope of the company, it is dealt with internally, much like how we desire to handle things in game. We generally don't have an issue and while not everyone is fluent in the flowery tongue of tactful diplomacy, the message is still the same.
Yes xeen and, a lot of the time, bludd will say things in a very brash and vulgar manner and use terms that are agreeably not the best, but if you are able to see past these faults and "issues" you will see what is truly being said. Namely what I have been saying. :-)
Bringslite brings up a good point. Since conception and introduction on these forums, the UNC has been on the receiving end of nearly every harsh word and notion towards the bandit/assassin/"Bad guy" idea. While we accept and, at times, welcome this, there have been times it has gone a bit far and it is my belief that it is part of the reason for the statements and stances that xeen and bludd and even myself have taken at times. This is one of the reasons I asked for you all to post your desired bandit playstyle if you were to assume that role. it was an attempt to get others to view this as I do, from all sides.
With the EE so close and Alpha any day now (unless I missed the start of that), we really need to all stop with the negative name calling ( yes Xeen and bludd this is at you as well as others on the other side of this debate) and just negative implications all together. Let us all work together and hash out details (also known as crowdforging) to make this a game that will last the test of time and be enjoyed by us and future gamers to come. All playstyles (or nearly all anyway) should be viable and enjoyable without overly infringing on other peoples game enjoyment. It won't be 100%, as no one likes to be robbed or killed but it will happen, but I am sure if we all work together and help GW find that "happy medium" we will be fine.
<Stumbles off of the soapbox that magically appeared below him, and quickly finds comfort in the shadows.>
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the context is the important part here. Every action we take should have consequence. If you must transport goods from place to place, with no concern for what could happen along the way, this is simply a chore. There is no consequence, it is a foregone conclusion that transporting will be successful.
For a successful delivery to have meaning, to itself be valued rather than taken for granted, there must be an element of risk. This is one of the key tenets on which the entire game is based on.
Even if a group does not formally announce their intentions to be bandits, but engages in the attack of goods being transported, that is still banditry.
Another way to look at this is, if UNC is not out there robbing merchants, merchants have no reason to hire guards who in turn have no income. What do you think a bunch of armed individuals are going to do when they no longer have a source of income? They're going to find one, and if these merchants no longer employ guards, they are the easiest targets.
What UNC is setting themselves up for is inevitable, they are simply leapfrogging the cause and effect, and in reality giving the end result more balance at the outset, rather than waiting for it to run its course.
The reason I am not in here telling them they are wrong is because they are not. It will happen, they recognize this, and most importantly they have been very vocal about doing their part in ensuring positive gameplay. Not turning into a pack of griefers, as one of the first bandits, is setting a precedent for all other bandits that come to follow.
For every person that has attacked their position on this, remember that this is all meta, it is by its very nature outside of the game and inherently going to be all talk. There is nothing else for it to be. Their stated goals are only as suspect as yours are in opposing them. We all have to give each other a certain benefit of the doubt, and calling someone's intentions into question only serves to call your own out as well.
There is a lot that this thread can accomplish in giving them a chance to think about situations they have not considered prior to experiencing them. Or giving them solid reasons to revisit decisions they have already made. If you want to ease your concerns about banditry, start your questions there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to ease your concerns about banditry, start your questions there.
If you do voice a concern, try not to voice one that has already been covered.
Like not wanting them to bandit your faces TOO much. UNC has already stated that they will try their hardest to only bandit you just the right amount.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry Goodfellow, you are not allowed to step off the soapbox and hide. You are as of now glued to it... It is a part of you... It is an extension of your being. LOL
Good points and words Darcnes.
That all is correct. We have no intention of purposely trying to ruin anyones game play. In fact, we are as much trying to enrich it as we are our own. How much fun is it to go out in the wilderness and have no fear of anything because all you have to fight with are NPC's.
There is no risk in that sort of game. With no risk there can be no real reward. It is probably the real reason I get bored with most games. There is no real feeling of accomplishment. If you can do the exact same thing as 100's of other people, with no doubt you will succeed just as they did, then what is it that you gained? Nothing.
With a Player driven, PVP based, Sandbox style, MMO, you have a feeling of accomplishment in what you do. We are here to bring you that feeling. If you make it from Thornkeep to Brighthaven with a full load of equipment to sell. Knowing full well that we are in the area looking for people like you. At any moment you could be jumped and robbed.
Doesnt that make the game more enjoyable then walking from place to place carefree? Knowing full well that there are 100's of others making that same trip, with no chance of loss.
From my prospective, I know full well that when I go out hunting. I will likely be killed by a larger group. I know that any merchant I come across could be a trap in waiting. I know full well that there is a group of guards or bandit hunters out there looking for me.
That makes the game fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm actually a passenger on a four hour car trip, so I'm not correcting spelling.
The Goodfellow is by far our most diplomatic, but considering he is an assassin and will likely be killing heads of state, being a diplomat might be a bit of a stretch.
As he has said numerous times, we in the UNC are on the same page for the most part. What some of you are seeing is different delivery styles, I'll refer to them as the "Good, Bad and Ugly".
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should see some of the older posts from 6 + months ago.
6+ months ago is filled with threads of UNC piling on people who how didn't share your view of PvP regardless of to what degree. So no, 6+ month ago is not UNC caring about how people view UNC. 6+ month go is about UNC caring about that people who are not UNC are sufficiently insulted and ridiculed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should see some of the older posts from 6 + months ago.6+ months ago is filled with threads of UNC piling on people who how didn't share your view of PvP regardless of to what degree. So no, 6+ month ago is not UNC caring about how people view UNC. 6+ month go is about UNC caring about that people who are not UNC are sufficiently insulted and ridiculed.
That very well might be true, but shouldn't we all agree that it is more constructive to move forward with the policy of not using insults and slander to color our debates?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should see some of the older posts from 6 + months ago.6+ months ago is filled with threads of UNC piling on people who how didn't share your view of PvP regardless of to what degree. So no, 6+ month ago is not UNC caring about how people view UNC. 6+ month go is about UNC caring about that people who are not UNC are sufficiently insulted and ridiculed.
I'm not so sure about that. This thread is seven months old, and when it first started up, I posed this question here and got what I thought was a pretty good answer.
Sure UNC (and others) have been aggressive in some threads with respect to PvP, but I'm not sure 'piling on' and ensuring people are 'sufficiently insulted and ridiculed' is correct. If it is, it is probably not the most constructive comment to dredge up six months after the fact either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it is, it is probably not the most constructive comment to dredge up six months after the fact either.
It absolutely is when a false claim is brought up to the contrary.
Also ignoring and forgetting toxic behavior, even on the forums, and "just moving on" is IMO the absolute worst way to go about it because it's just shy of tolerating the toxic behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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meh, I'm incredibly tired right now (new puppies are so much fun), but the only post I recall as offensive/toxic, which I flagged, is one making stupid jokes about sexual assault.
Each of us has different tolerance levels and different opinions of abusive/toxic/offensive I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should see some of the older posts from 6 + months ago.6+ months ago is filled with threads of UNC piling on people who how didn't share your view of PvP regardless of to what degree. So no, 6+ month ago is not UNC caring about how people view UNC. 6+ month go is about UNC caring about that people who are not UNC are sufficiently insulted and ridiculed.
Opinion, with little or no basis in fact.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we should discuss reverse banditry, where we let you issue the SAD and then ambush you. =p
I fully expect "baiting" tactics to be used and I welcome them. There has been a frequent statement that bandits hold all of the advantage in picking a target, and deciding when to attack or not. Baiting and or using decoys is a viable counter to that advantage that bandits do have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well once again, I think that you are suffering from the comparison with EvE online, where it was easy to play coward, since we could just go to a station or a safe-point, in low-sec.
Could you please identify which post or person you are directing this to.
As for "safe points" in low sec, they only remain safe for about 30 seconds if your pirate team is skilled and actively using D-scan and probes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we should discuss reverse banditry, where we let you issue the SAD and then ambush you. =pI fully expect "baiting" tactics to be used and I welcome them. There has been a frequent statement that bandits hold all of the advantage in picking a target, and deciding when to attack or not. Baiting and or using decoys is a viable counter to that advantage that bandits do have.
I expect bandits to travel as lightly as possible though, they will not be carrying loads of resources and such. Gold itself is not lootable, I expect bandits to quickly exchange any goods they steal into gold.
I know you guys love a good fight, but this also has to do with accountability. Therefore the rep-system and the fact that players have to rely on settlements for their skills/power, even Bandits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we should discuss reverse banditry, where we let you issue the SAD and then ambush you. =pI fully expect "baiting" tactics to be used and I welcome them. There has been a frequent statement that bandits hold all of the advantage in picking a target, and deciding when to attack or not. Baiting and or using decoys is a viable counter to that advantage that bandits do have.I expect bandits to travel as lightly as possible though, they will not be carrying loads of resources and such. Gold itself is not lootable, I expect bandits to quickly exchange any goods they steal into gold.
I know you guys love a good fight, but this also has to do with accountability. Therefore the rep-system and the fact that players have to rely on settlements for their skills/power, even Bandits.
The bold statement is not accurate. When we raid an outpost, POI, caravan or settlement, we will be looting bulk goods or other items / resources which will then have to be transported to a refinement center (chop shop) or market (fence), open to ill gotten goods from shady characters. ;-)
Granted we may use merchant alts (smugglers) to run this part of our, but that is the kind of layering that we are hoping for.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Could you please identify which post or person you are directing this to.
As for "safe points" in low sec, they only remain safe for about 30 seconds if your pirate team is skilled and actively using D-scan and probes.
I was responding to you, about the fact that people usually thinks that bandits have an unfair advantage, it wasn't an accusation or an aggression. I just meant that in EvE, in low-sec, because of the gameplay of the whole game, pirates could be perceived as having an advantage. Because it was a space game, with a specific gameplay. But in PFO, I don't think that people will have the same perception.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we should discuss reverse banditry, where we let you issue the SAD and then ambush you. =pI fully expect "baiting" tactics to be used and I welcome them. There has been a frequent statement that bandits hold all of the advantage in picking a target, and deciding when to attack or not. Baiting and or using decoys is a viable counter to that advantage that bandits do have.I expect bandits to travel as lightly as possible though, they will not be carrying loads of resources and such. Gold itself is not lootable, I expect bandits to quickly exchange any goods they steal into gold.
I know you guys love a good fight, but this also has to do with accountability. Therefore the rep-system and the fact that players have to rely on settlements for their skills/power, even Bandits.
The bold statement is not accurate. When we raid an outpost, POI, caravan or settlement, we will be looting bulk goods or other items / resources which will then have to be transported to a refinement center (chop shop) or market (fence), open to ill gotten goods from shady characters. ;-)
Granted we may use merchant alts (smugglers) to run this part of our, but that is the kind of layering that we are hoping for.
Yes, but as I said, you will unload those goods as quickly as possible and undoubtedly will find the fastest way to do that. I expect the time that a banditgroup is running around loaded with loot, to be a very small fraction of the total time that they are running around/setting up/waiting in ambush, traveling lightly. Harvesters and merchants on the other hand will be carrying stuff a lot of the time they are on the road.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Tyncale
Strangely, if you think about it, our "pockets" will only be empty, when your's are full. Your pockets will only be empty when bandits are able to empty them. I don't think the comparison is as lopsided as you might think, nor are the advantages.
I honestly believe the conflict between merchant and bandit will balance out naturally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Tyncale
Strangely, if you think about it, our "pockets" will only be empty, when your's are full. Your pockets will only be empty when bandits are able to empty them. I don't think the comparison is as lopsided as you might think, nor are the advantages.
I honestly believe the conflict between merchant and bandit will balance out naturally.
Very poetic, but no. :) Your pockets may be empty, but the untouchable hoard of Gold that you have accumulated by emptying our pockets every time will sure still be there, and grow. And be untouchable, just to mention it for second time.
It all needs to be balanced out: your risk, our risk, time spent doing your thing, our thing. If the balance is out of whack, people will stop doing what they are doing(leave?)and less fun is to be had. I do not believe that these mechanics will easily balance out by themselves: it is a game where behaviour of a few can quickly cause things to be lopsided. We are not talking real-life economics here.
So for instance, I do not think that "Bandits running out of targets, will create less bandits" will work at all.
These mechanics need serious considering, and probably a HUGE amount of tweaking, for years to come. My guess is, is that the Bandits will be on the receiving end of this nerf-stick for quit a while.
If you think otherwise, read the perks section of the GW job-positions:
"Substantial stock options – we are a small studio and want to make sure everyone has a stake in the company"
;)
Mind you, I totally believe Transporting goods should be risky: else they may as well do away with the entire feature of local markets and transporting goods right away. I am just not sure if it is risky enough for the bandits though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am just not sure if it is risky enough for the bandits though.
Since Ryan said that there will not be enough threads to cover all your equipment. I would disagree there... That is if we take into account that our inventory will be empty. Which will not always be the case. We will be risking our equipment, our lives, and our reputation to be bandits.
I also disagree in that, I would expect that we are actively hunted.
I would think, and yes its my opinion, that you are correct in that we will be on the receiving end of the nerf stick for quite a while. Granted I think its for different reasons. Usually the nerf stick is used when there is excessive complaining about something, or when something is used excessively. If there is an army of bandits running around in every corner of the river kingdoms, it will get nerfed. I dont think that will be the case. I do think that no matter how successful we are, very or poorly, there will be excessive complaining on the boards. Hell, the game isnt even out and there is talk about how in favor the game is towards bandits.
I do not think we will be as successful as you do.